posted
the Andrographitis is working..I can feel it hitting ares never touched by other meds...
I am definately herxing now from it!
Anyone else using Andrographitis at the moment? Any input?
daniella
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Marnie
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posted
Okay...I just spent an hour researching it...interesting.
Do you have access to anyone who would know the chemical formula for this herb? I would REALLY like to know.
Is anything else in the pill you are taking?
Bio Essence brand or other?
When someone reports here that something helps, I am interested to try to figure out WHY or HOW it is possible. Just curious!
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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What are you targeting? Lyme disease, co-infections, or both?
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Stephen Buhner recommends it for lyme (Healing Lyme book) and Seven Forests Herbs has it in their formula as well.
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livinlyme
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posted
I just order some cheaper than samento ,,,, I will post update later
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5dana8
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posted
Thanks so much for posting this herb>Glad to hear it is working .Will try sometime in the near future. Thanks for sharing bset wishes dana
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Marnie
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posted
From the link provided...a quick look (later will study more):
"Antipyretic and Antiinflammatory Effects Andrographolide, neoandrographolide, deoxyandrographolide and 1 4-deoxy- 11,12-didehydroandrographolide
***reduced the fever in rabbits caused by typhoid and paratyphoid vaccine, and in rats
***caused by 2,4-dinitrophenol"
That's where I stopped dead in my tracks.
Reduced fever caused by 2,4-dinitrophenol...an extremely stong acid...in a class with cyanide...this is DNP kids. Ya know...ICHT...they GAVE that powerful acid.
This herb looks to work the OPPOSITE...reducing acids, toxins, neg. charges.
So far...looking good.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
Marnie ...lol can you please translate any or all of that into simple talk for me...lol
I have become medically educated having lyme but you are way over my head..
thanks daniella
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livinlyme
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posted
okay which did you get the pills or tablets?
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posted
livinlyme..I got the pills the one that was $6.12..that was the one the dr. said to try.
I am herxing big time today...it is definately working..
daniella
-------------------- ~Things may happen in my life time to change who I am but I refuse to let them reduce me...~ Posts: 968 | From private | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
All... How often and for how long do you take these? Did the doctor say they interacted negatively with other ABX ??
I'm interested in trying, but am a little hesitant about mixing it in with my current abx
-------------------- Bill
**Question everything...it may save your life!!!** Posts: 80 | From ATLantic Seaboard | Registered: Aug 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: From the link provided...a quick look (later will study more):
"Antipyretic and Antiinflammatory Effects Andrographolide, neoandrographolide, deoxyandrographolide and 1 4-deoxy- 11,12-didehydroandrographolide
***reduced the fever in rabbits caused by typhoid and paratyphoid vaccine, and in rats
***caused by 2,4-dinitrophenol"
That's where I stopped dead in my tracks.
Reduced fever caused by 2,4-dinitrophenol...an extremely stong acid...in a class with cyanide...this is DNP kids. Ya know...ICHT...they GAVE that powerful acid.
This herb looks to work the OPPOSITE...reducing acids, toxins, neg. charges.
So far...looking good.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Andrographis is the herb of Andrographis paniculata, a flowering plant in the Acanthaceae family. The perennial grows wild in thickets throughout south Asia, although it also may be cultivated. In summer and autumn, clusters of small white flowers appear; it is harvested when the flowers begin to bloom. It is traditionally valued as an herbal remedy in China, where it grows in the Guangdong, Guangxi, Fujian, Yunnan, Sichuan, Jiangsu, and Jianxi provinces.
In Mandarin, andrographis is called chuan xin lian, Yi jian xi and Lan he lian, which translate directly as "thread-the-heart lotus." The Cantonese term is chyun sam ling, and the Japanese call it senshinren. English common names include green chiretta, heart-thread lotus leaf, and kariyat. Its pharmaceutical names, used to distinguish it as a medicine, are Herba Andrographitis Paniculatae or alternately Folium Andrographis.
General use
Practitioners of Chinese medicine believe that andrographis affects the large intestine, lung, stomach, bladder, and liver meridians, or energy pathways in the body. It is thought to dispel heat (such as that associated with fever or infection) and is used primarily as a broad-spectrum antibiotic and immunostimulant for a variety of bacterial, viral, and parasitic conditions, including influenza, intestinal infections, hepatitis, pneumonia, and infected wounds. Andrographis's medicinal properties are considered very bitter, astringent, cold, dry, and stimulating.
Andrographis is considered most effective for conditions associated with fever, inflammation, and the formation of pus. It clears heat and relieves "fire toxicity" manifest as sores and carbuncles on the skin. It is also applied topically for snakebite and eczema. Under the supervision of a qualified practitioner, it is used as a uterine stimulant and abortive, to bring on miscarriage or treat prolonged pregnancy or retained placenta.
Andrographis can also be used as an inexpensive substitute for another Chinese herb, coptis (huang lian).
Research on andrographis has generally been conducted in China and has focused on pharmacological investigation. Studies indicate that andrographis cultivated in the plains of Shanghai has significant immune stimulating and anti-infective qualities. In vitro, it inhibits the growth of Diplococcus pneumoniae and other bacteria and delays the deterioration of embryonic renal cells caused by a virus.
Major chemical ingredients include andrographan, andrographolide, neoandrographolide, paniculide A, 14-deoxy-11-oxyandrographolide, and beta-sitosterol.
Preparations
Andrographis is not generally available in American health food stores, but it can be found at most Chinese pharmacies and Asian groceries.
The standard dose ranges from 10-15 grams as a decoction (strong tea) or 2-5 milliliters as a tincture. Powder doses range from 0.6 to 1.2 grams. Because the herb is extremely bitter, it's recommended that powder be taken in capsule form.
Practitioners of Chinese medicine commonly combine andrographis in patent formulas along with other Chinese herbs. The following are the major herbs with which it is combined and the symptoms for which the combinations are prescribed.
Pericarpium Citri Reticulatae (Citrus reticulata, Chen pi) for cough associated with Lung heat.
Herba et Radix Houttuyniae Cordatae ( Houttuynia cordata, yu xing cao) and Semen Benincasae Hispidae (Benincasa hispida, dong gua ren cao) for Lung abcess.
Flos Lonicerae Japonicae (Lonicera japonica, jin yin hua) and Radix Platycodonis Grandiflori (Platycodon grandiflorum, jie geng) for early stages of a disease with fever and sore throat.
Herba Portulacae Oleraceae (Portulacca oleracea, ma chi xian ) for dysentery.
Radix et folium Polygoni Cuspidati (Polygonum cuspidatum, hu zhang) and Rhizoma Imperatae
Cylindricae(Imperata cylindrical var. major, bai mao gen) for hot, painful urinary disfunction.
Precautions
According to tradition, andrographis is never used in cases of deficient, cold intestinal conditions. When used long-term or in large doses, this bitter and cold herb may damage stomach qi, causing gastric distress and loss of appetite.
Andrographis is also capable of producing a miscarriage, and thus should be avoided by pregnant women unless otherwise directed by a knowledgeable practitioner.
Side effects
Gastric distress and loss of appetite have been noted when the herb is taken in large doses.
Interactions
No interactions with pharmaceutical drugs have been noted.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
The bottles clearly say...not for longterm use!!!
And yes...definitely can cause miscarriage.
The "unfamiliar" herbs concern/worry me...many of them. Much more potent than we realize...and this one looks to be very potent if it can counteract DNP.
I was hoping (when enlarging the diagram) to find 16 hydrogens, not 17. The eyesight is going...
Tree...what's with the "do unto others"? Are you pro or con this herb? Why? I value your judgement.
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posted
Marnie..I think that ia his signature.. what does it mean in laymans terma Marnie? ANd yes herbs are powerful and I am by no means telling anyone to try this yet.
I was just excited that something was working!
daniella
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posted
daniella, Also, which dr. suggested you take it? - Mike
Posts: 153 | From Watertown, CT USA | Registered: Feb 2004
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livinlyme
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posted
WARNING**** Also, because andrographis may stimulate gallbladder contraction, it should not be used by individuals with gallbladder disease except under physician supervision.
http://www.ahealthyadvantage.com/topic/topic100587730 my concern here is not that this herb may cause the distress but rather that the distress may already be present and when taking this herb exacerbates the end result which maybe failure of the GB..
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livinlyme
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livinlyme
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posted
Daniella, I really think you have stumbled onto something here...
I am going to cycle it like 2 weeks on then 4 weeks off then 2 weeks on then 4 weeks off.. and see what happens since it is suggested not to stay on it long term..
this way it will give them keets a kick in the teeth and then allow them to come back out and play (if they hide from it) and then kick them some more! and then some more, and then some more.. I think it makes more sense than to hammer them all at once cause if they hide.... I dont want them to hide the whole while I'm on it and then they all come back out to play when i stop takeing it... I want to keep surprising them until there are none to surprise anymore!!
Some LLMD's use this in treatment too... there is a professional term for it..
cant think.. but anyway since it can cause adverse affects on the body from long term use i think to cycle it may be moer effective
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posted
Just ordered it. I'll keep everyone posted. Thanks soooo much for the tip. I learn so much here everyday! Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I had to lighten up on my dose. Herxing really hard now!...yeah
take care, daniella
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JRWagner
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Member # 3229
posted
Daniella,
No offense, but I see you are taking three ABX, including IV Rocephin. There is absolutely no way for you to say with any scientific certainty that it is not the ABX kicking in, rather than this new herb. You have nothing to compare with...ie.,too many variables. It may just be coincidental that you feel something is happening when you started taking the herb. In reality the ABX could be the reason for your "Herx" reaction.
I would tread lightly with untested, upproven herbs. I too saw Dr. H when he was prescribing, and profiting from Zhang's Herbs and they did absolutely nothing.
The problem here is that these herbs are not tested under double blind conditions, nor have they been reviewed by any credible scientific body in the US. I know of absolutely no one who has been helped (other than by placebo effect) by Chinese Herbs.
People on ABX often need to be on them for considerable time before they feel any improvement. Stay on them as long as you can!
Marnie...please email me...watch out for WILMA!!!!!
Treepatrol...man, you rock bro'!
How are YOU feeling?
Peace, love and wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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posted
JR, Thanks for your 2 cents...but...I do know it is the herb that is causing the herx..
..Also, others who are experiencing the same have private messaged me..
It is working whether you want to believe it is or not..and it is not Dr. Zhangs herbs and Dr. H is not pushing this...Please don't rain on my parade and make this a negative thing...
thanks..
I hope you get well also..
daniella
-------------------- ~Things may happen in my life time to change who I am but I refuse to let them reduce me...~ Posts: 968 | From private | Registered: Jan 2005
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livinlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3773
posted
OKay got mine today one dose and WHOP! my back is burning like it is on fire.. I can hardly type right now it has become so tense.. so I guess the playground is my back. which explains my back pain lately.. WELL looks like they are meeting with their match now!
so far stomach is okay thought that would be acting up.. my lungs were clearer like the first 2 hours after taking it,, but now they are filling again.... I willpsot every other day or so to keep a journal and let people know if it is worth the attempt...
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quote:Originally posted by livinlyme: OKay got mine today one dose and WHOP! my back is burning like it is on fire.. I can hardly type right now it has become so tense.. so I guess the playground is my back. which explains my back pain lately.. WELL looks like they are meeting with their match now!
so far stomach is okay thought that would be acting up.. my lungs were clearer like the first 2 hours after taking it,, but now they are filling again.... I willpsot every other day or so to keep a journal and let people know if it is worth the attempt...
"Many compounds do not penetrate the blood-brain barrier. However, andrographolide does so and concentrates in the brain and particularly in the spinal cord. (7). Several studies have shown that AP products have a sedative effect. In mice given barbital as anesthesia, the animals became sedated more quickly and the anesthesia lasted longer. Also, it was possible to give less of the anesthesia if it was given along with AP. (19). The studies indicate that AP products may act at the barbital receptors in the brain."
I'd recommend serious uptake of fluids and some detox protocols. If this stuff is hitting reservoirs of BB along the spine etc., you're in for some serious nuerotoxin inflammation and pain.
posted
I've had to back WAY off on this herb..Herxing is quite severe. I have company coming Sunday so I need to be upright until and for that day.
I will continue sunday night with a lower dose, it really is hitting TONS of stuff..but yes detox all you can if you are trying this.
It seems to be hitting everything viruses, babesia, lyme ugh. Be careful everyone..
take care of your selves, daniella
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
Folks, for those taking it, read Buhner's book that recommends it. I heard a Connecticut naturopath was going to try his recommendations, maybe I'll try to find out if she has started.
JR--I hope you're doing okay----??? I have a friend in the southwest, an acupuncturist who had the big 3 (bb, babs, erlichia) for about 8 years. COnsidering all that she's done pretty well, but in any case, a Vermont friend and husband had lyme. Probably JUST lyme, but the Vermont friend had such bad arthritis from it she couldn't hold a cup etc. My friend prescribed her Zhang's herbs and she took them high dose, and so did hubby, and after 2 years is completely symptom free. I'm not enthralled with Zhang's herbs, but some DO well on herbs. And Stephen Buhner is a far cry from Zhang. Zhang overcharged obscenely for his stuff. Buhner is not packaging these herbs--he's just recommending a protocol, and he's a highly respected herbalist who "cured" (ie remission) of hep C with herbs.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
OK I just ordered mine...and what finally caused me to was the post that "welcome" entered.
I have been on several combos, and some have been more effective than others. I feel, however, that I've sort of reached a plateau with the improvement of the symptoms.
Most of my symptoms are Neuro, centered in the back-right quadrant of the brain, in my neck, and down to the Thoracic region of my spine. I have occasional muscular/tendon pain, but the spine/brain has most of the issues.
I'll be crossing my fingers that this stuff works as this Topic trail indicates. I will let you know
B
-------------------- Bill
**Question everything...it may save your life!!!** Posts: 80 | From ATLantic Seaboard | Registered: Aug 2005
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Marnie
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Member # 773
posted
Hummm...causes gallbladder contraction. The gall bladder stores bile and dumps it when we eat fats to aid in breaking them down. It also chelates heavy metals...to prevent them from being recirculated. Bile ACIDS....
The gall bladder should dump...to avoid building up "sludge".
JR...
Wilma...am watching...and preparing, but we do live inland in a non-evacuation zone. Our house was built to hurricane standards 5 years ago and we have hurricane film on our windows. And now...another depression forming...will be "Alpha". IMO...should skip Alpha and call it Beta...negative, not positive!
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livinlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3773
posted
I believe I am safe in using this since my GB was removed 5 years ago... I would suggest other who still have their GB get a through check first..
Now I'm starting to focus on this Pineal gland cysts most people have them and they are most often benign.. I have suffered seizures from age 13-21 and they have questioned nocturnal seizures more recently about 3 years ago.. I have also had headaches chronic never ending for most all of my life since I was a teen I am now 44...
but what concerns me is that my father had a "FATTY WHEN" on his back and the doctors told him nothing would come of it,, it would just remain there and do nothing.. after being treated for Lyme for 3 months the thing POPPED! it discharged about a 1/2 cup of puss like substance in the form of spaghetti out of this what seemed to be a lump in his back the size of a golf ball...
I know this was graphic but what happened to him after that is even worse and I will not go into that part unless I feel there is some form of relevance.. I am just finding that so many people have so many similar complaints and if there is a strong connection why do they say that the symptoms arent related to the issue in question.. and they have no known cause known.. I hate that phrase the most "Cause Unknown" or "unknown origin"! Do more research on what people tell you then .. DUH!~
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livinlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
OKay on the third day I have noticed my lungs clear up for a couple hours after taking it ... then they fill again .. but nice to know it does help my breathing for a short while and hopefully it will improve with time..
I am getting those old "growing pains" I used to get when I was a kid ( when i think my body still tried to fight) I think this is herxing effects.. my back is not hurting as much only in the area where I had my surgery... and the burning is most intense after taking the tablets.. but I find I get a pulling feeling in the back around the surgery area and pressue which feels like the titanium cage is pushing out my skin not sure if I haven't dislodged it but I wont worry unless I get more severe symptoms.. so far I can't complain
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posted
What is the Mg dosage per capsule for the Bio-Essence brand? Can't seem to find it.
Posts: 294 | From nevada | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
my pa gave me a sheet from the patient who was trying it and it was 6-7 tablets 5-6 times aday.
I was doing that but Whoah! mega herx..so I am down to 3-4 a day 3x a day until I can slowly work my way up..
I don't see a dose on the bottle either, maybe if you called them they could tell you..
daniella
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posted
I got the herbs in the mail but haven't received Kushner's book yet? How much are you all taking. I wont start until I get a more definite answer from you or the book. I'm excited! Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
When you get the book can you print the info on here for dosing chronic?,,,,,thanks.....
daniella
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: The bottles clearly say...not for longterm use!!!
And yes...definitely can cause miscarriage.
The "unfamiliar" herbs concern/worry me...many of them. Much more potent than we realize...and this one looks to be very potent if it can counteract DNP.
I was hoping (when enlarging the diagram) to find 16 hydrogens, not 17. The eyesight is going...
Tree...what's with the "do unto others"? Are you pro or con this herb? Why? I value your judgement.
Not pro or con the do unto others is just my signature you know in your profile.
Signature: Signatures can appear at the bottom of your posts. This option may be disabled by the message board administrators at any time, however. You may use UBB Code� in your signature, but not HTML. UBB Code� Images are permitted.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by JRWagner: Treepatrol...man, you rock bro'!
How are YOU feeling?
Peace, love and wellness, JRW
Feeling better now I had to start abx's again after 11 months off I think either I caught it back from wife or didnt fully get it the last time. Now that I started taking ibuprophen again aches gone away.Really getting fed up with trips to llmd sick of the driving and the wallet drain from abx's suppliments.
Other than that Iam here How you doing JR
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Yes, I will post the dosage according to the book. My Bio Essence bottle says 6-8 pills, 2-3 times daily. I'm gonna start way under that though. Thanks! Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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livinlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3773
posted
Update: I have the 120 tabs..(36gm)says to taek 3-5 tabs 2 or 3 times a day i started at 3 tabs once a day.. to be safe on herx... and stomach upset...trust me it is upset enough... I was taking everyday and missed one day then I missed the other day also I was on the road all day on a mission to help a friend in south Florida.. I missed taking them and wish I had thought enough to take them when i got home. they arent a miracle cure but they seem to be helping.. it does help the breathing I can attest to that much.. and I get those "growing pains" like I used to when i was a kid.. I really think it does boost the immmune response so I am going to keep taking for another week and then stopp for 4 weeks and kick back in on them for 2 weeks..no major side effects so far.. Linda
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I haven't forgotten to post the dosage according to Kushner. His book is great and very clear about dosages but I have to try to get clear on what dosage this Bio-Essence product is. I'm trying to contact them through their website. For now, I just take a couple a day and don't want to steer anyone wrong.
Welcome--I saw you had the same issue. Did you figure anything out? Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
no chronic...I was told you could take up to7-8 5-6 times a day. You have to take enough so it will go into thte brain..
but I only had this written as a note on a piece of paper nener actually saw the dose from the book, keep us informed..
-------------------- ~Things may happen in my life time to change who I am but I refuse to let them reduce me...~ Posts: 968 | From private | Registered: Jan 2005
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posted
Okay, I got the book and have read this several times and I'm typing it straight from the book. This author is very thorough and there seem to be quite a few variables.
Dosage is Lyme Disease: 1-4, 400mg capsules 3-4 times daily of a preparation standardized to 10% andragrapholides. I suggest you begin with the lower dose for one week (1, 400mg capsule 3-4 times daily)to allow your GI tract to get used to the herb. Gradually increase dosage to maximum, (4, 400mg capsules 3-4 times daily) every seven days, i.e. after seven days take two capsules 3 times daily, then three, then four, then four capsules 4 times daily. Maintain this dosage for at least 60 days. If GI tract symptoms occur (nausea and so on) reduce the dose and allow your body more time to adjust. The amount of herb being taken can be reduced once Lyme symptoms decrease in severity, to three 400 mg capsules 4 times daily and then to two 400mg capsules 4 times daily and so on. The herb should be taken for 8-12 months in the treatment of Lyme or until the disease is either under control or eradicated.
The author suggests a standardized version of 10% but says some older preparations have 4-6% andrographolides. I'm still trying to find out from BioEssence what there product has.
This book is very informative and I hope this helps. Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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How can you possibly say "it is working"? You can't distinguish between a herx or an interaction that may have nothing to do with Lyme. The point you should say it's working is when you are feeling better. All of us feel like crap when we take certain things and it's not always a herx. Still, I look forward to seeing you post about the positive outcomes if they happen.
-------------------- Gregory Posts: 373 | From Southern California | Registered: Jun 2003
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posted
Welcome, Thanks for the post, I was just starting to research other brands! I appreciate the short cut.
Posts: 460 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2005
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