Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Bear with me...the following explains HOW this works.
I'm pretty sure the enzyme in the Western Fence Lizard which can destroy all forms of Bb in ticks feeding on that UNIQUE *blue* bellied lizard (with lots of eye RODS - rhodopsin and succinate dehydrogenase) at night is this enzyme:
Succinate dehydrogenase.
The following link indicates the location of rhodopsin and succinate dehydrogenase in that lizard's numerous eye RODS (has to be able to see in low light...no need to see in "color" - has to be able to pick up any available LIGHT):
Succinate dehydrogenase may well be upregulated in biofilms...later - when Bb establishes a "community" and relies on "Quorum sensing" to signal when the "time is right".
When NADH is oxidized via HBOT, the hydrogen ***loses an electron to ubiquinone*** and all that remains is the nucleus and a PROTON in hydrogen to function as a proton pump "helper".
"In HBOT NADH is *oxidized* in parallel to the HbO2 increase."
If you are catching on, you will realize the WFL has an enzyme that removes H from NADH as does HBOT. The electron in hydrogen that is removed is transported to ubiquinone...
PROVIDED there is sufficient ubiquinone present - which needs several nutrients (all the Bs and some trace minerals to be made) - heads up those with MTHFR problems.
There are other ways too...Hypericin (IV) plus a yellow laser light works also - in a different (more complex) way, but DOES WORK!
The point is: healing, curing, lyme disease IS POSSIBLE and is cost effective...
VERY.
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poppy
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posted
Catching on? Fat chance.
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Marnie
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posted
Nice. "Fat chance" you can understand or "Fat chance" insurance will cover?
So you don't get this?:
"the WFL has an enzyme that removes H from NADH
as does
HBOT"
And Bb NEEDS NADH.
That hydrogen (oxidized) is then used by the powerhouses of our cells (called mitochondria) to help ubiquinone (oxidized CoQ10 component) convert to the ANTI-oxidant,
ubiquinOL which has 2 more hydrogens than ubiquinone.
In lyme it is very likely one is deficient in ubiquinone which impacts the cells' ability to transfer 2 hydrogens and MAKE the anti-oxidant ubiquinol.
The first reaction (ubiquinone) happens in what is called mitochondrial complex I, the conversion to ubiquinol happens in mitochondrial complex III.
This is messed up in HIV too!
Bb would rather IMPORT Na,K ...via it's Na,K ATPase and EXPORT H OUT.
This is called REVERSE transport.
I'm working on other less expensive alternatives to healing which DO exist.
I don't know if it would work, but you could TRY UbiquinOL.
It is KNOWN to help those with cardiac problems and those with autism (very current research).
It maybe a "work-around".
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poppy
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Both, not likely I would understand and also not likely that insurance would cover.
Making a stab at it. Are you saying ubiquinol would be a substitute for HBOT and the western fence lizard enzyme? A lot of us are taking CoQ10, which is ubiquinone.
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Marnie
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posted
CoQ10 supplements (even in high doses) did not work for cardiac patients, but ubiquinol DID. Link will be provided.
It is obvious to me that those persons had "mitochondrial dysfunction" and couldn't convert the 1st 2 components in CoQ10 to the last one which IS
UbiquinOL...the anti-oxidant.
First of all, I think lyme patients are low in the 1st component (fully oxidized CoQ10 with less hydrogen) and this -> inability to make the anti-oxidant form which has 2 extra hydrogens = ubiquinOL.
IMO...sure worth a shot...be sure to get a good form of UbiquinOL (Life Extension?)
It is a lot cheaper than MitoQ which is ubiquinone attached to a carrier that FUNCTIONS LIKE, but is not, phosphatidylcholine (one of Bb's proteins!)to "ramp up" the powerhouses.
Quinone needs a phospholipid carrier to go into and power-up the mitochondria.
Follow?
I suspect when Bb in the tick "senses" the presence of niacinamide (a metabolite of niacin)in the blood of the "victim", it says "YEA...a source of NAD!" and upregulates OspC accordingly (as opposed to temperature - indoles steady/constant at 98.6 degrees F) impacting OspC upreguation).
Bb absolutely needs the metabolites of tryptophan!
NAD and NADH.
I think Bb is doing this:
NADH <-> NAD. Keep in mind, Bb is not a strict anaerobe (needs NO oxygen), Bb needs SOME oxygen (likely to oxidize the "H" in NADH)
but HBOT triggers just this:
NADH -> NAD.
Not a healthy situation for Bb who needs NADH and NAD.
Bb lacks the electron transport chain that WE have in our mitochondria to generate ATP. Electrons going from one complex to another to another...
It is messing with OUR generation of ATP in our mitochondria.
Bb wants the cells to remain "living" so it can rob them of nutrients it needs.
It can even live in HeLa cells (immortal cancer cells where there is a lot of DNA damage and replication happens out of control and where a lot of glucose is available that can convert to mannose (a similar "sugar").
That p8 protein that Bb picks up in the tick's saliva is a mannose binding lectin inhibitor.
Bb doesn't want "us" to know it uses THAT "sugar".
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poppy
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I guess you know that lymed people who have tried HBOT do seem to improve, but it is not lasting. And expensive.
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Abxnomore
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Yes, that is true and has been for many years.
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Marnie
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posted
Wildcondor (young woman on this website years ago) recovered using HBOT
AND
I believe, IV abx.
If I remember correctly, it took her something like 40 "dives".
She did have MAJOR "Herx" responses -> sepsis, twice, I recall...requiring hospitalization.
Too much of a good thing all at once isn't good.
Abx are KNOWN to reduce inflammation bigtime and halt the MMPs - metalloproteinases i.e., enzymes that cleave/chop apart proteins. Doxy:
There is a doc here who says it is nec. to combine HBOT with Pycnogenol (1 mg per pound of body weight per day).So if you weigh 150 pounds, you'd need 150mg per day.
And Pycnogenol isn't cheap either.
I "get" the cost issue...which is why I think insurance should cover.
So...if the way it works is COMBINING HBOT with things that reduce inflammation AND inhibit MMPs...
Glycox does the same....and more (impacting L-forms). It would be MY first choice.
Here are a couple of links that explain Pycnogenol's functions:
I think this (healing) is a 2 step process...much like some Rx's combine steroids (anti-inflammatory) with abx. (like certain ear drops, etc.)
And like the Romanian docs who cured early onset lyme by restoring very low levels of Mg (anti-histamine, anti-inflammatory, HMG CoA reductase inhibitor) AND giving IV abx.
As far as what MIGHT work the fastest and ultimately be most cost effective, it APPEARS hypericin (IV) and the yellow laser treatment just may work with the fewest number of treatments for SEVERAL diseases.
But since that therapy is just in its "infancy", we need to look at current therapies more readily available and modify, add to them, if needed.
Back to Ubiquinol. While it is unlikely to go into the mitochondria of the infected cells (like MitoQ does), it may help protect the cysosol DNA from excessive ROS damage and protect "bystander" cells also.
We make new stem cells all the time, but I suspect massive inflammation and excessive ROS impact them negatively.
Abxnomore...what do you feel is the best and safest treatment (that is currently available) to cure chronic lyme - if it exists and is not "merely" an autoimmune reaction to Hsp90:
When there is a ubiquinone deficiency which is involved with complex I...
The body will try to find a work-around.
BTW...it appears the DOSAGE of MitoQ (how MUCH you take) matters.
Supposedly the Russian form is even more powerful. It is called SkQ.
CoQ10 is "already made" in some foods we eat, but in VERY small amts. We need several nutrients to MAKE it...including all the Bs and some trace minerals....heads up those with MTHFR gene problems...folic acid is B9.
[ 08-11-2014, 10:55 AM: Message edited by: Marnie ]
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Phoiph
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quote:Originally posted by poppy: I guess you know that lymed people who have tried HBOT do seem to improve, but it is not lasting. And expensive.
Poppy:
I am 100% well from mHBOT. You have to do mild pressure over an extended period, and this is not the typical protocol, unfortunately. Others are improving as well (many more not on LymeNet).
Abxnomore
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Member # 18936
posted
True but Marnie is speaking of traditional HBO, I believe.
Wild Condor did something like eight years of aggressive ABX and co-infection therapy both IV and high dose oral combos and traditional HBO therapy. It's really hard to say just how much a of role traditional HBO played in her recovery.
Many others did as much traditional HBO therapy as she, if not more. They had gains and lost them.
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Phoiph
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I agree...based on the research I have done over the last few years, traditional, high pressure, short term HBOT has not been effective for Lyme.
Research has shown that mild pressures are more effective and safer for most neurological conditions and many chronic illnesses, as was true in my case.
My point is that dosage and protocol is everything, and attention/awareness needs to shift to what works, rather then what has traditionally failed, especially when seeking insurance coverage for a treatment.
This is why I keep advocating for mild hyperbaric every chance I get...to try to raise awareness of this crucial distinction...
Abxnomore
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posted
I totally agree with you. I've know many people who did tons of traditional HBO therapy, I myself did a good bit of it, only to lose ground with time.
There's no proof that traditional HBO helped Wild Condor recover. Would she have recovered after almost eight years of intensive high dose IV ABX of many different types and high dose oral combos along with tons of flagyl without traditional HBO?
No one can answer that question for sure. It was the thing to do back in those days and those who could afford it tried it but there is no evidence that it showed any long term promise.
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CD57
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11749
posted
Marnie, could you please study bartonella as it relates to HBOT and give us your thoughts?
I feel like borrelia gets *all* the attention in in many people's experience is not even the toughest bug. Bartonella is the toughest because nothing outright kills it, it doesn't go dormant, and it replicates much faster. Also it is intracellular.
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