Jellybelly
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I read somewhere that in regards to Doxy and Mino that they do not actually kill the organism directly. Rather they prevent them from entering into new host cells, basically locking them out. Being locked out, one of 2 things happens, either they are attacked by our immune sytem OR they die of their own accord since they are cell wall dificinet and can not live without the cell wall of the host cell. Something like that.
Where I got this I do not know. Can't find it any where. Is the scenario similar with Lyme and other TBD? I think I have have read here that these ABX interfere with the reproductive cycle, but what does that mean exactly? Has anyone heard of the situation I am talking about, in that they are locked out?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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There are several mechanisms of attack when one is considering antimicrobial therapy. The tetracycline attach bacteria by preventing protein syntheisis. They do this by binding to the bacterial 30s subunit, and possibly the 50s subunit.
These drugs do not directly kill Lyme Bacteria, as they only prevent growth. However, some have claimed that larger doses will directly kill Borrelia. There are reports that higher doses are more effective for Doxycycline against Borrelia, whereas for drugs like Rocephin, higher doses are not as important, rather its only important to keep the drug levels consistanly above the MIC.
That said, bacteria are of the class of organisms called
Prokaryotic Cells Cells that lack a membrane-bound nucleus are called prokaryotes (from the Greek meaning before nuclei). These cells have few internal structures that are distinguishable under a microscope. Cells in the monera kingdom such as bacteria and cyanobacteria (also known as blue-green algae) are prokaryotes.
Prokaryotic cells differ significantly from eukaryotic cells. They don't have a membrane-bound nucleus and instead of having chromosomal DNA, their genetic information is in a circular loop called a plasmid. Bacterial cells are very small, roughly the size of an animal mitochondrion (about 1-2�m in diameter and 10 �m long). Prokaryotic cells feature three major shapes: rod shaped, spherical, and spiral. Instead of going through elaborate replication processes like eukaryotes, bacterial cells divide by binary fission.
Whereas the cells in our bodies are called:
Eukaryotic Cells Eukaryotic cells (from the Greek meaning truly nuclear) comprise all of the life kingdoms except monera. They can be easily distinguished through a membrane-bound nucleus.
Diagram of an animal cell.
Eukaryotic cells also contain many internal membrane-bound structures called organelles. These organelles such as the mitochondrion or chloroplast serve to perform metabolic functions and energy conversion. Other organelles like intracellular filaments provide structural support and cellular motility. The function of individual organelles is described in detail in the Cell Anatomy Section.
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Mathias
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I'm curious about this as well.
If they cannot grow (are inhibited) by a tetracycline class antibiotic then do they eventually die, get killed by the immune system or some of both?
-------------------- Mathias Posts: 1250 | From New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2004
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I gave that little tutorial to illustrate this important point. While higher doses of Doxycyline reportedly can directly kill Borrelia, at these doses, they also inhibit protein synthesis in human cells.
So, if you have co-infections, high dose doxy may not be the ticket. At least not until the co-infections are out of the way.
Another tidbit of info. Minocycline is a potent anti-inflamatory agent. It strongly induces Interlukein 10.
IL-10 is widley known to be involved in the persistance of intracellular Bacterial infections. The complete understanding of how this occurs is not well understood. However, it certainly may contribute to treatment failure with Minocycline.
All of these are important to remember when treating Lyme Disease, as certain drugs Like doxycyline in doses needed for CNS infections, may not be a great choice unless co-infections have been controlled.
Of course, discuss this with your physician, as animal cell protein inhibition may not seem like such a big deal to them.
Hope this helps explain how Doxy works.
PS:one of the reasons Borrelia stay pathogenic is that they can move. Doxy is real good at stopping that movement, but it doesn't really break up the membrane of the cell like a drug such as Rocephin does.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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The key with Tetracycline class drugs, as it applies to Borrelia is one's own immune system. The thought is that when you stop the growth, your immune system will eat the bacteria. They do not directly kill.
The exception with protein syntheisis drugs is Ketek. It is the only drug similar to Doxy that can kill outright Borrelia. Although some report Azithromayacin has this capacity, it has only been demonstrated according to several LLMD's with Ketek.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Maybe. It did in my case, and it has occured in other well documented cases. It may depend on the person and the individual dose of Minocycline.
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Jellybelly
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Thanks Lymescience. A question, and some thoughts. Having Doxy and Mino, not kill directly seems like a good thing, wouldn't that make them less likely to become super bugs? Having our immune system be able to get at them also seems like a good thing. I am a strong believer that ouor immune system is till the best ammo against this stuff. Lyme, Myoplasma and the others may be able to morph, but so can our immune systems, faster then any lab can ever come up with a new drug.
I am still not clear on what preventing their growth means. How do they prevent growth and at the same time leave them possibly for the immune system to eat up. Doesn't Lyme replicate "inside" of cells? If that is the case, and they can't get back into cells then they wouldn't be able to reproduce, right? I am just trying to see if we are talking about the same thing. Am I anywhere close?
Maybe larger doses of these ABX aren't needed, maybe we just need enough to stop replication or lock them out? I personally herx like heck on very small doses of both Doxy and Mino. Is this my own immune system working, making antibodies for these little buggers since they are now locked out and visible?
If lower doses of these particular ABX work then we might not need the higher doses which seems to inhibit protien synthisis which sounds like it isn't a good thing. Don't understand that either, would love it if you have time for further explanation.
And finally, if you have any info on IL-10 and Mino I would love to be pointed in the right direction, since this is the ABX I have been using for the past several years, in very small doses. I don't want to be doing anything that may eventually blow up in my face.
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Sure, I'll post that info for you. I'm busy today until late in the afternoon, but I'll try to get back to this today.
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Mathias
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up
-------------------- Mathias Posts: 1250 | From New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2004
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Having a bit of brain fog right now, So, I'll handle that which I can tonight.
First off, I'm actually not much of a fan of Minocycline or Doxycycline, unless they are used for co-infections.
Now, is it good for your immune system to work. YES. They question is whether it will. This is an incredibly complex issue, and I don't think anyone really knows, but I'll let you see the information and make an informed opinion.
Here is a study concerning morphology. Which simply means the shape of something, in this case Borrelia. They test pennicillian, ceftriaxone, and doxycycline.
Ceft, and penn make lots of cysts. Cysts can be killed with Tindamax, Flagly, or Plaquenil.
Doxycyline does not make many cysts, it makes something else. This something else has been proven to be able to infect animals and cause spirotichemia leading to death. I am of the believe that Doxycycline is able to paralyze Borrelia, they don't kill it. It goes into some kind of spore, not a cyst, a spore, which is VERY different.
Read this study carefully. Its important. Read the whole study, not just the abstract.
ACR Home > Patients & Public > Patient Education Printer-friendly Format
MINOCYCLINE (Minocin) + Description + Side Effects + Uses + Points to remember + How it works + Drug interactions + Dosing + For More Information + Time to effect
Description Minocycline (Minocin) is a member of the tetracycline group of antibiotics. Although it has not been proven that infections cause rheumatoid arthritis, minocycline may improve the signs and symptoms of this disease. There is evidence that minocycline may slow the progression of joint damage in arthritis and prevent disability, like other drugs in the class known as DMARDs (disease modifying antirheumatic drugs).
Uses Minocycline is prescribed for patients with symptoms of mild rheumatoid arthritis. It is sometimes combined with other medications to treat patients with persistent symptoms of this form of arthritis.
How it works Minocycline is an antibiotic, which means it helps to neutralize or kill bacteria that cause infections. When used to treat rheumatoid arthritis, however, minocycline may work through a different mechanism to stop inflammation. Minocycline decreases the production of substances causing inflammation, such as prostaglandins and leukotrienes, while increasing production of interleukin-10, a substance in the blood that decreases inflammation.
Dosing Minocycline is usually given as a 100 milligram (mg) capsule twice a day. It may be taken with food, although it should not be taken at the same time as other medications such as antacids or iron tablets. Time to effect It may take 2 to 3 months before people who have just started on minocycline will experience any improvement in arthritis symptoms. It may take a year before maximum benefits are experienced. Side Effects The most common side effects from this medicine are gastrointestinal symptoms, dizziness, and skin rash. Patients who take this medication for a long time may also notice changes in the color of their skin, but this usually resolves after stopping the medication.
In addition, some women who take minocycline develop vaginal yeast infections. This may occur with other antibiotics, but seems to occur more often with minocycline and other tetracyclines. It is thought that minocycline kills bacteria that are normally present in the body to protect against yeast infections.
Minocycline may increase your sensitivity to sunlight, resulting in more frequent sunburns or the development of rashes following sun exposure. It is therefore recommended that you apply sunscreen (SPF 15 or greater) while outdoors or avoid prolonged exposure to the sun while taking minocycline.
More rarely, minocycline can affect the kidneys or liver. If you are taking minocycline for a long time, your doctor may recommend periodic blood tests to check your liver and kidney function. Minocycline can rarely induce lupus, but this condition usually improves after stopping the medication.
Points to remember Before taking minocycline, tell your doctor if you have ever had any unusual or allergic reaction to any other tetracycline antibiotic.
Minocycline is not recommended during the last half of pregnancy, as it may cause discoloration of the newborn's teeth. Minocyline use during any part of pregnancy may also slow the growth of teeth or bones in infants after birth. Because minocycline may decrease the effectiveness of some birth control pills, talk with your doctor about other contraception options while taking minocycline.
Minocycline is passed into breast milk, so mothers should avoid breast-feeding to prevent delayed development of teeth and bones in their infants. Minocycline also may increase a nursing infant's risk of fungal infections or dizziness in the newborn. Because minocycline may also cause of discoloration of teeth and problems with bone growth in young children, it is recommended that those younger than 8 years old not take this medication. This is not a problem in older children and adults.
Drug interactions Be sure to tell your doctor about all of the medications you are taking, including over the counter drugs and natural remedies. Possible interactions with minocycline may occur when taking warfarin (Coumadin), antacids containing calcium, aluminum or magnesium (such as Tums, Rolaids, Maalox, or Mylanta), iron tablets, and oral contraceptives (birth control pills).
For more information The American College of Rheumatology has compiled this list to give you a starting point for your own additional research. The ACR does not endorse or maintain these Web sites, and is not responsible for any information or claims provided on them. It is always best to talk with your rheumatologist for more information and before making any decisions about your care.
Written by Michael Cannon, MD, and reviewed by the American College of Rhematology Communications and Marketing Committee.
Now, interluekin 10. What is that? How does it contribute to continued bacterial infection??
That article is somewhat related, but not really, I just thought everyone might find it interesting. Its about persistant bacterial infections. Its also in the journal nature, which by the way has a heck of a difficult peer review, not a easy journal to publish in.
I promise I'll find that journal that specifically deals with intracellular bacteria and IL-10.
On another note, Borrelia Burgdorferri does not primarily live inside our cells. It is primarily ouside the cells. However, some of them do live inside cells, or excape there to evade the immune system, antibiotics, ect...
But they are mostly outside the cell.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Still havn't found it, but here is something else.
Regulatory Role of T Cells Producing both Interferon and Interleukin 10 in Persistent Infection
Giorgio Trinchieri Laboratory for Immunological Research, Schering-Plough Research Institute, 69571 Dardilly, France
Address correspondence to Giorgio Trinchieri, Schering-Plough Laboratory for Immunological Research, 27 chemin des Peupliers, B.P. 11, 69571 Dardilly, France. Phone: 33-4-72-17-27-40; Fax: 33-4-78-35-47-50; E-mail: [email protected]
IL-10 was originally described as a cytokine produced by Th2 cells and mediating antiinflammatory effects, by acting primarily on phagocytic cells and on antigen-presenting cells (1). IL-10 inhibits, in these cells, transcription and production of proinflammatory cytokines, such as TNF and IL-12, expression of MHC class II, and costimulatory molecules, as well as the production of reactive oxygen and nitrogen intermediates (1). In part through inhibition of IL-12 production and of costimulatory molecule expression on antigen-presenting cells, IL-10 has an overall suppressive effect on the generation of Th1 responses. In addition, IL-10 profoundly affects the bactericidal activity of phagocytic cells, allowing intracellular survival of pathogens such as Mycobacterium tuberculosis (2) and Leishmania major (3). In addition to inhibit the intracellular bactericidal mechanisms, IL-10 was shown to prevent TNF-mediated apoptosis of M. tuberculosis infected macrophages thus possibly facilitating the maintenance of a chronic infection (4).
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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I am planning to start Minocycline alone for about two weeks then add Rifampin. This is primarily for Bartonella/Neuro Lyme (I've already been through a course of tetra and biaxin/plaq separately). You don't mention anything about using Mino with other meds, such as Rifampin. Lymesciene..or anyone, what are your thoughts on this?
Posts: 98 | From cambridge ma | Registered: Oct 2005
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Bartonella is a pesky bugger to treat. Its generally recommended to use two drugs with low MIC's against this organism. Here is some information. There are a lot of differnent opinions on this topic, however, the use of gentamicin seems to be a requisit for recovery.
Curr Opin Pediatr. 2001 Feb;13(1):56-9. Related Articles, Links
Treatment of cat-scratch disease.
Conrad DA.
University of Texas Health Science Center at San Antonio, Department of Pediatrics, 78229-3900, USA. [email protected]
Cat-scratch disease is an infection caused by Bartonella henselae, a fastidious gram-negative bacillus acquired from exposure to an infected kitten or cat. The most common manifestation of human disease is lymphadenitis. Atypical forms of infection include Parinaud oculoglandular syndrome, stellate neuroretinitis, persistent fever without localizing signs, hepatosplenic infection, encephalopathy, osteomyelitis, and endocarditis. Immunocompromised individuals with B. hensalae infection may develop bacillary angiomatosis, bacillary peliosis, and relapsing bacteremia with fever syndrome. The bacillus is susceptible to several antibacterial agents in vitro, including penicillins, cephalosporins, aminoglycosides, tetracyclines, macrolides, quinolones, trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole, and rifampin. Greatest clinical efficacy has been observed following treatment with rifampin, ciprofloxacin, gentamicin, trimethoprim and sulfamethoxazole, clarithromycin, and azithromycin. In one placebo-controlled study, azithromycin therapy was associated with more rapid diminution in size of infected lymph nodes. The majority of cases of cat-scratch disease occurring in normal hosts do not require anti-infective therapy for resolution of infection.
Publication Types: Review
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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I have been on Minocycline for 18 months now..... And have improved alot. Alot of my memory has come back, I don't walk in a room and forget what I came in there for anymore. I'm remembering peoples names when I meet them. Arthritis, joint pain, headaches, fatigue, (used to sleep for 15 hours a day, now 8 hours), facial flushing, stiff necks, shaking/tremors all have decreased..... and too many more things have gotten better on Mino.
Oh BTW --- I'm only on 200mg a WEEK! I started at 50mg a week and worked up to this.
My LLMD has written a medical article on the effects of Mino and lyme, its one of the best drugs for lyme he says. He has been treating and researching lyme since 1985, and has written over 3 dozen research medical articles on how to treat lyme and co-infections. I tend to believe him, especially since my whole family is on Mino and getting better.
posted
Listen, I'm not claiming that Doxycycline, or Minocycline do not work for Lyme. I just believe they make it hybernate. Also, Minocycline enters the brain far better than Doxycycline, so it may be a better choice for Nuerolyme.
But, I'm very skeptical of 200mg a week of Minocycline for Lyme. If this were true, I would really like to see a case report published.
What you are saying is just simply against all the known laws of Microbiology.
200 mg a week is not enough to sustain the MIC needed for this microbe to be immobile, which is what you are looking to do with a tetracycline class drug. In the report I just linked above, it shows clearly that one needs at least 3 days of over the MIC for Borrelia to make all of them stop moving.
Your case may represent someone whose immune system just needed a little help, and that is what did the trick, but I'd say its damned near impossible for 200mg Minocycline to treat Nuerolyme. It goes against everything we know about antimicrobial therapy.
Maybe, just maybe, your describing some kind of immunomodulary effect Minocycline had at such a small dose that allowed your immune system to fight the infection, but you are not describing a drug at that dose that will kill the infection, or even simply stop them all from moving.
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Jellybelly
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Thanks Lymescience, I really appreciate this info which I will have to read more carefully.
Lisi and I are definetly having similar good effects from the Mino, at least so it seems. I can't even take 200 mgs. a week yet, without a terrible herx. Something is dieing and it doesn't feele hibernation. I have only been able to get up to 30 mgs a week, split into 3 doses. Last time I took the Mino which some of you may remember about 6 weeks ago, I ended up with terrible pain in both wrists and one of them developed a ganglion cyst. As usual I weanied out and quit the ABX after about 3 weeks, slowly the herxing stopped and the cyst slowly went away. I just started the Mino again this week and am anxious to see if the cyst comes back. I have no doubt I am herxing on this low dose of Mino. I know this flies in the face of everything else we read, but I am getting well, so it seems and I am NOT taking massive amounts of ABX.
I was in terrible shape at one point in my life, death was not to far off for me, I have no doubt. I not only felt toxic and horrible, but I LOOKED toxic and horrible. I feel better and look better now then I have in my whole adult life. Mino and treating hypercoagulation have been the key I believe. Not just treating hypercoagulation with the natural options, but using heparin, which one study shows, kills Babs. I had very strong indicators of Babs. I was on heparin for 3 years or more. The heparin came about a year before ABX, so if it does kill Babs, they I amy have knocked out one coinfection. There are also those who suspect heparin kills Lyme as well. If that is the case then it kills at least two birds with one single stone and is something I would much rather take then ABX, since it is naturally occuring in the body.
Also, I am by no means a fan of Mr. Marshall, but he does say one thing and I am not sure if this was in regards to all ABX or just Mino. But he says Mino kills best at lower doses. He said that probably a year ago.
I know many people who have increased their herxing even on herbs by treating hypercoagulation with the natural alternatives. Low dose Mino and heparin are really pretty easy treatments, and especially if it works.
If Mino prevents replication, however it happens, then how much is needed to do this? If it locks them out of healthy cells then AWESOME, but how much is needed to do this? Why take 200 mgs daily, when 20 mgs. 3Xs a week will do? I have been as low as 3 mgs. and still herx. Maybe in the lower doses, this issue of IL-10 wouldn't be such an issue.
I am getting well, and I guess I should just be happy with that, but I would really like to understand WHY? That's my nature. IF I am really getting well on such low dose Mino, wouldn't it be nice if it worked for others, even if it is not all, but maybe some. Can't we be started small and work up if even needed? Why get out the machine gun, when a beebee gun will do? Most of these cell wall deficient organisms reproduce slowly. A few months on low dose isn't usually going to allow for them to overwhelm us to any greater extent then we already are.
[ 07. June 2006, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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I don't know why I am getting better at a low dose but I am! And so is my family. All three of my sons are on low dose Mino and are getting better.
My twin sons HAD OCD, its gone now, and other things I allready mentioned.
My doctor is looking at my family and extended family as a case study for low dose abx use. (We have 11 people in our family in all with LD)
The other thing that my LLMD says is ------ They don't know everthing there is to know about lyme yet!
Also I have had LD for 40 years, I think thats why I can't take more then that amount. It would kill me! The first time I took Doxy, I took 200mg and I wanted a gun to shoot myself in the head, I was in so much pain! I was in a fetal position! I couldn't walk because my knees hurt so bad, I couldn't move.
My mother got bit in 1962 in Germany and cannot take more then 25mg of Mino a week. She just started on abx last summer. She has switched to Zith & malerone (Also low doses) for babs.
BTW --- Jellybelly ---- Mino lasts in your system for a whole week. So you may want to try it once a week. Thats how I take it because then I actually have good days by the end of the week (I get all my herxing overwith, Monday & Tuesday)
posted
Listen, I'm not discounting what you are saying. Its certainly possible you are feeling better, but as we are not in the "mainstream" in the scientific world as it is, we have to be very clear about what we are saying.
First off, Minocycline does not last in the body for a week in theraputic levels. The theraputic levels of a drug are mostly defined by the half life of the drug, the exception is when you take megadoses, in which case the theraputic levels may stay longer than the normal half life.
The half life of Minocycline is between 16-24 hours. This allows for a once daily dosing.
But, to explain this phenomina, I have found a possible explaination. First off, the feeling better that you describe, is almost certainly not due to its antimcrobial effects, unless by some strange occurance you have some kind of mutant Borrelia when an Ketek like MIC for your inparticular strain.
MIC means minimun inhibatory concentration, or the concentration of a drug needed to inhibit at least 90percent of all isolates(bacteria in this case). Minocycilne has an MIC that ranges
In contrast, doxycycline-treated cultures revealed single organisms with gradually decreasing motilities after 18 h of incubation at concentrations greater than MIC90; after 24 h there was a loss of motility without marked morphological alterations. After 4 days of incubation 90% of the bacteria were immotile. In cultures grown in the presence of concentrations
Here is something else about how Doxy works, and Why low does are not such a good idea.
It was interesting that in B. burgdorferi cultures containing penicillin or doxycycline at 0.1 time the MIC90 high numbers of intact borreliae were present. This situation must be considered when low doses of antibiotics are prescribed or when an irregular antibiotic treatment is performed by the patient. Tetracyclines act on the bacterial ribosome by inhibiting bacterial protein synthesis (31). The changes in the borreliae after incubation with doxycycline were completely different. Primary immobilization was seen, along with the development of multiple ovoid structures (mesosomes) whose function has not yet been clarified. They have been described as ovoid condensations of the protoplasmic cylinder and were shown by Ovcinnikov and Deletorskij (24), Holt (12), and Hovind-Hougen (13) to differ in their structures and functions, but they could not yet be classified further. They were seen to communicate with the exterior and were interconnected by long channels. In our investigations they were either ovoid or bazillary. They were separated from the surrounding protoplasmic cylinder by a double-layered membrane and represented an internal part of the cytoplasmic cylinder separated by a small cleft. This gave the impression that a new borrelia developed and separated in the protoplasmic cylinder after 1 day. After 4 days two protoplasmic cylinders were occasionally seen surrounded by a single outer membrane. Mesosomes or spores have been observed in T. pallidum and were shown to be associated with those parts of the spirochete undergoing transverse fission (12, 13). On the other hand, coccoid, vibrio-like, or even bazillary bodies have been identified in the blood of patients with recurrent fever at the ``crisis'' and in tick eggs after infection with Borrelia duttoni (8). These bodies can cause spirochetemia and death after inoculation into laboratory mice (8). In the present study it could not be evaluated whether the immotile B. burgdorferi organisms are only paralyzed after exposure to doxycyline, similar to T. pallidum in immobilization tests (15), or whether they are killed. Culture constituents other than BSK medium, tissue elements, or cells might be responsible for keeping borrelia parts viable and capable of division. Because motility was demonstrated to be one important factor for the invasion of tissue, such as the endothelium (32), doxycycline possibly prevents the intracellular invasion of spirochetes or active dissemination. less than the MIC90, the proportion of motile spirochetes was 25%. Morphological alterations similar to those induced by penicillin or ceftriaxone developed only occasionally after 4 days of incubation. Spherical bodies of 0.8 to 1.4 mm were found free in the culture after 18 h of incubation in all culture experiments. Subcultures from all investigated samples containing antibiotics carried out on day 4 and examined by dark-field microscopy once weekly for up to 2 weeks only revealed small granules and self-moving rods but no borrelia organisms with regular morphologies.
Here is a quote from a study about Minocycline and Lyme.
"Minocycline and ciprofloxacin MSC/MIC ratios were frequently higher than 8, indicating a lower bactericidal activity of these compounds against borreliae."
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Sorry, forgot to give the MIC, and MBC. While there is not much data on Minocycline, here is the info on Doxycycline and others. Doxy should be very close to Mino.
Follow this link, and at the bottom of the page, click on table 1. It will give you the MIC's and MBC's for Doxy.
lymeHerx001
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posted
I didnt read through all these posts however I too herx on just 1 doxy, and as of late 1/2 cap of doxy.
I herx hard, severe pain, burning skin, depression, burning eyes, fatigue
Are you telling me that this is not a herx and it is something else? What could it possibly be then.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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Good question. My guess is that this is not a Herx. It doesn't make sense. Unless someone here knows something I don't, and that Tetracycline class drugs behave widly different in vivo, then you are most likely not experiencing a herx. More likely some kind of alergic reaction. The doses are not high enough.
Another possible explanation is that you don't have Lyme disease. You have something else, which co-incidentally also causes a herx. This is well known in Rhuematic Disease circles where they routinly prescribe doses such as this, and the people also herx. The key is that while they have a bacterial infection, they don't have Lyme Disease. Lyme diseas can't be killed with those kind of doses.
However, here is one other possible explanation, Minocycline also causes the body to produce IL-6. This would support an immunomodulary effect for those who actually have Lyme Disease, and this low dose Minocycline works for them.
Interleukin-6 promotes anti-OspA borreliacidal antibody production in vitro.
University of Wisconsin, Wisconsin State Laboratory of Hygiene, 465 Henry Mall, Madison, WI 53706, USA.
Determination of the immunological mediators responsible for promoting the production of borreliacidal antibody may facilitate the development of an improved borreliosis vaccine for human and veterinary use. Previously, we developed an in vitro assay to determine if borreliacidal antibody production could be augmented by treatment with different cytokines. In this study, in vitro treatment of lymph node cells producing borreliacidal antibody with recombinant interleukin-6 (rIL-6) resulted in a fourfold enhancement of anti-OspA borreliacidal antibody. Moreover, rIL-6 enhanced Western immunoblot titers and increased the number of B lymphocytes. In contrast, treatment of anti-OspA borreliacidal antibody-producing cells with anti-IL-6 resulted in a fourfold reduction in borreliacidal activity. Treatment with anti-IL-6 also inhibited enhanced borreliacidal antibody production induced by anti-gamma interferon. These data suggest that IL-6 plays a significant role in the production of anti-OspA borreliacidal antibodies.
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lymeHerx001
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Id like to add that when I was first put on doxy I noticed nothing. I was on 100mg BID for one month.
After I took flagyl for about 3 months I returned to the doxy at the advice of my LLMD.
Started on same dose. After 3 days I couldnt move. It hit me like a ton of bricks.
So I stopped, I felt great for 2 days. Two of the best days ive had in 2 years.
Now like I said small doses elicit this response.
What is going on!?
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lymeHerx001
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Im reading your response now. THanks!
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lymeHerx001
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So the stimulation of IL-6 is allowing my body to attack the lyme? Or does the antibody response increase inflamation which in turn is causing what I percieve to be a herx?
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posted
You can argue with my LLMD, hes been doing the research on it for 20+ years. He told me that Mino lasts in the body for a week. He knows the doses I'm on(he put me on them). So if your saying hes wrong you can tell him....
One question ---- What Medical Degree do you have?
BTW-- I have LD, I had a positive ELISA, and IND WB with bands 18+, 30++, 31IND, 34IND, 39IND, 41++, 45IND, 58++, 66++, 93+
posted
No. 100mg of Doxy is enough to elicit a herx from Lyme Disease, thats sifficient to be at the needed MIC at least for the blood, and some tissues, but certainly not the brain. If you meant 200mg per day, then yeah, once again, thats enough to possibly stop growth, and kill some spirochetes, causing a legitamate Lyme disease Herx.
My point was in reference to taking something like 30mg of Doxycycline a day, or 200mg of Minocycline a week. That is not going to cause a Lyme Disease Herx.
I can see this as legit therapy for Maintanace, but certainly not in the course of actually treating the disease.
I'm not trying to alienate anyone. I have Lyme Disease, and I have Chronic Lyme Disease, My only point is that this is a real disease, and we should apply real science to this disease.
We will never beat this disease unless we strive to understand it.
I don't believe any of us should be so dogmatic as to say well, 30mg a day, and I'm better. Ok, thats great, but why are you better?
The explanation of antimicrobial action at that dosage just doesn't make sence. I'm open to anyone who can explain why this could happen, but I think the best explanation is that these low doses change the immune system, allowing the body to fight the infection much better.
Or it could be that the herx is from mycobacteria. I don't know. I only know that we should base our observations on sound science, good judgement, and leave bickering out of this. We are all in this fight together, so just because I question 200mg a week, it doesn't make me some kind of traitor.
We need to ask these questions because we need to know everything we possibly can about Lyme, and how it works in the body. So, if those who are using this low dose have found a way to stimulate the immune system, as we are very sure they have Lyme. We need to find out why this is helping them.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Yes it stays in the body for a week. That was not the point I was making. The point was in reference to how long the levels of this drug stay about the MIC, which is NOT a week.
I can't say for certainty if this applies to every single person, as Minocycline builds up in tissues the longer one takes this medicine. But, I'm very very doubtfull that 200mg a week, even accounting for the buildup would reach antimicrobial levels.
What is so wrong with the thought that it changes your immune system, helping you to fight the infection. There is direct evidence that IL-6 increases antibody production 4 fold.
There is direct evidenc that Minocycline causes the body to produce IL-6. There is no evidence, so far as I'm aware, that these doses are sifficient to reach the needed MIC levels.
Also, borrelia are killed at higher doses with Doxycyline, in other words, the higher the dose, the better it is against the organism. However, one has to be aware of taking too much to come to a point where your harming your body so much with a drug, that any effects it has on Borrelia are meaningless.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Lisianthus wrote: "You really sound like troll to me!
You haven't been on lymenet very long.(MAY 2006) I don't know who you are. I don't know anything about you. You sound like you want discount Lyme Disease.
You don't have any credentials.
Hummm, I smell a Troll???
BECAREFUL PEOPLE "
I don't understand why you are being so rude to me. I have a chronic disease that I'm trying to understand and treat. I also genuinly care about the health of other people with Lyme Disease.
I find comments like the one you made insensitive and cruel. I hope you find the humanity to apoligize for such behavior. There was no basis for that kind of attack.
In the previous post, I tried to explain myself in a non confrontational way. Just because I dissagree with you, it does not make me a bad person. I am fully willing to hear you out on this point, because otherwise, if you have no rational basis for your argument, I fear for other Lyme Disease patients.
If you have found some kind of therapy that works wonders, we would all like to hear of it. But, the only thing with any good evidence to date are the guildlines from Dr. B, and the ILADS.
Nowhere in those guildlines do they recommend Minocycline doses like you suggest. I hope your anger stems from a lack of communication, and that your purpose is not to hurt those of us who have Lyme Disease. This is not a funny disease, or something that should not be taken seriously. Many of us have had our lives nearly ruined by Lyme.
The lyme community does not need this kind of anger. In any case, I wish you health, and continued health. If you have Lyme, may you, and your family go into remission. I hope you are praying the same for me and others who suffer from Lyme Disease.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Lymescience, I love that you are a thinker and appear to have some scientific experience. Keep in mind that you yourself said Mino doesn't kill Lyme directly, in itself.
You then said, "I think the best explanation is that these low doses change the immune system, allowing the body to fight the infection much better." This is EXACTLY what I am suggesting. Somehow, and I really have no definite idea how, but the low dose Mino allows our own immune sytem to do the work that other ABX do, but only ABX are indecriminate in what they kill. Killing anythinng and everything in the vacinity which isn't part of our bodies, not always a good thing. Our immune system targets things that don't belong. That's what we want isn't it?
This is a herx, no doubt, couldn't be an allergic reaction. For one, with the Doxy, I was fine for 8 days, then wham! With the mino, sure achey, fatigue and your typical herx stuff happen, but then new things appear and then disappear, like I am working through layers or something.
Science is really important, but you have to admit it is VERY limited. It is only as good as what is understood to date. Truth is, it doesn't sound like anyone really clearly understands how the tetracyclines work, other then that they don't kill directly, and that seems to be a good idea, if it is somehow getting the immune system invlolved.
Again, I still need to reread your stuff more throuoghly. I do appreciate your taking the time. If you have the science know how, maybe you can solve this puzzle in your spare time. Maybe you will find the cure.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Whoa, I just read on, and I really don't want to see this thread turned into a troll hunt.
Topic is only meant to toss around some ideas. I know this is not what the usuall Lyme specialist will recommend, but I do have to agree with Lisi's doc when he said, we don't know everything there is to know about Lyme. I'd bet my house, that treatment will change quite a bit, before we get it nailed to the floor.
We have the treatments we have, not only because of willing doctors, but because of US! People not willing to give up. We fought for these doctors and they didn't just figure all this out without us. WE came up with alot of really good ideas, and as for the really good doctors, they listened to us. We are a team with our doctors. It is a sharing of all possible ideas that has gotten us to where we are today. There is a protocol out there, but without a doubt it doesn't work for everyone, and some tweaking is still in order.
Let's keep brainstorming.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Of course your making me angry.... You saying its immpossible for me to herx on the doses I'm on... when I do.... a little " insensitive and cruel" on your part huh???
Your the one saying I don't have lyme! I think your comments to me have been "insensitive and cruel" Are you my doctor? Have you looked at my Brain Spect? And all of my testing? So you've been researching lyme for 20 years have ya??
I came on saying that Mino has helped me(not cured) at low doses. Thats it, and you found it necessary to make sure to undermine everything I say.
And you've said....
quote: I hope your anger stems from a lack of communication, and that your purpose is not to hurt those of us who have Lyme Disease. This is not a funny disease, or something that should not be taken seriously. Many of us have had our lives nearly ruined by Lyme.
So "those of us who have Lyme" is not ME? Is that what your saying? I don't find it funny either when 11 people in my family have it including my three sons...... Oh and I suppose they don't have it either because they herx from low dose Mino too?
I think you made a mistake and you should be humble enough to admit it. LS did not attack you - but rather he questioned the science behind your argument. Frankly, as a Mino patient of Dr. J (NC), I can't see it either. In the meantime, you attacked him personally.
I have seen this on this board - when someone questions one LLMD - he's a troll. Heck, Steere studies lyme for 30 years and we all know he's not getting it! Just questioning a doc's assertions doesn't make people bad guys.
I hope you take the time to see the full picture.
Posts: 109 | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
This person is saying I don't even have lyme disease because I can't possibly herx on a low dose. I didn't attack him/her. I have seen trolls on here before, I have seen doctors under investigation and people trying to destroy how we all can get well with long term abx. I have been on this board for years.
All's I said was I believe my LLMD and what hes doing for me.... I never said low dose works for everyone... it doesn't. But saying I can't possibly herx from a low dose is mean and cruel.
I have went through alot and so has my family, and I don't need someone coming along saying I don't have LD. I thinks that the worse thing to say to someone with lyme (since they have to fight to get a diagnosis and treatment)
posted
dear lymescience can you clarrify what dose of mino you are talking about?is that 200 a day or a week?also although mino and doxy are in a differant class they are not the same at all...they also penetrate tissues differantly...mino does kill directly in high does of 150 to 250 grams a day....mino also works at small doses...it is thought that it stays under the radar of the immune system....it does not kill it at low dose but makes it so it cant reproduce...doxy is by far less effective then mino at low doses...you stated that mino was not good for lyme...where did you figure that out? you are mistaken..... please clear this up... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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"dear lymescience can you clarrify what dose of mino you are talking about?is that 200 a day or a week?also although mino and doxy are in a differant class they are not the same at all...they also penetrate tissues differantly...mino does kill directly in high does of 150 to 250 grams a day....mino also works at small doses...it is thought that it stays under the radar of the immune system....it does not kill it at low dose but makes it so it cant reproduce...doxy is by far less effective then mino at low doses...you stated that mino was not good for lyme...where did you figure that out? you are mistaken..... please clear this up... eric"
Absolutly, I have no problem clearing that up for you. I must say however that you are in error concerning Doxycycline and Minocycline. They are in fact in the same class of drugs known as the Tetracycline Family of antibiotics. They do penetrate tissues differently however, and I was not in error over this issue. If you read my postings, I clearly state that Minocycline penetrates the brain better than Doxycyclin. I was well aware of the differences in tissue penetration between these two drugs, it has to do with Minocycline's greater hydrophillic properties.
As far as Minocycline dosage, My reference was to something like 200mg a week. Certainly 200 mg a day is an dose efficient for treating Lyme disease, or at least certain types of Lyme Disease. At that dosage, you can take on the Lyme Bacteria outright, not relying on the immune system as much as one would have to with say 200 mg a week.
As far as Mino and Lyme, this was just my personal opinion on the subject, as others apparently have other opinions on the subject. My opinion of Minocycline is based primarily my personal experience, and my reading of the medical literature. I never said however that Minocycline and Doxycyline don't treat Lyme. I just said that it was my opinion that they paralyze the bacteria, whereas drugs Like Rocephin directly kill the bacteria by making it kinda explode. Doxycyline is well known for the treatment of Lyme Disease, as is Minocycline. I just prefer drugs like Rocephin that kill outright, and for protein inhibitors, I like Zithromax and ketek much better as they have much more impressive MIC's than Doxycyline or Minocycline. I even like the use of some Floroquinolones, as they also have good tissue penetration, and some will kill outright the Lyme Bacteria. Obviously there are different opinions on this, but I feel it is in many ways turned into a witch hunt just because I voiced a scientific dissagreement. VERY UNCOOL.
I believe the best explanation was given by a previous post of what this herx is that people are experiencing. I didn't read it, unfortunatly, the first time through.
quote:Originally posted by lymeHerx001: So the stimulation of IL-6 is allowing my body to attack the lyme? Or does the antibody response increase inflamation which in turn is causing what I percieve to be a herx?
Yes!!! Bingo. Its like a herx, but not as we traditionally understand herxes. Its the activation of the immune system by means of antibody production, rather than the stimulation of the immune system by means of the dead bacterial parts and toxins causing our symptoms to flair. This may represent a novel treatment of Lyme, or at least it helps to add to the knowledge of the disease. Another piece of the puzzle if you will, and its interesting to hear the stories of some people for whom this has worked, and to get a scientific idea of why this may be working. Not nessesarily through antibacterial properties per sa, but through stimulation of IL-6, which leads to a 4 fold increase in antibody production, which stimulates inflamation, which causes symptoms similar to a Herx.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newdurham77: Lisianthus,
I think you made a mistake and you should be humble enough to admit it. LS did not attack you - but rather he questioned the science behind your argument. Frankly, as a Mino patient of Dr. J (NC), I can't see it either. In the meantime, you attacked him personally.
I have seen this on this board - when someone questions one LLMD - he's a troll. Heck, Steere studies lyme for 30 years and we all know he's not getting it! Just questioning a doc's assertions doesn't make people bad guys.
I hope you take the time to see the full picture.
Thankyou Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Lisianthus, if you felt you were attacked by me, I'm sorry you came to that conclusion. Looks like we will have to agree to dissagree, but I am sad that you have been unremorseful.
The quote you highlighted had nothing to do with any implication that I questioned your diagnosis of Lyme disease. I listed at least 3 different possibilities of why this was working for you, and I even said I didn't know fully. Only one of those reasons was that you did not have Lyme disease. The more likely reason still concerned Lyme Disease, and its in this previous post about how Mino in those doses may work for some people.
I agree that we don't know everything, thats an understatement, and I have never claimed to know everything about Lyme disease. If I did, I'd be living a normal life right now rather than trying to read everything I can get my hands on so I can better understand the disease that has ruined my life.
So we may not agree on everything, but this at least we can all agree upon Lisianthus does have Lyme, neuropsychiatric Lyme
I hope you understood that to be a joke. It was supposed to make you laugh. This has gotten far too serious
I hope you and your family return to health. Lyme Diseeas is a horrible illness which you clearly have.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
lyme science... are you a person in the medical field?i ask you this because you are using very techinical info...I must tell you that doxy and mino are in the same class of antibiotic...but that is where it ends...it is extremly differant...mino works much better then doxy and reaches areas that doxy cant...the bbb is only one area...the testis barrier is another....just because they are in the same class does not make them the same...as far as your comment about rocephin..it does NOT kill lyme any better then high dose mino...in fact mino can kill at a better rate then rochephin...trust me the best drug out there is mino and it is a herx that we are experiencing...yes it has also to do with inflamation but that is only part of what is going on...high does rochephin does NOT work as it is to powerful and does not react to some borrelia species...trust me rochephine does not work for everyone...if I could predict the future I would say that mino will be the drug of the century because of its properties.... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
We certainly agree on that Eric, Rocephin does not work for everyone. Treatment failures are seen in all regamines.
I think this just highlights the differences in our bodies, and our opinions. Some people see Rocephin as liquid gold, for others it does not do much. Some people see Minocycline as a miracle cure, for others, its just a drug thats good ever so often to keep the Borrelia from developing resistance.
I think a lot of interesting points have been made concerning Minocycline, and certainly much more study is needed.
So, I urge this of anyone having big time success with Minocycline. Document everything you can. Time of day you take the meds, when you take your probiotics, vitamins, exercise. Anything that could be considered in the realm of causality. We need to understand cause and effect.
Keep a list of your symptoms, and try to give all this info to your LLMD. If there is some kind of peice to the puzzle that Minocycline may be able to add. We all need the bennifit of those who do well with this drug, and we need to know exactly why. So get your pens and papers, and do some science for the rest of us.
The more we know, the sooner we will be to a cure.
PS: I'm kinda in the medical field, I was on my way to Med school before I was too dibilitated to continue school.
I hope to begin my first year of med school within about a year.
When I'm done, I plan on treating Lyme Disease, AND specializing in infectious disease. That organization needs some differing views, and I think that my success rate with patients will be much better than people like Shapiro who will just tell you your crazy.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
lyme science mino is the one that worked for me...I can herx on a low dose but it does not stop it...it must be 150 or above...i cycle for three weeks ramping gradually...I believe as well as you that the spirochete wont be killed at that dose of 200mgs a week ....it will however work on the inflamation of the disease and that can cause a herx from the inflamation...this drug worked were others did not...ketek and mino and doxy...are far more effective then rocephin in my opinion and based on my results...it turned around a severe specked scan... it is not an easy drug to take and the herx on the higher doses is very severe...I believe you must cycle this drug as it is needed to catch them off guard... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
This website provides much information about 50 years of research conducted by Dr Thomas P Brown concerning RA and low dose meds from the tetracycline family with minocin being the most preferred.
It talks about the theory of rendering the bacteria incapable of reproducing. His research results showed the low dose pulsed was superior to higher doses on a daily basis. Higher doses seemed to act only as a DMARD. As Lymescience said, the Mino is present in the body for 24 hrs or less and the actual good was achieved on the off day when the Mino is leaving the body. Hence, the good of pulsing.
His research states that low dose never produced a case of yeast infection or a negative side effect of any kind. I have read reports from other doctors who follow this protocol today and they state the same thing. It is very safe. He did not feel it was an adequate dose for lyme (but lyme was not his focus) and not effective for streptacoccus(needs amoxicillan). His research resulted in 70% positive responses of either improved symptoms or total remission.
His main focus was mycoplasmas but he devotes an entire chapter to Lyme disease in his book "The Road Back" as well as streptococcus. His research found these 3 bacteria (any one of which could be present as well as all 3) and only these 3 in his studies of synovial fluid of RA patients.
There are a number of people today who are following this protocol for a number of rheumatic diseases with very good results.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Beverly
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 1271
posted
My sister does have lyme, as do all of my entire family. I am NOT a doctor..so I can't comment on all of the latest and greatest studies, I do know that in Dr. B guidelines it says that Doxy and Mino can kill at higher dosages.
I can comment on my own personal experience....I had a very bad herx off of Mino a few years ago.
I have even had different opinions to why I herxed that way? One doctor said Mino was a chelator of metals/mercury? My LLMD at the time called it a neuro- herx. I do believe it was a herx.
I personally herx off of alot of stuff, Vit C, Fishoil and low dose Zithromax/Malarone/ Plaquenil, and I am getting better.
I can understand why my sister became suspicious of lymescience.... you sound like your a doctor or a person who knows alot..even more than our LLMD? And as I have the same LLMD as she does, we are both used to our very humble doctor saying quite alot...he doesn't know everything. And he is very great doctor, who we (meaning my sisters and I) am in awe of.
Take this statement you made..
``But, to explain this phenomina, I have found a possible explaination. First off, the feeling better that you describe, *is almost certainly not due to its antimcrobial effects*, unless by some strange occurance you have some kind of mutant Borrelia when an Ketek like MIC for your inparticular strain''
Our LLMD does not even talk this way.
And I don't what you mean when you keep saying...*we *
We who??? who's we??? I am almost certain your not including me..in the we? so this does sound kinda suspicious. If you are not a troll then I will apologize on her behalf. I am truly sorry from my whole family. And believe me getting any kind of apology on lymenet is rare.
You said
"This is not a funny disease, or something that should not be taken seriously." "So we may not agree on everything, but this at least we can all agree upon Lisianthus does have Lyme, neuropsychiatric Lyme
"I hope you understood that to be a joke. It was supposed to make you laugh. This has gotten far too serious"
I agree with you 100%, No it's not funny..not at all, my sister is very sick, she does have neuropsychiatric Lyme, so do I, my mother, my father, and my other sister.....it's not fun at all.
My son also has, cogwheel Pursuits, which can be the marker for schizophrenia. And I have different opinions from doctors on this..one says he is schizophrenic and other says not to worry about it, and they are all Great doctors, but even they don't have all the answers to everything.
They are just trying to help people and do no harm, but all of us are fumbling in the dark to a certain point and no one has all the answers to everything. Can't wait til I die and then I get to ask God some questions.
I wish you health, happiness and only good things in your life.
Sincerley, Beverly
Posts: 6641 | From Michigan | Registered: Jun 2001
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posted
Thanks, I plan on reading that! I've read several articles on rhuematic diseases treated with very low dose Minocycline, and I had tried to allude to that in one of my posts.
I'll have to check this out, I'd like to see how he explains Lyme disease, and its treatment in this manner. Perhaps he can explain it to me in a way that makes sence scientifically.
Thanks for the link:)
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Beverly: My sister does have lyme, as do all of my entire family. I am NOT a doctor..so I can't comment on all of the latest and greatest studies, I do know that in Dr. B guidelines it says that Doxy and Mino can kill at higher dosages.
I can comment on my own personal experience....I had a very bad herx off of Mino a few years ago.
I have even had different opinions to why I herxed that way? One doctor said Mino was a chelator of metals/mercury? My LLMD at the time called it a neuro- herx. I do believe it was a herx.
I personally herx off of alot of stuff, Vit C, Fishoil and low dose Zithromax/Malarone/ Plaquenil, and I am getting better.
I can understand why my sister became suspicious of lymescience.... you sound like your a doctor or a person who knows alot..even more than our LLMD? And as I have the same LLMD as she does, we are both used to our very humble doctor saying quite alot...he doesn't know everything. And he is very great doctor, who we (meaning my sisters and I) am in awe of.
Take this statement you made..
``But, to explain this phenomina, I have found a possible explaination. First off, the feeling better that you describe, *is almost certainly not due to its antimcrobial effects*, unless by some strange occurance you have some kind of mutant Borrelia when an Ketek like MIC for your inparticular strain''
Our LLMD does not even talk this way.
And I don't what you mean when you keep saying...*we *
We who??? who's we??? I am almost certain your not including me..in the we? so this does sound kinda suspicious. If you are not a troll then I will apologize on her behalf. I am truly sorry from my whole family. And believe me getting any kind of apology on lymenet is rare.
You said
"This is not a funny disease, or something that should not be taken seriously." "So we may not agree on everything, but this at least we can all agree upon Lisianthus does have Lyme, neuropsychiatric Lyme
"I hope you understood that to be a joke. It was supposed to make you laugh. This has gotten far too serious"
I agree with you 100%, No it's not funny..not at all, my sister is very sick, she does have neuropsychiatric Lyme, so do I, my mother, my father, and my other sister.....it's not fun at all.
My son also has, cogwheel Pursuits, which can be the marker for schizophrenia. And I have different opinions from doctors on this..one says he is schizophrenic and other says not to worry about it, and they are all Great doctors, but even they don't have all the answers to everything.
They are just trying to help people and do no harm, but all of us are fumbling in the dark to a certain point and no one has all the answers to everything. Can't wait til I die and then I get to ask God some questions.
I wish you health, happiness and only good things in your life.
Sincerley, Beverly
I'm so sorry about your son. Whether he has Lyme, or something else, goodluck.
Your right concerning my use of pronouns. I use we, you, and others too much. Others have pointed that out to me, but sometimes with my Lyme Brain, I have a difficult time.
I almost certainly do mean ME, and I find it just as insulting as your sister, while she directly implied I didn't have Lyme, I never did that to her. I even said in one post, that if scientists/lyme disease doctors/patients (before I had worded it as we, but now that I've included the actual reference, perhaps it helps clear ambiguity) could understand why this (meaning extremely low doses of Minocycline)worked for people we (scientists, patients, LLMD's) knew had Lyme (your sister, and others here) then perhaps it would teach us a great deal about how the immune system responds to Lyme Disease.
I have not yet read the link posted by someone else regarding Rhuematic Diseases, so my opinion my change later on today. But as of right now, I still don't believe that those doses are enough to directly attack the Lyme spirochete. I think at that kinda dose, there is some immune system anamoly going on. I WANT TO UNDERSTAND IT.
Let me help to clear things up for you about why I may speak in ways that seem "suspect". I was the validictorian of my highschool class. I was the validictorian in my college class until Lyme Disease struck me.
I was going into medicine anyways, now that I've had this disease, in its chronic form, I have an intense burning passion to figure it out. Currently, even though I have very little energy, I still work at a research lab. My boss there is the most published author in the world concerning tick bourne Bartonella.
That said, he and I share many dissagreements. He doesn't think Lyme is as serious as I do. I think Lyme is terrible, and is not given its proper due.
One of the major hurdles we have is that we only have a very small amount of eminent scientists working for us. The rest work for them. So, they get all the grants, and get to dictate all the public policy.
It is my dream to help change that. I want to work from the inside, and to do that, I must understand Lyme the way they do. They must be fought on many levels, one of those being the legitamate arena of ideas. I think, no, I know that we can win that fight. We just don't have enough warriors.
I can't begin to tell you how much I've suffered from Lyme Disease, so in essense I understand why your sister may have reacted inappropriatly.
I still don't understand why she has refused to offer an aplogy. Its the decent humane thing to do, especially to fellow Lymies.
However, I want to thank you for your Humility, and grace, for trying to bridge that gap.
I wish you health, and my prayers are with you.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Ok, can we get back on track........please? We may be on to something here.
I have read some of the info offered on how Mino works, and one thing keeps popping out at me. How do we know this? Where are the tests done?
One of the tests was on sheeps blood, ok, so? But where was it done......in a test tube! Sure, put in the bacteria or maybe it was already contaminated, add ABX in varying doses and watch what happens. Seems to kill in higher doses. But that is in a test tube!!!
That doesn't really say anything about what it does inside of the human body. Is there a way to measure that? Does low dose stimulate something in the immune system to kill Lyme on it's own? Seems to be known that it stops reproduction, that is a really good thing. If you stop reproduction, eventually it will die off of it's own accord.....right? How much is needed to do that?
I herx on nano doses, is that enough? Is this why I am nearly well?
[ 08. June 2006, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: Jellybelly ]
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
That's an excellent question you've highlighted. Yes there is a way to measure how much Minocycline is floating around in the body. I'll find that out for you.
However, I also think we are onto something. The ebb and flow of ideas are going to lead us to the most likely answer. I'll be spending much of my day today reading through science articles.
I have some ideas, but I want to look into as many areas as I can, because if what happens with people taking low doses of Mino is related to the immune system, as I hypothesize, then perhaps it may be a good addition to the treatment that most of us are already taking. The exception being anything with Mepron, because that would reduce blood levels by 40percent.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Here is some information and those of you with more knowledge can give your opinions as to whether this holds water. This comes from the Marshall Protocol board and I will give links.
Minocycline is a 30S bacterial ribosomal inhibitor,http://tinyurl.com/9r5hj so it preferentially inhibits protein synthesis of these bacterial pathogens. However, it can also inhibit mammalian protein synthesis to a degree, which we generally don't want to do...this can supress the immune system and other important functions. So, we want just enough inhibition to block the pathogens ability to synthesize proteins without significantly inhibiting our own ability to synthesize proteins .
Dr. McPherson Brown's Roadback protocol is based on the same premise that intracellular bacteria cause RA and it uses Minocin 100mg every other day. This allows the minocycline tissue level to fall and weaken the bacteria. For many people, that has been an effective method to kill intracellular bacteria (as evidenced by Herxheimer reactions) and reduce inflammation to some degree. Most people, however, do not consider it a cure and do not have complete resolution of their RA symptoms.
The Marshall Pathogenesis describes how Benicar blocks angiotensin to allow the immune system to function normally and thus much more effectively kill the intracellular bacteria that are weakened by the decaying minocycline in the tissues. This can result in unexpected Herxheimer reactions that are too severe to tolerate. Stopping the minocycline often stops the Herxheimer reaction.
But sometimes, the immune system continues to function very effectively, killing large amounts of intracellular bacteria even without minocyline in the tissues. In that case, we have learned that by using frequent, minocycline dosing, minocycline functions in its role as an NSAID. This is because maintaining a constant level of minocycline in the tissues doesn't weaken the bacteria and this usually relieves the intolerable Herxheimer symptoms. Minocycline elicits the maximum Herxheimer response as its tissue concentration decays away to zero, so increasing mino frequency, although seeming counter-intuitive, actually dampens Herxheimer reactions best. ==============================================
the same antibiotics that block the ability of the bacterial ribosome to create proteins, and thus weaken them, also have a modulatory effect on the immune system itself. This has never been defined in any papers I have seen, but is likely when we consider that most of the antibiotics have come from a parasitic source - mino from a strep mutant, etc. It would be folly to assume they have no effect on the host.
The exact reason why high-dose, and high-frequency, minocycline behave differently from pulsatile minocycline is still elusive. The best guess I can give right now is that Demeclocycline was originally isolated from a Strep mutant species, and minocycline is minimally modified from demeclocycline only by the substitution of a chlorine with a methyl group.
I do not follow the MP at all, but there are numerouos points that he makes tha have been EXACTLY what I experience. I have tried the Benicar and got very sick, so until all the kinks are worked out I just watch.Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
I took 1/4 cap of doxy yesterday.
I felt like crud an hour later. A deep depression also set in, when I was in a decent mood before.
This morning I woke up and felt and looked hungover.
I was so stiff I couldnt move, in pain, my face looked swollen, my co-workers asked if I was allright.
Well about 2 hours later I started to feel GOOD> The pain left my body and my head cleared up and I was seing color and distinctions in my visual field again.
My sense of depth was also enhanced. This lasted for an hour and then my legs started to hurt again.
I went home for lunch and took another small dose of doxy. Now I got some twitching in my muscles and the burning came back in my feet and hands.
Im convinced the doxy is doing something.
I was taking 200mg a day a month ago and after a week I couldnt move.
I began to pulse and then I found that even 1 whole cap would set me back for days.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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