Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Lymescience, not just how much Mino is floating around in the blood, and I think the graphs above will give that answer, but more important, what effect is it having on our immune system? Why at these low doses is there a die off causing a herx? Is the low dose somehow firing up our immune system OR is it making the pathogens more visible to our immune system (and personally, I don't think the immune system is broken)?Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Ok Jelly, I get your point. I'll try to get anything I can, in a way that quantifies the dosage, and its effects. I don't know if I can find direct evidence Linking Borrelia and this effect, but I may. I'm pretty sure I can find other examples in quantifable measurements.
This will take me some time.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
The IL-10 and Mino thing concerns me. My son is taking Mino and not much seems to be improving or happening at all. I find the issue confusing. It's the old: when is it okay to suppress inflammation? It seems that we want to do that, but not when it inhibits the immune system. I'm not the only one confused about IL-10:
1: Immunol Rev. 2004 Dec;202:223-36. Interleukin-10 in viral diseases and cancer: exiting the labyrinth?
Vicari AP, Trinchieri G.
Schering-Plough Laboratory for Immunological Research, Dardilly, France. [email protected]
Interleukin-10 (IL-10) is unique among cytokines, as it is considered both as a potent immunostimulatory and immunosuppressive factor. This complex biology has been particularly challenging when trying to define the useful or harmful role of IL-10 in chronic viral diseases and cancer. In the present review, we emphasize how these multiple roles define IL-10 as an adaptive molecule, constantly tuning the host response against dangerous and resourceful pathogens.
PMID: 15546396 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
- Kate D
Posts: 11 | From Halifax, NS, Canada | Registered: Mar 2005
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Ok, so heres an update on how the low dose doxy did today.
I was feeling good and pain free at around 11:00/ mind you I woke up feeling terrible and stiff.
At 11:00 I took an early lunch 2 eggs 1 piece of spelt bread and some cashew macademia butter.
at 1:00 I started to feel some burning. At 1:30 I was in pain and a deep fog was setting in.
After work at 3:00 I came home and went to bed till 4:30.
I woke up with severe burning in my feet, stiff hands and neck, face hot and VERY DEPRESSED.
What gives. This disease is so funny. The treatment also sucks because you alway have a setback before you get better.
Uhh the frustration. THis is why my personal goals have gone out the window.
One day Im an optimist and can do normal things like listen to music, go for a walk and feel pleasure.
The next day its as if all hope is lost and the world really trully looks and feels like an evil black hole of negativity and PAIN>
I pray for us all to be saved!
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
lyme science mino has a property of reducing inflamation turning off the bodys attack on itself...lyme disease is an autoimmune disease...that is the truth...if I stop taking mino I will fell like the flu...when I start i herx like hell at 150mg a day...so we know that there is an immune connection along with the mino..... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
Heres an update.
It took 12 hours from my last dose of doxy (approx 30mg) to feel better.
I had red knees, right knee was painfull hot sore neck depression disassocation stiff joints burning in the feet (bad)
all this from 30mg of doxy!!!
WTF?
This feels similar to what I got on Cats Claw. The LLMD said that what I was experiencing from the cats claw was not a herx probablly reved up immune system.
OH YEA .... I felt this way to from host defense mushroom complex. I actually would fall asleep randomlly and had lots of depression and pain. When it cleared I felt better.
Reved up NK function? Out of control cytokines? Bacteriostatic? Bacteriocidal?
craZy??? hmm been down that route dont think so
Something with the immune system and I dont think its an allergy.
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
I don't want to correct anyone, but Polar Blast said thats Lyme Disease is an autoimmune disease. Your own body is not attacking itself, its attacking the lyme bacteria, correct? and if it were an autoimmune wouldn't we all be on steroids to depresss the immune system? maybe i'm wrong?
Posts: 10 | From East Coast | Registered: Jun 2006
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
The lyme bacteria exists within your own cells
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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posted
No no no. Everyone is looking at half the picture. Lyme is an autoimmune disease, BUT, not only an autoimmune disease, AND, no one knows excactly how it is an autoimmune disease.
Lyme is caused by active infection, autoimmunity does not exist on its own accord. Somehow, Lyme is able to cause the body to have inflamation beyond what viable spirochetes one would find upon biopsy.
So, that begs the question WHY? It could be that the increased inflamation is directed against both the spirochetal form, as well as the cyst form. Since we have not been looking for cysts, we have simply assumed that the inflamatory reponse was too great for the number of spirochetes we find.
So, if this were true, it could mean that the autoimmune component is very small, but for right now, most agree there is some autoimmune component. Though the largest part is from the Bacteria themselves. Kill the bacteria, remove the autoimmunity.
Another theory is that there is in fact no autoimmunity, and that the extra imflamation is caused by a nuerotoxin produced by B.B., or its cyst, or a combination of both.
However, the B.B. flagellion antibodies produced by our bodies have been found to attack mylin as well as the flaggelin of the spirochete.
This may be the reason Lyme can mimic MS. However, there are no other known mimics are far as I'm aware other than a proposed molecular mimicry from Allan Steere to explain persistant arthritis. He found that certain cells in the body had a similar molecular shape to the Osp A gene of B.B.
However, this has yet to be proven in any experiement that antibodies directed against B.B. will attack this cell type with a similar shape.
Steere has alawys believed in autoimmune chronic Lyme arthritis. However, when he tried to proove this theory by injecting heat killed B.B. into the knee joints of rats, no one developed arthritis of the knee.
It seems that viable spirochetes, or cysts are required for this "autoimmunity" and that it can not exist in the absense of live spirochetes.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Another misconception. B.B. are inside our cells this is correct. But his is half the story. They also live outside the cells.
That is not conjecture, that is fact. No one knows how many are inside, outside at a given time, but one can rest assured that both are present at any given time.
This is why drugs like Rocephin work very well for a lot of people with Lyme Disease. It kills bacteria that live outiside cells.
This is also the reason many LLMD's recommend adding a drug like Zithromax to Rocephin. The reason is that Zithromax kills B.B. inside of cells.
This is a very important point to make, as many antibiotics are very effective for intracellular organisms tend not to be that good for those outside the cell.
My advice is to stick with the specialist. Use a drug like Rocephin for B.B. outside the cell, because its specialized to hit those B.B.
Use a drug like Zithromax, or any one of the others that target within cells, thats their specialty.
Hope this helps!
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
lyme science lyme disease becomes autoimmune when the infection is allowed to grow out of control...it does not start out as autoimmune...at some point the body will fight the spirochete but it is missdirected and attacks the very cells it was supposed to protect...the immune system attacks at a very very slow rate...in months ...so the damage is very slow...thus making it hard to pinpoint an autoimmune reaction untill its to late... eric
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
I herx on 6 grams of vitamin C. 2 drops of cat claw.
Reading MP you learn abx, especially mino have strong immune modulating effects, effectively creating an environment for the body to do the fighting. Lowo doses are effective if your immune system if functioning well.
quai
-------------------- "In spite of the ever increasing cost of living, it remains quite popular" S. Shackel Posts: 87 | From walla walla wa | Registered: Dec 2005
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lymeHerx001
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6215
posted
All I know is that I have a very REAL effect from a very small amount of doxy.
Is this behaving homeopathically?
Posts: 2905 | From New England | Registered: Sep 2004
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-------------------- Charter member of the ~ Delux Toasting Club ~ Our Moto: "Take No Prisoners" Posts: 95 | From San Diego | Registered: Nov 2005
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ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
Hi JellyBelly,
There seems to be a lot of conversation on this thread which probably means that whatever I say that disagrees with some (or one) will net me a verbal whippin'. Well, I'm going to post anyway...
All tetracyclines work by preventing the bacterium from synthesizing proteins and therefore, the bacterium dies; plain and simple. Other abx work by inhibiting cell wall synthesis and repair and therefore, the bacterium dies. Both methods directly kill bacteria regardless of immune system involvement. Whether your immune system can keep pace with clean up of dead bacteria is another subject.
In the summer of 2002, while on a 2 month waiting list to see the Lyme doc and get dx / tested, I began research on various tx for Bb and far and away Mino seemed to be the choice for someone with very significant neuro sx, like me, as I had no doubt that I was infected. After the initial appt. and testing and doc calling me to tell me the test was positive, I proceeded with the second appt.; I had made up my mind what abx tx I wanted... The first words out of the dr.'s mouth began to allude to IV Rocephin (as I knew it would), such as, "Do you still have your gallbladder..." "Yes", I said, "And I intend on keeping it." As the conversation proceeded, I told him that I wasn't interested in IV yet, but wanted Minocin - 400mg., minimum. Surprisingly, he agreed and wrote the rx for 400. A few months later, I asked to up it to 600mg and he did it. (BTW-600mg. is illegal now. 400mg is the limit by the Mfr.) All the info and experience that I read and heard said that lower doses helped markedly, but, higher doses, (if you could take it) was needed for real load reduction.
Long story short - Oh man, did it ever work wonders! Immediate and continued progress. Yes, I was dizzy w/200mg but virtually no added dizziness at 400mg. Don't know why. Followed this protocol for 9 months before applying Flagyl. Won't go much longer, but way too much Flagyl. Knew I wasn't dead because it hurt too bad. There was so much cyst buildup that I was in and out of seizures for 6 weeks, but, it surely did reduce the load. It took my body about 1.5 years to clear out all the debris from the Flagyl application / die-off. If I knew then what I know now...
How am I after all that? I'm wonderful, that's how I am! All sx's reduced by about 80%. I still take a 250mg. Zithromax once per day on "maintenance" tx. (Mino didn't quite get all the arthritic sx; Zith took it the rest of the way.) I've only met one other person who followed the "400 protocol" and she's almost completely well too; neither of us will likely be "cured", but life is good.
Moral of story - If you can get your doc to rx 400mg, go for it! But you be real careful with the Flagyl; I'm not kidding. Not even 250mg. would I let pass my lips. I know it's darned near impossible to get 400mg. rx out of any doc these days, but some will rx 300mg. If you can take it, then, take it! I also know that people are going to squawk about me saying all this; "giving medical advice", but if I had it to do all over again, I'd take it and run with it. Bigtime!
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
Yeah, there is significant dissagreement on this thread. As far as your contention regarding bacteriostatic vs bacterialcidal drugs, the thing you said about both of them directly killing is simply false. I'm not trying to argue, or give you a tounge lashing, I'm just trying to disseminate accurate information. The truth is that the bacteriostaic vs bacteriocidal issue is more complex than you illustrated. Some inhibitors of protein synthisis such as Azithromyacin can be bacteriocidal (kill bacteria) wheras the Tetracycline, such as Minocycline as most always bacteriostatic (prevent bacteria from growing but do NOT kill)
I encourage everyone to read this webpage, apparently the professor of this class has his presenations online. Pretty Cool. We can take his course in microbiology at the Unverisity of California School of Medicine and don't have to pay a dime. Kick@#$!! Real, Legit medical education for free. Totally Awesome!
posted
The doses you took, ie:400 mg a day. I did that with great results, but I could only stay on that so long as it is a lot of Minocycline to take.
I also did the 600mg route. No one prescribed it, and I know exactly why, one just can't consume that much Mino without it eventually biting you in the you know where.
Those are the kinda doses I was referring to when I said that at some point, Mino can be a bad thing, IE: 600mg.
However, that said, I think 400mg is perfectly reasonable. I actually include this doseage every four weeks or so for about 3 days in a row.
Its usefull for me to use it to prevent bacterial resistance to my main drugs such as Rocephin, and other IV meds.
A point of reference, at those kinda doses, ie:400mg of Minocycline, or 600mg Minocycline, I'm inclinded to believe that they probally do directly kill as opposed to inhibiting growth.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Boy oh boy Ping. If 10 mgs makes me feel like crap how in the world could I EVEER handle 400 mgs. I am sure it would kill me now.
By the way even though I herx nasty like, when not on ABX I am at about 85% remission and can hold it for at the least 15 months, that is the longest I have gone. Only go back because I think I should give myself a booster.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
lyme science I find the brand dynacin better then minocin...I also find that at 150 and up is the minumum...400mgs is too much for anyone with severe infection..it is only good for short spurts of two weeks or less....IT DOES DIRECTLY KILL... ERIC
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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Jellybelly
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7142
posted
Lymescience, anything interesting yet?
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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