Topic: Stephen Buhner--JimBob, Lymied, Daystar etc
oxygenbabe
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I am interested in his approach, only waiting to hear results, a naturopath in Connecticut began using the herbs on some patients in the autumn. I need to hear results before I embark on herbs I don't understand and without guidance. Someone else here posted a few days after starting that it was working and did not post again. Stephen Buhner himself doesn't really treat lyme, he has treated his own hepC and he is obviously very knowledgeable, nonetheless, the herbs are theoretical at this point. Thus I would like to hear how people do over a period of months. Andrographis is included in the Isatis6 formula--there is a Chinese herbal formula, or af ew for lyme and a friend of mine who is an acupuncturist and herbalist is doing them, however, she has a background in this and can self-treat. Many of the other herbs in the formulas she is taking are different than Buhner's.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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I am in the same boat as you in regards to not wanting to embark with Buhner's treatment without some guidance from an herbalist.
Keep me posted of any info. you may here on those CT patients.
Turns out I just met a woman who knows Stephen personally and is a master herbalist herself...so I may try to schedule a phone consult with him if he is willing.
As well, I know a local accupuncturist who is treating lyme patients with other Chinese herbs. I talked a little with him and he explained how the herbs he uses are processed using very different processes...
He said that he hasn't had a ton of luck with chronic lyme patients yet...basically just keeping the ketes at bay but no one is able to say they are cured. Keeping them at bay though is good.
So I will wait until I gather a bit more info. as well.
Take care and Happy Holidays!
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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daystar1952
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I've heard that the book is excellent and have ordered one. It's probably too soon to have known anyone on the protocol long enough to know whether it works. The....perhaps it's like any other protocol...what works for some doesn't necessarily work for others. I've heard some of the herbs are difficlt to get.
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JimBoB
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HI To Daystar: The herbs for the main protocol are NOT difficult to get at all. Just a matter of HOW much you want to pay and IF you are agreeable to get them on the internet.
I get MOST of mine, now, from Herbs-Wholesale out of Torrence, California. Though I have had good results from other places. Buhner, gives sources in his book, Healing Lyme.
To the REST of you, even STEVEN BUHNER does NOT say that HERBS are the ONLY thing to do for Lyme. He, though, does say, that even though Antibiotics are far and away TOO MUCH used in THIS country for healing or TRYING to heal, he DOES recommend using antibiotics ALONG WITH Herbs to "cure" this thing. He ALSO says, that MANY are NEVER cured by antibiotics from CHRONIC Lyme, and for those, HERBS IS the answer.
I PERSONALLY have been on herbs since November, 25th and can ATTEST to the FACT that they not only WORK, but work fantastically; at least for me. (And "I" was at a point just prior to that that I did NOT think I would see 2006, much less by 65th birthday in June of 2006). THAT is HOW BAD I felt. And I have been in THIS body for well over 64 years, and DO have some idead HOW I feel NOW and HOW I SHOULD feel.
Let me tell YOU ALL, that I did not look forward to even living much longer the past few months. But NOW I have HOPE of a DECENT life ahead.
AM I PERFECT? Heck no. Not even close, but feel probably at least a hundred times better than I did before I started the herbs. AND this was ONLY on herbs. And not only that, but I am not even half way there, as to the maximum dosage that Buhner suggests for the 60 day + regimen.
I have NOW however started taking Tetracycline, twice a day for the past two days, along WITH the herbs. I hope MAYBE THAT will speed things up a little more. I INTEND to be "CURED" of this infliction before, this date, next year. IF not, then at least on a low maintainence of HERBS ONLY, and only a VERY minimum dosage by then.
I NEVER took herbs, to MY recollection, prior to this past 30 day stint. So I am NOT a pusher of herbs by any sort of the imagination. HOWEVER, IF this miraculous "cure" KEEPS UP, I just could become a strong proponent of herbs. Right now I am only Reporting on what is happening to ME.
I do NOT expect to get perfect, as I AM 64 years of age, AND arthritus runs VERY strongly on my mothers side of the family. MOST are in wheel chairs, by or before age 70. SO IF I can feel as good as I do NOW for the next ten years, I will be a very happy camper, indeed.
You all can saw whatever you want about Mr. Stephen Harrod Buhner, but I can attest that he definitely "KNOWS" what he is doing when it comes to herbs. JUST because he may or may not be licensed to prescribe different medicines, does NOT mean that he does NOT have tremendous knowledge.
Oxygenbabe: YOU say treating with herbs is STILL theoretical. HOW can YOU say THAT? I say, BULL. IT WORKS!!! PERIOD! Antibiotics it appears to me at least, is MORE theoretical than the herbs. I have heard of many on THIS list who have been on antibiotics for many, many years, and STILL are NOT cured. Many others seem to be cured, but MANY have had relapses, also. I personally have had too great of results to ever believe that they don't really, REALLY work. It is a matter of getting on the RIGHT protocol and STICKING WITH IT.
I am going to even ADD SOME THINGS to Stephen Buhner's suggestions. I PERSONALLY have found that Devil's Claw, is one of the BEST herbs in his protocol for ELIMINATING the symptoms of BRAIN FOG, BAD, bad VISION, Headaches, and arthritus inflamation and pain. I wasn't even going to take it at first, because of ITS NAME. But thought I would give it a try, at least. And BOY, am I GLAD that I did.
IT SURELY worked WONDERS with ME!!!
I NOW take my herbs three times a day. In the morning and afternoon I take: 2 each of Andrographis, Devils Claw, Cats Claw, Resveratrol, Smilax, and Stephania Root. I do NOT take Devils Claw in the night time, as IT produces TOO much gas for my system when I am sleeping. Otherwise I take two of each of the others, in the evening. Also, I take One Male Response, OR one Viramax three times a day. NOT both. THEY have helped SOME. AND, NOW I am taking ONE 250mg Tetracycline TWICE a day for the past couple of days, and will continue with that for 3 or 4 weeks, before switching to either doxycycline or amoxicillin for another 3 or 4 weeks. At which time I HOPE to be done with antibiotics. During this time, I also intend to increase my herbs from the two capsules each time up to 4 capsules, three times a day.
I will maintain the strong herb dosage for either two or three months, depending on HOW I feel. Remember ONLY I can tell how I feel. NO doctor, no matter HOW GOOD he/she is, can do that to ANYONE but themselves. AND everyone of THEM are guessing, just like the rest of us. SOME have slightly better educated guesses than others, but still experimenting just the same.
Remember, ONLY YOU can prevent this forest fire of Lyme in YOUR body.
posted
I want to add to my previous post. I forgot to mention that IF you are NOT taking SMILAX no matter IF you are on herbs or NOT, take it. IT is a GREAT blood cleanser, AND it will help you from HERXING SO BAD, like so many of you do.
Smilax is Sarsaparilla Root. IT has been used practically forever for MANY ailments, such as a blood cleanser, arthritus, skin disorders, syphillus, fever, digestive disorders, asthma, cancer, type 2 diabetes, dysentary, etc..
ALSO, IF you are taking antibiotics, take acidophilus as a tonic for cleaning your liver of all the bad toxins. I just ordered mine today.
oxygenbabe
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JimBob, geez...I am saying that his protocol is based on theory, not fact, and let's see what naturopaths and herbalists report when using it on their chronic lyme patients. Dr Zhang came out with a whole protocol years ago and it had some good effect in some, bad for others, and none at all in others. I am a wait and see type person. I'm glad you feel better tho.
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My wife and I have been on herbs only, since March, 2004. We primarily use Cat's Claw, Sarsaparilla, Seven Forest Formulas #6 & 18 for sprio- chetes, silver, garlic, pau d'arco, olive leaf extract, artemisinin, grape seed extract, teasel and a few other herbs. After heavy neuro involvement we have no symptoms now and are about ready to test again with IgeneX and Bowen.
We apparently just had Lyme with no co-infections. Initially we used a lot of cleansing herbs like Triphala and Rainbow Light Candida formula to help with the toxin elimination.
We are fine now and hope others will benefit as well. I'm a nutritionist (M.Ed) and my wife and I both have always had an interest in using herbs to insure good health, as well as in chronic conditions where a healthier immune system provides the best defense.
Blue Skies..........John
Posts: 134 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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happy to hear of the positive effect of your regimen. sounds like you made a significant break through; got through a major imppasse of some kind. excellent!
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Carol in PA
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I just started reading Buhner's book. I am looking forward to trying this. I already have had nondescript experiences with some other supplements that were supposed to be helpful, but didn't help me.
Jim, you sure are enthusiastic. I'm not finished with the book yet, but I'm going to draw up a plan and order from iHerb.
I already had a bottle of Sarsaparilla. I had bought it a while back, and then never opened it. After reading what it can do, I started taking it today.
Regarding your use of Devil's Claw. Did you start taking it the same time as the other herbs? If you stop the devil's claw, does your pain return?
Even the people on antibiotics need to read this book. It has so much valuable information.
Carol
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klutzo
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Buhner's book is very good, though I don't feel he has the credentials vis-a-vis Lyme that Klinghardt has, for example. I have been on Samento (not regular Cat's Claw) for over a year before adding the andrographis, resveretrol and sarsaparilla. I had to drop the andrographis after only two weeks, since it caused a major allergic reaction to a substance I'd not reacted to before. It is a general immune stimulator, and being TH2 dominant like most of us, I do not need that side of my immunity stimulated. I believe if I'd been stung by a bee or fire ant during the time I was on andrographis, I would not be here to talk about it, that's how much worse my allergies were on it. I substituted with Colostrum, which only stimulates TH1 immunity, and is really helping. Andrographis also noticeably raised my already high blood pressure. I've been taking the sarsaparilla and resveretrol twice daily now for two months. I do notice somewhat less intense herxing. I plan to continue resveretrol, even if I go back to my previous protocol, since resveretrol is now proven to help prevent Alzheimer's, a darn good reason to take it, even if one did not have Lyme. Klutzo
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JimBoB
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klutzo:
So sorry to hear you can't take THE most important of the herbs to combat YOUR particular Lyme. HOWEVER, I question your statement of 'MOST of us being Th2 dominent", since those of us in LATE STAGE or CHRONIC Lyme are actually Th1 dominet, not Th2. WHERE did you get YOUR info on this particular condtion?
Actually, Andrographis IS recommended for MOST of US who are chronic Lymies. IT is Astragalus that should NOT be taken in LATE Chronic Lyme Disease. Since IT stimulates Th1 response, thus worsening symptoms. CORRECT?
I will answer more on the rest of the posts on this thread, in my next post.
IN the very beginning I took just ONE (1) Devils Claw, one (1) Smilax, (Sarsaparilla), ONE (1) Cats Claw. And like I have reported on a couple of other posts, I had tremendous gas THAT night AND it blew the wafer from my illeostomy right off my body while I was sleeping. WELL, I knew I could not afford to have that as a regular happening, because of the cost of $5.00 each. They normally last a week if taken care of properly.
SO, the NEXT day I only took the ONE, (1), Smilax at noon, and another one, (1), at about 6 p.m. and had a little gas, but not bad.
So on the Third say I only took ONE, (1), Cats Claw at noon, and ONE, (1), at 7 p.m.. With about the same results as the Smilax. All the time NOT feeling any difference in my symptoms for Lyme.
On the FOURTH day, I took ONLY one, (1), Devils Claw at 9 a.m. and one at 2:30 p.m.. With that I had quite a bit more gas, but not as much as when I took ALL THREE of only one each, on that first day. I told my wife that night, I don't think I will be taking Devils Claw anymore because of the gas in my system from it.
Well, on the FIFTH day, I woke up and only had about HALF of the PAIN in my JOINTS as the fourth day. SO I told my wife, I have to rethink this Devils Claw thing. Maybe I will just take ONE in the mornings and see IF the gas will subside BEFORE I go to bed at night. ALSO, the first devils Claw I took made me sick to my stomach. It doesn't bother me so much now. NOR as much gas either. The system needs to get used to it.
ON the sixth day I went on to take one of each of the three, that I did the first day.
On the seventh day I took 2 of smilax and Cats Claw, and only ONE of Devils Claw. About 11 hours after taking the Devils Claw that day, ALL OF A SUDDEN, my eyes were BRIGHT and CLEAR. I had had terrible brain fog, headaches, and could hardly focus my eyes for months. I actually got to be dangerous on the highway driving, so did as little as possible of that, let my wife do most of the driving, except when I went cross country hauling old cars.
I did not start taking the Andrographis until the 11th day. And only one a day at first, then one, twice a day, now two pills, three times a day.
I didn't start taking Resveratrol until the twelfth day. My vision was really good, but I did still have some neck pain and stiffness; and my tendons behind my knees were a little sore yet.
On the thirteenth day, by eye vision was still reallgood, Neck and tendons were better, and my whole body felt better.
THAT was the last day, I was writing things down. Overall I have had improvement overall, with only some minor setbacks so far. I am a little sick to my stomach as I write this, but I have been on Tetracycline for three days now, and it is almost 5 a.m. and I NEED to go to bed.
SO, I will answer rest tomorrow. Thanks, Jim.
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I've also been on Buhner's herbal protocol and have been pleased. I'm postive Lyme via Igenex (CDC positive). I couldn't get into see Dr J till 2006 but I needed help with the headache, lightheadedness and fatigue, esp.
Within two weeks on Andrographis, Resveratrol (mainly) I was not needing afternoon naps and didn't even notice poor energy. The headaches were absent. After 2-3 weeks (and adding Cat's Claw from raintree) the headaches came back (maybe that was the cat's claw herxing?). Anyhow, I had gotten hold of some Tetracycline 500 mg and began taking that 2x/day in addition.
Currently I'm on Andrographis 3 4x/d; resveratrol 2 4x/d; smilax 2 4x/d; Cats Claw 500mg 4x/d.
Buhner's recommended Resveratrol (Japanese Knotwood) from Source Natural can get expensive at the doses he recommends (I even get it half price at vitacost). Anyone doing it via bulk herb?
Buhner's book is very scientifically grounded, imo. It makes sense to me that Bb needs a couple pronged approach to eradicate the wily bug.
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oxygenbabe
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This is a very good thread. It demonstrates the truth that a cookie cutter approach probably doesn't work for most. Thats why its a good idea to see a master herbalist or naturopath to guide you in taking these herbs. Buhner's book makes good theoretical sense but we see different reports here which is what I expected some do well some don't.
The Seven Forests formula, jwf, is exactly what my friend is on I"m sure--and doing well. I may try those. They have andrographis among other things. Thanx folks and keep posting!
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JimBob THANKS! for all the great info. and your experience. I read Buhner's book a few months back and I must say I think it is one of the best writings on lyme and tick borne coinfections I have ever read.
It is obvious he has studied these bacterium and parasites extensively. It is a great explanation and I found it insightful and just as valuable as the protocols he has put together.
Please keep us posted on your progress. I plan on taking these herbs sometime soon. I want to go through a few more rounds of abx treatment and possibly try to hit up the Babs again with some pharmaceuticals with arteminisin then go the herbs route.
Pharmaceuticals would not be possible without the existence of herbs. Many have their start as compounds that are related or even are herbal. It is not a stretch at all to think that it is probably easier for our bodies to process herbs then having to break down the synthetic bonds of pharmaceuticals. Just a matter of figuring out which herbs work best for which bacteria or parasite.
I have also been contemplating the diflucan protocol because I really seemed to react well to my initial try.
Thanks again and I will keep you posted on whether I start Buhner's protocol.
Take care and I will be wishing you all better in 2006!
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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JimBoB
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Oxgenbabe: I agree that probably the "cookie Cutter" approach is NOT good for ALL of us. Unfortunately, THAT is what MOST doctors are doing right now with the antibiotics.
I would also like to say, that PROBABLY many could use the HELP of either a Master Herbalist, or naturopath to get them or keep them on the right path to better health. THAT is WHY I am using Stephen Buhner's expertise from his book to treat MY OWN Lyme Disease. SOME of you MAY need even someone else to help you along. I MAY also in the FUTURE, that will remain to be seen.
In the meantime, Buhner's BOOK guides me just fine, SO FAR. Notice I said SO FAR. Only time will tell IF I need more than the expertise in his book AND my OWN COMMON SENSE and educated guesses, (just like the MD's do), to self treat my Lyme. We ALSO HAVE To listen to our bodies in this. Sometimes our bodies know more than our brains.
It is good to hear, others are finally taking some responsibility for their bodies and actually treating themselves according to what IS working for others.
At least 40%, by conservative estimates, DO NOT respond to antibiotics, or only partially, then relapse; so there HAS to be some alternatives to at least try.
Do the DRUG COMPANIES WANT us to do THAT? Of course not. They don't make as much money that way. How about the western medical profession in general? DO THEY want us to do that? Of course not, they stand to lose patients and money to golf every Wednesday. How about insurance companies? Do they want us to treat ourselves, even IF we save them money now? Probably not, since they would lose money in the long run. More people would not need insurance. Especially when they start thinking for themselves and not be like some sheep herded into a corral of thining and actions that are conjured up by THEM. How about the politicians: They too need money from the interests that keep them in office, so naturally THEY will keep voting for things that fill THEIR pockets, not for our good in general.
Bravo for you and your wife, JWF; PLEASE keep us posted on your progress and tests. WHAT does that forest formula have in it for herbs, and percentages?
One of you all said, you don't want to take any herbs that you know little or nothing about; well, it appears you can read and write, so do like some of the rest of us and STUDY, study, study. THAT is how we become informed. The Healing Lyme book is an excellent place to start. It is very, very heavily researched and very well written. READ it, STUDY it, Study it again, and again. Go back and re-read it. Then when you know it all, go and read another book or article, etc., etc.. THEN try SOMETHING!!! You will THEN feel comfortable with the herbs.
IF you are not too sick, you may not want to do much about it. BUT if YOU are as sick as I WAS, you will JUMP at the chance to learn more and then truly DO something about it.
oxygenbabe
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Yes, let's keep this thread going or start new ones as folks on these protocols improve or have difficulties with various herbs. How else can we learn?
I think Buhner is brilliant, no quibbles about that, I only wish he had treated even five or ten lymies, because he probably would have refined the protocol through practice--even though he would have viewed each person as an individual, I think he would have ended up refining the protocol. He doesn't treat a lot of people anymore anyway, is more of a teacher, I think.
I'll check in with my acupuncturist friend and see how she's doing now on 7 Forests. She felt she was improving.
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Getting better is about listening to your own body and studying ALOT!
I gave some information to a man who was bitten by a tick and was having a hard time being diagnosed.
He took the info. to his GP and the doctor took one look at it...read through it...and looked up and said to this friend of mine...this woman who gave this to you knows more then 96% of M.D.s out there when it comes to tick borne illness.
This of course was not much of a complement
I have been studying and I am willing to try anything experimental because truth is most all the treatments out there pharmaceutical or not are still experimental.
I hear you oxygenbabe...I don't really want to be #8 in experimental trials though
One of my openminded alternative doc laughs with me when I tell him I am willing to donate my body to science because that is what it is going to take...
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JimBoB
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HI Oxygenbabe: WHY does Buhner have to have treated ANYONE? You are right in that he is a TEACHER. HE ALSO is a WRITER. You don't have time to research and write if you are spending all your time treating patients. Case in point, the MD's of our mainstream America. They only do what others before them have done, or what someone tells them to do.
HAVE you actually READ his book? Did you read the forward by Dr. Wendy L., MD? Read it again, even if you have. This is a person who HAS treated many patients. SHE BEGGED Buhner to write this book. SHE is an MD and is very impressed indeed with Buhner, and his expertise as a Master Herbalist. SHE has nothing but GOOD things to say about him. In the beginning you stated in your first post on this thread, that you wanted to WAIT until you got info from others on herbs, and that you felt it was JUST a theory, and also that YOU wanted guidance and info for herbs that YOU do NOT understand. Buhner gives us PLENTY of that. WE here on this thread have given you proof of WHAT they are doing for us. It is GREAT there is the action on this thread that there has been.
Well, I for one, and I am SURE others who have contributed to this thread, believe without a doubt that there is credance to Buhner's protocol for Lyme Disease. AND by following HIS suggestions, you DO have guidance, and NOT just in theory. In the back of his book are many, many pages upon pages of REFERENCES he gives us to WHERE he got a lot of his information. It will take hours just to really read that in depth.
THAT is what I am saying. Using HERBS to heal is NOT just a theory, it is the realist of realities. YES, we ARE ALL different in our reactions and healing time to some degree. BUT we are all still people, human creatures, who will repond in much the same way to MOST of the protocol.
Yes, others are using some different herbs than Buhners suggestions, but does THAT in itself make HIS wrong? Or is it just another way to skin a CAT (fish)?!?!?!
oxygenbabe
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by JimBoB: [QB] HI Oxygenbabe: WHY does Buhner have to have treated ANYONE?"
Come on JimBob, you are a little bit strident, I think, with your various capital letters and insistent point of view.
Why treat? Because of something that has a long tradition which is called evidence-based medicine. It has taken LLMD's a long time to arrive at protocols that are fairly effective for many folk and that was by treating thousands of patients and exchanging their results, learning about coinfections, learning what combination of drugs worked best in what populations etc.
If you come up with herbs that have helped other spirochetes or parasites or protozoa, that's great, but until you treat a patient population suffering with bugs you haven't seen before, you won't really have good evidence-based medicine of what works in terms of dosage, combination, and so on.
That's pretty obvious. YOu can be brilliant, know herbs, and have some good ideas about choices for herbs that might be effective, but theoretical knowledge does not substitute for clinical experience. If that is not obvious to you I'm sorry. Although I suspect Buhner would say each patient is individual, in an almost spiritual as well as physical sense, and that if he were treating a patient he wouldn't only treat the bug but the constitution> Which indeed is another reason you need to be overseen by an expert.
"You are right in that he is a TEACHER. HE ALSO is a WRITER. You don't have time to research and write if you are spending all your time treating patients. Case in point, the MD's of our mainstream America. They only do what others before them have done, or what someone tells them to do."
So? Does this negate the fact that until this protocol is tried among many lymies that nobody will really know how effective it is and how it might be tweaked?
"HAVE you actually READ his book?
Of course I read the book so please don't be so insulting. I not only read it, I reviewed it, and I have emailed with Buhner.
" Did you read the forward by Dr. Wendy L., MD? Read it again, even if you have. This is a person who HAS treated many patients. SHE BEGGED Buhner to write this book. SHE is an MD and is very impressed indeed with Buhner, and his expertise as a Master Herbalist. SHE has nothing but GOOD things to say about him."
Well so what? An MD I don't know who respects Buhner (as I do from a distance by the way) asks him mto write a book on lyme and he does, adn for this reason, I should accept a new protocol in a book that hasn't been tested on lots of lymies, and just adopt it wholesale for myself? NOPE. I am waiting for that Connecticut naturopath to have used it on patients for about 6 months and will check back in with her and if she finds it effective overall I will visit her and get a personalized protocol.
"In the beginning you stated in your first post on this thread, that you wanted to WAIT until you got info from others on herbs, and that you felt it was JUST a theory, and also that YOU wanted guidance and info for herbs that YOU do NOT understand."
It's not that I don't understand the herbs JIMBOB, JIMBOB, JIMBOB. It's that I do not have decades of experience with taking herbs or administering herbs to others. These are powerful complex substances with various effects and side effects, and an experience herbalist or naturopath will know better than me by reading about an herb. Capiche?
" Buhner gives us PLENTY of that. WE here on this thread have given you proof of WHAT they are doing for us. It is GREAT there is the action on this thread that there has been."
Huh? One guy had a horrible reaction to andrographis and said if he'd got a beesting would not be ALIVE TODAY TO USE ALL CAPS AS YOU DO JIMBOB JIMBOB JIMBOB. You feel, early on, that you're doing very well. Another couple combined herbs commonly recommended with 7 Forests...and are doing well...he's a nutritionist, so perhaps more familiar with use of herbs than many. And I'm sorry but a few folks does not PROOF MAKE JIMBOB JIMBOB JIMBOB.
" Well, I for one, and I am SURE others who have contributed to this thread, believe without a doubt that there is credance to Buhner's protocol for Lyme Disease. AND by following HIS suggestions, you DO have guidance, and NOT just in theory. In the back of his book are many, many pages upon pages of REFERENCES he gives us to WHERE he got a lot of his information. It will take hours just to really read that in depth.
THAT is what I am saying. Using HERBS to heal is NOT just a theory, it is the realist of realities. YES, we ARE ALL different in our reactions and healing time to some degree. BUT we are all still people, human creatures, who will repond in much the same way to MOST of the protocol."
Well you are just taking everything out of context. Basically JIMBOB JIMBOB JIMBOB I want to see how people do over time and what they use of this protocol. There is very little response that I can see so far and I don't know of anybody else except the CT naturopath using it. I hope there are others but I don't know how to find them.
I've found that for me caution, instead of rushing in, works well in the long run.
Okay JIMBOB? JIMBOB? JIMBOB?
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klutzo
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posted
Amen to that! Where do I get off saying I am TH2 dominant after 20 yrs of illness? My basis for saying I am Th2 dominant is the result of: 1) my being only a dissertation away from an N.D. Degree 2) my having been tested by a holistic LLMD with 27 yrs. experience in treating patients 3) my actual symptoms. I am allegic to everything and have MCS, both sx of TH2 dominance. I have several reactivated viruses, also TH2 dominance. I never get regular bacterial infections, etc., etc. 4) running a support group for 10 years, a call-in line for 4 yrs. and encountering most late-stagers who have the same sx I do. Note that I said "most" not all, because I admit that I may not be 100% right 100% of the time. I am very glad the protocol does not require modifications to work for you, and I hope it keeps working for you, but let's have a little humility, please. Do you think it makes me happy that I cannot tolerate andrographis? I am suffering enough already without being attacked by someone who probably has not read even 1/4 of the research I have read. It is because of zealots that I left this Board once before. I will not allow zealotry to chase me away again. Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Klutz..have you looked at the DAN protocol for autistic kids, Yasko's work on autistic kids, etc? DAN has two conferences with all lectures downloadable for free on their website (video lectures).
If MCS and th2 dominant with many allergies, you may want to apply their approach and supplement methylation pathways, chelate metals (something GIGI talks about a lot), and maybe investigate LDN. I'm leery of drugs although the LDN looks like a pretty good way to shift back to correct immunity, look at Bihari's work.
None of that cures lyme but I'm thinking it may help the systems of those of lymies who unfortunately also came into life with weaknesses in p450 and methylation systems that were only activated with a nasty chronic infection.
Good luck to u. Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Hi Mtnwoman: Before I forget again, I want to direct this post more towards YOU, rather than get into IT with Oxygenbabe.
YES, the cost when you take the heaviest amounts of herbs, according to Buhner's recommendations, IS high, however it is only for about TWO months that you need to take them at that high of dosages, unless YOU think you have to take them THAT heavy, longer. And yes, Vitacost has GOOD prices. I bought my first herbs from them. However, herbs-wholesale has about the same prices, I believe, AND they have FREE shipping on orders totaling $100 or more. iHerb has FREE shipping on $40 or more, however their prices are quite a bit higher than the other two mentioned. HOWEVER, IF you need a lot of different herbs at one time, it is my understanding they give you 20% off on orders of $240 or more. You would have to check that out for yourself though, and I guess most of the time we don't order that much at once.
IF a person lives east of the Mississippi, you would probably get faster service from vitacost. BUt west of the Mississippi probably fastest from Herbs-Wholesale.
IF you are looking for Stephania Root, you can get IT from 1stchineseherbs.com. It is hard to come by, in my experiences so far. IF anyone has a better source, please let us all know.
posted
Dear Klutzo: My, my, did "I" hit a sore spot, or what?
YOU said that "I" said, that YOU said that YOU told us that you have been dealing with this illness for 20 years. You ask for a little humility please. You state 4 things WHY you can say your are Th2 dominent. You go on and on. However, I am wondering IF you are speaking in anger, NO humility, OR IF you are REALLY trying to HELP us ALL???
FIRST off, let me say that IF you had read my previous post directed to you, you will see that I began the whole thing saying "I am SO SORRY you are allergic to so many things".
THAT was as humble as I or just about anyone can be without being TOOOOOO sweet. Did you TAKE it wrong? Hmmmmmmmm.......?!?!?!
I am seing terminology from you, that I have not seen before and I don't JUST let things slide, usually. Like when you just wrote you are close to an N.D. degree, I am wondering IF it is just a degree I have never heard of before, or IF you just made a little slip of your finger and meant MD degree?!?!?!
ALSO, since I am putting my "herbal faith" in Stephen Buhner at THIS TIME in my life, I tend to accept HIS writing before I would yours; since, I don't know you at all, nor have I seen any books YOU have put out there that seem to make sense. Just the plain facts on that statement, Klutz.
Beyond that, I have NOTHING against YOU personally. I just don't want YOU steering ME wrong or others either for that matter. And YOUR statement on Th1 and Th2 was directly opposite of what Buhner has published. I did NOT say YOU were NOT Th2 dominent. I just questioned YOUR saying that THIS is the case with MOST if not all Lymies, when it is quite plain in Buhner's book that this is NOT the case with the majority of Lymies in the LATE stages of Lyme.
AND YES, I agree there are exceptions to just about EVERY rule.
posted
WELL, Well, well, OXYGENBABE, Oxygenbabe, babe. It looks like YOU and I are TOTALLY different personalities, eh?
You started your last post, directed to me, by saying that I am strident. MAYBE, but maybe I am more like my cousin told me and others a few times, that he hired me to sell computer systems for him because, I am like a Bulldog. I grab on and don't let go. THAT is a personalty trait I developed through my adult life after being rather shy when I was younger.
SOME like it, SOME do NOT. Oh well, can't please everyone, right?
THAT being said. I have had OTHERS who have WANTED me to write so their brain fogged brains could understand WHAT I was writing. They felt my paragraphs were too long and they had trouble deciphering them. So by writing as I do, I feel I can give them something to stand out in their brain, and they won't MISS the point or points I am trying to make, and many just pass by because of skimming or just spacing out things being said. I even do that myself sometimes. Remember, I am afflicted also.
Best thing for you to do, is read all with a grain of salt, or skip MY posts altogether IF they IRK you SO MUCH. They were not meant to be, UNLESS you make a statement that does not sound right and I am trying to make sure the right ideas come across on a subject. I AM a stickler on that, to be sure.
ALSO, IF you are going to write back IN THE BODY of MINE OR SOMEONE ELSE'S letter, PLEASE do SOMETHING to distinguish WHICH is your writing, and WHICH is OUR writings. MUCH easier to understand that way.
Maybe a divider, like, I have used such as ### or *** or +++ or whatever. Or like I do and/or did with my past internet girlfriends, ONE WOULD WRITE IN CAPS and the other in lower case letter. I am an ex journeyman printer, and was taught that we should NEVER use a word that is bigger than what an average eighth grader can readily understand, IF we want to hold the majority's attention. An occasional one is okay, though, as it gets us to branch out. Like your word strident. I never heard that used before except for the gum and never thought anything of it.
IF you are buck up and can afford the people to hold your hand while you are treating or being treated for this disease; more power to you. BUT please do NOT expect everyone on this list to be able to do so.
In my own case. I have a choice. Go to a doctor's office once every three or four months, sit there and listen to him talk for about $150 or so, for a few minutes of his time; OR I can use that money to buy herbs and/or antibiotics and at least TRY to get rid of this hideous disease. I chose the LATTER.
IF you had only one choice or the other, WHICH would YOU choose?
Maybe, IF you have so many bucks that you can spare a bunch, maybe you can donate some to those of us who are not so fortunate as you, moneywise. Then we too, can afford the luxury of someone holding our hand and guiding our footsteps EVERY step of the way. Otherwise, please keep THAT to yourself.
You stated in ONE of your posts that THIS was a good thread and to keep posting. THAT is what is happening. Maybe more so because of the controversy, maybe because of the subject matter. However I have started threads before as have others on the subject of herbs, only to have them die. MAYBE, just maybe, some are sticking with this one, because they are amused. Maybe others are getting woke up. Still others are being angered. But whatever it is, it is working, at least for now.
You say, I am insistant. HOW ABOUT YOU? At least I hadn't been sarcastic like you, up to this post, and say OXYGENBABE, OXYGENBABE, OSYGENBABE, like you have to me, with all your JIMBOB's.
GET REAL, Please!
I am wondering HOW you know that a LOT of Lymies have NOT used Buhners Protocol? I feel a LOT of us already are, and more are starting to all the time. Most people like I have stated before, do NOT grab on to something and go with it. THEY just wait and see what is happening to others first. SOME wait till it is TOO LATE. I do NOT want to be one of those. We should NOT be the first to latch on, nor the last to hold out.
We need to do it when the time is right. IT WAS TIME for me to do so, and I DID. And SO FAR, I am not sorry.
The longer we wait, the tougher it will be for us to turn it around. MANY have already proven that. Including myself, by just waiting and hoping it would go away. Just symptoms, like my duck said, lingering after I was "cured" by Cipro, over 5 years ago.
Yah, right!!!
SO, my main objective here is to REPORT WHAT is happening with ME. AND to get some OTHERS started to actually doing something positive for themselves, instead of just talking about it.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
JimBob I put your quotations in quote marks to distinguish them.
I suggest you report your results without insulting others because they aren't ready to adopt the protocol as stated yet, they are curious about others' results good and bad, and/or they dont want to be told what you think of their immune system (th2 and th1) when you don't know.
To be honest I think you are strident because you are so scared. And you are defensive and shouting because you are really afraid this might not work and I know this disease scares people and rightly so but I've noticed that therefore sometimes when they adopt a protocol, any protocol, they get defensive, angry, and "shout" to drown out any doubt or question or even curiosity that is not wholesale approving of the protocol because they are so afraid deep down that it might not work and they'll be disabled, sick, and die. Instead of shouting at others perhaps it would help to address your fear that the protocol may be only partially helpful and/or you may not be able to tolerate all of it. If best comes to best this particular protocol will work for you perfectly and you'll feel much better. Surely we all hope that for you. As for donating money to you, no, the point is, I do not want to take herbs that could possibly be damaging to me and would rather save up the time and money to go to an herbalist who can oversee my treatment and protect my health long term rather than make a much bigger mistake.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Oxygenbabe: Interesting HOW you PUT things in your posts, very interesting. I can see there is no reasoning with you. So I guess it is best to let you have your way and go on from here.
Personally though, I am neither scared, nor shouting. Somewhat defensive maybe, when someone puts down someone who is a master, at anything; it does kinda get under MY skin and so I try to defend that person since they aren't there to do it for themselves.
As far as being worried about being sick and dying, that neither entered my mind from this protocol. I already WAS sick and dying, prior to going on this protocol. I am not expecting it to be perfect, but it has already performed beyond my expectations. Sure I would like to live forever, but I also realize that is NOT going to happen in THIS system anyway, so I just want to get good enough so I can get to some of my projects I haven't been able to the past few years.
Beyond THAT I will just take things a day at a time as they are handed to me.
Take care of yourself, hopefully YOU won't wait TOO long, as that too could be a bigger mistake. Maybe yes, maybe no. Time will tell, won't it? Jim
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posted
I understand both sides of oxygenbabe's and JimBob's statements here. You are both exploring the same possible treatment plans so I really wished you stay friend's in Lyme and support each other.
For me, I do think Buhner's book is brilliant. He makes the most clear explanation for the way the lyme and coinfections depend on each other for survival and how they cohabitate in our cells. So interesting and it makes sense.
I also know that if I had a herx on those herbs like I did with flagyl and ended up in the ER with neurological symptoms, how would they handle treating me because they wouldn't really understand what the herbs were doing or what meds I could take if necessary to calm the herx.
I have had herxes that felt like strokes...so I don't know...I feel like if I go this direction I will also have to deal with whatever backlash I might get from the conventional community or even possibly my LLMD who may not want to still treat me while on the herbs.
These are all assumptions on my part but are concerns in the back of my head.
I am ready to start RIFE at this point though and I know that it will be a huge departure from convention.
I guess, what it comes down to for me is that my body is sacred. I have to listen to my own intuition and feelings of what treatments are right for me. I deserve to be respected in those choices.
I hope we can all respect each other's views and share. It is this sharing that is going to promote forward gain with treatment of tick borne illness. We have to respect that we are all in different chapters of our treatments and all have different perspectives and experiences. This is what makes life so rich when it is fully embraced and appreciated.
I thank you all for sharing your knowledge and experience with me. Now be nice to each other
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Awwwwwwwww, Lymied, YOU are SO swell!!!
Actually, you are! Just having a little fun with you. I LIKE to have fun, but I can also be quite serious. Especially when someone knocks something, or appears to knock something down for lack of ACTUAL knowledge and/or experience, that I have proven to MYSELF beyond any REASONABLE doubt, that it ain't so.
Other than that, I am ready to move on, and HAVE.
It is up to others WHAT THEY want to do.
I will continue to just be me. Helping WHERE I can, and humbly asking whereever I don't know something. AND IF you have read other posts I have contributed to, you will see THAT is the case.
But like Oxygenbabe stated: This IS a good thread, keep posting. Partly good because we ALL have NOT feared to speak our minds and hearts on the issues at hand, but still listening to others points of view. Still NOT letting erroneous statements slide by. On ALL sides.
Some have written me PM and I thank them for that, too. We have had NICE conversations that way without fear of hurting someones feelings.
posted
Lymied: I am wondering IF you WOULD have a herx on the herbal protocol, LIKE you had with abx???
I do feel a little under the weather now that I am taking the tetracycline along WITH the herbs, but still nothing so far that would get me alarmed about it. AND, when I got up this morning, I felt pretty darn good overall. So I think overall, I am improving, just about every day, since day one of the Herbs on November 25th. Some days more than others, and an occasional setback, but not bad.
Many LLMD's according to what I have read, ARE using some herbs along WITH the abx that they prescribe, so there has to be at least some knowledge about it out there.
I wonder too if I would herx as hard on the herbs...
Today I started my first round back on flagyl in awhile and here we go...been feeling weird all afternoon...kind of panic filled...like at any moment a migraine will come on.
I have had to cheat on my abx protocol that last few months because I was in school and needed to be able to drive and take exams...trying to hit it hard now.
Today I was wondering how beneficial herxing really is. Yes, it proves that you are killing the buggars but it also proves the lymphatic system can't keep up. So I am backing off a little today with taking the other abx combo - I was only supposed to take the combo with the flagyl for a few days and then end with just 3 days straight of the flagyl.
I am just one day shy if I stop the other abxs with the flagyl today so I will since I feel the herx coming.
Yeah, I am real swell If you were following posts a few weeks back you will see my public apology to someone. It was very different then this thread - but I was feeling extremely strongly about something. I tried to keep my fingers from flying across the keyboards but just couldn't take it anymore. That person didn't think I was swell at all...but I did apologize privately.
I have to say that others have told me they have left this board because of personal issues and the heat they have felt from such strong viewpoints.
I kind of like it. Everyone is an individual that is for sure with their strong beliefs...
Oh, as I am typing a beautiful red breasted hawk has alighted outside my window. She always comes to visit me when I am posting on lymenet or working on my lyme projects...very interesting...
Anyway, thanks for your posts...I am smiling feeling I am 'swell'
Happy New Year!!!
Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I'll start a thread on this again in a month or two and see how people are doing.
BTW JimBob if you print out or review my posts you will see that I did not knock Stephen Buhner. As I said, I've emailed with him, I have read the book, recommended it (he absorbed the science/biology of the spirochete beautifully), BUT because he does not have a track history of treating lyme, these herbs are imo still theoretical. It is somewhat encouraging that SevenForests uses andrographis in theirs too but they also combine very different Chinese Herbs.
So. Much remains to be learned and really, experienced herbalists and naturopaths need to try this protocol if they are interested. In Zhang's case he had a website and he was willing to see patients. One had to take stock over a period of years to see the bellcurve of response and people are not as gung ho as they were in the beginning. Until Buhner he was the only guy out there trying to create an overall protocol for lyme/babesia, even if it was not nearly as successful as many hoped initially. Some offices do still recommend Zhang's herbs, I hear, for example Dr. H.
Since Buhner does not see many patients, for which I do not fault him, he's at a time when he may prefer to teach and to enjoy life, but even so, we therefore don't have any idea how this protocol will work. One example is cat's claw...at least he defuses the idea that samento, which nutramedix marketed as a brand new special toa free cats claw just for lyme and hyped and is still hyping...anyway...some have adverse reactions to cat's claw. I hear that nutramedix and Cowden are now promoting cumanda more heaviliy than samento as samento did not have the followthru results they hoped. Buhner notes that cats claw can increase cd57 counts which are depressed in some. Anyway the point is that people are individual, their biochemistries are individual--as another thread here posted about a toxic reaction to artemisinin in one cancer patient.
That's why I personally adopt caution. I'm just not going to willy nilly adopt a protocol. I do take echinacea and cranberry capsules daily, those herbs are ancient, tried and true, and I get them from, to me, the most ethical herb source in the country (Eclectic Institute). Otherwise I am cautious.
I will add one more note here which is I am going to research greater celandine in some more depth as that came to me as a treatment for babesia and I don't know why yet.
Oh yeah, I got PM's too about this thread. Some people want to be supportive privately and that's fine. They don't want to get into a public argument and usually I don't either.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
Stay in touch OxygenBabe - It is evident to me that you have done your homework...
I understand your reticence to just jump in with both feet.
Take care!
-------------------- �Pride is concerned with who is right. Humility is concerned with what is right.� - Ezre Taft Benson Posts: 655 | From NC, Exit 88 on the Deer SuperHighway | Registered: Dec 2004
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
I looked up Seven Forests on the net, but didn't recognize very many of their herbs, so I will stick with getting them whole and in separate bottles as per Buhner's protocol.
I know what at least SOME of them have done for me so far, so will continue and see what happens. Prior to this thread I had heard some not such good things about Zhang, so will stick with this.
I still have plenty to learn, but NOT all that much time to learn them in, as time waits for no man. The days, weeks and years are flying by, so need to keep forging ahead, full steam as it were. Somebody has to do it, why not me?
In three or four months we should pretty well know IF it was the thing to do or not.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I've bookmarked this thread and will bring it up again in about a month or more to get more feedback.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
I haven't time to go through this whole thread yet..
but will say I have been using Smilax, a tea made from the root, for well over a year (pulsed) with very good results.
Mo
Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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Loribelle
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Member # 6293
posted
"ND" is Dr of Naturopathic Medicine, btw... Posts: 1149 | From southeast iowa | Registered: Sep 2004
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
HOMEOPATHY. I just received Stephen Buhner's book this week and read through it quickly. I was pleased to see the positive comments on homeopathy.
I began tx on homeopathy with an LLMD, then got scared and went to a 2nd LLMD who uses antibiotics. There is no question the homeopathy gave me bigger herx reactions and at the same time provided lots more energy and positive emotions. Of course, by the time I started Flagyl and Ketek, (2nd LLMD took over 4 weeks to prescribe anything) the homeopathic remedies had probably knocked the bacteria load way down. I had an allergic reaction to Flagyl and had to stop it but continue on the Ketek with disappointing results. I was given a 30 day supply and will finish it. I was not doing the homeopathy during this time but after 2 weeks on just Ketek, my energy is zip.
I read a really good post here this morning about Magnesium levels being so low in Lyme victims and how increasing those can greatly improve symptoms. Well, I know Ketek doesn't have Magnesium in it and 2nd LLMD mentioned nothing about it. I pulled my homeopathic remedies and 4 of the 13 solutions provide Magnesium.
Everytime I learn something new about this disease and check what my original LLMD had prescribed, I see he has already addressed the issue.
There are no adverse side effects whatsoever to homeopathic remedies. They can be taken in combination with anything else. This is not so with herbs, although I have long been a fan of herbal care and believe in them strongly.
My first LLMD explained to me why he was not using herbs. He does not use them only because they are not regulated by the FDA and therefore, he cannot be certain what they claim to have in them is really there.
I'm not saying don't use herbs. As soon as I am off Ketek, I plan to jump onto Stephen's protocol, but will do it along with the homeopathy.
Homeopathy is a safe course of treatment that clinical studies are finding to be effective treatment for Lyme. Like everything else, it isn't guaranteed to work for everyone everytime, but of all our choices it is the safest approach. There is no harm in trying it first.
For me it has hit a homerun.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Can you tell me WHY you are continuing on with a regimen that saps your energy and disappoints you, luvs2ride?
IF a person is uncertain on WHAT is in the herbs, check with a GOOD herbalist, Like Buhner, and get his opinion on the different brands.
I have a tendency to feel just the opposite about the FDA, since it is GOVERNMENT controlled.
I have had good fortune using brands that Herbs-Wholesale handle, as THEY are super careful to keep everything up to date. However it does take longer sometimes because they may not have a certain herb in stock and order the freshest from a manufacturer AFTER you order it from them.
1stChineseHerbs out in Washington is very fast on delivery. However, THEY do not handle much in the way of pills. Mostly 1 pound bulk packages. But they too are a quality company IMO. I just ordered my second order from them.
The trick is to allow two weeks for delivery, JUST IN CASE, IF you don't want to run out. I ran out of Smilax on Saturday because I didn't do that. It should be here this afternoon though, by UPS. This is my third order from Herbs-Wholesale, two were slow and one was fast. Very nice people to deal with, regardless, though.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
JimBob, I'm staying on the Ketek until it is completed because 1-I've spent money on it 2-I can say to all the die-hard antibiotic fans, "Hey, I tried it and didn't like it" 3-I can feel I have hit this disease from multiple angles. I'm not remaining on abx because the side effects are just so scary and the results were so little.
I'm returning to the homeopathy as I believe in it now completely. I will add herbs as needed such as Similax to help with symptoms and as another approach to killing bacteria. I'll take my chances on their ingredients, but the homeopathy is where I'm centering most of my efforts.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
This is an interesting thread filled with emotions born from frustration. We are all facing the difficult, overwhelming and daunting task of seeking treatment as pioneers. The peer-review literature is all over the place regarding guidelines and treatment recommendations. We patients are put forward as cannon fodder by the medical insurance industry.
Like others, I have spent a lot of time reviewing the literature, treatment recommendations from professional organizations as ILADS, countless books and most recently read Stephen Buhner's book.
My professional and educational background is in science, though I don't claim any expertise. I provide this background to illustrate that by training and vocation I am a professional skeptic and empiricist. Despite this, I find myself trying many non-traditional treatments which are rooted in peer-review literature.
In addition to Ketek and Doryx, I am currently taking Andrographis and Cat's Claw at the max dosage and Artimisinin as recommended by my doctor. In addition, I take a huge conglomeration of other supplements recommended by folks like Dr. B of Long Island, my physician Dr. S in NJ, and other books on symptom treatments for symptom-named diseases (e.g. arthritis, fibromyalgia, etc). I sometimes feel like I am slowly going broke to produce some neon liquid waste. I am also glad to say that I am operating at 85-90% for which I am humbly grateful.
I just wish all well as they embark on the lonely and uphill struggle to recapture lost health, mental acuity and relationships! Know that you are not alone and have friends!
Posts: 44 | From NJ | Registered: Aug 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Okay, Luvs2ride. GOOD answer. I thought that your number one would maybe be what it was. I definitely do like your #'s 2 and 3 though. I was just curious. Keep us posted on your homeopathic approach as you continue. It does sound interesting.
posted
I sometimes feel like I am slowly going broke to produce some neon liquid waste.
Yellow pee can be pricey ..
I am also glad to say that I am operating at 85-90% for which I am humbly grateful.
Wonderful!
I just wish all well as they embark on the lonely and uphill struggle to recapture lost health, mental acuity and relationships! Know that you are not alone and have friends!
Thanks for that message!
I began with long term abx to arrest extremely debilitating neurological symptoms..IMO that was necessary for me and got me along to where I could take on the necessary care of myself.. ...and went on thereafter to just as intensive an 'alternative' program, both to erradicate Lyme and other ills and balance the body after the impact of the pharmaceticals..
Total health is the goal, and I sort of at this point feel Lyme is somewhat 'incidental'. As I feeel this point comes in recoovery from Cancer, TB, syphillis, general toxicity, immune disorders and other chronic infections.
The goal is total health, every organ, every cell. Balance is key. Free the body's innate wisdom and power that science will IMO never fully understand no matter how advanced it becomes. Free it from all that binds it.
Mo
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luvs2ride
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posted
Mo, It's good to hear you are doing so well.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Please let me add one more thing about the homeopathy I am using.
This is being prescribed by a very lyme literate MD who is also highly trained in alternative medicine. He is a board certified homeopath.
Holistic treatment always looks at the entire picture of the patient, not just the current symptoms. In addition to Lyme specific remedies, he has prescribed mood and sleep enhancers, trace minerals and vitamins where he found me deficient as well as remedies for some other bacterial infections he found. What he prescribed for me is not necessarily what he would prescribe for you.
I believe this thorough and knowledgeable analysis is the key element to why the remedies are having such success. If I were to try to do this on my own, or with someone less trained, I do not believe I would see positive results.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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I've been following this thread and find it interesting.
I went to a homeopathic doctor a few years ago for several years. He used his little machine (can't think of the name of it) with the probe on one of my fingers and found this wrong and that wrong but never, ever mentioned lyme disease.
So he treated me with different homeopathic meds none of which really helped me.
I'm now going to the FFC and like their overall protocol since they treat hormone deficiencies with bio-identical hormones, they treat lyme with abx (which I'm wanting to get off of) and viruses with anti-viral meds. The use abx, herbs and supplements. One of the FFC in Texas uses herbs only for lyme and no abx.
My question is: Why do you think the homeopathic doc wasn't able to find the lyme? Do those machines work for bacteria? He did say my EBV titers were high. Boy, I spent a lot of money with him.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
karatelady,
This is IMO only. My lyme symptoms appeared when I sought out Bioset treatment for a morning cough I wanted to get rid of. The practioner is a chiropractor trained in Bioset which includes administering homeopathic remedies. This involves a machine with a probe used on my hand to determine which energy channel is blocked and then treating it. Could this be what you were doing?
With each treatment (I had 3 in all) I would feel really good on day 2 and then on day 3 the joint swelling and pain would hit. First my left thumb, then my right ankle. This frightened her and she got on the phone consulting with her colleagues who referred her to the LLMD I am currently working with. He said it sounded like lyme. The chiropractor kept emphasizing the fact that he is a "board certified homeopath". I'm thinking the combination of his knowledge of lyme and its coinfections combined with his extensive knowledge of homeopathic medicine is the reason for my good progress.
His diagnostic tool is auricular therapy. It works by reading the vibrations in my ear when I am exposed to bacterias, viruses, etc. It was painless and amazing as he began to tell me my own medical history. He then treats according to his findings.
I don't know how many like him there may be in the U.S., but I am thanking God daily that I was led to him.
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luvs2ride
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posted
Karatelady,
I'm sorry I did not answer your question about why your homeopathic doctor did not find the Lyme. The chiropractor said to me that the LLMD could test for many things at one time using auricular therapy, whereas her Bioset could only test for one thing at a time. She said it could have taken her forever to discover the Lyme. Additionally, although she did not say this, the Bioset machine does not find specific illnesses. It just finds blocked energy channels. This is the same principal as acupuncture.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
luvs2ride how long have you been on antibiotics?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Treepatrol: WHY are the "creeks red" where you come from? Jim
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luvs2ride
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posted
Treepatrol
Only 3 weeks on Ketek. Only 5 doses of Flagyl. My throat closed up on the 6th dose. However, if antibiotics were the cure, I would never have become symptomatic. You are talking to an antibiotic babe. I have suffered respiratory illness most of my life (my mother and grandmother pulled 21 ticks from my head when I was six - so who knows when I first contracted Lyme) I can't think of a single year I have gone without some form of antibiotic treatment.
Spring 2004, I was diagnosed with an HP ulcer and given PrevPac. I felt so much better in general after that. I recently looked up the medications in that and found Biaxin among other stuff. I'm sure now, the Biaxin, which I had never taken before, probably drove the lyme bacteria back into hiding (couldn't have killed many, since I had no herx reaction)but did make me feel better. Fall of 2004, I had a case of shingles (yes, I was living a very high stress working life) At that time, I was given Cipro. I can't count all the doxy, tetra, keflex I have received. They stopped giving me amoxicillin years ago. I finally developed an allergy to Keflex and all sulfa drugs.
10 years ago, I suffered from Lyme for 6 mths before becoming asymptomatic. Antibiotics of all kinds were administered during the 6 mths, however, since then, I have developed many ills I now believe were caused by Lyme, such as extreme stiff neck problems, migraines, medically assessed hearing loss, severe short term memory loss, hot flashes and finally cognitive difficulty.
Upon beginning homeopathy in September, the memory loss, cognitive problems, migraines, hot flashes completely disappeared. Although, I have not yet had my hearing tested, I believe it has cleared up too. I am now hearing noises before my husband. My joint pain has increased and is the only symptom I am dealing with today. I put it this way. When I started homeopathy, I got 1000% worse, now I am only 50% worse or 950% better. I believe I am well on my way to a full recovery.
Please don't preach antibiotics to me. If I live to be 100, I will probably never purge all the antibiotics from my body.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
My philosophy on homeopathics -- if it works, use it. My doctor (Dr. K.) uses it extensively when in the right place.
I have seen and had myself healing crises with homeopathic substances. But remember, homeopathics work only in the mental field.
We were treated with everything - abx, herbals, other plant derived remedies and a few homeopathic remedies tossed in between. Homeopathics for Lyme and co-infections did not work one iota for me. But homeopathics did alleviate some mineral deficiencies with emotional origin, hormonal deficiencies, and allergy treatments for certain substances. It is an extremely helpful modality at times and so easy to do. I learned to make simple homeopathics myself - taught by my doctor.
With Lyme Disease - it is my firm belief that it is not an either or. There is no either or. You do many, many things; address all the basic problems that are not Lyme caused, but are nevertheless there and keep us from getting well. Not one of us would get as deadly ill as many of us did, if we did not have a few problems on the side or beneath. For most of us, the bite or Lyme infection via other means - was the later event. A lot went before that. If every doctor, as ours does,would finally start to recognize this and take it into consideration when treating a chronically ill patient with Lyme or any other disease, we would all be helped a lot quicker and with a lot less pharma drugs. A few of these, and every time you take a step forward, you take another one back. This turns into years and years. And some people just do not ever get well.
I am excited about Buhner's book - he understands this disease. He does not talk much, if any, about underlying problems. I ran through the book quickly. But I hope it will be of help to many.
Take care.
[ 11. January 2006, 02:59 PM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Gigi: His book is at least helping some on this group. And probably many others too around the country.
At least my overall symptoms are much better in a few short weeks of his protocol after suffering for several years before starting it.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
GiGi,
How do you determine homeopathy only works on the mental energy field? My doctor says it is the DNA of Lyme. It stimulates the immune system to create the correct antibiodies to kill the bacteria. The bacteria cannot hide or become immune to it, because the homeopathy is not doing the fighting, the immune system is. The homeopathy just keeps showing the DNA to the immune system.
Homeopathy works on the "like cures like" basis which is a precursor to vaccines. Only homeopathy is not giving me Lyme disease in small doses. It is giving my immune system the DNA of the Lyme. The immune system works everywhere in my body. Not just the mental energy fields.
This is why I herx on it. My doctor is giving me combination remedies that include mycoplasma, borrelia, babesia, erhlicia as well as many others for non-lyme bacteria ie: helico-bactor pylori which caused my ulcer in 2004. Nowhere in his remedies do I see Ledum which is often touted in homeopathic literature for Lyme.
If homeopathy did not touch your lyme, perhaps it was the wrong remedies. I assure you, I don't have to wait long at all before I begin having symptoms on the homeopathy.
I jumped back on the homeopathy 2 days ago along with the Ketek. I'm already showing an increase in swelling and pain. I figure the homeopathy will stimulate the immune system to drive the bacteria out of hiding where both my antibiodies and the antibiotic can attack the bacteria. I'm into my 5th month of treatment and feel I am gaining ground on this hideous disease.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by JimBoB: Treepatrol: WHY are the "creeks red" where you come from? Jim
The creeks are red because of mining when air hits the coal seem and if theres water the iron oxidizes wham red water also sulfer.
Sulfer leaves the stream bed white to a yellow sediment, if its iron in the water it leaves it red.Lots of times theres both pretty but no fish also high acid content.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Treepatrol
Only 3 weeks on Ketek. Only 5 doses of Flagyl. My throat closed up on the 6th dose. However, if antibiotics were the cure, I would never have become symptomatic. You are talking to an antibiotic babe. I have suffered respiratory illness most of my life (my mother and grandmother pulled 21 ticks from my head when I was six - so who knows when I first contracted Lyme) I can't think of a single year I have gone without some form of antibiotic treatment.
Spring 2004, I was diagnosed with an HP ulcer and given PrevPac. I felt so much better in general after that. I recently looked up the medications in that and found Biaxin among other stuff. I'm sure now, the Biaxin, which I had never taken before, probably drove the lyme bacteria back into hiding (couldn't have killed many, since I had no herx reaction)but did make me feel better. Fall of 2004, I had a case of shingles (yes, I was living a very high stress working life) At that time, I was given Cipro. I can't count all the doxy, tetra, keflex I have received. They stopped giving me amoxicillin years ago. I finally developed an allergy to Keflex and all sulfa drugs.
10 years ago, I suffered from Lyme for 6 mths before becoming asymptomatic. Antibiotics of all kinds were administered during the 6 mths, however, since then, I have developed many ills I now believe were caused by Lyme, such as extreme stiff neck problems, migraines, medically assessed hearing loss, severe short term memory loss, hot flashes and finally cognitive difficulty.
Upon beginning homeopathy in September, the memory loss, cognitive problems, migraines, hot flashes completely disappeared. Although, I have not yet had my hearing tested, I believe it has cleared up too. I am now hearing noises before my husband. My joint pain has increased and is the only symptom I am dealing with today. I put it this way. When I started homeopathy, I got 1000% worse, now I am only 50% worse or 950% better. I believe I am well on my way to a full recovery.
Please don't preach antibiotics to me. If I live to be 100, I will probably never purge all the antibiotics from my body.
luvs2ride I wasnt arguing anything I was just curiousor preaching to you. You have to work it out yourself. But when joint pain arrives on the scene it means your immune system has recognised the new spirochete's new form that it took your protiens and is wearing /using them to camophlage itself but now your immune system caught up and is attacking that form which intern brings on inflamation in your joints. Anyway thats my take on it.Good luck let us ie me know how your doing a couple of years from now thanks and keep good records of just what you took and any changes over time . If you want to.Thanks
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Thanks Tree
I will keep everyone posted on my alternative approach. Right now I kind of like the idea I'm attacking it from both directions at once. Long as my body can tolerate the pain.
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Thanks for your explanation on the Bioset. It sounds like the same machine but this probe just identified what was going on in my blood. He then gave me homeopathics for the different symptoms.
Have you heard of Transfer Factors and are they like homeopathy? I believe transfer factors train the immune system to fight the pathogens. They talk about them extensively on Immunesupport.com and some have used them for viruses and lyme.
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
karatelady
I had not heard of Transfer Factors and went to the website you listed. They are not the same thing as homeopathy. My doctor was interviewed for the pain foundation newsletter and he gives a very good description of homeopathy and how it works, especially with chronic illness.
I hope this helps. BTW, I have been a chronic insomniac as long as I can remember, but since starting the homeopathy, I sleep like a baby!
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luvs2ride
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posted
Whoops! I forgot to mention that in the pain foundation newsletter, his article is titled "Getting to the Root of the Problem".
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
No placebos here. I was neither familiar with, nor sold on, nor blindly following homeopathy. When I began herxing, I literally thought the stuff might be killing me. I had to get educated on Lyme Disease to realize it wasn't killing me, it was curing me.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
Okay, luvs2ride, I was wondering because where I come from originally up in northern Wisconsin, there used to be a DuPont plant up there that made Boyd creek very red or red brown.
Come to find out they were polluting Lake SUperior all the time. WHen the government finally made them stop by giving them the alternative to either close down or clean up their act, they closed down. Laying off about 450 workers, which was huge, but did THEY care? Not likely. Big business; Ugh!
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Luvs, Gigi wasn't saying it was a placebo. You can heal from the spirit if you really are that advanced. I know someone who's done it. Most of us can't. You can heal from the mind if you can really direct your mind--but imo you'd have to practice like a buddhist monk for many years or a chi gong master to really be able to direct your biochemistry. You can heal with the body. You can heal from any point along the cascade if you know the correct intervention and have the ability to apply it correctly with the correct amount of force.
Which makes it sound easy which it is NOT.
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luvs2ride
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posted
Right Oxy.
I really don't have a full understanding of what GiGi meant by mental/energy level even after viewing the chart she provided. And I know she is into alternative care as well as conventional.
GiGi is a great source of information for this board. I was surprised by her take on water though. She is also well and I'm not going to argue with that.
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luvs2ride
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posted
Karatelady,
You're welcome. Did I mention this is my doctor?
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Yes, luvs2ride, that was a good article from the painfoundation.
I didn't know they even existed.
I think IF I was in the kind of pain that the gal is in on another thread and is bedridden from it; I would definitely look into the painfoundation for help.
posted
i am a person,who has recieved several tickbites over the course of 20 years,and i have taken abx only 2x,ix doxy for 1 month,1x doxy for 6 weeks,and no llmd.i also did herbal/homeopathic /silver treatments for awhile.personally,i think chronic long term lymes is hard to cure(duh)i like the book,and it inspired me to start raintree cats claw,at 3 caps 2x a day.esp. since my recent blod tests came back,i realised cats claw could help my immune.however,i suspect even doing the protocol fiully for a year will not get rid of the lymes but may make me feel much better,i think it is very hard to get tbd out,once infection has been there a long time,however,the herbal protocol sems worth trying for a few months.
Posts: 32 | From northern ca. | Registered: Mar 2005
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luvs2ride
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posted
uma, Sounds like you self treated. I don't think feel that is a very successful plan of attack. When I lived in N.C., I was blessed to have a fabulous "certified" herbalist husband and wife team in my area.
I stumbled on them the first time at a point in my life where asthma and allergies were robbing me of quality of life. Even though I was under the care of an allergist, I was not thriving. They recommended an herbal combination that proved to be nothing short of a miracle for me. Over the next couple of years, I slowly learned to trust them over my medical doctors simply because they were more effective. Yet still, had I tried herbs on my own, I definitely would not have known the combination and volume necessary to treat the various illnesses successfully.
I am currently under the care of a LLMD who practices alternative medicine and is a board certified homeopath. He has me on 13 complex, combination remedies. Two months after beginning treatment, when I was at my worst herxing stage, I cheated on him and went to another LLMD who uses allopathic drugs. It took the 2nd LLMD 4 weeks to prescribe me anything during which time, I was taking nothing. My condition plataeued (sp?) When I finally began his abx, I had an allergic reaction to one drug. I tolerated the 2nd one just fine but after two weeks saw no difference in my condition. Last Monday, I went back on the homeopathy and had a swift but subtle increase in symptoms which are now reversing. I am also continuing the one abx just because I have paid for it. When it runs out at the end of this month, I will not pursue abx any further.
I am having great success on the homeopathy and I believe it is only because my doctor is so well versed in medical care, lyme disease and homeopathy. Had I tried it on my own, I would not have come close to the combination he has prescribed.
After initially believing as you that this bacteria can't be eliminated, I now do not believe that to be true. However, I do believe for the rest of our lives, we should follow some annual preventive care such as is outlined in Stephen Buhner's book. I also strongly believe people who have never been treated for lyme should follow the same preventive care.
FYI, here is an article my doctor wrote in 2002 for the Pain Foundation which explains homeopathy better than I can. Titled "Getting to the Root of the Problem".
I apologize to all who have already read my story under about a 1,000 posts. I just want the public to know there are safer options to the treatment of this disease should they care to explore it.
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GiGi
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posted
Luvs2ride, your doctor, if he is your doctor, explained homeopathy very clearly in a paragraph in his article. I.e. except in very low potencies, there is no physical part of the "med" left anymore in a homeopathic, but the effect can still be present. That's why Dr. K. refers to it in his "Five Levels of Healing" as belonging in the mental field.
You might read your doctor's article again.
By the way, I have been treated on all levels except the 5th level, allbeit very briefly. But all four levels are usually addressed somewhere along the line in Dr. K.'s treatment method. See chart.
Take care.
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Truthfinder
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posted
As a newbie, this thread has been most informative, despite the obvious frustrations. It didn't take long for me to realize that many of us are forced into ``flying by the seat of our pants'' with this Lyme thing, and we are going to bump into each other from time to time.
luvs2ride, should I assume from your posts that you are using at least one Lyme nosode? And would it be totally inappropriate for me to ask you what homeopathic remedies you are taking? I realize that it is a treatment designed specifically for you and not everyone. But it might help me determine whether or not I am on the right track.
Also, is your LLMD - the homeopathic doc - remotely close to the border of West Virginia? I have a dear friend in WV looking for an alternative LLMD. Please feel free to PM me, of course.
I live in a somewhat remote area affectionately referred to as ``East B. Jesus'' where we have no Lyme disease (oh, right), and my chances of getting to a good LLMD are looking slim. I am forced to try to figure out a lot of this on my own. I do have a good ND that is helping and a fairly open-minded regular doc (D.O.) who is supportive, but the reality is that I probably know more about Lyme treatment than either of them at this point. How scary is that.
Anyway, info would be appreciated.
Tracy
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oxygenbabe
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posted
Tracy (truthfinder) look at the thread herbal treatment by jfw. There is an overlap in Buhner's herbs and those he and his wife used. I would think one could begin slowly and add in bit by bit (my approach would be that way but I hvae some other issues to take care of at the moment and can't begin). Also my acupuncturist friend couldnt' tolerate high doses of the herbs until she chelated her metals out, she used a gentle oral formula.
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