Jordana
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posted
I've been taking liposomal artemisinin and feeling pretty awful; last night was my third dose of one teaspoon of Quicksilver Liposomal Art.
Fell asleep, for 14 hours, woke up with a horrible migraine that receded pretty slowly, felt like I'd been hit in the head with a brick. i needed ice and aspirin, it felt like a hangover log 10.
THEN the stomach stuff, oh my gosh, horrible cramping from the left all the way down, kind of cyclical ( every 20 minutes or so) nausea, heavy sweats, rolls ll the way through, then it passes.
Is this the art?Was this a herx or is this stuff just really that toxic?
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Keebler
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- Well, so much for your summer thrill ride, eh? Hope you are feeling better now.
Some slippery elm might help, or DGL.
Don't mean to sound all doom & gloom yet there are a couple things to consider.
Sounds like it could be appendicitis, even with pain on left (a few folks actually have a left side appendix). You don't mention a fever but one may not be "required" and aspirin might be keeping any fever down, masking it. Do keep an eye on this.
Aspirin seems a major suspect for all but the previous headache. Even one can do that, especially with a tender gut lining. Be sure not to take any more.
Aspirin can cause an ulcer &/or bleeding of the stomach so if you think that might be possible, call the ER about how to determine that if you have more trouble tonight.
I'm not familiar with that brand of artemisinin but one teaspoon for the third dose seems kind of high. I wonder if it might have caused some dehydration to trigger the headache?
The artemisinin brands that I used were not toxic at all. However, the dose amount can clobber if too much, too soon.
The artemisinin might have also really stirred the babesia.
Be sure that you also have another agent on board that also treat babesia as solo treatment can cause babesia to become resistant. In three day's time, not sure it could become so virulent with a solo agent against it but babesia is certainly a rough contender.
Food poisoning also a consideration.
Just some thoughts. Hope you have on hand "triage" care for your stomach lining right now. And hope you are actually asleep with some sweet dreams. -
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Jordana
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Thank you dear.
I have no idea. I decided I'm just off drugs and fancy Lyme tricks for at least 24 hours. I think it was the art but obviously my body wants *nothing* else for a bit.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Tincup
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Hey J...
Seems I keep giving you the same answer in an effort to help, but you don't listen so I won't bother bugging you again with it.
Just know I do care and hope you feel better soon! I do!
Jordana
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posted
TC is the "answer" that I'm treating too aggressively?
I appreciate everyone's feedback here on Lymenet. There are people who say I'm doing too much, and people saying I'm not doing enough.
Of course I'm listening to you. And thanks Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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WPinVA
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Sounds like it could be a herx. Although we are all so different and it's obviously hard to tell, what some people tolerate, others may not.
But yes, it is strong stuff and can certainly induce a big herx. And I'm just talking from my experience with oral, I imagine liposomal is even more powerful.
How about stopping it until things calm down and then starting it again but ramping up more slowly? Or you could start with oral, and then go back to liposomal later after killing off some of it.
Posts: 1737 | From Virginia | Registered: Aug 2011
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posted
Sounds like you're herxing from it. It's pretty powerful stuff, their liposomal encapsulation must be amazingly good as 1 tsp is only 40mg of Artemisinin.
When I was taking it I always noticed that 40 mg of the Quicksilver stuff made me herx more than 300-400 mg of non-liposomal Art. Now that I'm trying to make liposomal stuff myself in an ultrasonic I am still using around 500mg and it's not hitting me that hard. I think home made liposomal is definitely inferior to whatever process they use to encapsulate it.
But considering from what I recall you've been mostly doing abx, this stuff is probably crossing the blood brain barrier far more effectively than anything you've done so far. It also might point to Babesia or another protozoan being a major player if not your main issue.
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Catgirl
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Is this on top of abx? Art is hard even without abx. It does sound like you're herxing hard. You know what I'm going to say (lol), do a coffee enema. You will feel better (cleans out the liver and brain).
-------------------- --Keep an open mind about everything. Also, remember to visit ACTIVISM (we can change things together). Posts: 5418 | From earth | Registered: Mar 2011
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Jordana
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This is herxing too hard, even for me! But the thing that confused me was that it was such a small amount -- exactly, 40mg should have equalled 400 of the regular stuff.
Apparently this is not true,
Every time I try to treat babs except with Buhner herbs I get into big trouble.
Better today, but that was really bad.
I was too wiped out to CE yesterday catgirl but I'll try to get to it today.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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Keebler
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- That may "read" on paper as a low dose yet, for this population, it's really a large amount for just day three, though. Many with TBD must start at very tiny doses. And, as a solo agent against babesia, it's being out of balance can set off a chain reaction.
Artemisinin also stresses the Cytotchrome P-450 liver detox pathway. As that is already stressed for many with lyme [and more so for those with porphyria or similar conditions] this just might not be suited for your liver.
Or the right kind of liver support might not be on board. Detox "events" could also be too strong whereas stable support more a friend.
I know you are wanting to really clobber all this and stake your ground / your body and charge ahead. Just try to soften the approach so the landings aren't so rough & tumble.
The aspirin must be considered as a very likely cause to the trouble last night. Please do not discount that likelihood. Hope you have other things to take next time a headache might hit.
Aspirin is so very dangerous. Truly. Those with TBD often have gut linings that are contraindicated for any aspirin use at all. Ever.
Yet, there is just no way to simplify these kinds of experiences. Truly, it is all things considered. Various skaters in the ice ballet are trying for heavy metal and grunge. Synchronizing is tricky.
Glad you are feeling better today. -
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Keebler
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Topic: will one baby aspirin a day make gastritis worse? - 23 January, 2015
Why Aspirin [even coated baby aspirin] can be so dangerous. -
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Jordana
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. I trick myself Keebler because whenever I take something new I'm fine for a little while, like three days or a week. And I think, ok, this is fine, this will work for longterm treatment.
Then I get seriously whacked.
I know aspirin isn't that safe for my stomach at this point but all the otc anti-inflammatories aren't that safe. I have to watch my kidney function so all the ibuprofens are out. Even something like curcumin with piperazine can stress the liver.
This all gets pretty murky after a while, eh.
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Keebler
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- There are so many safe ways to approach pain. That experience you had the other night, well - if aspirin is used again - it could turn out much worse.
Where safety is concerned, knowing that something "is not that safe" but using it anyway provides no magic powers. You might get lucky once but it seems a logical warning.
Corydalis sounds like a good one to have on hand in the future. -
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bluelyme
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Corydalis has helped more than the tramadol...have you considered rife for protozoans ?...i also had a darkfield test done and i have a toxo or like bug maybe fl1953.
also some of my gut stuff was giardia (protozoan ) That liposomal art sounds awesome. Are you on nac or glutithione?
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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Jordana
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EL says not to do rife with BVT because it just stirs all the bugs up. I was going to buy one but I'm trying to follow the BVT stuff as closely as I can. Actually you're not even supposed to do BVT and abx, but that's a tough order since all we think about is how to get rid of this crap.
Lipo art is a nuclear bomb for parasites-- any parasite I think, even schistosomes. Its trick is that it stays in the bloodstream longer and has more killing power. I was truly wrecked by the fourth day.
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Keebler
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- Even if using artemisinin for "other" parasites, anyone with lyme who may also have babesia has to be careful with not taking just one thing that targets babesia because, potentially, that could create issues with babesia resistance.
"not even supposed to do BVT and abx" - there are reason for that. Using multiple methods at the same time can be very complicated.
Be careful. Be safe. And that often means taking a golf cart on the serene back paths rather than the Humvee on the freeway. -
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Jordana
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Babesia is turning into a really hard problem for me. Anything I take for it has frightening/excruciating effects, as illustrated by the above adventure.
And you're right, BVT and abx together is *grueling.*
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Tincup
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You fill your washer machine with water and put in some really dirty clothes. They are such a nasty mess and really need help!
So, you add your laundry soap, and add some borax, clorox, downey softener and some liquid lysol for good measure.
SUDDENLY the washer stops part way thru the wash cycle, the clothes jump out onto the floor and look at you and say... "____, are you trying to kill me?"
Obviously you think soap should be ok, and clorox always worked before, and many use borax in the wash, as well as lysol and some downy. So what's the problem?
How can I get the clothes clean?
Since there were so many "fix-it" things in the washer you can't sort out what the problem is.
You try putting the clothes back in thinking they've had some time to calm down and they jump out again and kick you.
So you add some baking soda trying to make them happy.
And again you turn the washer on. And again they jump out and slap you silly.
You try adding vinegar and that doesn't work. You add some lavender oil cause that makes sense sometimes and it is calming and smells nice. It doesn't work and the clothes jump out again and give you a black eye.
NOTHING you've tried works and you are tired of getting beaten to a pulp!
Think about it- has adding more and more things helped solve the problem?
Now, tell me what it will take to make the clothes happy and get them clean too?
Jordana
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posted
I want a new wardrobe.
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Keebler
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posted
- Sigh. -
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Jordana
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I was just kidding!
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Keebler
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- Whew! -
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Jordana
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I feel like I should explain that I've been treating Lyme with pulsed high dose abx for three months. It was only at my last appointment LLMD started talking about treating babesia.
Since I was having trouble with zithromax I was going to close the gaps on the pulse with zith, then add artemesinin, and then add mepron.
I had already done a ten day cycle with art and got a crazy herx out of it. Then I was supposed to wait two weeks and do another ten days with zithromax.
My problem has been a real issue tolerating zithromax. I can't tell if it's because I'm just sensitive to that drug or because it's hitting an infection. so at my appointment this week he represcribed clarithromycin instead of zithromax to see if that would be easier to tolerate.
Meantime I was on the second and then third day of the artemisinin schedule, since I had not yet added mepron. One teaspoon of liposomal art is supposed to be about the same as 400 mg of the regular kind, although I think it lasts longer. I was supposed to go ten days but stopped at three - I couldn't even get out of bed to take anything yesterday.
Anyway, so I am NOT just throwing in a bunch of cleaning stuff with my dirty clothes. I've been on this med schedule for three months, trying to stack in babesia treatment now which is pretty standard. I was going to add in the first two ( zith and art) before I then added Mepron to try to slow down the herx.
Didn't work. But it's still not throwing in all kinds of Tide and Bleach and Downy and so on at my infections. There is a plan here and I've read a million times that if you don't treat babs you'll never kill Lyme. Minocycline and tinidazole are not going to get rid of babs and even the doeses I'm doing of those TF doesn't think are enough.
Just gotta keep climbing the mountain here guys.
Posts: 2057 | From Florida | Registered: Feb 2015
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bluelyme
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Keebs said"Be careful. Be safe. And that often means taking a golf cart on the serene back paths rather than the Humvee on the freeway."
Nice analogy tc...so dirty i stopped with cd drinking
i have many tiny framing nails and the only hammer i know how to use is a sledgehammer
I asked doc today what stopped the fascilations and he said 1 and 1 times 1 is sometimes 11..synergy ?
Jordana there is over mountain around or thru..maybr keep borreliosis encysted ,treat babs 120 plus days then get yo bartonella and others..all at once msybe too much
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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Tincup
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J said.. "Anyway, so I am NOT just throwing in a bunch of cleaning stuff with my dirty clothes."
Please know I only disagree with you because I care about you. It hurts to see you continually hurting, in pain, freaking out and putting yourself at risk for having permanent damage and even death.
And since there is NO Lyme treatment protocol known to cure everyone, you actually ARE "throwing in a bunch of stuff" to see what happens.
Your "med schedule" and "plan", like most everyone else's plans, are nothing more than the results of a guessing game that was put together by a doctor that tries, but doesn't have all the answers.
If your doc did have all the answers or a fail proof, safe plan, we'd all be cured by now.
The "schedule" he/she outlined for your situation MUST be flexible because we are all different and there are so many factors involved. And as YOU know, there are no studies proving any of this treatment actually works.
But more important... YOU must be flexible and know when the punches in the nose are too much- and even becoming dangerous.
Again, I care very much and don't want to see you hurt yourself or be so stubborn you won't listen to your own body when it cries out for help.
(Offered with love from one stubborn person to another.)
You don't have to be "brave", tough, on an international speedway, in pain or hurting to treat an infectious disease.
Even if you do those things, it won't help you get better any sooner.
Jordana
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posted
I know you care, TC.
I agree about my doctor, he's just trying stuff -- all this is empirical and he doesn't have to eat all these drugs, I do.
Anyway I am doing exactly that - no drugs, supplements binders nothing for three days now.
The thing is, I can treat Lyme with mino and tinidazole and feel *weird* but not that sick.
Anything I try to add to treat babs though -- different story. I get really really sick. Obviously I have to get rid of it somehow but everything I've tried takes me out of Herxland to Scarytown. There has to be a solution.
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Tincup
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Babs is tuff to treat. It's why many say "I don't want to have THAT one."
Zith is used to enhance the strength (affect) of Mepron. Eating fatty foods- like ice cream- also does that. Adding art and other stuff is also supposedly killing the parasite too.
So you are basically using a 4-50 fold increase in killing effects when doing it all together. OUCH!!!
Maybe start with just one treatment for the babesia. Once the worst of the herxes are calmed down, add another.
One thing I didn't mention earlier...
If you ever become allergic to one of your meds and have a severe reaction, you aren't going to be able to use it in the future.
YOUR problem will be (along with many others)....
You won't have a clue which med you have the allergy to and anything you are taking at the time will be off limits to prevent you from well, dying.
Then you are up that creek with nothing but your gerbil.
Might want to rotate meds around? (As your doc would suggest- don't listen to me or change anything based on what I say unless it is the same as what your doc says.)
Glad you do understand what I am trying to say. You have every right to ignore the warnings- I just can't stand to watch what is happening if I don't at least offer you one first.
bluelyme
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Buhner herbs were keeping it under wraps ya ? Hoping you find the guidance and direction to go
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Jordana
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yeah, the only thing that helped with babs symptoms were the buhner tri-fecta -- actually both sida and crypto alone did this. But they didn't get rid of it.
Zith -- bad reaction, could barely tolerate it but I soldiered through. Then Zith and nutricology artemisinin pills 400 mg-- bad herx after 10 days. ZIth and liposomal art-- bad news all around. I never even *got* to the Mepron. I was putting it off to see how I was going to tolerate the first two.
My babs treatment is just not working. :/
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