posted
I am an abx virgin. I've never taken any for my lyme in the 7 years that I've had it.
Through alternative therapies, I feel like I've gotten my pathogen load (lyme, co's, and viruses) under control.
I've been working a full-time job for the past year and I'm fairly functional, although not 100% by any means.
I truly feel that the only things holding me back from complete wellness are the gut issues, namely parasites and candida, which have also cause genito-urinary problems.
I told this to my doc. He's not an LLMD, although he has his own lyme protocol that consists of antivirals and oral abx. I don't think he's gotten anyone permanently well on it; just the improvements followed by relapses. He's been supportive of me and has not forced his pharma approach. He's just monitored my overall progress and given me what I've asked for, for the most part.
Anyway, I told him that I wanted to solve these remaining gut issues.
He wants to put me on Flagyl and Diflucan, alternating them.
I know that Flagyl has helped a lot of people, and elicited a major positive turning point for many. I like the fact that it kills the borrelia cysts.
The problem is, I don't want to go on abx, because they are what cause gut issues, not cure them. They suck the oxygen out of the gut, and lack of oxygen is what kills the friendly bacteria and allows the bad bacteria to thrive. And frankly, I'm not sure that I need it. I don't think I need to kill cysts, because my alternative therapy does that.
The doc is espousing the theory that the Diflucan will kill the candida in the gut and the Flagyl will kill all the other bad bugs which help candida survive in the midst of taking Diflucan. Then take probiotics afterwards to replace the good bugs. I'm not crazy about that whole idea.
I'm thinking it might be a better if I'm going to go to the dark side (pharmaceuticals) it might make more sense to take an antiparasitic (Ivermectin or others) and get the candida under control with CS, food grade hydrogen peroxide, and probiotics.
Besides, if the candida is in the gut, don't the LLMDs use Nystatin for that?
I'd like to hear the board's opinions on that. Has anyone taken Flagyl and regretted it? What dosages are safe? THX!
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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Summer3
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 35286
posted
I was 100% against antibiotics (and all meds) for a long time. Now I'm on a lot of oral antibiotics. I avoided Flagyl for over a year because I was very concerned about the level of herxing to expect from it along with the cancer and neuropathy risks.
I take 750mg daily. I don't pulse it. At first it was tough, but in my 2nd week I had a tremendous amount of improvement. I RARELY get that. I like Flagyl. I'm no longer worried about it and I don't regret taking it. I make sure to take extra b6 and do methylcobalamin shots while on it.
That being said, after the 2nd week, I went back to my stagnant level. It did not improve things for me quickly or long-term (yet). I've taken it for a few months.
I have taken Nystatin and personally, it doesn't work well for me. If Diflucan was covered and I didn't have issues with liver enzymes I'd much prefer Diflucan to Nystatin.
Razzle
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 30398
posted
There are herbal approaches for Candida, too. Search on here for the many threads dealing with it.
For me, flagyl has been wonderful. I have been on it for 1 1/2 years, plus Andrographis. This is the best protocol I've been on, have seen the most improvements on this protocol despite having been on IV abx prior to the flagyl.
But I agree with you - why go there if you don't believe you need to? So yes, anti-parasitics could well be the better way to go for you.
-------------------- -Razzle Lyme IgM IGeneX Pos. 18+++, 23-25+, 30++, 31+, 34++, 39 IND, 83-93 IND; IgG IGeneX Neg. 30+, 39 IND; Mayo/CDC Pos. IgM 23+, 39+; IgG Mayo/CDC Neg. band 41+; Bart. (clinical dx; Fry Labs neg. for all coinfections), sx >30 yrs. Posts: 4166 | From WA | Registered: Feb 2011
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posted
LT, why would you not take it without something else?
What are we trying to do here, KILL the liver?
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
I've been treating for 3 months. Flagle and Diflucan on the weekends. I have not herxed from these (the doxy seems to be my herxer during the week!) All the gut issues I've had for 40 yrs are finally under control!!!!
I don't know which antibiotic did it, but one of the 4, or the combination of some has changed my life drastically for the good!!!
Doc wants to change protocol now - scares me, I'm doing so good on what I'm on I'm afraid to change now. But I think we're going to move to naturals. Appt tomorrow, will know more then.
Posts: 250 | From East Coast | Registered: Jan 2013
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Tammy N.
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 26835
posted
Hey Chaps. Long time, no talk.
I like this paragraph of yours -- "I'm thinking it might be a better if I'm going to go to the dark side (pharmaceuticals) it might make more sense to take an antiparasitic (Ivermectin or others) and get the candida under control with CS, food grade hydrogen peroxide, and probiotics."
I would give this route a chance first and hold off on the Flagyl. Flagyl will always be there. I would try to knock out the parasites and rebuild the gut first. Ivermectin is a really good broad-spectrum antiparasitic. I feel really good on it, as does most people I know.
Flagyl hits parasites. I've often wondered if people get better on it not because of it's action against the cyst form of Lyme, but maybe because it is killing parasites (unbeknownst to them)??
After hearing luvema's story, now it makes me more concerned about trying Flagyl. Although I understand her reaction is rare. And maybe her problem is something else altogether, but the symptoms coincidently happened after taking Flagyl.
Wishing you all the best:)
Posts: 2238 | From East Coast | Registered: Jul 2010
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posted
I found out from someone I know today that Flagyl is not only a cyst-busting antibiotic, but also an anthelmintic-type anti-parasitic a la Ivermectin.
I recall Wild Condor on here telling that Flagyl (and she took really high doses) was her turning point to wellness. She even referred to it as her "beloved Flagyl."
It's unsettling that luvema is having the reaction that she is, but everyone is so different. It would be worth looking into how common occurrences such as hers have happened and then weigh the risks. And what happened to her is so recent that we can't yet see if this is going to resolve, or whether it can be fairly correlated to the Flagyl.
I really don't know what to make of her situation. For me, I've never had heavy neuro symptoms. For neuro-lyme, I've heard that Rulide (if you can get your hands on some from abroad since it's not sold in the U.S.) is the best thing.
Did she try taking the Benadryl as docluddite suggested?
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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posted
Hey Tammy, long time. Haven't been here in a while. I've been working full-time for over a year. Not much time to surf.
Been doing the alternative stuff with enough success to stay reasonable functional, but still seeking total wellness.
My gut is probably the main problem.
Right now, I'm thinking maybe I should just go for a DMSA challenge and see if metals are causing the favorable terrain in the gut for the parasites and candida.
Perhaps chelation, followed by the natural stuff is the answer, such as Salt/C for the parasites and CS for the candida along with food-grade hydrogen peroxide to get the oxygen back into the gut. Colonics, enemas, and ozone insufflations, too.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I took 1,500 mg of Flagyl daily a few weeks ago for a stomach issue I caught. I didn't react much to it, BUT I guarantee you if I have Lyme, it's not 'over'. I wouldn't live by this theory of no herxing on Flagyl - no Lyme. lol.
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: The only time I used it alone was when I was nearly finished with treatment. It was a test to see if I was REALLY finished.
No response; then you're finished. I took high doses and did not herx.
Chaps, I just have read that flagyl is best when PAIRED with something else.
Now I'm a bit afraid of it. I took it two years ago for intestinal problems and it caused nerve pain in my feet and legs.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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posted
The cycle I was on for about fourteen months was continuous doxy with alternating biaxin and metronidazole (flagyl) every two weeks.
I think the metro dose was 500mg two x daily. By the end I felt great.
My wife was on the same routine and had the same results. Just keep taking the supplements and pbx, about half way through we began an enzyme to attack the biofilms.
My LLMD said that she would average about half or more patients returning after six months without the biofilm treatment, since she started doing it only one other than me.
I had two strains of lyme and had to stop treatment early due to liver toxicity, my wife did not have this issue. I had two knee surgeries during this time with narcotic pain killers that contained high doses of acetominophin.
I was also bitten again about two months after stopping treatment, so I could've been reinfected.
I would highly recommend that you get an LLMD and treat with the abx in addition to the herbal stuff. They should moniter you closely and have just about monthly tests for liver toxicity and such, as well as checking for signs of yeast overgrowth.
I'm not any type of medical professional, that is just my opinion based on my experience. I really wish you the best and hope that whatever you decide to do gets your life back to what it was before lyme.
Posts: 80 | From US | Registered: Aug 2011
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CherylSue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13077
posted
Bleed Green, what was the biofilm enzyme treatment that gave you success? The Flagyl wasn't enough?
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
Never had flagyl, but had tindamax. Given your situation and desires, I think I'd go the dark side of the antiparasitics first and see where that leads you.
I'll warn you though, even those have caused major need for probiotics and Saccharomyces boulardii (both anti-yeast, if you will). Killing the parasites unloads plenty to deal with and will very likely make your gut situation much worse in the beginning, but then much better after you make it through.
[ 04-17-2013, 11:41 AM: Message edited by: MichaelTampa ]
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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quote: Killing the parasites unloads plenty to deal with and will very likely make your gut situation much worse in the beginning, but then much worse after you make it through.
Michael, did you mean to say, "much BETTER after you make it through?"
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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MichaelTampa
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 24868
posted
quote:Originally posted by chaps:
quote: Killing the parasites unloads plenty to deal with and will very likely make your gut situation much worse in the beginning, but then much worse after you make it through.
Michael, did you mean to say, "much BETTER after you make it through?"
Yes, I sure did mean BETTER afterward. I've edited the post, so for those reading this thread later, you won't have noticed that as I fixed it.
Posts: 1927 | From se usa | Registered: Mar 2010
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posted
I think my spirochete load is pretty low right now. I used the Doug Coil for 5 minutes on the abdomen the other night and got nothing in the way of a herx. NOTHING.
So it might be a good time for me to take a cyst buster to finish it off. Plus Flagyl is an anthelmintic too, so it's killing two birds with one stone.
-------------------- -chaps �Listen to the bell, Borrelia. It tolls for thee!� Posts: 631 | From A little place called, "we'll see." | Registered: Apr 2010
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