posted
SR..The link...this page...does not work. I thought I made it clear that I have a high RA factor. Not eb virus. Igenex states both can cross react. The info everyone gave on EB was great. I too do not to be rude but Please tell me agin what bands cross react for RA ?? Cannot find it anywhere.Actually any other links would also be great ref same ( cross reactivity involving RA factor and lyme testing ) The info given from all of you has been much appreciated and maybe my Lyme brain is not what it should be
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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Also known as: RF Related tests: ANA, Autoantibodies
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The Test
How is it used? When is it ordered? What does the test result mean? Is there anything else I should know?
How is it used? The test for rheumatoid factor (RF) is used to help diagnose rheumatoid arthritis (RA). The test may also be used to help diagnose an arthritis-related condition called Sj�gren's syndrome. About 80% to 90% of patients with this syndrome have high amounts of RF in their blood.
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When is it ordered? The test for RF is ordered when you have signs of RA. Symptoms may include stiffness in your joints for a long time in the morning, swelling, nodules under your skin, and evidence on X-rays of swollen joint capsules and loss of cartilage and bone if the disease has progressed.
If you still have symptoms of RA but your first RF test is negative, the test may need to be repeated. The levels vary with the degree of symptoms and inflammation and may be negative in periods of remission or inactive disease.
The RF test also may be ordered to help diagnose Sj�gren's syndrome. Symptoms include extremely dry mouth and eyes, dry skin, and joint and muscle pain. Many connective tissue disorders are autoimmune diseases, and RA and other diseases, such as Raynaud's syndrome, scleroderma, autoimmune thyroid disorders, and systemic lupus erythematosis, are common among people with Sj�gren's syndrome.
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What does the test result mean? The presence of RF indicates that you may have rheumatoid arthritis (RA). Positive RF test results are found in the majority of cases of rheumatoid arthritis. In addition, more than 50% of patients with high levels of RF in their blood have Sj�gren's syndrome. Many patients with RA also have Sj�gren's syndrome. (Women more often have both of these diseases. About two to three times as many women as men have RA, and women have 90% of the cases of Sj�gren's syndrome.)
If you have a positive RF test result but do not have RA or Sj�gren's syndrome, there may be another reason, such as endocarditis; systemic lupus erythematosus (lupus); tuberculosis; syphilis; sarcoidosis; cancer; viral infection; or disease of the liver, lung, or kidney. You may also test positive if you have received skin or kidney grafts from a person who does not have your identical genetic profile.
A negative RF test result means that you do not have RA, or it is too early in your disease progression to detect RF, or possibly you are in a remission phase. If your symptoms appear to be those of RA or Sj�gren's syndrome, your doctor may order the RF test again as your condition progresses.
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Is there anything else I should know? The RF test has a high false positive rate, and the result must be used along with the patient's symptoms and history to make a diagnosis of RA, Sj�gren's syndrome, or another condition.
Interfering factors for the RF test generally include having many vaccinations or lipemia (a large amount of fats in the blood) or specimen handling. Methyldopa, a blood pressure drug, can increase the amount of RF detected by the test.
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Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Been tested many times over the past 16 years and always have a positive RA factor along with the dreaded RA. My last test ( April ) was 414..Over 60 positive
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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This is a study done in 1989, but be carefull while you read, some of it can be tricky.
Well, it seems in this study which had a few false positive RA factor people, the blotting was non specific for 25, 41, and 66. I'll find some more for you to ponder.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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and here is one more about this topic, but it makes me have SERIOUS DOUBTS ABOUT THE VALIDITY REGARDING RA FALSE POSITIVITY.
They tested for false positives in the highly unendemic Pennslyvania as the control group, so I post this study (which is really the only in depth study and probally the one which has been relied upon) with A LOT OF CARE IN SAYING THAT ONE SHOULD READ THE WORDS RATHER THAN THE CONCLUSIONS.
Pennslyvania is HIGHLY endemic for Lyme, so the conclusions regarding a control group are meaningless.
To my knowledge, this study has never been reproduced.
J Rheumatol. 1994 Jan;21(1):126-31. Links Seroreactivity to Borrelia burgdorferi antigens in the absence of Lyme disease.
* Cooke WD, * Bartenhagen NH.
State University of New York, Upstate Medical Center, Syracuse.
OBJECTIVE. To determine the background levels and specificity of antibody to Borrelia burgdorferi by Western blot (immunoblot) in an area nonendemic for Lyme disease, and to correlate antibody specificity with clinical or serologic findings. METHODS. In a prospective survey by consecutive sampling, serum was obtained from patients referred to a tertiary care referral center in a rural area of Pennsylvania not endemic for Lyme disease. A total of 207 consecutive referrals to a rheumatology clinic over a 3-month period from September, 1991 were divided into 3 groups. Those referred because of a positive Lyme serology (Group 1) were compared with patients having positive antinuclear antibodies or rheumatoid factor (Group 2) and with controls having no rheumatic complaints (Group 3). RESULTS. Antibody to at least one protein of B. burgdorferi was seen in over 40% of patients. Reactivities to the heat shock proteins and the 41 kDa flagellar antigen accounted for the majority of positive bands. There were no differences observed between the 3 groups, and no significant correlation between Western blot and ELISA findings in the absence of Lyme disease. CONCLUSION. We conclude that significant levels of antibody to B. burgdorferi may be seen on Western blotting in patients who have not been exposed to this organism by clinical or epidemiologic criteria. The antibodies detected may be natural antibodies, or may result from exposure to homologous antigenic epitopes on other organisms. The definition of a positive Western blot in the diagnosis of Lyme disease should incorporate the background levels of reactivity seen in nonexposed populations. Criteria for positivity should focus on the presence of antibody to the more specific proteins of B. burgdorferi.
PMID: 8151567 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Ok, So I'm putting on the humility hat today. I've learned something new.
Turns out there is more info about RF and Lyme, and STRANGLY, your RF titer and positive IgM Western blot more likely confirms your diagnosis of Lyme as opposed to being a false positive. Stange this disease is.....
posted
Lymescience...I will read it all later and want to THANK YOU again.....This thread is most interesting and very educational
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Well, all I have to say at this point, lymescience, is that I sure hope you get enough treatment so you can go into medicine. We need people like you. Looking forward to Dr. Lymescience some time in the future.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
Thanks Lou, I hope I get enough treatment as well so I can do something to help the Lyme community because there are so many of you out there (myself included) who are in desperate need of answers.
I found out that I'll be able to continue my medicine that does work for me, but I am considering something else as well.
Since I believe so strongly (because of the law of causality and the science and people I've seen) that at least in some people, though maybe not all, chronic lyme is simply a chronic infection (albiet INCREDIBLY complicated), and I can relyably predict my response to medicine- including several clearly visibly measureable things, I was wondering whether it would matter to challenge the DUCKS at Duke scientifically.
If they give me the regamine of meds I've proved through trial and error, and that I can predict, for free, they can give me any test they want to try to disprove what's going on in my body.
The key is that I understand so much of the science with what is going on that its difficult for the doctors to pull one over on me, and since I can so relyably predict things that one can't cause through the power of the mind (maybe x can cause y, but x can't cause a through e and y based upon the same theory and all be placebo- that's impossible)
So either they would have to prove that I've discovered the cure for myself at least for autoimmune post Lyme or For at least some, chronic lyme means a chronic infection.
The only stipulation to this challenge would be that I would have to have some LLMD's oversee things as well to keep the bias in check. What do you think lou?
I'm certain these things are happening, I've repeated the experiement at least 8 times and the results are the same or very similar. Would they even accept such a challenge with the stipulation that it must be published in a major medical journal?
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Hey hey Sewer Rat I could answer your ? but it would take me about 4 hrs to search and compile what I said and I am not up to right now. Sorry I didnt come by my opinion lightly it took me years to come to that answer its just not off the top of my head.
Search for yourself eventialy youll see why I believe that taking abx especially after a long time being infected does indeed free antigens and kills spirochetes thus freeing them to be found as antigens and antibodies, respectively.Either by pcr or wb.
Its called priming the test. This should be done during the 3 day urine test and at least 5 days prior to western blot.
Both times at very high doses of abx and it should be a abx that is known too kill spirochetes or causes a herx.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I dunno, lymescience. It would depend on whether there were any open minds, people who were not afraid to get out of the medical lock step.
When I learned that Yale had gotten more than $300 million from NIH in 2004, it became obvious that whatever the govt health agencies want to be said about any particular disease is what is going to be said, regardless of the evidence or anything else. There is just too much money riding on this, and not even a tenured professor with independent sources of research funding is going to go against the best financial interests of his/her institution. This, to me, accounts for the remarkable unanimity among the big name medical universities, clinics on the questions of lyme and other tickborne diseases.
That huge amount of AIDS funding (and more recently the bioterrorism funds) is giving NAIAD the power of a 1000 pound gorilla, and they are using it to enforce their views.
So, the short answer is that there might come a time when your offer would be timely, but now might not be it. Just my opinion, you understand.
In fact, the NIH has a long-running intramural study where they already have gotten evidence that people who were treated correctly showed improvement on treatment and declined when not treated. This was seen in objective testing results, like MRI scans. But they have not published this information. Rather they have only published info that supports the Steerite view of lyme. So, this says to me that they are willing to lie their heads off and/or omit telling the truth as long as necessary to stay in agreement with the official view. All we can do, I think, is to try to get this changed at the top. The bottom is too afraid to say what they think. The "bottom" being the researchers and doctors on the frontlines of disease.
[ 26. July 2006, 06:24 PM: Message edited by: lou ]
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by lou: I dunno, lymescience. It would depend on whether there were any open minds, people who were not afraid to get out of the medical lock step.
When I learned that Yale had gotten more than $300 million from NIH in 2004, it became obvious that whatever the govt health agencies want to be said about any particular disease is what is going to be said, regardless of the evidence or anything else. There is just too much money riding on this, and not even a tenured professor with independent sources of research funding is going to go against the best financial interests of his/her institution. This, to me, accounts for the remarkable unanimity among the big name medical universities, clinics on the questions of lyme and other tickborne diseases.
That huge amount of AIDS funding is giving NAIAD the power of a 1000 pound gorilla, and they are using it to enforce their views.
So, the short answer is that there might come a time when your offer would be timely, but now might not be it. Just my opinion, you understand.
In fact, the NIH has a long-running intramural study where they already have gotten evidence that people who were treated correctly showed improvement on treatment and declined when not treated. This was seen in objective testing results, like MRI scans. But they have not published this information. Rather they have only published info that supports the Steerite view of lyme. So, this says to me that they are willing to lie their heads off and/or omit telling the truth as long as necessary to stay in agreement with the official view. All we can do, I think, is to try to get this changed at the top. The bottom is too afraid to say what they think. The "bottom" being the researchers and doctors on the frontlines of disease.
Lou all I can say about what you said is Your Right!!!Totally agree!!! You put that better than anyone I ever heard!!
Pat Pat Pat On the Back
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Lou,
"In fact, the NIH has a long-running intramural study where they already have gotten evidence that people who were treated correctly showed improvement on treatment and declined when not treated. This was seen in objective testing results, like MRI scans. But they have not published this information. "
How would I access/where would I find this information? Even a general search term would be helpful, if you do not have quick access to links. pm is ok, too.
Thank you, N.
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Wow thats a lot of good information. My take is since I have a very high RF it may increase to some degree the possibility of interference with a Lyme essay, but only a slight chance? Perhaps all these conditions such as CFS,Fibro, RA, Lyme, Alzheimers maybe even ALS are from a bacterial infection.Time will hopefully tell. I did read on another board that a person questioned Igenex about the interference and was told 3% of the time,so I guess 97% correct which is pretty good odds don't ya think. Thanks to all..........Geoff
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Sorry one more questioni you don't mind....Is there a way to remove RF in the blood before a Lyme Western Blot
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Well Geoff or Dr Lymescience I figure if anybody can answer a question like that you could, so I took the chance to see if you might know...
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
Sure man, for the ego stroke, and simply because your name rocks, I'll see, but this is the last oddball question I'm answering regarding RF factor and Lyme unless it has some importance to the rest of us, ie: theoretical implications for understanding how Lyme causes both autoimmunity and infection.
So, I'll check to see if the RF factor can be filtered out, give me some time, imo, that's gonna be very technical, and I doubt I find info on pubmed so my best bet would be to search the chemistry comapanies ( a tedious task, but my guess is that they can be filtered out, I don't see any reason why not)
In theory if we know how to measure RF then we know what it is in the blood, the next step would be to simply filter it out of the blood based on some kinda mechanism related to the properties of light absorbtion specific to RF or to have some kinda of mechanism which is tropfic for RF making it separate from the blood to some kinda collection grid similar to a magnet attracting iron.
I'll see what I can find Geoff.
Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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Sewer Rat
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by treepatrol: Search for yourself eventialy youll see why I believe that taking abx especially after a long time being infected does indeed free antigens and kills spirochetes thus freeing them to be found as antigens and antibodies, respectively.Either by pcr or wb.
Its called priming the test. This should be done during the 3 day urine test and at least 5 days prior to western blot.
Both times at very high doses of abx and it should be a abx that is known too kill spirochetes or causes a herx.
Thanks Treepatrol,
I will try to find information about this, because it's interesting and important information.
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posted
Ok, did a little search, and my first gut feeling is that though it should be possible theoretically, I don't think this kinda thing can be done other than at research labs for the purpose of research.
But, I have found something that may help anyways. You have a positive IgM. With a little logic, this quote may help you as I would think that RF factor shouldn't influence the IgM, only the IgG.
"The second rheumatologic test of importance is the Rheumatoid Factor, or RF. Like the ANA, rheumatoid factor is actually an autoantibody that binds to immunoglobulin G (IgG), forming a large immune complex. This immune complex is implicated in numerous inflammatory processes. Despite the name, the RF is not 100% specific for rheumatoid arthritis (RA), although a positive result is typically present in about 80% of patients who have RA."
Being that you are measuring IgM and RF binds to IgG, perhaps it doesn't matter that in your case.
Or, maybe the lab can try to filter out IgG if you're still conserned about your diagnosis.
Here is the link, which I may post in a separate thread. It doesn't specifically deal with Lyme, but it gives a great tutorial on Hematology (the blood sciences)
posted
From one Geoff to another ( ever get tired of having to spell your name!! ..lol ) thanks again.I know you rock also and I really thank you since this Geoff is having a hard time right noe man. Lemme know if you come across anything else. Maybe you can do a paper on this when you become a Lyme DR. !!!!
Posts: 408 | From NY | Registered: Jan 2006
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by Sewer Rat:
quote:Originally posted by treepatrol: Search for yourself eventialy youll see why I believe that taking abx especially after a long time being infected does indeed free antigens and kills spirochetes thus freeing them to be found as antigens and antibodies, respectively.Either by pcr or wb.
Its called priming the test. This should be done during the 3 day urine test and at least 5 days prior to western blot.
Both times at very high doses of abx and it should be a abx that is known too kill spirochetes or causes a herx.
Thanks Treepatrol,
I will try to find information about this, because it's interesting and important information.
yep
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Do I ever get tired of having to spell my name?
Oh yeah, ever single time I meet someone new, they always think of Jeff, and even when I say, no no, its Jeff with a G, not a J, they think Geff??
So, yeah, that's a constant reminder that we have a unique name.
Geoff, I'm sorry that you're going through a hard time, I've been there man, believe me. You'll get through this, but not before it completely changes your life, either in such a way that you come out healthy appreciating life, or you come out of it miserable and mad because you had to be sick.
You'll be a happier fellow with the life is good approach. If you need any help at all, unless it has to do whether you have RF or Lyme. Better yet, if you're still unconvinced, PM me and we can discuss the signs and symptoms you have and see which disease fits the picture better.
Good luck Geoff, you're in for the battle of your life, but the good news is that you can win if you hold on long enough and fight this disease with some kind of battle plan Posts: 559 | From Cary, NC | Registered: May 2006
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