posted
For better or worse, we live in the Age of Spin. For truly complex issues like healthcare, it becomes almost impossible to fathom the truth. I know that Medicine has saved my life twice, almost killed me once, and left me sick till the day I die. I don't quite know how to evaluate it. I do know that in life threatening emergencies, they treat you first and ask questions about insurance later. But with many other things, unless you have super insurace or enough money, you probably won't get the work-up you need to diagnose and treat your problems.
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posted
The problem with insurance companies is that they are the middleman between the patient and the doctor and they are doing that at a profit.
More money you pay for insurance is going to the insurance and not to your healthcare. Some fat cat sitting in a chair is making a huge salary.
If you cut out the middleman, the private insurance company, you more than pay for all the healthcare costs of all medical services in the United States. This is a fact. They are making that much money off of you. We don't need the middleman.
Our healthcare system is 27th in the world. Not number one. We can do better.
Posts: 293 | From healdsburg, ca , sonoma | Registered: Feb 2005
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
Below is 2 part video that fits in with this Topic Reel Good --
The video explains how the Pharmaceutical Industry has arraigned to sell 100s of Tons of medicine to You for the Regular Price --
I guess its like going to the 7-11 and buying 40 thousand tons of candy bars at a $1.50 each
You can get them at the grocery store for 5 for $1 --
But Hey Its Only Candy and Your Life is not depending on the Daily dose of Candy ? ---
posted
When I go to the doctor, I don't pay a dime. Would I tell someone that I get free medical care? No. So why in the world does Michael say it's free, even though it 'obviously" comes from taxes. It's a little misleading to keep using the word "free" even if he throws in the word "taxes."
Granted we pay much more in premiums than France probably pays in taxes for their Health Care but it's still not even remotely free in comparison to ours.
And hey, I'd be the 1st one to say that we need to fix our health care system. I'm just not a fan of Moore and his propaganda.
Don't take my disdain for Michael as a sign that I completely support our current system.
I'll definitely go see his movie. I've seen his other movies, so it's not like I'm closed minded. I just don't like any deception...no matter how minor it is.
-------------------- The best index to a person's character is how he treats people who can't do him any good, and how he treats people who can't fight back. -Abigail van Buren (Pauline Esther Friedman) (1918-2002) Posts: 409 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I finally saw the movie and thought it was wonderful! I don't think Michael gave the impression that universal health care is free at all. In many of the interviews, taxes are mentioned. The term "free" is used when people are getting the service - and that is completly accurate! Nobody asks them whether they paid taxes before they are treated. As a matter of fact, there was an American interviewed who received treatment in France - free!
I think the message that came from many of the interviews was the concept of "we" as opposed to "me", that predominates in the countries he showcases. They realize that their taxes are paying for non-contributors, but they accept that. I would much rather pay more in taxes and have it help those less fortunate than pay outlandish prices for prescriptions, insurance ( only to be denied coverage!). We are making some greedy people ridiculously rich! And one thing that struck both my husband and me was the obvious savings, albeit small, of cutting out paperwork and middlemen!
I also found it ironic that the British guy said that democracy was the launching pad for their universal health care system!
I hope that we use this movie as a launching pad to challenge our government leaders at local, state and national levels to develop or support plans to move us toward health care for everyone. I intend to let my delegates and legislators know that my next vote will be contingent upon this!
I don't know how anyone could watch the piece about that poor woman being dropped off at the curb by a cab, still in her hospital gown, to leave her wandering around confused. For a hospital to do this goes beyond negligence; it is inhumane and criminal! This is America?
By the way, I saw a piece on Fox about the discussion between Moore and Gupta. They said they checked Moore's facts and found them to be correct; some of Gupta's were wrong! Try to get past your personal feelings for him and see this movie with an open mind.
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
lymeout - thank you!! i've given up on the thread in 'off topic;' your post here made me smile and breathe a sigh of much-needed relief.
there were so many times in the movie that i started crying - the hospital dropping off that woman on skid row in nothing but a hospital gown like she was so much garbage, just because she couldn't pay her bill.. yeah, that brought tears.
and the woman whose baby girl DIED of a simple bacterial infection, because the damn hospital she was rushed to by ambulance refused to treat her. why? because it was out of the mother's insurance network. the mother begged the doctors not to listen to kaiser (her insurance company), and to treat regardless - no dice. by the time the little girl was transferred to an in-network hospital several hours later, she had gone into cardiac arrest, and she died soon after. i can't even tell you how hard i cried over this. my heart is still broken and that mother's face will never leave my memory.
i agree with lymeout - PLEASE put aside your thoughts about michael moore and see this movie with an open mind. if you have a heart at all the film will affect you PROFOUNDLY.
daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255
posted
I was wondering...did Moore mention one of the most important facts....that our goverment has become the evil corporations? It seems to me that this is one of the main points but if it was addressed then the entire premise for his movie......total government/corporate contol of personal health....wouldn't make much sense. So, I was wondering if he addressed this?
I think I am going to try and do more research on this. We know the government is intertwined with the vaccine companies and that they are trying to push unwanted vaccines on children and now adults. I must find out the names of past drug company CEOs that know have jobs in the Bush Administration. I think this is what we need to begin looking at.
Moore uses alot of emotionalism which is a tactic used to sway people in a specific direction. I don't onject to helping others but I think it should be done in more of an individual or town manner. Then one can keep better track and have more control concerning what is going on. Also, if our system leans more towards prevention, we won't need so much expensive healthcare. SICKO and others for socialized medicine are presenting this system as the only alternative to what we have.
In my opinion they have intentionally negatively enhanced the bad traits of the current system in order to get us to beg for complete control by the government. This isn't just with healthcare. They are using the environment, terrorism, melding religions together...etc to eventually get us to accept World Government. We already have the European Union and they are working on the union of Canada, Mexico and the U.S. This type of manipulation and propaganda is called Social Engineering
Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote: I haven't seen the movie yet, so I can't really give an opinion.
The only thing I can say is to be careful with the information given.
Moore is kind of a manipulator of information. I don't trust the guy to tell you the truth, but I am open to watching the movie.
Exactly, some of the information is very correct. Other info is not. Moore goes on to say how great Canada Health Program is and Americans are marrying Canadians just to get the health insurance. That is crap Canadas Health system has as many problems as ours or more.
Posts: 649 | From United States | Registered: Dec 2003
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
just because universal healthcare is paid for by the taxpayers, doesn't mean the government would exercise any more control over our healthcare than they do right now.
posted
Yes, the government is most involved in the profiteering of our healthcare system in many ways. But the most abhorrent to me is the money going from special interest groups to fund candidates. That drives everything that happens legislatively. Look at Hillary Clinton - now the second largest recipient of contributions from health related groups!
I spoke to some Canadians recently who supported the things he said in the movie. They have a chronically ill daughter and are very happy with the care she receives - all free. But Moore has specifically said that he doesn't think we should model solely after one country's system. He suggests studying each and taking what we think will work for our specific situation. I would go a step further and say we have always been known as a creative, problem-solving country. If we took the politics out of it, we could come up with a system unique to our needs and conditions.
Even though his movie paints a rosy picture of the French, Canadian and British systems, he has said in interviews that they have their flaws. But I don't think any of us can deny that we are a superpower country, and that our hospitals are turning sick people away, allowing them to die. This is unacceptable.
What was stated in the movie that I want to take issue with is the observation that we are intimidated by our government, that we are afraid to speak up, make waves! Say it ain't so! Have we started to lose our feistiness? Are we getting too complacent? Are we the new Roman Empire, content to eat our grapes and let the servants fan away the flies? Not happenin' in my house, but what about the multiple, multi-million dollar homes of those pharmaceutical and insurance ceo's!
Dialogue, people! Let's talk, and share facts and educate each other! Let's look for a candidate who isn't accepting contributions from these sleazes, grill him/her on healtha and environment views. And yes, hit all levels - local, state, federal!
Can you tell I didn't sleep last night? I will now dismount my sopabox and slink back into the real world of my dirty house and the noble task of cleaning it. Where are those servants when you need them!!
Posts: 422 | From Herndon, Virginia | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I'm not a big fan or Michael Moore but if he gets the word out about Lyme then more kudos to him. I wrote him a while back when he was looking for insurance cases whereby care wasn't paid for. I sent them info on Lyme, how IV treatments are barely paid for and what us lymies go through to even try and get help.
I never heard anything from his crew or even a thank you. I encourage you all to write him. Perhaps in numbers we can all get him to listen. Wouldn't it be great if he made a movie on it? As long as it was factual of course....
Posts: 238 | From Bethlehem, PA | Registered: Oct 2004
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charlie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 25
posted
Happened to remember this post and just thought I'd toss it in... ------------------------------------------------------ dafje Frequent Contributor Member # 7121
posted April 01, 2005 01:27 PM I don't understand why you call our system "free". It costs money, it's not free. And we have a million rules about what all the different insurances cover, so it's not free in that aspect either. And we still pay for the things that aren't covered. The only thing that's different is that people are forced to have at least some form of insurance. If they don't get an insurance and they are brought into hospital with their bones sticking through their skin they get treated and then have to pay for all the time they weren't insured plus a fine. The only thing that really is free here would be things like getting an abortion, for obvious reasons. Posts: 185 | From: the Netherlands | Registered: Mar 2005 | IP: Logged ------------------------------------------------------
....why don't you guys give up on this socialism crap? Let bureaucracy run your health care? bureaucracy is nothing but deputized kudzu.
NEW ideas please...it doesn't matter if it's 'fair' if it doesn't work in the first place. and trying to trump logic with emotion won't fly.
Charlie
Posts: 2804 | From Texas | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
I personally think we should have a form of Universal Healthcare.
But I don't think it will help us Lymies much, except for symptom treatment.
What we need is more research, more understanding of Lyme and the coinfections.
So I've lived in France. Their healthcare is good. But their society is troubled in different ways than ours.
I wish that as a society, and a very wealth country, we spent more money on health and education.
Of course Moore is biased. He says so himself. At least his agenda is transparent.
I wish he would make a movie on Lyme.
-------------------- Jeff Posts: 533 | From CA | Registered: Mar 2006
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LisaS
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 10581
posted
Today when I was walking out of the theatre after seeing Sicko, there was this man talking on a cell phone. I heard him say to whom he was talking "Man, over here in America, all they care about is money."
I tapped him on his shoulder and said, its not all Americans, it's the greedy politicians and Doctors...
I asked him where he was from, and he said Nigeria. He's a student and was sent over here to study America. I Told him a little about the controversy with Lyme and how hard it is for us to get treated at all, even if you have money.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Don't know what happened to my post yesterday.....
Anyway, I got the following via e-mail the other day. I have dial-up so have not checked it out to see if the link works......
``You can watch Michael Moore's documentary film "Sicko" on the web, in its entirety at
...... [Edit note: Well, the link I originally posted was wrong. I'm in the process of trying to get a corrected link, if there is one. Sorry about that to those who tried to click on it.]
The good thing about the movie is that it raises a lot of valuable questions about our failed medical system, the bad thing about it is that it proposes Universal Health Coverage for a failed system, without recognizing that it IS a failed system! ``
I'm willing to give MM a chance with Sicko, even though he was totally out to lunch on his previous film.
Too often, MM is just a far-left pundit for the socialistic mainstream media, spinning the facts to fit his agenda; certainly nothing new there. I get so tired of being manipulated - tired of `hearing' on the Denver news about a deadly shooting with a .22 caliber revolver, and yet `seeing' a picture of a .223 `assault weapon' on the screen. Purposeful disinformation and manipulation. Conditioning Americans to fear guns and ALL the people who own them. And people are taking the bait.
I totally agree with Soleilpie and others here.
Guns cause crime ...... just like spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
`The people' should be calling for actual criminal control, not gun control. I assure you, my guns will never harm any law-abiding person..... unless some criminal comes along and steals them.....
Just like this health care mess, we need to put our focus on the REAL problems or a national health care system will be worse than what we have now.
IMHO, all health care-related enterprises should fall under the category of `essential services' - much like most utility companies - and as such, there should be caps on profits and management salaries, etc.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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MagicAcorn
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8786
posted
Tracy said:
Guns cause crime ...... just like spoons made Rosie O'Donnell fat.
-------------------- Posts: 1279 | From In hiding | Registered: Feb 2006
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Thanks Carol (and others who PMed me) for pointing out the erroneous link.
I edited my above post, and if there is a correct link, I will post it here when I get it.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
I agree with Lymout. What good is a kid's education if he can't get a tooth fixed? And why stop at kids?
It seems government tries to 'prove' it cares about us by focusing on the kids and elderly in this society, ignoring a huge chunk of people in between who don't fall into either category.
ALL life is important. People of ALL ages deserve health. I don't care if you are a self-induced alcoholic living on a street corner. Somehow I think even those poor souls are there because they saw that as their only option, so I don't really blame them, but rather society.
We are seriously underestimating our power here. If there's a problem with government, it's because we've accepted that things are the way they are because they were the way the were and always will be.
I don't buy it. We need a revolution here of some kind.
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
Here is a video that has the intro from the Bill O Really show on SickO
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
OH NO.. it's TC!
The totally ignorant politcal outcast... and she has an opinion! Who let HER out of the cage?
YIKES!
If you are sick and WANT to go to a doctor.. go. It's now free. Sick visits, mental health services, alcohol and drug rehab, wellness visits, annual exams, child care, dentist visits, eye doctors, emergency room visits, etc.
No need for pre-approvals, referrals or having to see "in plan" doctors. Your choice of services. No paperwork. No denials.
ALL of our veterans will get quality care at the same fine places that the most wealthy would have access to now.... for free also.
The disabled and poor will have the same access as everyone else.
If medicine is required... no problem. No co-pays, no overpricing, no need for generic.. it's free... to EVERYONE.
And quality care will be provided to you in YOUR neighborhood... or you can go anywhere else to find help. Better doctors will make better money. The way it SHOULD be now.
Doctors will be voted into a community (if they want them there) and will be paid based on the 3 point system. All will get the same basic salary. When each patient leaves the office (1/2 to 1 hour visits per patient) they will rate the doctor.
1 point is a NO bonus. 2 points is a small bonus. 3 points is a bigger bonus. This is for 1/2 hour appointments. For 1 hour visits.. the patients will give points 2 times.
If that isn't enough money for them.. they can do what one of my doctors did because the community was very small. He painted houses in the day time and doctored at night.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````
So HOW can free health care be accomplished?
I KNEW you would ask....
Tomorrow morning when you wake up...
There will be no such thing as insurance.
Done. Gone. No more.
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So how will we pay for medical care you ask?
I know.. I know!!!
It will be a part of the new tax system. Ditch the old one completely.
Forget deductions.. forget loop holes.... forget tax shelters ... forget it all.
EVERYONE will pay the exact same percentage from their income... whatever income they have.
20 percent.
10 percent of the collected tax money will go to the local county government. There will be County Commissioners .. 5 men and 5 women.. who will be voted in each year on election day. They will put the money to the best use for their communities.. with community input.
You need a new road.. ok. You need a new hospital... ok. A new school, repairs in the park, new water plant... ok. Anything for the public good for a county will be funded through the county. Busses for kids, a baseball field? You decide. Prescriptions, doctors, MRI's, whatever.. will all be paid by the county to keep the community healthy.
Private industry can flourish for all other goods and services.
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5 percent of the 20 percent tax money will go to the state. They will pay for the "good of the people of the state" projects. No one will be homeless, no one without food. Seniors will have decent housing and appropriate care.. and all children will have quality child care before and after school if needed.
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5 percent will go to the Federal Government to take care of our military, supreme courts, natural disasters, etc.
Let THEM learn to live on a tight budget for a change!
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EVERONE will also pay 5 cents on a dollar for ALL purchases... food (hot or cold)... gas... alcohol... cars, houses, etc.
That money will be put in savings. 1/2 will be allowed to be used for additional projects which will be shared equally among all states IF needed. The other 1/2 stays put for a rainy day.
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
You are right, Tailz - we do need a revolution. This was NOT the system our forefathers envisioned.
Apparently, the link I posted earlier - where SICKO could be viewed - only worked for a short time. The video has now been removed from the site.
Oh, well. I'm sure it violated copyright laws anyway so best we just pay our money if we want to see the film.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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MagicAcorn
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8786
posted
Tracy said:
You are right, Tailz - we do need a revolution. This was NOT the system our forefathers envisioned.
Please educate me what health care system did our forefathers envision??????
-------------------- Posts: 1279 | From In hiding | Registered: Feb 2006
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groovy2
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6304
posted
Hi All
Below is a interview with Michael on PBS Now -- the interview is on the PBS NOW web site-- 10 minutes long
On the PBS page click on picture on right side of page -- Jay --
Scott and his work have done more for the treatment of Lyme Disease than Michael Moore will ever do for us.
Posts: 681 | From California | Registered: Oct 2005
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Soooooooooooooooo.................
I was giggling when I saw Lymedad's post in Medical about the better health guy ... shortly after I had glanced through that thread for the first time tonight.
I wondered if Lymedad knew BHG was in the middle of a controversy.
Looks like he did! HA!
Just so you know...
Purposely disobeying the rules is probably a bootable offense here. I don't want you out on your ear for it.. especially if you weren't warned or didn't know in advance.
From what was posted somewhere... Lou B is looking into the matter and should report back.
Maybe think two times about your new post and/or wait till after he responds to decide a course of action?
Your call. Just didn't want you here today... and hot tamale!
posted
Lou B Administrator Member # 64 posted 20-07-2007 01:42 AM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hi LymeNet Users,
I will read all the posts in this Topic thread, tomorrow when I'm NOT exhausted, and respond to any issues / concerns.
I do recall communicating with Scott in the past and reinforcing to him the LymeNet "no advertising" policy.
After I read / review, I'll insure the LymeNet board of directors (I'm a member) are informed.
RoadRunner
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 380
posted
poor people need to be insured in this country. health care should be better and for all people in U.S.A. no one should be without health care in U.S.A. rich or poor shouldn't make a difference everyone should have it. health care in this country needs to get better no matter how it gets done.
RR
-------------------- "Beep Beep" Posts: 2630 | From ct | Registered: Nov 2000
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
One of the enormous problems with the current set up is that people who are poor and who have have no insurance avoid seeking treatment until they are really incapacitated. Then they get on Medicaid for the expensive treatment of an advanced condition that might have been caught early and treat at much less cost.
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daystar1952
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3255
posted
I finally saw SICKO yesterday and it was basically what I thought it would be. MM exposed the horrendous problems with our healthcare BUT he portrayed socialized medicine to have no flaws whatsoever. Everything was so gleefully free. Government people would come in free to watch your children, cook your meals and even do your laundry. I found this hard to believe,
An accurate helpful documentary should show the good and bad sides to a system. MM's agenda is definitely Universal Healthcare where the government has complete control over your health.
I posted my concerns...on a doctors list about how MM portrayed France's healthcare system to be utopic. A doctor from France wrote back to the list saying....don't worry...it's not like that in France. She was disabled and there was no free help for her. No one came to her home. She says the laws are on the books in France but it is imposssible to implement them. There is just not enough money for all that.
I think there are more than 2 solutions to any problem. Our so called healthcare certainly does need a restructuring. Unfortunately I think it will need to collapse first before we can rebuild a healthy healthcare system. We need to be very careful...more so than in the past.
The government has many orwellian technologies at hand to take total control of us if we let them. So, I forget which one of you said it but inm a way we are all responsible for the predicament our country is in. We just let the government "take care" of us without suspicion.
We need to examine why we are all so sick and require this enormous amount of healthcare to begin with. I think that a refined diet, chemicals in the environment, vaccines and designer germs all play a role.
We probably also need to concentrate on the causes of disease while we fight for our freedoms. We don't want a socialized version of what we already have.....no prevention and just treating the symptoms
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