Where we part company is regarding who the EIS is and where their loyalties lie. I am always amazed at how quickly people attempt to discredit others through name-calling. Attempting to discredit my post, by calling me a neo-McCarthyite and ridiculous hardly seems productive. We share some common thoughts and part company on others. Don't be so quick to discount another opinion. It doesn't mean you have to agree with it.

Daystar is right, you should read the Communist Manifesto. Personally I think it is naive to think a country as free and open as the U.S. is not subject to infiltration. Surely the spy cases of recent years proves that and it is likely the tip of the ice berg. As for communism being dead or Russia no longer a threat. There are many more knowledgeable than me who will tell you that assumption is wrong. Russia supposedly is conducting more espionage in this country today than at the height of the Cold War and that's just counting what we know about. A lot has been written about Putin moving his country rapidly back in the direction of communism. Russia has continued to pour a large percentage of its capital into its military, particularly weapons specifically designed to exploit our weaknesses. Much of the nuclear disarmament of the post Cold War era has been unilateral on our part. Russia and China are doing a lot of partnering up militarily.

I think people need to wake up and pay attention. The way the Soviet Union and the Berlin Wall self destructed always seemed artificial to me. No revolution, no real fight from the hard liners who had so much to lose, no bloodshed. It was like a made for tv movie that only the movie-loving Americans would buy, hook, line and sinker.

The U.S. is fast approaching second rate status both economically and militarily. China nearing a par with us and their allies are much stronger militarily than are ours. This isn't happening by mistake. I believe the leaders of the Soviet Union realized in the mid-eighties that they did not have the capital to keep up with us in the arms race, particularly technologically. I think they chose a bold and cunning alternative. They decided to take a big step back and allow the Soviet empire to break apart, convincing us that we won and that the U.S. is the only remaining super power. They knew the naive Americans would buy it and over time, weaken their defenses while the communist coalition strengthened theirs, albeit out of the spotlight. It is happening before our very eyes. Meanwhile, the American population can be weakened from within via tick-borne diseases. By the way, has anyone else noticed the disproportionate number of top students with chronic, neurological Lyme. Don't know why or how but so many of the kids with chronic Lyme that I know of were top, top students. Don't know how that could be but we are losing our future best and brightest, it seems.

I am sure to many of you this is too extreme to accept. But I promise you I am not a crazy person. Bone up on your history and start connecting some dots. I am afraid this country is very rapidly approaching a point of no return because most people take our freedoms for granted. Those that think capitalism is bad and our military is evil should consider what life under the alternative might be like.

Also, everyone please note that I am NOT advocating that anyone discuss anthing that's not already out in the public domain re the Steere camp and the military, whether on LymeNet or anywhere else.

I think it could well be dangerous. I am sure there will come a time when our basic arguments will have become known and publicised, to the extent that it will be much safer for anyone who has such revelations to share them. I believe things are already moving in that direction, because so much has leaked out recently(apart from Klempner's tularemia, I mean!)

But I don't think we are there yet, so people do need to think carefully about what they share on the internet, if it's material that's not already out in the public domain.

But as I always say, there's a hell of a lot out there in the public domain already.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
That was a good post, Lisa.
THe communist idea is pretty funny.
A key point you make is the goals of the military industrial complex are different than that of civilian life.

I still don't know what it is you want to do. How/where do you want to gather evidence? Maybe lymenet isn't the best place for this discussion (tho it drew me temporarily back to lymenet). Meanwhile people are suffering so something has to be done. .......

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by ticktox:
Call me a McCarthyite if you wish. Actually many of so-called lunatic rantings have since been proven true. One of the biggest tricks in the communist book is to neutralize your enemy by discrediting him.

---

I suppose that is meant to imply that I am a secret KGB agent too?

I don't need to discredit you, because if you honestly believe that the Steere camp, the DoD, and the US Government are all secret agents of Putin, then you are discrediting yourself very effectively without any help from me or anyone else.

You complain about me calling you a McCarthyite. I thought, by your tone, you would see the word "McCarthyite" as a compliment, not an insult.

Who was McCarthy, and what were the McCarthyites? They were the ones who whipped the US into a hysterical state in the fifties, telling the US public there was a "Red-under-every-bed", and anyone standing up for civil rights, labor rights, peace etc was considered a dangerous KGB agent to be eliminated.

You say that you and I agree about the scope and importance of the EIS. What is the EIS, and what is its background?

Go look it up on the CDC website. They proudly tell their own story. It was founded in the McCarthyite era, precisely in order to fight the "Red peril" - with weapons of mass destruction that would have wiped out not only authoritarian regimes of the eastern bloc, but also the millions and millions of men, women and children - real human beings - who lived there.

At that time, offensive biological and chemical warfare was the legal, official policy of the US.

It was in the sixties and seventies, when the power of the McCarthyites waned, that the US finally agreed not to make bioweapons. At least in words.

I don't buy the idea that Allen Steere, Alan Barbour, Ed McSweegan, Mark Klempner etc are hypnotised automatons working for Putin. Or consciously working for Putin. I find it ridiculous.

They are military "extremophiles" - biowarriors, soldiers who are prepared to work in areas that not every soldier would be prepared to touch. But in their way of thinking - they are doing it for the United States of America - and many of them will justify it exactly with belief system like yours ie, that the US is under imminent threat of attack by Russia and therefore needs ever-more horrific weapons of mass destruction and mass incapacitation at the ready.

Ken Alibek , the former Soviet biowar chief who defected to the US, explained that he did the atrocious job he did, because he and his countrymen were told (and believed) that the US intended to do it to them first.

The US public in the McCarthyite era -the era that spawned the EIS - accepted that their military should develop biological WMD (starting with people like the EIS), precisely because they were being told that the soviets intended to develop some against them - the mirror image of Alibek's situation.

Ordinary people from all over the world have to break this vicious cycle of war and hatred, and get out of this mentality that "the other guy is out to get us". That is the mentality that has always, always, been used to justify the making and deployment of WMD, and that is why we have a Steere camp neck-deep in bioweapons that sees us and our hundreds of thousand of wrecked lives as just so much annoying, whining, collateral damage.

In case anyone has been napping for the last 30 years, we are for better or worse a world in which state capitalism no longer has a rival. I don't know one serious economist or political scientist on the planet who denies that.

I have nothing against people who prefer to hide from such realities, but I do think we have to draw the line somewhere when it comes to bold and utterly counterfactual declarations.

If we're going to invoke invisible communists, we might as well invoke little (Lyme) green men.

Plum Island has an official, publically acknowledged existence that certifies it's potential relevance to the Lyme epidemic.

Plum Island is not legend passed along on websites populated by people involved in constructing alternative realities, where the cold war is still hot, the commies are still coming, and McCarthy was right all along.

I would hope we could keep the discussion attached by some sort of tether to the world in which we live. I know none of us gets out much anymore, but honestly, folks...

As a graduate of the Politics program at the University of California at Santa Cruz, I learned early on that many people of a certain Ayn Randian perspective cannot distinguish between communism and totalitarianism. They honestly think that the Nazis, for example, were inspired by Karl Marx, because they called themselves "National Socialists".

These people are walled off from reality by their own hardened ideological assumptions.

The impulse towards total domination has never needed communism as an excuse, and is no less dangerous to the world since the fall of the Soviet Union than before.

To anyone unclear on the concept, I recommend reading the descriptions of Fascism published by the US military during World War II.

They are quite sophisticated and most political scientist find them more or less accurate summaries of how the dream of total domination becomes a waking nightmare, when concentrated economic power and centralized state authority combine.

Communism was always kind of a backwards approach to achieving that combination - it is now little more than a historical anomaly.

there have been so many posts lately that i dont even know where to begin explaining things to people, so unfortunetly i have not been posting to help shed light on the issue. there are so many posts to read i have just felt overwhelmed. i know there are those on the forum who are doing a very good job helping show others the truth.
many however have formed opinons even though they may not know what mycoplasma is, or that it was manufacuted and worked on at plub island accross from lyme where the outbreak started. they most likely have never been tested for mycoplasma even though all of the serious LLMDs know that mycoplasma is very serious and most likely the cause for many cases of chronic degenerative diseases. i have been sick for seven years and have been to many doctors. the doctors i have seen most recently have all been heavy weight LLMDs. one is a co-found of ilads. they dont come out and tell anyone about any of this, but after i figured it out myself, i got varying levels of agreement and co-operation. the very least i got was complete agreement but nothing else, no volunteering information. although i did get my mycoplasa test for 13 strains done here. the nurse would also come by a lot to change my dressing for the iv and he was a nice guy who knew about this as well. at one point he started doing mycoplasma pannels on the initial lyme and other blood tests done for new patients. what he found was that the majority of the patients were coming back with one or multiple strains of mycoplasma. i think after a bit the doctor told him to stop.
if you look at the strains of mycoplasma they call the main ones gulf war 1, and gulf war 2 on the blood test. they are named this because mycoplasma is what is a main factor in gulf war illness, which is very very very similar to lyme. once everyone actually gets themselves tested and realizes that these certain mycoplasma species only have one history that you will ever find, and thats bio warfare.

the good thing is that there have been so many posts and that this issue is coming out into the open. i remember not so long a go, maybe a year or two when the mods and other people would not even want this topic in anything other than off topic. i think they even knew the truth but said that it was too much for some to deal with.

there is a change happening, more and more people are talking about this. and more and more are waking up to the truth or at least part of the truth. we all know the insanity that exists with doctors and lyme. we can all see something is not right in this area. the symptoms are all over this forum in the form of stories, post the craziest thing a doctor has told you, polls, ect.
actually the reason i woke up is because of a public lyme hearing. the public health director was acting so ridiculously to try to fault a lyme doctor on his research and presentation. the doctor had a long list of names of other doctors who had published information on the same topic. the public official was trying to make it seem like the names were repeated on the list and that the list was actually very small, when in fact it was the opposite. the persistance of this guy was what really got me going. he kept going and going until he looked like a complete idiot. he made the guy just keep reading many many names of the list instead of letting him go on with the research. well this got me going. my own mother had learned from a lyme support group about plub island. they all agreed that it was a cover up. months went by where i could not believe it. until i saw this hearing and finally the whole thing was just far too warped. something was wrong, and i had to at least research this island which i knew nothing about, but had previously formed an opinion on.

everyone should know that mycoplasma is a co factor in aids with the visna virus. and the goverment has patented it. the patent is even availible on a .gov goverment website: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,242,820.WKU.&OS=PN/5,242,820&RS=PN/5,242,820
the patent mentions chronic fatigue.

i have 5 strains of the mycoplasma. one reason its important to learn what mycoplamsa you have is because only certain antibiotics will work. in addition you can take supplements like selenium which block the mycoplasma growth. also when you begin to understand how they work and operate you can do more to make yourself healthy and resistant to them.

the more you know the more you can do to help yourself and those around you.

Honestly go read the book.

Do you also think that 'communists' have infiltrated many over countries governments also?

I really, really think it is very very unlikely that this has anything whatsoever to do with infiltration by communists (and what communists do you refer to exactly? There are communists groups in not just old Russia (i.e. USSR). I think that is taking the conspiracy thing just a tad far, and unless there was some actual evidence for that, I think it is pretty ludicruous.

Nonetheless, if most people had thought like you in this country, we would never have fought the Nazis.

We would instead having welcomed them as allies in the fight against evil. Much as our current president seeks to 'spread freedom' by chumming it up with many of freedom's sworn enemies, including Putin, the Russian leader that dubya considers a personal friend. (Not surprising, given how alike they are in their respect for democratic institutions).

Good heavens, Ticktock, I do believe you've been bitten by the same bug that got Jeane Kirkpatrick, another bright, articulate woman whose world view could peel paint from the walls.

I remember Jeanne, because while she was assisting Ronnie in the White House, I was helping to keep the victims of his domestic policies from starving, working with a group of Maryknoll nuns at a food bank and shelter for homeless families.

My dear Maryknoll pals were close friends with a group of nuns that were raped and killed in El Salvador by US-backed, right-wing thugs.

When confronted with this fact, Jeannie K. told the press, "Well, you know, they weren't just nuns, they were Marxists." Yep. That's what Jeannie said. I won't tell you what the sisters said in reply.

Not that you probably care, but China is viewed as a state-captialist regime by just about everyone these days, including the Chinese and the World Trade Organization.

Aha! Now I understand why Camilla wore that stupid hat at the wedding. (She was hiding a copy of the communist manifesto underneath it.)

And when all the caviar and �10,000 a bottle wine is packed away, and the last maid has finished spreading toothpaste on Her Majesty's solid ivory toothbrush (a personal gift from an extinct elephant species), and retired to the servants' quarters for the night, the Queen whips out her copy of the communist manifesto from under the royal petticoat, hides under the hand-embroidered satin sheets with her diamond-studded flashlight and stays up all night, secretly plotting a Bolshevik uprising.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by dontlikeliver:
With all due respect, Ticktox, the anti-Lyme 'movement'/attitudes among the medical/government arenas are not exclusive to the United States.

Do you also think that 'communists' have infiltrated many over countries governments also?

I really, really think it is very very unlikely that this has anything whatsoever to do with infiltration by communists (and what communists do you refer to exactly? There are communists groups in not just old Russia (i.e. USSR). I think that is taking the conspiracy thing just a tad far, and unless there was some actual evidence for that, I think it is pretty ludicruous.

DLL

---

A doctor here in the UK has just published an article suggesting Lyme as one of the causes of Gulf War illness.

I am aware that a virulent strain of mycoplasma was patented by a doctor called Lo, who is a US army pathologist.

I don't completely understand what you are saying. Are you saying that you believe mycoplasma is a co-infection that exacerbates/activates/re-activates borreliosis, or are you saying you believe that mycoplasma rather than borrelia is causing our symptoms?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by break the chains:
i posted this in general under mycoplamsa, but i would guess that most here dont really know too much about mycoplasma.

there have been so many posts lately that i dont even know where to begin explaining things to people, so unfortunetly i have not been posting to help shed light on the issue. there are so many posts to read i have just felt overwhelmed. i know there are those on the forum who are doing a very good job helping show others the truth.
many however have formed opinons even though they may not know what mycoplasma is, or that it was manufacuted and worked on at plub island accross from lyme where the outbreak started. they most likely have never been tested for mycoplasma even though all of the serious LLMDs know that mycoplasma is very serious and most likely the cause for many cases of chronic degenerative diseases. i have been sick for seven years and have been to many doctors. the doctors i have seen most recently have all been heavy weight LLMDs. one is a co-found of ilads. they dont come out and tell anyone about any of this, but after i figured it out myself, i got varying levels of agreement and co-operation. the very least i got was complete agreement but nothing else, no volunteering information. although i did get my mycoplasa test for 13 strains done here. the nurse would also come by a lot to change my dressing for the iv and he was a nice guy who knew about this as well. at one point he started doing mycoplasma pannels on the initial lyme and other blood tests done for new patients. what he found was that the majority of the patients were coming back with one or multiple strains of mycoplasma. i think after a bit the doctor told him to stop.
if you look at the strains of mycoplasma they call the main ones gulf war 1, and gulf war 2 on the blood test. they are named this because mycoplasma is what is a main factor in gulf war illness, which is very very very similar to lyme. once everyone actually gets themselves tested and realizes that these certain mycoplasma species only have one history that you will ever find, and thats bio warfare.

the good thing is that there have been so many posts and that this issue is coming out into the open. i remember not so long a go, maybe a year or two when the mods and other people would not even want this topic in anything other than off topic. i think they even knew the truth but said that it was too much for some to deal with.

there is a change happening, more and more people are talking about this. and more and more are waking up to the truth or at least part of the truth. we all know the insanity that exists with doctors and lyme. we can all see something is not right in this area. the symptoms are all over this forum in the form of stories, post the craziest thing a doctor has told you, polls, ect.
actually the reason i woke up is because of a public lyme hearing. the public health director was acting so ridiculously to try to fault a lyme doctor on his research and presentation. the doctor had a long list of names of other doctors who had published information on the same topic. the public official was trying to make it seem like the names were repeated on the list and that the list was actually very small, when in fact it was the opposite. the persistance of this guy was what really got me going. he kept going and going until he looked like a complete idiot. he made the guy just keep reading many many names of the list instead of letting him go on with the research. well this got me going. my own mother had learned from a lyme support group about plub island. they all agreed that it was a cover up. months went by where i could not believe it. until i saw this hearing and finally the whole thing was just far too warped. something was wrong, and i had to at least research this island which i knew nothing about, but had previously formed an opinion on.

everyone should know that mycoplasma is a co factor in aids with the visna virus. and the goverment has patented it. the patent is even availible on a .gov goverment website: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PALL&p=1&u=/
netahtml/srchnum.htm&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=5,242,820.WKU.&OS=PN/5,242,820&RS=PN/5,242,820
the patent mentions chronic fatigue.

i have 5 strains of the mycoplasma. one reason its important to learn what mycoplamsa you have is because only certain antibiotics will work. in addition you can take supplements like selenium which block the mycoplasma growth. also when you begin to understand how they work and operate you can do more to make yourself healthy and resistant to them.

the more you know the more you can do to help yourself and those around you.

---

when people get into a serious chronic degenerative state however it is typically a well established mycoplasma infection. many many people have "lyme disease" with mycoplasmas and have been mis-diagnosed with one of the other chronic diseases that are so similar to lyme. actually all of these diseases are a label without a cause. really they are labels for where the mycoplasma has been able to get a foot hold in the body.
a few are chronic fatigue (i was told i had this and would have to deal with it), fibromyalgia, MS, ALS, gulfwar syndrome(new york times published GWS caused by vaccines), parkinsons, lou gehrigs, chrons, RA, alzheimers, and the list goes on. i hope i havnt missed any of the major ones.

i do believe that borrelia and other TBD's are very effcient at opening the door for the mycoplasmas. also if they are not erradicated they will do damage and establish themsevles. for mycoplasmas to work on their own you either need a good sized initial dose, or for some kind of trauma to take place. i have come to this realizeation party because i have been muscle tested by my LLMD from ilads (his idea and practice) and he found the lyme had been eliminated by the antibiotics, not the mycoplasma however.

mycoplasma is the cause of gulf war syndrome, not lyme. the veterans were given vaccines, some which gave personel terrible reactions and symptoms. on montel's ms special he told how he went blind after his vaccine and became very ill. this was the begining of his horrific battle with MS. i do not know if he has made the connection, but im pretty sure he wouldnt come out with it on tv if he had. the armed forces also told those who got that vaccine that should they develop the symptoms of MS they should contact the goverment so they could get a pension to take care of themsevles. mycoplasma is the cause of gulf war syndrome because they were doing a controled testing on a group of some of the fittest americans.

the very reason we have mycoplasma tests is because the father of a veteran who is a microbiologist had his daughter come home from the gulf in a devistated condition. he set out to find out why, found the mycoplasmas, and develeoped a pcr test. this man is garth nickelson. garth and a few others like him have provided a good ammount of information on mycoplasmas but have not made the lyme connection. this is very unfortunate because it fragments the information unless you know what is really happening. it seems garth nickelson has finally made the connection and is speaking on mycoplasmas at a conference in connecticut next month about the co-infections of "lyme". i am very glad important people like him are realizeing that lyme is the same thing. two doctors i have seen are also speaking here, including the one i have been mentioning so much here.

BTW Bruce, if I can put this politely, you seem to be a little...hmmmm..eccentric these days. Is something up with you?

When I first read your posts I really liked them, not just the funny stuff but also the serious stuff. And you did seem to grasp that the Steere camp were guilty of deliberate fraud (as you do in this post).

But I have noticed that lately you have started to become kinda friendly with weisman (Chief Skunk of Sci Med). What's going on? Surely you know he is a Steere camp provocateur?

If you don't, I suggest you do a search for his name + ILADS or "weisman" + "burrascano" or even "weisman" + "LymeNet" and see the kind of crap that comes up. He is forever expressing his hatred for ILADS and making fun of our good doctors, as well as showing his hatred of all Lymeland.

It is true he does pretend to be a Lymie at times, and says things apparently against the Steere camp, especially when new people pop into the sci-med group.

But if you read closely, there is always a a sub-text, a punchline at the end. It's things like "well, we all know the testing sucks, but ........" or "I don't like Steere, but...." and what follows the "but" comes straight out of a bull's butt, basically.

The themes are always the same, ie "Lymies lose credibility if they denounce the Steere camp, and anyway they are not guilty of fraud theyr're just mistaken, etc etc...".and then he will launch into an attack on LLMDs, accusing them of malpractice, incompetence, embezzlement, you-name-it. He has been incredibly vicious and sadistic in his dealings with Lymies, above all with those who threaten the Steere camp in any way.

I thought you were an intelligent guy, and could see through that stuff?

Sorry to crab. But you're not the first Lymie to get drawn into his snake-pit. He hypnotised that fool Martijn, and manipulated a mentally ill woman with Lyme into going around hurling abuse at LLMDs, and repeating everything he said.

I'm not suggesting you are going to start bad-mouthing ILADS and calling LymeNet "LymeNut" just because he does. I just don't understand why you are giving him the time of day?

I truly hope you're not thinking of smoking the genetically-modified peace pipe with weisman?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
One question I have never seen adequately answered is why allen steere served in the EIS and CDC for two years as an epidimilogist - and THEN did his fellowship at yale in rheumatology. Does anyone have an answer for this? It seems to me that someone who worked in the EIS and epidemiology would be interested in an ID fellowship as opposed to rheumatology. Although of course epidemiology involves the study of all diseases and their occurences and frequencies, it's a somewhat odd combination, and odd again in terms of sequence of events.

---

Lisa

nancyatlymesupportcom
Flash Member
Posts: 9
From: Shelton CT USA
Registered: Dec 2003
posted 30 March 2005 13:28
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
* Please address any comments to: modelt1918 -AT- sbcglobal.net or jettyhound -AT- juno.com or call 860-658-9938(Randy) or 860-673-8759(Chris)

30th Anniversary of Lyme Disease - with No Compassion Observed!
Educational Medical Conference Sponsored by:

The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group Members and The Town of Farmington - Community Services

GUEST SPEAKERS:

Lesley Ann Fein, MD, M.P.H Garth L. Nicholson, Ph.D.

Master of Ceremonies President, Chief Scientific Officer

Internal Medicine - West Caldwell, NJ The Institute for Molecular Medicine

Huntington Beach, CA

Bernard Raxlen, M.D.P.C. Jo Anne Whitaker, MD

Psychiatrist - Stamford, CT Bowen Research and

Secretary, International Lyme and Training Institute, Inc.

Associated Diseases Society Tarpon Springs, FL

Richard Horowitz, MD Lida H. Mattman, M.S., Ph.D.

Internal Medicine - Hyde Park, NY Grosse Pointe, MI

First Vice President, International Lyme

And Associated Diseases Society

This Conference was organized to educate and inform the public about Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses. We believe Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses are the State of Connecticut's greatest health threat. This concern combined with unreliable blood tests, means that large numbers of patients are being routinely misdiagnosed as having other illnesses such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia. Moreover, Lyme disease can mimic numerous other maladies. It has been know to present as Multiple Sclerosis, ALS and Parkinson's disease. Additionally, those diagnosed with Lupus, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Depression and Attention Deficit Disorder also should consider the possibility they may have Lyme disease. Leading researchers are finding strong evidence that the Lyme bacteria (Borrelia burgdorferi) is responsible for a significant amount of mental illness, including those disorders that present as Schizophrenia, Bipolar Disorder and OCD. New evidence is even pointing to a possible link between Lyme disease and Autism.

Where: Farmington/Unionville Senior Community Center

321 New Britain Avenue, Unionville, CT

When: Saturday, May 7, 2005

Time: Doors open at 8:00 a.m., Conference starts at 9:00 a.m.

Donation: $25 before 5/3/05, $30 at the door - Includes, coffee, donuts, lunch and beverages - Seating Limited - Reservations Required - RSVP mail in Reservation Coupon below to guarantee seat. Questions can be directed by email to modelt1918 -AT- sbcglobal.net or jettyhound -AT- juno.com or call 860-658-9938(Randy) or 860-673-8759(Chris)

Book Signing Authors in Attendance (free admission)

Sue Vogan

NCO - No Compassion Observed Karen Vanderhoff-Forschner

Everything You Need to Know About Lyme Disease

And Other Tick-Borne Disorders

Polly Murray Denise V. Lang

The Widening Circle, A Lyme disease pioneer tells her story Coping with Lyme Disease

Reservation Coupon

Name__________________________________Tele#__________________________Number of People Attending______

Make checks payable to The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group (GHLDSA) and mail to: The Greater Hartford Lyme Disease Support and Action Group, c/o Randy Sykes, 5 Lostbrook Road, West Simsbury, CT 06092, no later than May 3, 2005. Please call prior to sending to make sure space is available 860-658-9938

Dr. Lesley Ann Fein

Holds both an MD (1977-Witwaterstand Medical School South Africa) and an MPH (1979-Columbia University, NY). Additionally, she is Board Certified in Internal Medicine (1984) and completed her Fellowship in Rheumatology at New York University (1986). She has been in practice since 1986 and has taught Epidemiology to medical and public health students at Columbia University and Mt. Sinai Hospital, NY. She has also taught General Medicine and Rheumatology at Mt. Sinai and NYU. Dr. Fein has served on several committees, inclusive of S296 under Senator Bennet (Majority Leader of NJ Senate) regarding Lyme disease, the National Health Legislation Task Force, an Advisor to the Lyme Disease Foundation and on the Republican Congressional Committee Advisory Board. She is both an experienced researcher, through grants from Hoechst labs as well as Pfizer pharmaceuticals, and a seasoned public speaker. Since 1993 she has had more than 14 public speaking roles at major medical convocations and conferences, inclusive of 7 conferences specifically related to Lyme disease and other tick borne disorders. Additionally, she has authored, or co-authored, several journal articles and government reports on Lyme disease and other tick borne illnesses since 1997, including those found in the Journal of Spirochetal and Tick Borne Diseases and the Journal of Clinical Microbiology.

Dr. Richard Howowitz

Board Certified, Internal Medicine, Former Assistant Director of Medicine, Vasser Brother's Hospital. Dr. Horowitz is a practicing physician in Hyde Park, NY who specializes in diagnosis and treatment of complicated Lyme disease and other tick-borne illnesses. He is an internist with 20 year of experience in treating over 8,000 cases of persistent (late) Lyme disease. His is author to numerous scientific articles along with featured speaker in many conferences and workshops over the years on Lyme disease. He is currently the First Vice President, International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society, Inc. (ILADS).

Dr. Jo Anne Whitaker

Has had extensive residence and fellowship programs in pediatrics, hematology, oncology, nutrition and psychiatry. She taught in seven different medical schools and retired as a full professor of pediatrics. She spent nine years in Southeast Asia, starting a new medical school and nutritional laboratory in Thailand and post-graduate training program in Vietnam during the war. After returning form Vietnam, she was director of the Florida Mental Health Center in Tampa. She helped start and develop the first hospice in Florida and initiated the Little Kids Program for Abused Children at the Chi Chi Rodriguez Children's Program.

Directions

Directions from 84 East or West - take exit 39 (which is Farmington Rt.4 exit). At end of exit continue straight through the light and continue on Rt. 4 West for approx. 4.9 miles to the intersection of Rt. 4 and Rt. 77. At this intersection take a left onto Rt. 177 South (South Main Street) On this corner you'll see Sovereign Bank. Proceed over the Steel Bridge and at the first light after you cross the bridge take a left onto New Britain Avenue. Go approx .8 of a mile and the Senior Center will be on your left (Address - 321 New Britain Avenue, Unionville, CT) police station is also here.
Dr. Bernard Raxlen, M.D.P.C.

is a practicing physician in Stamford, CT who specializes in diagnosis and treatment of complicated Lyme disease, and other tick-borne diseases and nutritional medicine. He is a Neuropsychiatrist with over twenty years of experience Dr. Raxlen was an original member and co-founder of AIMS (Academy for Integrated Medial Studies) and served for several years on the Board of Directors of the Omega Institute. He is a founding member and secretary of the Board of Governors of the International Lyme and Associated Diseases Society (ILADS). Dr. Raxlen is the only psychiatrist in the tri-state area to initiate a total comprehensive treatment program utilizing both oral and IV antibiotic treatment intervention in conjunction with neuropharmacology and stress management for depression, panic disorder, bipolar mood disorder, epileptiform seizure activity, ADD memory loss, sleep disorder, and pre-frontal lobe deficit syndrome. He has uniquely integrated these treatments with supportive modalities from his work in psychoneuroimmunology and nutritional medicine. He has been a featured speaker in many conferences and workshops over the years on psychoneuroimmunology and Lyme disease and has been on national television (NBC) discussing medical concerns that pertain to the practice of integrated medicine. His is the author of numerous scientific articles and four full-length plays and is presently in the process of writing a book entitled Renaissance Medicine.

Professor Garth Nicholson, Ph.D.

Is the President Chief Scientific Officer and a Research Professor at the Institute for Molecular Medicine. He has over 550 scientific and medical publications, several of which are citation classics. He holds 9 U.S. patents. Formerly he was the David Bruton Jr. Chair in Cancer Research, Professor and Chairman, Dept. of Tumor biology at the University of Texas M. D. Anderson Cancer Center, and he has held various other professorships including Professor of Internal Medicine and University of Texas Medical School at Houston and Professor of Comparative Pathology at Texas A & M University. Dr. Nicolson's interests are in the biochemistry and molecular genetics of cancer progression with particular interests in the areas of metastasis or spread of cancer, paracrine growth factors and invasion enzymes. He is also engaged in research on the role of chronic infections in a variety of chronic illnesses, such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, Fibromyalgia Syndrome, Rheumatoid Arthritis, Gulf War Illness and various autoimmune diseases. He hold a Ph.D. Biochemistry/Cell Biology, University of California Dan Diego (1970); B.S. Chemistry, University of California Los Angeles (1965), Founded IMM 1996.

Professor Lida Mattman, Ph.D.

Has spend sever decades studying the different forms that bacteria can take, publishing the textbook on Stealth Pathogens, ``Cell Wall Deficient Forms.'' Graduated with a M.S. in Virology from Univ. of Kansas and Ph.D. in Immunology from Yale, She has taught Immunology, Microbiology, Bacteriology, Virology, Pathology, and for 35 years worked in these fields at various schools and institutions including Harvard Univ., Howard Hughes Institute, Oakland Univ. and Wayne State Univ. where she is Professor Emeritus. Currently working for the Nelson Medical Research Institute studying the relationship of spirochetes involved in MS, Lyme and ALS. In 1998 she was nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine.

IP: Logged

nancyatlymesupportcom
Flash Member
Posts: 9
From: Shelton CT USA
Registered: Dec 2003
posted 30 March 2005 13:42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There are formatting errors in the previous entry which are beyond my control due to limitations of cutting and pasting. To see this as a formatted pdf file, follow this link: http://lymesupport.com/LD-flyer-may-7-2005.pdf
or for a web page version: http://lymesupport.com/May-7-2005-seminar.htm

quote:

---

Originally posted by break the chains:
[B]it seems garth nickelson has finally made the connection and is speaking on mycoplasmas at a conference in connecticut next month about the co-infections of "lyme". i am very glad important people like him are realizeing that lyme is the same thing. two doctors i have seen are also speaking here, including the one i have been mentioning so much here.

B]

---

and btw rayja, don't worry about who I associate with on the internet. just because I'm not a governor rowland conspiracy groupie doesn't mean weisman and I are lovers. Although I have been thinking about asking him to go to hawaii with me.

mind your own associations, and I'll mind mine. weisman may be disagreeable at times, but he is intelligent and has been a good source of information.

quote:

---

Originally posted by break the chains:
maybe he was moved to yale to tell people they dont have lyme. i tried to go to docotor shapiro at yale and on the phone was told that if my knees werent so swollen that i couldnt walk that it wasnt lyme diseasae. i finally did get an appointment with another yale doctor who ended up basicly saying the same thing. "its not lyme even though you have positive blood tests and are disabled."
yale is in the belly of the establishment.
CDC is the center for disease coverups.

---

Just the fact that he calls LymeNet "LymeNut" should help you understand that he views the whole of Lymeland with the same touching level of compassion and humanity as Shapiro - ZERO.

I'm not a "Rowland conspiracy groupie" , Bruce. Kathleen had problems with the Rowland administration because she lived in Connecticut where he seemed to be running his own little mafia. I've hardly ever mentioned Rowland, as I'm not in Ct.

I didn't call you "Weisman's lover." If you want to go to Hawaii with him, that's your business. Personally, I'd rather go on holiday in the Bermuda Triangle with Jack the Ripper.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Aligondo Bruce:
well, you have to realize that eugene shapiro is one of the most morally and ethically corrupt human beings on the planet. this is the guy who pins the label "hypochondriac" on most lyme sufferers, and goes out of his way to do so, in cross country lectures and such. I mean, this guy deserves at least life in prison when all the dust settles on this stuff.

and btw rayja, don't worry about who I associate with on the internet. just because I'm not a governor rowland conspiracy groupie doesn't mean weisman and I are lovers. Although I have been thinking about asking him to go to hawaii with me.

mind your own associations, and I'll mind mine. weisman may be disagreeable at times, but he is intelligent and has been a good source of information.

---

In response to some of your posts directed at or to me:
Oxygenbabe, thanks for the book recommendation(Matsumoto). I will try to read it at some point. My assumption is he has evidence that the military is performing risky vaccine experiments on our soldiers. I agree. My belief is this is all part of an overall enemy(communist or whoever) strategy to weaken the American population just as the Lyme epidemic is part of the strategy. Yes some people in the military who are calling the shots on this are well aware of what they are doing. My point is their loyalties lie elsewhere. most of the military is innocently going along because they mistakenly respect and believe what this compromised authority is telling them about the necessity of the vaccine program. Let me turn it around on you. This is a dangerous world. Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk. If our country is at risk because of a weakened military so our these leaders. Are our military leaders asleep at the switch? Absolutely. But just like the EIS, I will put money on the fact that our military has been infiltrated and it is these infiltrators who are in charge of the vaccine program.

DLL: Yes of course the communists have infiltrated other Western governments. This is not new news. This is an East vs West thing. Anyone who thinks the Cold War ended with the break-up of the Soviet Union and the tumbling of the Berlin Wall is both naive and blind. There are plenty of news stories to substantiate that this is ongoing. And of course I am speaking of more than just Russia. The communists are united in their disdain for the West and do work together. We're talking Russia, China, North Korea and others.

Paul,thanks for putting me in the same company with Jeanne Kirkpatrick. She is one smart, saavy lady. I will respond to you by paraphrazing Winston Churchill. Capitalism is a very flawed system. It just happens to be far superior to any other system devised to date.

That's it folks. Now have at me.

Deer are a factor, but there are many studies out there indicating that Lyme can rely on other reservoirs including rodents. One researcher here has published that the chief reseervoir for Lyme in Britain is pheasants. It did not receive much attention because our mass media never talks about Lyme anyway, which we officially "don't have", or near enough.

The tick which is considered the main Lyme vector in Europe, Ixodes ricinus, has always been known to ordinary people as "the sheep tick".

If the problem was just a matter of increasing deer, what could explain the fact that such a massively disproportionate number of the leading Steere camp personnel just happen to be biowarfaremen/EIS members etc?

And why should the British government (which denies doing any Lyme research for the past 6 years) inform an international meeting on bioterrorism that, as part of their security measures to protect against biological weapon threats, they are keeping a close eye on Lyme (and co-infections) in their specialist unit at Porton Down (the UK's Detrick?)

You see, it's not just a question that Plum Island has admitted doing experiments on ticks. It would be possible to accept that, and still argue that Lyme was of no interest to biowarriors, until we realise that the majority of those denying the reality of Lyme are tied up with biowarfare. That cannot be co-incidence; there must be a reason.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by HaplyCarlessdave:
There might be some sonspiracies happening, and I have no doubt that those jokers out on plum island are investigating lyme and other nasty disease with warin their minds. But I don't think that's a factor in the lyme epidemic, at least yet. Lyme has proliferated largely because deer have adaped; are evolving, to live in cities. ..... DaveS

---

I hope you didn't see my post to you as 'an attack', it was not intended that way. You have a right to your opinion and we don't have to agree on some things. What I was saying was basically that if you can demonstrate/back up what you are saying, I will listen/consider it.

However, Ticktox, you are saying (and I don't think I imagined this), that Lyme is the result of a communist conspiracy currently underway, as the countries of the former Soviet bloc are just pretending to be capitalist (????)

I guess the billionaire oligarchs in Russia are just pretending to be billionaires? And what's more you say the reds have taken over CDC, NIH, etc.

I am trying not to die of laughter here, picturing an updated version of the Manchurian Candidate, with McSweegan as the brainwashed US officer. Does this mean that if we get the jack-of-spades, or whatever it was, and wave it under McSweegan's nose, he will snap out of it and come on TV and admit that the Dressler-Steere criteria was full of sh*t? LOL.

Anyway, let's imagine that all the above really happened, the ALDF are secretly commies, so is CDC, so are NIH, Allen Steere sings the Red Falg to his T-cell collection before kissing them all good night,etc, as per your theory, ticktox.

I guess you mean so is the Bush administration (all that oil wealth was a great camouflage, huh? Who'd ever have guessed - Dubya is really a marxist-leninist guerilla who trained with Che in the desert - well some kind of gorilla anyway).

Anyhow, let's say we were to accept all that so far. You then say that the Russians, having fooled us into thinking they are capitalist and installed Bush, Steere etc as their puppets, spread Lyme on the US to weaken its population. Why then, is Russia and the former eastern bloc ABSOLUTELY CHOCK FULL OF LYME?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by dontlikeliver:
Hi Ticktox,

....... Why would certain countries like Sweden and Poland have very high Borreliosis infection rates - what would 'the communists' have to gain by targeting one neutral country and one which is basically just emerging out of the Eastern bloc itself? That makes no sense to me.

---

Another quote by James Warburg to the Senate on Foreign Relations Committee on Feb. 17, 1950 " We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."

The next one is what I think is happening and in order to have control over people to accomplish the goal of world government...you need to weaken everyone ...all over the world...to make them dependant and in the end begging for help from the very forces who caused the whole mess in the first place. It's called Problem_ Reaction -Solution Those in power create the problem...anticipating a certain reaction from the public...then they offer their solution whic was their goal in the first place. The crazy part is that the people end up believing the solution was their idea and then clammor for it.

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control...Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent." Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets.

John Kennedy was speaking to Columbia University and said something to the effect that The office of president is being used to foment a plot against the American people and I must warn them of their plight before I leave office. This speech was given ten days before he was murdered.

As soon as things alluding to illuminati, freemasonry, communist infiltration and the like are used in trying to highlight Lyme, it's current testing shortcomings, (diagnosis), treatment, etc - I think that nobody would listen, and the 'Lyme community' would be in a worse position that we're in now in terms of not getting any respect.

It is unfortunate that serious issues such as any Lyme coverup get jumbled up with things that are bordering on 'down the rabbit hole', David Icke, type stuff (UFO's, reptilians, Planet X, polar shifts, etc). Going down that road just starts to blur everything and I think a lot of it is pure fantasy. But, that's just my opinion having read quite a bit of it.

I have to stay out of the political theories arena, as much as I would lik to participate, I am too sick to come out and play todya.

When I had testing done mycoplasma showed up. I didn't think it was a big deal becasue I thought I just have to kick the lyme first. But it sounds as though I am being too casual about it.

What kind of treatment do I need for this?

Ticktox, what am I supposed to say to someone who says, "I'll try to read it someday" and then starts talking as if he's already read it and knows what it's about.

YOu think you're asking a rhetorical question:
"Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk."

Yes of course. Their reasoning was, esp in gulf war #1, that they didn't have enough vaccine to protect everybody, so if they used squalene, they could strengthen it, use less, and vaccinate everybody. It is indeed "collateral" damage when some of those vets get ill and stay ill. I was dicussing this with someone who had no pity for the vets, saying, being a soldier is risky business and you can die, and they signed on for it. I'm not sure I agree because that ignores social pressures, in certain environments, becoming a soldier is one of the few ways some kids can make a decent and 'honorable' living, and there may be peer pressure, and they may be completely naive about the consequences. But in any case, even if it is a choice and risky business, those vets should be taken care of, and they haven't been. There has been a lot of denial.

It really annoys me you won't even look at the book, so I will shrug you off now, like a tick, lol.

As for our gov't being overrun by communists, I think I made it pretty clear in an earlier post that if we have been compromised it probably is by a relatively small number of mostly non-elected officials in important places of authority and decision making.

As for the fact that Lyme is rampant in the former Soviet states, my response is so. No one ever accused the communists of caring about their own people either. And no I never said Poland or the other former Soviet states are faking capitalism. It is real. What I essentially said is that the Soviet leaders took a step back to take two steps forward later. Addition by subtraction as it were.

I think some of Daystar's points are valid as well. This could all be part of a new world order, again perpetrated on us by a relatively small group of powerful people from various countries.

What I don't think it is is our own government deliberately poisoning its own people as some strategic part of its biowarfare program. My point throughout my posts is that it is not simply our own government turning on us but rather some rogue element within our government doing this as part of some grander plan.

You think Maggie Thatcher was some kind of heroine? She was prime minister during many long years of Lyme coverup here. She was a great admirer of Ronald Reagan, who also presided over many long years of Lyme coverup (I presume you love him too, or was he too "communist" for you? LOL)

If you want to know about Thatcher, you ought to come here and talk to people who were around when she was prime minister. She was called "Thatcher, the Milk-Snatcher" because one of her first actions was to take away the free pint of milk that poor schoolchildren were entitled to. I've just finished reading a book about her.

In the 80's she made the streets of Britain's major cities look like Charles Dickens' era overnight, by taking away the right of unemployed 16-17 year olds to receive welfare benefits if they had no job. In the past, kids this age who lived in abusive families and had been forced to run away could find a bedsit and have their rent paid, plus a little money to live on, till they could find a job (not easy for a 16 year old wuith no experience, who left home with just the clothes on his/her back). Then Thatcher changed the law, and they all ended up on the streets homeless, begging, used as prostitutes or slaves to the drug gangsters.

Except for the lucky few who found a way out, I am guessing that most of them are dead by now - AIDS, smack overdose, assault, TB, exposure, suicide, etc.. Life expectancy on the streets is not very long, and 35 would be a ripe old age.

But to get back on topic. It doesn't take a sage to understand that your beloved "market forces" are what drives Kaiser and BCBS and all the other insurance companies to tell Lymies to go to hell. What do you think Maggie Thatcher would say (if she can tear herself away from defending her son who is up to his neck in financial scandal at the moment)? She would say:

"Screw the Lymies, long live the clever entrepreneurs!!!"

All this talk about a joint capitalist-communist conspiracy which has taken over the US army is ridiculous, and highly reminiscent of old Hitler propaganda from the 30's and 40's.

The fact that the EIS have been able to enforce the Steere camp viewpoint across the entire US, and much of the rest of the world, in the face of all logic and scientific fact, shows clearly that this is not a matter of a few "foreign infiltrators" influencing policy, but a decision that has come right from the top.

So, going by your (pretzel) logic, you'd have to say more than just "communists are trying to take over America", you'd have to say "America is run by communists right now".

But maybe that IS your belief, in which case you are so far out to lunch, you are somewhere between breakfast and dinner next week.

Marjorie Tietjen, I hear what you say about the Iraqi scientist at Plum messing around with mycoplasma. It would not surprise me at all. But that does not indicate any "communist" leadership of Plum Island, much less of America's biowarfare as a whole. That's absurd.

It's common knowledge that the US, UK, France etc supplied WMD materials to Iraq. They did it to bolster up Iraq against the soviet-backed Iran. Do you hear me? They gave Saddam these horrific weapons in order to strengthen him AGAINST communism.

I don't know why you have to go to such bizarre lengths to escape the truth - our own lovely governments, our own generals, are what did this to us. Not deliberately, IMO. But whatever the origin of the Lyme epidemic - leak at Plum, badly designed experiment that went wrong, cold war attack by soviet bloc, rebound from western attack on soviet bloc, etc, etc - two things are clear.

One, the whole matter of Lyme and associated tick-borne disease is a matter of HUGE interest to the military (hence the disproportionate number of Steere camp swine who are biowarmen.)

Two, the military top brass have a motive to make the public believe that Lyme is hard to catch, easy to cure, and in general, not a big problem. Along with this, they seek to control all research into the science of Lyme, and persecute any doctors who don't toe the line.

These two things are provable, and once we make that proof widely available, we should begin to be able to change things, even if we can't yet prove exactly what has caused this epidemic.

To expose that the Steere camp is run by military, and by scientists with glaring conflicts of interest with insurance and other industries, will begin to open the door to change. There is no need to spin ridiculous yarns about America being run by communists, which will get the door shut right in our faces by fellow Lymies, never mind anyone else.

As for the idea of "how could our good American generals do this to us" - well, how did they do all the 1001 things they have done, both to their own troops and to US civilians, in the name of military research? what about the Tuskegee experiment ,done by CDC during McCarthy times (ok, let me guess, McCarthy was really a closet communist, right?)

What about the soldiers lured into blowing their brains out with LSD?

What about the vets contaminated by Agent Orange?

OK, let me guess, the Viet Cong was running America in the 70's and Agent Oranged and napalmed themselves so nobody would ever guess they had taken over Nixon's brain, right?

Gimme a break.

Can we get back to planet earth now, please?

The post below is by "ChuckpAdams", a Steere camp provocateur who has been hanging out on sci.med.diseases.lyme for some years. I also had the "pleasure" of several private conversations with him, because he used to Instant-Message me to harass me whenever he could, once I began to speak out about the fraud.

There is ABSOLUTELY no doubt in my mind that this man (whom I have reason to believe is one of the millions of internet personas of Ed McSweegan, but I won't go into that now)-is ULTRA-PATRIOTIC. It is crystal clear to me that he believes that what he has been involved in, ie mass persecution of the Lyme community when he was Lyme programme officer at NIH, plus his role as a bioweapons expert - was for the good of America.

I base this not only on my private chats with him, (there's one in particular where he recited a bizarre poem to me about the US Marines being invincible, about his rifle being part of his soul, etc etc), but also on things like his post below.

Reading his post, we get a glimpse of the mindset we are dealing with, at least in some of them. I won't say all, because I don't believe that all the Steere camp are quite as �$%$�$%ed up as this man. I think generally they are more pragmatic than him, ie it's not that they all enjoy mass murder so much (though doubtless some do), it's just that they believe that it's the patriotic, strategically necessary thing to do.

No one could read this and think that the man is not a patriotic American. He is ULTRA-patriotic, but also totally, utterly insane, (which, as with Hitler, often goes hand in hand). Reading this, it's really not hard to see how he could be so callously indifferent to the hundreds of thousands of Lymie "collateral damage". Here it is below.

Lisa

From: Chuck P Adams ([email protected])

Subject: The Glory of war. Patton,Bush, Iraq and beyond

View this article only

Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme

Date: 2004-03-12 15:23:03 PST

When I was a kid, I liked vaporizing ants with hammers and burning them with magnifying glasses, acting like a microcosmic god delivering slow or fast death upon ants.

Like the thrill of victory or the taste of good food, a person can know it, and call it "good" or "fun," but words can't convey feelings to those who've not felt them.

Fun. That simple word stands for many things, including glory, thrill, and "just for the hell of it." Our need for it is in our guts and in our genes. Our ancestors have sought fun all the way back to the time when they were molecules and single atoms. If there is a Purpose to life, maybe it is to enjoy ourselves, have fun.

But fun isn't always premised on good times and prettiness. It is often death and suffering, conquered nations or tribes, dead women and children.

It is mostly regarded as crazy to assert that the prospects of war or economic collapse or natural disaster are exciting and fun to contemplate, to examine, confront; that it is wonderful to have been scared out of your wits, to have dealt with the situation, and to have survived to tell about the thrill of it all. Such a thrill is for many people a memorable high point in life.

Many human beings, most male human beings, seem to be born with this desire. And we are effectively the priests of original sin, knowing how to direct physical energy to build and to destroy.

It is thrilling, and "fun" to have that power, use it, or at least fantasize about it. There is a scene in the movie Patton where George C. Scott as General Patton looks out over a battlefield at the bodies and smoldering tanks after a battle and says: "I love it so. God help me I do love it so. I love it more than life itself."

That scene, and that line, make the Patton character look insane, but it also admits a basic truth. Fun, thrill, the glory of victory in a hard-fought contest such as a war, a fist fight, an exhausting race up a steep gravelly incline, we do so love victory and its symbols: gold cups, pennants, scalps, ears, skins; a million dollars, or a billion, or more. Or The Button itself in front of you -- or devastation all around.

America's military power being used to "shock and awe" the Iraqi forces and people is instinctively attractive. Yes, it's cruel, but it sure is fun, and if you don't enjoy enough of it on TV the first time around, it'll be fun to watch on the History Channel for years to come.

"So George W., now be honest please: why do you want to attack Iraq?"

"Well, . . . to be as honest as I can, I wanna kill that mother****er."

"Why, George?"

"Because I have the power to do it. Because I am the most powerful human being ever -- and that is true! I wanna do it because it'll be fun, and God help me, I will love it so."

That's acceptable as a reason for this war.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
[B]......YOu think you're asking a rhetorical question:
"Do you honestly believe that our own loyal military leaders would knowingly do something that could and will so weaken so many of our soldiers and place this country at risk."

Yes of course. Their reasoning was, esp in gulf war #1, that they didn't have enough vaccine to protect everybody, so if they used squalene, they could strengthen it, use less, and vaccinate everybody. It is indeed "collateral" damage when some of those vets get ill and stay ill. I was dicussing this with someone who had no pity for the vets, saying, being a soldier is risky business and you can die, and they signed on for it. ...B]

---