oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
Many including me got sick immediately (within 2 weeks) of tickbite. Bullseye rash, fever, stiff neck, and then progressive symptoms in spite of antibiotic treatment. I assume I had an invasive nasty strain.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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Lymedin2010
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posted
"TF, I call three years of exposure to mold a stressor. It's a stressor to the already failing immune system."
You took the words right out of my mouth. Yes, it is understood that is not an external visible stressor, but most definitely biological & immunological one. There are many as we now know, bacterial, viral, chemical,genetic....etc.
What a coincidence TF, I just sent out my urine to be tested for mold today. I have a gut feeling it will be sky high. I was shocked to see black mold growing in my sons bedroom windows & there has always been trace amounts in the bathroom. God only knows about the basement/ground level, although I have never seen it there.
Posts: 2094 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
HIV is hard to catch through heterosexual transmission. I would think that Lyme is hard to catch this way too.
It takes about 1,000 heterosexual contacts with an HIV +ve partner to result in one infection. Except in Africa, where it plummets to 3 contacts.
What seems to be important is the presence of a wound or broken skin in the recipient, giving microbes a way to enter the bloodstream. A bad yeast infection may do it.
I hope this finding contributes to the demise of the denialists. Yes, it's one more thing to monitor. But we've known that this is a possibility for a long time.
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canbravelyme
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Member # 9785
posted
HIV is a virus, and Lyme a spirochetal bacteria. Very different. I think I'll start following the guidelines for Syphilis, and stop worrying about whether I might give it to someone if I share their drink.
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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Lymedin2010
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posted
"HIV is a virus, and Lyme a spirochetal bacteria. Very different. I think I'll start following the guidelines for Syphilis, and stop worrying about whether I might give it to someone if I share their drink."
HIV is a virus. Borrelia is a bacteria, BUT it can live in many stages & one of the stages behaves like a virus.
One of the stage is almost just like a virus. It is basically a shell with just DNA or RNA, a packet if you will & is a very small form. It then hatches & becomes a new borrelia.
If the "i" is a small spirochete, then the dot on the eye is the bleb. A spirochete can be the same length of a red blood cell (rbc). It can be as long as 4-5 lengths of rbc's. A few hundred blebs (virus like forms) can fit across a RBC.
Posts: 2094 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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posted
If Lyme disease would be only Borrelia it would be sooo much easier, but unfortunately Lyme is a pathogenic soup of bacterias, protozoaa, micoplasmas, viruses, parasitic worms, etc….
I got Lyme from my husband, so yes, it can be transmitted sexually.
The following information comes from DR. K. slides posted on his academy website. The slides are from 2010:
Lyme transmission
• Mosquitos , fleas, stinging flies (horse flies), spider bites • ticks • Blood transfusions • Sexual intercourse • Trans-placental transfer to the fetus • Breast feeding • Food • Saliva (kissing), contaminated utensils and telephones
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Lymedin2010
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posted
I love the fact that a DOCTOR compiled that list. Do you have any references or copies of the slide, I would love to have that on hand as being admitted by a Dr.
I have had flaky skin on my beard that comes & goes throughout the years. After some parasitic meds this past summer my red face rashes & skin shedding has hit me in a whole other level. It comes & goes and is weird.
I am willing to bet anything that I am constantly shedding spirochete blebs & that all it will take is someone to respire it & to lodge in their passageways. What happens there after is the same role the dice game you play when getting bit by an insect.
My wife just reported a guy couple in her hospital. The person admitted has MS, among other complications. Makes you wonder?
Posts: 2094 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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canbravelyme
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posted
Great. Now I'll be doing all my kissing with a dental dam :/
Too bad I'm not into latex; sounds like I need a full body suit
Dr. S. told me once there was a mouse study -- two female mice in a cage; one with Lyme, one without -- X amount of time later -- both mice had Lyme.
-------------------- For medical advice related to Lyme disease, please see an ILADS physician. Posts: 1494 | From Getting there... | Registered: Aug 2006
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TF
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Member # 14183
posted
Just remember that mice do a lot of things that humans don't normally do. For example, lick each other's rear ends numerous times per day, bite each other, root in each other's excrement, taste each other's urine, etc.
And, they NEVER wash their hands, or eat from separate bowls, or use soap, or clean their wounds with antiseptic or anything, or take a shower, or flush their urine or feces down the toilet.
So when 2 mice live together in a cage, whatever one has the other will likely get it if it can be transmitted through blood or bodily fluids. That definitely includes lyme disease.
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CherylSue
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posted
Dr. K also discusses urine therapy for Lyme. You don't want to know what that is really. Personally, I take what he says with a grain of salt.
There needs to be clinical studies on this. At best we can say sexual activity is suspicious for Lyme transmission. It hasn't been proven.
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Well actually I lnow what urine therapy is. Urine therapy has been used in Europe for ages and have been proven to be effective when abx failed.
Thinking outside of the box helps!!!
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Lymedin2010
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posted
"Dr. S. told me once there was a mouse study -- two female mice in a cage; one with Lyme, one without -- X amount of time later -- both mice had Lyme."
Experimental inoculation of dogs with Borrelia burgdorferi. Burgess EC. Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg A 1986 Dec; 263(1-2): 49-54 PMID: 3554844 To determine if dogs could serve as a reservoir for Borrelia burgdorferi, three beagles were inoculated subcutaneously (SQ) with 200 laboratory cultured spirochetes which were originally isolated from blood of a Peromyscus leucopus from Ft. McCoy, Wisc. One four month old beagle was inoculated SQ with 5 ground Ixodes dammini from Shelter Island, N.Y. which came from an area with a 50% B. burgdorferi tick infection rate; and another uninfected four month old beagle was housed loose on the floor with the tick inoculated dog. All three spirochete inoculated beagles developed IFA antibody titers to B. burgdorferi of (7 log2) to (8 log2) by day 28 post inoculation. All were apparently healthy and no spirochetes were cultured from the blood. In an attempt to exacerbate the disease two of the dogs were given 3 mg of dexamethasone on day 68 post inoculation. B. burgdorferi was isolated from blood of all these dogs on days 4 and 97 days post inoculation. The tick inoculated dog developed a B. burgdorferi IFA antibody titer of (10 log2) by day 14 post inoculation. The contact exposed dog also developed a B. burgdorferi IFA antibody titer of (7 log2) on post contact day 21 indicating contact infection. B. burgdorferi was not isolated from either of these dogs. These results indicate that, contact transmission of B. burgdorferi may occur between dogs, dogs can be subclinically infected with B. burgdorferi and have persistent infections.
Clinical and serologic evaluations of induced Borrelia burgdorferi infection in dogs. Greene RT, Levine JF, Breitschwerdt EB, Walker RL, Berkhoff HA, Cullen J, Nicholson WL. Am J Vet Res 1988 Jun; 49(6): 752-7 PMID: 3041881 Adult Beagles were used to evaluate clinical signs and serologic response after inoculation with, or exposure to, Borrelia burgdorferi. An indirect immunofluorescent assay (IFA) and 2 ELISA were used to monitor the serologic response to B burgdorferi. Feeding infected ticks on 4 dogs (group 1) failed to cause seroconversion, and SC inoculation with 500 organisms caused minimal seroconversion in 2 of 4 dogs (group 2). At 56 days, approximately 3.01 X 10(8) B burgdorferi organisms were injected IV into group-1 dogs, and intraperitoneally into group-2 dogs. A control group of 4 dogs (group 3) had noninfected ticks feed on them, and then were given IV injection of physiologic saline solution. Increases in immunoglobulin M (IgM) titers were detected in 2 of 4 group-2 dogs approximately 7 days after the initial exposure. These titers returned to negligible values 20 days later. Immunoglobulin G titers increased approximately 10 days after the initial exposure and were mildly increased 56 days later, when dogs were exposed a second time. Both the IV and intraperitoneal injections (second exposures) resulted in increased IgM titers, which in both groups eventually returned to preexposure values after approximately 2 months. Immunoglobulin G titers increased within a week after the second exposure, and in 3 dogs monitored for 8 months, returned to negligible values after the 8-month period. One control dog had a slightly increased IgG titer 24 days after the second inoculation. The possibility of urine transmission is suggested. Clinical status, hemograms, serum biochemical profiles, ECG and results of urinalyses remained normal throughout the study.(ABSTRACT TRUNCATED AT 250 WORDS)
The prevalence and significance of Borrelia burgdorferi in the urine of feral reservoir hosts. Bosler EM, Schulze TL. Zentralbl Bakteriol Mikrobiol Hyg A 1986 Dec; 263(1-2): 40-4 PMID: 3577491 Live Borrelia burgdorferi were isolated from the blood and/or urine of white-footed mice (Peromyscus leucopus) collected on Shelter Island, New York, in 1984 and 1985. Prevalence of spirochetes in urine was consistently higher than in blood or both fluids simultaneously. Spirochetes remained viable for 18-24 hours in urine and were maintained in culture for one week. Mice removed from the field were spirocheturic for at least 13 months. One spirocheturic mouse developed spirochetemia one month after field removal indicating the pathogen can return to the peripheral circulation. Twenty-one kidneys from 22 mice had spirochetes in the interstitial areas and bridging the tubules. A positive correlation between Babesia microti infection and spirocheturia was seen. Although the mechanism of entry into the urine is unknown, B. microti infection may increase glomerular permeability. Babesia induced hematuria may provide possible nutrients to maintain spirochetes. Urine may provide a method for contact non-tick transmission of B. burgdorferi in natural rodent populations particularly during periods of nesting and/or breeding.
Transmission by MILK or food?
Most spirochetes (and other bacteria) ingested will probably be killed by the high acidic content in the stomach, but people with achlorhydria and newborns that have very low stomach acid production, does not have this protective barrier and might be at increased risk for getting infected by the oral route, if they ingest live spirochetes. Pasteurizing the milk and never eat semi-raw meat - must be recommended as prophylaxis.
Experimental inoculation of Peromyscus spp. with Borrelia burgdorferi: evidence of contact transmission. Burgess EC, Amundson TE, Davis JP, Kaslow RA, Edelman R. Am J Trop Med Hyg. 1986 Mar;35(2):355-9. PMID: 3513648 In order to determine if Peromyscus spp. could become infected with the Lyme disease spirochete (Borrelia burgdorferi) by direct inoculation and to determine the duration of spirochetemia, 4 P. leucopus and 5 P. maniculatus were inoculated by the intramuscular, intraperitoneal, and subcutaneous routes with an isolate of B. burgdorferi obtained from the blood of a trapped wild P. leucopus from Camp McCoy, Wisconsin. All of the mice developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi which reached a peak indirect immunofluorescent (IFA) geometric mean antibody titer of 10 log2 21 days post-inoculation. B burgdorferi was recovered from the blood of 1 P. maniculatus 21 days post-inoculation. One uninfected Peromyscus of each species was housed in the same cage with the infected Peromyscus as a contact control. Both of the contact controls developed IFA B. burgdorferi antibodies by day 14, indicating contact infection. To determine if B. burgdorferi was being transmitted by direct contact, 5 uninfected P. leucopus and 5 uninfected P. maniculatus were caged with 3 B. burgdorferi infected P. leucopus and 3 infected P. maniculatus, respectively. Each of these contact-exposed P. leucopus and P. maniculatus developed antibodies to B. burgdorferi, and B. burgdorferi was isolated from the blood of 1 contact-exposed P. maniculatus 42 days post-initial contact. These findings show that B. burgdorferi can be transmitted by direct contact without an arthropod vector.
Borrelia burgdorferi infection in Wisconsin horses and cows. Burgess EC. Ann N Y Acad Sci 1988; 539: 235-43 PMID: 3190095 Blood samples from Wisconsin horses and cows suspected of having clinical disease due to Borrelia burgdorferi infection were submitted by veterinary practitioners. All serum, milk, colostrum, and synovial samples were tested for B. burgdorferi antibodies by immunofluorescence. Whole blood, milk, colostrum, and synovial fluid samples were cultured for B. burgdorferi. Records were kept on the clinical signs of antibody-positive animals, date of sample, and location of the animal by county. Of the samples tested for antibodies 282/430 cow sera, 118/190 horse sera, 5/10 cow synovial fluids, 3/6 horse synovial fluids, 2/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk samples and 1 aborted fetus serum were antibody positive at a titer of 1:128 or greater. Of samples cultured 7/156 cow bloods, 2/35 horse bloods, 1/14 cow synovial fluids, 0/4 synovial fluids, 1/3 cow colostrums, 0/44 cow milk, and 2/10 cow urine samples were B. burgdorferi culture positive. For both cows and horses October and May were the two peak months for the number of antibody-positive samples. The most frequent clinical signs in antibody-positive horses and cows were lameness and swollen joints, but many also had stiffness, laminitis, abortions, and fevers. Not all antibody-positive animals showed clinical signs. These findings show that B. burgdorferi infection occurs in horses and cows and can cause clinical illness in some but not all animals. Infection in cows and horses occurs most frequently 1 month after the emergence of adult I. dammini. Because spirochetes could be isolated from blood, synovial fluid, colostrum, and urine, these animals could be important in providing an infected blood meal for ticks and bringing B. burgdorferi in direct contact with humans.
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beaches
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posted
No doubt in my mind that Lyme/cos can be passed on via sex.
We already know Lyme/cos can be passed via breast milk and women with LD give birth to congential LD babies.
So what's the surprise here? Nothing for me.
Take precautions when you're of childbearing age. If you want to have children and you have a history of LD, do your research and take what you have to take to bring a healthy baby into this world.
If you're beyond those years with a healthy spouse, just enjoy life. That's all I'm going to say.
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Lymedin2010
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posted
This report & video on transmission is too good to pass.
That douche, Gary Wormser, speaks out on this too.
posted
What about through perspiration? I am thinking about a one person portable sauna being shared.
Posts: 764 | From Northwest | Registered: Sep 2014
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posted
My question is, how common is it for Spirochetes to be found in your secretions? They can't even find any in my blood so I am having a hard time imagining giving it to my partner.
I always assumed it was safe, because it figured it was in your blood, or in your joints,CNS system. I would need to see more studies to show that it can actually live in the vagina and reproduce there.
I was always under the impression that it was transmitted via blood (tick bite) and from there over time, disseminates into the body. Hanging out in the mucous membranes didn't seem like a likely spot.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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Lymedin2010
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posted
There have been studies where mice & dogs have been placed in the same vicinity & to at end one gave the other Lyme.
Spirochete blebs & cysts might get trapped in the skin & have been found in skin lesions...etc. I believe if there are large quantities in the blood, then you may be shedding them.
You cannot get it through contact, unless the fluid of one individual goes to the fluid of another (mouth, eyes, privates, & open wounds). Sometimes they can be respired in the lungs.
There is one anecdotal report of a Lyme infected woman crying on a man & the man subsequently developed Lyme within weeks. He is not too sure how exactly he got it, but he was absolutely vehement about getting it from this person. I drilled him well & I believe him. If I can find the link, I will post it.
Posts: 2094 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Maia my llmd told me if i was on tx-even just doxy ketes in blood and body fluids would not be able to spread thru body fluids
I dont know how true it is but dr j knows how much abx to give pregnant woman so it diesnt pass thru placenta or thru breast milk
The abx dont easily get ketes that are deeper in tendons, cartilage, eyes etc. But in fluids they do
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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Judie
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Member # 38323
posted
I like this person's analysis of the studies:
Part 1: Sexual Transmission Of Lyme Disease - Is There Evidence?
Lymedin2010
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Member # 34322
posted
Very good read, thanks.
From the mounting evidence of the spirochetes being present in the blood (within the RBC's mostly), it is quite easy to see how it can reach any part of the human body & how it can be sexually transferred.
The amount of the bacteria in the blood is all individually based, with some people showing little to no symptoms with widespread blood infection. This probably has to do with how efficiently they are able to filter out toxins, which can all change given time & continued damage from ongoing infection.
The spirochetes do not necessarily have to THRIVE in any particular tissue or infected area, they only need to SURVIVE in order to potentially re-infect outside the body. Cysts & blebs can potentially survive many different tissues, liquids, & solutions.
Given all the evidence of individuals harboring the bacteria for years at times and not showing any symptoms, we should be able to see how easily cross contact infection (via body fluid) can have an even longer latency period. Sexual transfer may not include all of the co-infections from the original partner & tick bite.
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GretaM
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posted
I was reading a new publication from another LLMD, and this doc cited the studies, and also discussed in his experience with patients, it IS sexually transmitted between couples.
BUT, he will not treat anyone who does not have symptoms of lyme.
The theory is that it is probably quite common to transmit between couples, but only one has an immune system that cannot keep up. The other's immune system can keep lyme in check.
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Lymedin2010
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Member # 34322
posted
Thanks GretaM. Do you have a link to the publication?
Here is a nice link that talks about fibro/Lyme connection & it also mentions Burrascano's new blood culture test. So if he is looking towards the blood to indicate infection, you can buy a clue as to how easily it can spread sexually. Especially if it is systemically found in the blood plasma!!!!
I almost want to go back & check on my previous girlfriends, but I don't initiate this out of respect for my wife.
canefan17
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Member # 22149
posted
Sorry if already asked. But my questions pertains to this and pregnancy. My girlfriend and I are planning on having kids soon and so we'll be talking with my LLMD of course... but is it wise for the girl to get on abxs (as well as me) if we're trying to have a kid?
My LLMD did say his daughter took abxs during her pregnancy.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Lymedin2010
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 34322
posted
Always good to listen to your LLMD, but I am sure not all of them are willing to prescribe for pregnancy.
Does your GF have/had Lyme? From the LLMD stories I have heard, it is beneficial for the mother to take ABX if she has or had Lyme.
I think the lady in Under Our Skin had Lyme & then she had no more symptoms, yet she still carried the bacteria & passed it unto her son.
Personally, I just could not get myself to have another if that was even an option because of Lyme. Mandy Hughes from Under Our Skin (the blonde) stated that she will not have children because of her Lyme exposure & this is besides how much better she looks.
Always talk to your LLMD about this & obviously make informed decisions. Best of luck!!!
Posts: 2094 | From NY | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lymedin2010
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Lymedin2010
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Member # 34322
posted
We all trust our famous Lyme researcher & fellow x-Lymie, Dr. Eva Sapi...right? I know I do & I would heed what she has to say about sexual transmission.
Boy, I can't wait for the next set of studies that may show actual contact transmission, as in from tears & from the shedding of our skin. Scrape off some skin from someone who is highly infected with many symptoms & you should be able to grow your own spirochetes.
"spirochetes were observed in cultures of genital secretions from 11 of 13 subjects diagnosed with Lyme disease, and motile spirochetes were detected in genital culture concentrates from 12 of 13 Lyme disease patients using light and darkfield microscopy."
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