Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
"Applied Kinesiology (AK) is a controversial method of medical diagnosis.
It purportedly gives feedback on the functional status of the body. Proponents say that when properly applied, the outcome of an AK test, such as a muscle strength test, will provide for a low risk diagnostic method to help determine the efficacy of therapy for patients.
Applied Kinesiology is classified with alternative medicine, and is therefore different from academic kinesiology, which is the scientific study of human movement and its application. Applied kinesiology has been called a pseudoscience. [1]
AK draws together many similar therapies. It attempts an integrated, interdisciplinary approach to health care. George J. Goodheart, D.C., a chiropractor, originated AK in 1964. [2] Subsequently, its use spread to other chiropractors, naturopaths, and a few medical doctors. In 1976, the International College of Applied Kinesiology [3] was founded.
The arm-pull-down test is considered by the International College of Applied Kinesiology (I.C.A.K.) to be a very poor form of muscle testing. The arm-pull-down test involves so many different muscles that no specificity as to the muscle with the problem can be ascertained upon testing. Those who wish to become applied kinesiologists, are strongly advised and encouraged to take the 'touch for health' courses, in which the specific muscles and the precise positions for each muscle are explicitely taught."
J Am Diet Assoc. 1988 Jun;88(6):698-704. Applied kinesiology unreliable for assessing nutrient status.
Kenney JJ, Clemens R, Forsythe KD.
Pritikin Longevity Center , Santa Monica, California.
Applied kinesiology is a technique used to assess nutritional status on the basis of the response of muscles to mechanical stress.
In this study, 11 subjects were evaluated independently by three experienced applied kinesiologists for four nutrients (thiamin, zinc, vitamin A, and ascorbic acid). The results obtained by those applied kinesiologists were compared with (a) one another, (b) standard laboratory tests for nutrient status, and (c) computerized isometric muscle testing.
Statistical analysis yielded no significant interjudge reliability, no significant correlation between the testers and standard biochemical tests for nutrient status, and no significant correlation between mechanical and manual determinations of relative muscle strength.
In addition, the subjects were exposed in a double-blind fashion to supplements of thiamin, zinc, vitamin A, and ascorbic acid and two placebos (pectin and sucrose) and then re-tested.
According to applied kinesiology theory, "weak" (indicating deficiency) muscles are strengthened when the subject is exposed to an appropriate nutritional supplement.
Statistical analysis revealed no significant differences in the response to placebo, nutrients previously determined (by muscle testing) to be deficient, and nutrients previously determined (by muscle testing) to be adequate.
Even though the number of subjects (11) and nutrients (4) tested was limited, the results of this study indicated that the use of applied kinesiology to evaluate nutrient status is no more useful than random guessing.
PMID: 3372923
Applied kinesiology Encyclopedia of Alternative Medicine
Research & general acceptance AK is a tool that is used by many health care professionals, and especially by chiropractors.
A literature review published in 1999 by researchers from the School of Medicine at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the Foundation for Allied Conservative Therapies Research in Chapel Hill stated that,
although AK appears to be a promising methodology,
there is a lack of research results relevant to clinical practice and outcomes of AK care.
They found this lack of results surprising, since cost, satisfaction, utilization, and changes in symptoms are the important results of clinical practice.
In addition, they determined that some studies that were supposed to be an evaluation of AK procedures did not actually use clinical practices and principles of AK.
However, from studies adhering to AK principles and employing standardized training by well-trained practitioners, they did state there was some evidence that AK is an objectively verifiable phenomenon.
They suggested that "future studies of AK should focus on outcomes of care, including symptoms, function, costs, and safety.
Only well-designed studies that account for the individual nature of AK diagnosis and treatment and preserve the proper clinical context of AK treatment will be informative.
Understanding the individual components of the process of AK treatment remains important. Studies addressing validation of isolated AK procedures need to meet the methodological challenges of studying appropriate subjects that reflects the current recognized practice and understanding of AK.
Further evaluation of the basic physiologic phenomena involved and correlation of AK manual muscle test results will also advance understanding of this diagnostic and therapeutic system."
"It takes hundreds of hours of study and years of practice to perfect the multitude of diagnostic techniques that have been developed in AK.
In fact, any AK practitioner will tell you that s/he is constantly refining and developing manual muscle testing skills and the interpretation of the test results.
At first glance, muscle testing appears easy, fascinating and impressive.
The ability to test muscles, however, requires specific techniques, sensitivity and objectivity.
Once the muscle testing skill has been developed, it becomes necessary to interpret the outcome of the test.
Interpreting the results requires the years of training that qualifies one as a licensed physician.
Therefore, applied kinesiology is only taught to persons licensed to diagnose in the health care field.
To practice AK, one must take a basic course that takes over 100 hours of classroom study and practice to complete.
A basic proficiency exam in AK must be passed at the end of the course.
A minimum of 300 hours of AK instruction, passage of written and oral examinations, and submission of two original research papers are required to reach the next step; becoming a diplomate of the International Board of Applied Kinesiology (DIBAK). A diplomate represents the highest level of certification in AK."
Hoax or not...we don't really know for sure yet. What IS sure...it currently IS very controversial.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
My prediction....
You will learn later that there is alot to be learned from a good muscle tester. I've tested about 200 people now, including MDs that didn't believe the results and got confirmatory (or they were trying to confirm that I was wrong) tests only to show the AK was correct.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
I agree with Scott.
In addition, there are many forms of muscle testing - The International College of Applied Kineoseology is just another organization with their opinion and experience of using muscle testing. No more or less credible than many other such organizations. In other words, just because they say it, doesn't make it so.
Muscle testing has been discussed and debated here many times. These discussions can be found by using the search facility.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
There are as many forms of muscle testings as, ..... let me think...... there are different loaves of bread, rolls, cakes, cookies and pretzels in a German bakery!
ART, abbreviated for Autonomic Response Testing, is quite different from regular kinesiology and is not Applied Kinesiology either, for certain.
ART is based on the most recent advances in bio-physics -- not on outdated understandings of neurology and physiology.
ART acknowledges the existence of the biophoton field surrounding the physical body. This field carries the mechanism which regulates the function, activation and folding of all metabolic enzymes (and much more) via biophoton interference and coherence (Fritz-Albert Popp, PhD).
Only if you have seen ART used correctly, will you understand it and recognize the incredible value it brings to patient (and doctor) finding the correct approach to treatment and continuing treatment, be it on the biochemical level, the energy level, the emotional level, or the structural level. ART will signal to the point that causes the stress,
The stress response used in ART is sensed, organized and expressed by the bio-field of the entire organism and the field of each individual cell. It is most visibly expressed by the autonomic nervous sustem and its components: The Central Nervous System, the Sympathetic Nervous System, the Parasympathetic Nervous System and the Enteric Nervous System.
Okay, enough of this.
Marnie, no hoax. Read up.
Take care.
P.S. Controversial = don't understand
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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lymebytes
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11830
posted
Well, I must admit I have a hard time swallowing this as a diagnostic tool for organ illness or patient response to treatment.
After reading these links it is clear that people have suffered from wrong diagnosis and one even died.
I have a friend who clearly has LD (over a year) his LLMD performed muscle testing only a few months into abx and convinced him the antibiotics were not working. We know that not many chronic patients respond in 3 months. Fast forward 15 months he is torturous pain having been led astray off the correct (Lyme) path he was on and he is suffering horribly. I can only hope he finds his way to another LLMD.
He has seen many,many Md's now and nothing has turned up wrong, but way back in the beginning, LD. But he is convinced by this muscle test that antibiotics were not working and he stopped treatment after only 3 months. I pray he doesn't die because this test was clearly incorrect. Nothing else has been found in hundreds of tests. It angers me to see a friend suffer horribly based on an Md using this test that was clearly wrong. A switch in antibiotics would have made sense,not stopping them.
If muscle testing is related to certain organs etc, why not just xray or have a blood test in the first place?
Only my opinion, because I have watched a friend in dire straits barely hanging on because he had such belief of this test... that after witnessing this, I would never take a doctor serious who diagnosed me using this method and would never return.
posted
Works for me and my MD. I have used pendulums for years. All take time to learn. I love both Muscle testing and pendulum. We get same answers as blood and other tests.
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Lymebyte, you might be surprised to learn that within less than five minutes into an ART exam, it is known which of the organs is under greatest stress and which one needs the quickest attention:
Is it the frontal cortex, frontal sinuses, ears, maxillary sinuses, right lung, left lung, heart, stomach, liver, gall bladder, pancreas, kidneys, small intestine, large intestin, bladder (I am leaving a few out) === this equals approximately, I am guessing, $10,000 worth of lab tests.
Lab tests are wonderful if they tell you what you need to know. I think everyone that has suffered through Lyme has a story to tell there.
x-rays - you see the body completely static, without being in motion, without being challenged in any way to respond to any external or internal stressors. Not so with ART -- and that's how the problem areas are located. That's how we know in a minute which of the co-infections play a role, etc. etc. Viral - fungal - mold??? Heavy metal toxic - which ones?
I won't go on - just know that in Japan there are over 200,000 physicians who are using similar methods, lots of research papers on it, etc.
Stressed liver? Test the different liver agents and within a half a minute we know which one works best to alleviate the problem.
Within minutes we know which med works best for the microbe that we just found.
Within another minute we know that your bed at home is exposing you to geopathics or electromagnetic fields are turning your pineal gland into turmoil robbing you of sleep.
Just wish we had more MD's or other type or other type practitioners that are well trained and good in this field.
So sorry that your friend did not get the proper attention. That happened to me, with minutes to spare, before I found ART.
Take care.
[ 13. July 2007, 06:35 PM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Scott...YOU PERSONALLY have tested 200 people now?
"I've tested about 200 people now, including MDs that didn't believe the results and got confirmatory (or they were trying to confirm that I was wrong) tests only to show the AK was correct."
What medical field are you in?
What courses did you take to learn this, where, how long?
I thought you were a computer guru (programmer).
???
Did I miss something?
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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tailz
Unregistered
posted
Interesting post...
This is exactly why I think cell phones have messed with our health. Their frequencies have basically eroded our energy fields.
Anybody here read 'The Body Electric' or 'Cross Currents'?
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posted
I personally cannot see any objective evidence this can work. IMO muscle testing is an EMG or muscle biopsy. Sounds like hocus-pocus to me.
Posts: 340 | From Ohio | Registered: Oct 2005
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
1. Intolerance to any electromagnetic energy is one of many symptoms of multiple chemical sensitivity (MCS) which is very common in lyme.
2. I'll save you time and money. There is indeed a sympathetic and parasympathetic imbalance - autonomic nervous system dysfunction in lyme. If you have lyme, you have this dysfunction for SURE. You don't need Autonomic Response Testing for $$$. Believe me...it will indicate dysfunction.
3. Now what to do about this...
How to restore the balance, restore the HPA axis, block IL 1 Beta and TNF alpha...simultaneously....because that is what this is all about.
IL 1 beta is the worse of the two.
"There is now a great deal of evidence suggesting that IL-1 beta plays a significant role in hippocampal synaptic function, and the possibility that IL-1 beta may trigger some of the detrimental changes in certain neurodegenerative diseases is currently being assessed." PMID: 11898392
"Interleukin-1 beta inhibits rat thyroid cell function
in vivo and in vitro by an NO-independent mechanism and induces hypothyroidism and accelerated thyroiditis in diabetes-prone BB rats."
"Short exposure of rat pancreatic islets to interleukin-1 beta induces a sustained but reversible impairment in beta-cell function." (pancreatic beta cells release insulin).
"Insulin is a substance that works like a key
unlocking cells so that sugar can enter the cells
from the blood and be used to produce energy."
"The present study confirms that IL-1β can enhance conditioned fear memory, an effect which is correlated with changes in glucocorticoid function. This facilitation of defensive behaviour could reflect adaptive responses which may enhance survival during sickness."
"IL-1 beta stimulates superoxide and delayed peroxynitrite production by pulmonary vascular smooth muscle cells..."
"While still alive, neurons absorb IL-1B ( IL-1B absorption rate up to the level maximum IL-1B absorbed). Beyond a threshold of IL-1B (source triggering level), the neuron begins to produce
Amyloid Beta.
Buildup of IL-1-Beta triggers astrocytes (after some lag phase) which produce the inflammatory chemical, IL-6, which is toxic to neurons..."
Say hi to Alzheimers.
ONE way to try to halt this:
We conclude that dietary supplementation with n-3 fatty acids results in significantly reduced plasma IL-1 levels in patients with rheumatoid arthritis. Even though the cytokine levels were low, the anti-inflammatory effect of n-3 fatty acids could in part be explained by their ability to decrease cytokine production.
However...the Omega 3s are being DOWNREGULATED. It is easier for the body to use short chain fatty acids. (Omega 6s compared to the Omega 3s - short, long respectively) It doesn't take as many steps to break them down and re-arrange/utilize the amino acids in them.
Downregulate IL 1 Beta AND TNF alpha.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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posted
I am a skeptic on any treatment that is offered unless it displays itself in double-blind placebo controlled trials, as well as other means of authenticity. "Alternative" medicine is not exempt from this. Medicine isn't something one has to "believe" in, to work. Some "Alternative" treatments have been independently verified by examiners who are NOT in the "alternative" community. Acupuncture is the most famous one at the moment. However, a large percentage of other diagnostic and treatment procedures have either failed to show conclusive data from impartial sources, or are yet to be seriously tested.
That said, its very easy to make something "sound" scientific. Knowing what I know now, I could probably write a very convincing paper that lyme persistence is caused by the mind's theta waves affecting bacterial RNA plasmid replication. Then, I of course, could sell a device for $2000 that would down regulate these theta waves.
It would sound very scientific, and my miracle treatment would probably make "someone" feel better, who would champion my cause. Anything can work anecdotally. I could say that the mainstream medical "man" was keeping me down, and not accept criticism from that camp, keeping to "alternative" communities that would support me instead.
I write all this, because this is how I think of each and every treatment that I'm wary about. Currently, muscle testing/ART is one of these. GiGi, clearly one of people who has posted in this thread has had a friend devastated by the results of this test. This test seems to be very, very reliant on the skill of the person interpreting it. Then how do you know a good ART person from a bad one? Is there any actual "data" that can be recorded and taken for a second opinion? If used as a diagnostic procedure, what is the proper treatment? "classic" medicine like antibiotics? Herbal? Another "energy" treatment? A combination of the above?
Controversial means people have differing opinions on validity. I don't believe this indicates that someone doesn't understand or is ignorant. Take politics for instance: Look at the current controversial war (The USA in Iraq, for our international friends reading). Sometimes a controversy will end with the decision being deemed the correct one in the end, and others it will just be flat out wrong!
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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SForsgren
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Member # 7686
posted
In some ways I agree - it is much like the controversy over taking antibiotics to treat Lyme disease - maybe it's the right thing and maybe it will be proven to be flat out wrong.... We'll see.
Since that is still viewed as controversial by some, maybe we should all stop taking them. I certainly would not want to do something that someone thought might help me - especially given its controversial nature.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Marnie,
"You don't need Autonomic Response Testing for $$$. Believe me...it will indicate dysfunction."
On the contrary, Marnie, ART is the perfect tool: it certainly works wonders putting back the autonomics into balance by #1 exposing the patient to ART itself, and #2 finding the very basic source and cause for the dysfunction to happen; and #3 the corrective measures that are tolerated by the patient and thus leading to fixing the problems.
In the Lyme Disease, I assure you that in 99.99 % of patients, it is not the Lyme bacteria or their companions - rather the underlying toxic terrain which invites the Lyme bacteria and companions to set up housekeeping.
With ART, we find the best means to clean up the toxic terrain, everywhere in the body as well as in the mind (emotional conflicts?) and the rest follows in time. The testing and determining the best treatment is accomplished (into every region of the body) in an hour or less, not days or weeks. This can be followed with objective lab testing, etc. if desired by patient and/or doctor, and is often chosen if good testing is available.
By the way, the most objective comparison of the of ART based treatments is very clearly seen on Heart Rate Variability testing (done before and after). HRV is an accepted "computer tool" by "regular doctors" and some hospitals. I have been tested often and it was as clear as day that the treatment that had been chosen via ART was taking me in the right direction - basically from rock bottom on the HRV chart to a healthy individual.
Now to your suggestion "3. Now what to do about this...":
I can't follow beyond your first line what you are doing to the patient or giving the patient to fix the problems of the autonomics. I really, really try --- . Sorry.
Not understanding what ART really is and how it functions should not cause you to call it a hoax or any of these other beloved quackery adjectives. Please don't - it rather offends the thousands and me who have benefited from it.
Please judge after you understand ART. And it is not AK or Applied Kinesiology. Applied Kinesiology is not Autonomic Response Testing.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
"ART (Autonomic Response Testing ) uses Applied Kinesiology, Electroacupuncture (EAV), O-Ring testing, Nogier pulse, Chinese pulse, heart rate variability and other techniques
to assess the health or dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system."
ART is a TESTING method for dysfunction of the autonomic nervous system (imbalance of sympathetic and parasympathetic nerve signalling).
It is NOT a treatment, it is a testing method for dysfunction.
"The autonomic nervous system consists of two parts: the sympathetic system and the parasympathetic system.
The sympathetic system can best be thought of as controlling the ``fight or flight'' reactions of the body, producing the rapid heart rates, increased breathing, and increased blood flow to the muscles that are necessary when an individual is in danger or under stress.
The parasympathetic system controls the ``quiet'' body functions, for instance, the digestive system. In short, the sympathetic system gets the body ready for action, while the parasympathetic system gets the body ready for rest.
And in normal individuals, the parasympathetic and sympathetic components of the autonomic nervous systems are in perfect balance, from moment to moment, depending on the body's instantaneous needs.
In people suffering from dysautonomia, the autonomic nervous system loses that balance, and at various times the parasympathetic or sympathetic systems inappropriately predominate.
Symptoms can include frequent, vague but disturbing aches and pains, faintness (or even actual fainting spells), fatigue and inertia, severe anxiety attacks, tachycardia, hypotension, poor exercise tolerance, gastrointestinal symptoms such as irritable bowel syndrome, sweating, dizziness, blurred vision, numbness and tingling, anxiety and (quite understandably), depression."
Tilt table testing (BP)and heart rates (pulse)after deep breathing are also traditional indicators of dysregulation of the automonic nervous system.
"During the first visit, a doctor using ART will evaluate the patient with a special attention on identifying any of the factors that are blocking ANS regulation.
This is accomplished through a review of the patient's medical and dental history and a physical exam that includes kinesiology and nervous system evaluation.
Once the blockages have been identified, the doctor will choose a treatment plan that will correct these problems .
"A typical visit may reveal that a patient has severe wheat allergies, heavy metal toxicity from mercury in their teeth, and a scar from a past appendix surgery that are all causing stress on the ANS.
The primary treatment for this patient would include scar therapy (using neural therapy, wheat germ oil, or cold laser), dietary advice to avoid wheat and gluten grains, and a referral to a biological dentist to replace the mercury fillings.
In addition, the doctor may suggest natural remedies including homeopathic drainage, vitamins, minerals, herbs, essential fatty acids, amino acids, exercise, and meditation."
"When the sympathetic nervous system is stimulated it can cause such things as dilation of the pupils of the eye, the constriction of blood vessels in the head, stomach, and extremities, increase in blood flow in the heart and muscles, the mouth dries up, adrenaline is pumped into the blood stream, air passages expand, the stomach stops working, the liver works hard to produce available sugar for energy, the kidneys slow down (secretion of urine is reduced), the bladder wall relaxes, the skin is stimulated to sweat and sometimes to contract its muscles. All of this is the body's natural defense mechanism.
People with impaired sympathetic nervous systems can be susceptible to low blood pressure and fainting. When the sympathetic nervous system becomes over aroused it can result in panic attacks, general anxiety disorders and stress. The sympathetic nervous system also integrates brain and immune function."
Scott...what HAS enabled you to resume water skiing, skydiving and running 10K races while holding down a job, maintaining a home, etc.?
Abx., detoxing, OR...
We now demonstrate that IL-1 beta-induced
but not IL-6-induced promatrilysin (MMP-7) expression
can be blocked by androgens
in the prostate carcinoma cell line LNCaP ( lymph node-derived carcinoma cells of the prostate ).
PMID: 12210475
"Testosterone is a steroid hormone from the androgen group."
It is probaby a good idea to keep up your hair loss drug!
"Promatrilysin; rhPro-MMP-7 Description:Latent form of matrix metalloproteinase believed to be a key factor in the regulation of metastasis."
"MMP-7, the smallest member of the MMP-family, is a *zinc-dependent metalloproteinase* and is overexpressed in colon cancer and many other human cancers."
Refreshing...IL 1 beta induced promatrilysin is blocked by androgens.
"Metalloproteases, on the other hand, seem to be a common feature in most bacterial pathogens."
(Metalloprotease,by definition, means attracted to metals - usually in the mitochondria.) It is an enzyme.
Women by far are more likely to develop autoimmune due to many factors.
IL 1 Beta is NOT our "friend"! The inflammatory cytokines are the "toxic terrain" triggered by Bb.
REread above the other detrimental effects of Il 1 beta that I posted!
Get IL 1 Beta AND TNF alpha down...INactivate NFkB.
P.S. Gi Gi...read with accuracy please. The title of this post is "Muscle testing what is it and hoax or NOT?"
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
thank you for your posts GiGi - i wholeheartedly agree.
ART is wonderful. you have to experience it yourself to fully understand what it does, and how effectively it works. *
[marnie, again, i cannot comprehend your posts when they descend into scientific-ese. i no longer have neuro-lyme symptoms, and am usually quite intelligent, if i do say so myself; i simply have no training in advanced biological science, nor do i wish to take the time to delve into it to the extent needed to understand your posts (i'm too busy playing music, working, going out with friends, cuddling with my cats, writing poetry - ie, LIVING). once again, a request: please, please translate your posts into language that most of us can understand, keeping in mind that a large majority of people who post and read here are afflicted with severe neurological lyme disease. PLEASE be sympathetic to that.]
posted
Thanks, Marnie! What worries me is that the medical community denies chronic Lyme, multiple chemical sensitivies, and electromagnetic field sensitivity. It's scary.
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
heiwalove,
There are doctors , nurses, dentists, and others on this website who understand medical terminology and want to understand this disease or at least try to.
I have no "advanced biological science degree".
I simply wanted to learn and I love to learn, to read, to research, especially the "latest" medical information. It's "my thing". This is what I am most interested in.
While you like "playing music, working, going out with friends, cuddling with my cats, writing poetry"
That's OKAY! It really is.
Just SOB (scroll on by) my posts if you have no interest in delving into the science behind this disease.
My posts (many of them) are not for "everyone" here. No one has the time to read all the posts and respond to them.
We ALL pick and chose the topics of interest.
BTW...I have done EDS, Rife, Ondamed, and an ozone sauna...to judge for myself their effects after I first studied them...in depth...after hours and hours of research.
And I bought a far infrared sauna and a Soloflex machine AFTER I researched them...in depth.
The point is this...we already KNOW there is a sympathetic-parasympathetic imbalance in lyme.
No point in paying for ART. If you have lyme, you DO have a serious imbalance in the Autonomic nervous system.
Now...about how to address this imbalance (and all the others)...which is triggered by Bb...is another thing.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
Yes Marnie, I understood you the first time when you stated that their was an imbalance assumed when one has been diagnosed with lyme disease.
Too bad you had to explain all that to get back to where you were.
One comment I would like to make to those who have gone to these various "ART" folks etc.
You claim these tests prove in minutes exactly what is wrong, when and where and why.
However, have you not already given the ART folks the answer to your ills, before being put on these diagnostic machines, when you wrote down your medical history?
All the practitioner needs do then is simply read back to you the symptoms of lyme disease and the various organs affected in those that suffer from lyme disease.
Heck, if you came to me and told me beforehand that you have lyme disease. I could hook you up to my toaster and plug it in and look thru the
window on my microwave accross the room, acting like I'm reading something important. Then when I've sufficiently impressed you by bringing in the big testing module,
that is my refridgerator. I will rattle off all your symptoms and the organs that correlate with those symptoms. Then impress you even more by giving you one heck of a bill!
Does that about cover what goes on? I mean you never went into the ART guys office and purposely neglected telling him that you suffered from lyme disease, did you?
NO?
You gave him your medical history right?
Well, heck....any self respecting con artist is going to have SOME education concerning what they're trying to pull off.
No, I don't know this for sure. Can you tell me though for sure that you were diagnosed by these machines because you never told this practitioner that you have/had lyme disease?
I mean, honestly. Did you go into their office and just say something like....I'm sick..and I don't know why...can you help me?
Some of what I said up their is meant to be humorous, not in a hurtful way...I wish to assure you.
But can you answer this one basic question I've asked?
northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
BBoo......
You have to experience it to understand it.
You cannot intellectualize about it until you have experienced it.
See an ART practitioner. Go in honestly in your heart, otherwise you can block responses.
The imbalance is a symptom.....with many sources, and the object is to find how many/what causes have led to the imbalance, and then to find the most effective tx for them, which depends on the person at that point in time.
Its a little loosey goosey....but any tx is a hypothesis waiting to be tested.
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
Northstar, With all due respect...
I have intellect, and an intellectual interest, therefore, I can indeed, intellectualize about this subject. Unless, of course, the intelligentsia surrounding this subject, treat it merely as an itellectual property.
Would you mind answering my one and only question?
northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
BB,
Yes, I appreciate logic, intellect, deductive, inductive, rational discussions.
The field of energy is of another realm, though.
It is not of the mind.
Sometimes experiencing something in the first person is more valuable than third person discourse.
Now, the question....
I ask you...Which question of the following are you asking? (from your posting) :
(Yes Marnie, I understood you the first time when you stated that their was an imbalance assumed when one has been diagnosed with lyme disease.
One comment I would like to make to those who have gone to these various "ART" folks etc. You claim these tests prove in minutes exactly what is wrong, when and where and why. )
Question 1.
However, have you not already given the ART folks the answer to your ills, before being put on these diagnostic machines, when you wrote down your medical history?
Question 2:
All the practitioner needs do then is simply read back to you the symptoms of lyme disease and the various organs affected in those that suffer from lyme disease. Heck, if you came to me and told me beforehand that you have lyme disease. I could hook you up to my toaster and plug it in and look thru the window on my microwave accross the room, acting like Does that about cover what goes on?
Question 3:
I mean you never went into the ART guys office and purposely neglected telling him that you suffered from lyme disease, did you?
Question 4:
NO?
Question 5:
You gave him your medical history right?
Question 6:
Can you tell me though for sure that you were diagnosed by these machines because you never told this practitioner that you have/had lyme disease?
Question 7:
I mean, honestly. Did you go into their office and just say something like....I'm sick..and I don't know why...can you help me?
Question 8:
But can you answer this one basic question I've asked?
------------------
Yes, ART is non-traditional, but the frame of reference for the logic of it is not found in the 2 dimensional world.
Also, I believe there are different levels of personal skill and background knowledge between practitioners, which can dilute effectiveness and accuracy of outcome.
Even Gigi says that not all are successful with Dr. K protocol. But many are.
I have used 2 ART practitioners, 2 kinesiologists, and 1 vegas, and 1 EDS practitioners in this journey.
Each was a valuable experience. One of the kinesiology workers was a fine example on how not to do it. The best has been the Vegas and other Applied Kinesiologist. There was overlap with the ART, but other factors led me to my current practitioner.
I also will relay to you that of the 6 practitioners, only one knew I was having pain in certain root canals, yet all picked up they were bad.
One (ART) practioner picked up scar trauma from a hidden old scar, and he had not seen the scar. The other was not addressing this, so it would not be fair to say the trauma was missed.
There also is actual accuracy of kinesiology; I have read that kinesiology at its best is 85% accurate. Still, it is better than a duck telling you it is all in your head. At least it provides a platform for investigation.
Muscle testing is not of the 5 senses we are used to operating with.
Results are not only influenced by practitioner ability and skill, but also by the client's approach: non-judgmental, non-biased, neither pro nor con, just a state of no-mind, to let the levels/areas respond to the practitioner.
Northstar.
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Re. ART, I would love to see it subjected to double blind tests.
I'd love for it to work, but I'm not a believer yet, AND I have been a patient of "the master", Dr. Klinghardt himself.
People have so many unconscious biases and prejudices. Unless they are a buddha, I don't see how they account for unconscious projections with ART.
I know the mind a little --I've done intensive meditiation. There are so many layers of delusion in us, I don't know who is "clear" enough to do this kind of testing.
Posts: 211 | From NC | Registered: Dec 2005
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
Hey their mtnwoman....
Ole northstar said it was a "no mind" kinda thing...
cuz the practice of ART is "not of the mind"...
I guess it's more like pulling energy from all the waves of string that make up the polydimensional world we live in and you kinda...
absorb in with the positive waves....
and out with the bad!
is that it ole northstar!? Man I gotta quit with these questions....
By the way my poetic use of the word intellect made perfect grammatical sense in the first person singular...
However yours only made sense about four words in....in the third person pleural!
northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
Dear Mr. Boo:
Do I have to dowse/use pendulum, to find what/which your question is?
Actually, I understand you do not believe in it. And that you think it is sci/fi.
That's ok! You are not alone. Twelve years ago, I thought it was hokey, myself. I knew the intellectual definition of bio-energy. Until I had a very weird introduction to the world of energy. And realized there was another world within our world. It was weird and scared the daylights out of me.
Back to kinesiology, though.
The people (lyme) I have talked to , that have had lyme brought up as a possibility, through kinesiology, then.... go to a llmd to have it confirmed. See...no dx there.
I did not go to a kinesiologist for my dx.
Remember: working hypothesis! Not fact!
But the "good" kinesiology workers do use it to test other areas that impact your health, and all that has been talked about, including nutritional supplements, metals, parasites, fungus, emotional stressors, possible interactions, etc.
Ha...try to get an md to even admit these things are of importance, or are relevant, or even exist as a possible health condition! Or would even test for them due to insurance and med board hassles.
I even had a gastro deny gastric candidiasis as a possible condition in any human.
The laboratory "tests" for these are not in the acceptable medical practice either, nor are they always reliable. Remember discussions about metals? Or vitamin levels in tissue vs. blood, and so on.
And for the record, I have an llmd, I use abx. I also go to the adjunctive fields for total body support. I would be a mess without supplements, body work, etc........all targets found through kinesiology.
Also, one or two (supplement) kinesiology results did not pan out.....hey no one is perfect! But it has really been positively accurate for so many things.
Twas fun!
Add on: oh, to talk about , to have written knowledge, of something is not the same as experiencing/living it (first vs. third person allusion in my previous post). So the point was to find an ND or energy worker who does it....but remember, not all are skilled or as effective as others.
Once you see energy does exist, that is the premise of kinesiology. Watch your practitioners, though, since not all are equal.
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Just a few thoughts from my own experience:
Many chronically ill don't know that they might have Lyme. Most don't even know that there is such a thing as Lyme Disease. They are sick - many crawling in. Find out what's wrong with me!
The only history that is asked for is: When did it start?
Visiting a good ART practitioner does not mean you are going to be cured on the third visit. It took me close to five years to unwind my system to make it functional again -- gradually, gradually. If course I am also a lot older than most of you and my healing capacities are not as those of a person in their fifties and sixties.
A good practitioner learns to "read" you practically as you walk in the door after he has seen you a few times. Trust has to develop. If you walk in with a negative attitude and energy, it is pretty tough for the doctor to keep his energy level up and do his best. This type of treatment is very energy-consuming for the practitioner as well.
I do think there is such a thing as mental toxicity. Dr. K. would call it "mental pollution". I think it is frequently right here, very present on this very board. Doctors who treat ill people should open the windows after every patient - caused by the mental garbage - not the physical. I know that I created a lot of it during my first year's treatments. I am still close to the people who treated me back then and today we laugh about it. But everbody involved has learned a thing or two.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
Just my own experience here:
I quit going to doctors about fifteen years ago when they kept telling me that nothing was wrong with me, while I was in serious pain and exhausted.
I have been going to two different kinesiologists for several years, previous to lyme diagnosis.
Interesting that the herbs and supplements reccommended through the muscle testing process are the same or similar to those recommended by ILADS and/or Buhner.
Now that I have a diagnosis, I am more serious about taking what the kinesiologist tests me for. So now that I take them consistently, longterm, together, and in high enough doses, I am getting well.
I don't believe it's just a placebo. It seems more of a stretch to look at it as an amazing cooincidence.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
marnie - the reason i get frustrated reading your posts is because i think you probably have something really important to contribute, with all the endless hours of research you've clearly put into this disease. i think people could benefit greatly from understanding what you're trying to say. why not post both - the scientific jargon and then a simple translation for lay folk (again, keeping in mind that people with neurolyme would probably like to understand your posts too)? *
for all the skeptics out there, that's totally okay, ART may not be for you. just like anything (including western medicine!), it's not going to work as effectively if you walk in already convinced it's a bunch of hullabaloo. an open mind & heart are crucial to getting the best result possible out of any treatment.
GiGi is certainly right about the incredible amount of negative energy around here. that energy will not help you get better!
klutzo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5701
posted
For me the jury is still out on AK, though I've had plenty of it done, by many different practitioners, ranging from Chiros, to MD's to Naturopaths to TCM docs. I've not had ART, so will not comment upon it.
I just want to say to doubters that it is not true that all AK practitioners will parrot your medical history back to you.
I saw a holistic Chiro for a whole year, who used AK as his main dx method, and he continued to insist that his muscle testing showed I did NOT have Lyme Disease anymore, after a couple months of herbal and energy treatments he prescribed to get rid of it.
One of the Lyme treatments he put me on that tested as good for me put me in the hospital ER with liver stress and a dangerously high potassium level, which had to be treated to prevent heart problems.
He still insisted on my Lyme being gone, despite my having another positive Bowen test for Lyme after he said it, and despite my still having strong herxes when taking Samento.
His AK testing found my continuing ill health to be due to yeast, molds, thyroid receptor blockage, and adrenal fatigue.
So, not all of them are total scam artists. My doctor really believed in his testing, and ended up loosing me as a patient as a result. Of course, this does not prove that AK works.
Before settling on him, I saw two other docs at the same clinic, and they both found other things that he did not and vice versa. The only thing they all agreed upon was adrenal fatigue.
I also recently spent several months seeing 2 TCM docs who use AK along with acupuncture. I thought I had a problem with my gallbladder, which I did, and which later resulted in surgery.
However, they both insisted the problem was in a duct, not the gallbladder itself. Examination of the organ after removal proved that to be wrong. My ducts were fine, but the organ itself was full of stones.
However, conventional medicine's testing methods were seriously flawed too in my case. Two gallbladder ultrasounds and two HIDA tests all failed to find anything wrong with my gallbladder, and I ended up having to be subjected to a very invasive and expensive procedure to "prove" it was my gallbladder.
My conclusion for now is to go with my gut feeling, but trust nobody completely.
Klutzo
Posts: 1269 | From Clearwater, Florida, USA | Registered: May 2004
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hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
I would rather say, 'trust what works'. That's what I do. I do trust my two ART practioners and they do COMPLETELY different treatments on me. It's not a miracle, it still takes time to get well.
Jurek, S. is NOT INTERESTED really in which pathogens your body has, I think. She didn't even tested me for mycoplasma this time, while my other doctor tested me for all (and found myco).
She's interested if your ANS is working, and if not, why not. I guess she knows we're LOADED with pathogens, that's not the only thing that makes us sick.
When she discovered borrelia/ bart and babesia were blocking me, that was enough for her. Got it? She didn't go further asking what pathogens I still have. I think each practioner has its way of working. She'll tell you what she thinks it's making you MORE SICK by order of importance.
ART for me is the way to go. Parallel to it, I do my own simple muscle tests to check sups/ herbs.
For this reinfection, NO ONE is medicating me. I'm my own 100% practioner for ALL pathogen killers (ops, no, except for 2 weeks of doxy after tick bite). Both my ART practioners help where I can't, with my whole picture of my ANS, with teeth problems, and with products I have no idea they exist to regulate my organs.
My own muscle tests seem to work well for measuring herbs. Sometimes I get mistakes, but it's usually when I'm tired and less concentrated.
I dont' recommmend anyone totally sick to do that alone either. I don't think it will work (blocked regulation).
You could tune the medicine, but not do it all by yourself, I guess. I'm on this ART treatment for more than a year and Buhner's herbs for more than that, so I KNOW which herbs I can take, how to take them, which supplements I need usually, what to use as cleansers etc. But if you're just starting, no, you gotta need help from a good practioner. It works WONDERFUL for me. And for my little daughter.
Pshycho-kinesiology done following dr. K. is one of the most amazing things I and my daughter are experiencing at the moment. I can't say how I'm thankful for this type of treatment to exist.
Anyone seeing it done first time would be 'skeptical' as I was. Just seeing the results, you start to believe! It's so fast! (not to heal lyme, this still takes time).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I appreciate everyone contributing to the discussion here, but I'm greatly disturbed by the amount of people saying that skepticism will actually prevent treatment from working or somehow make it more difficult for the ART practitioner to correctly read you.
This troubles me because this is typically an aspect of "faith" not of "medicine". There are plenty of poor, sick people in third-world countries who do not "believe" that modern medicine will work.
However, if you give them penicillin for their staph infections or mepron for malaria, the medicine has a chemical process that /will/ work regardless of your belief structure. Is it better to have a positive attitude because it causes less stress on your system when fighting a disease, sure. However, skepticism or lack of belief in a medical treatment does not cause the treatment to falter!
Take out someone's appendix when its about to burst, even if they believe the pain in their stomach can be only cleared by sacrificing a goat, and they will still recover!
Lets look at a metaphor: If I replace "ART practitioner" with "Shaman", doesn't the whole scheme of things still sound the same? Ie. You go to the Shaman, who has a special secret way of diagnosing what's wrong with you. Now, some Shamans have a better natural ability than others to reach into the spirit ether and bring forth reasons for your sickness. If you doubt the Shaman's ability or the process itself, there's a chance you'll seal up the gateway so that the shaman won't be able to channel the correct juju, therefore messing up your diagnosis and/or treatment. The Shaman can then say "come back when your mind and heart are clear, and pay me another 10 chickens and 1 cow". If you show up again and either get an incomplete, incorrect, or just don't end up with a diagnosis, the Shaman can use a similar example to dance around any blame. "Oh there was some disturbance between the 4th and 5th spiritual plains".
I'm not writing this to make anyone feel foolish; I'm writing because I don't want to see anyone who's sick get taken advantage of. Have I thought about buying one of those "cure lyme instantly by reading these books and listening to these tapes" programs, when I was feeling horrible and felt that I should grasp at anything? Of course! But my rational mind won out that there are people out there, the worse kind of people, who promise miracles but serve only to scam the chronically ill just looking for answers.
I'm not against all sorts of "alternative" therapy. I see a pair of LLMDs, a M.D. who also works in homeopathy, and an herbalist. All of them know I am a very scientific mind and I've told them up front about any skepticism I've had about treatments. They've all provided answers that at least seem plausible, I could research on my own to corroborate, and not once did they ever say my skepticism would influence the effectiveness of diagnostics or treatment.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
Ok Northstar and a couple other folks that are pro this ART or K thingy.
First of all. In every doctors office I have ever gone in for a first time visit. The office folks give you a bunch of forms to fill out.
Many questions are asked of the new patient on these forms and you're expected to answer the questions honestly.
GIGI, if a person goes into any healthcare workers office and simply or dramatically says, "I'm sick"! "Please help me"! the first
thing the practitioner is going to ask is, "What seems to be your trouble"?
or
"Where does it hurt"?..."What's your biggest complaint or most extreme pain"? The latter of course will immediately send up a red flag that
this person is a drug seeker.
Somewhere, in all of this, the person in need of help will have pretty much told the practitioner where,how frequently,how severe,symptoms seem to present themselves.
Any practitioner with a knowledge of anatomy can name the organs underneath where the patient will point to in his/her descriptions.
Of course the practitioner will also mention the many pollutants we live with every day that make us sick. Including stressors, not the least
of which because that one seems to be popular at present. It's blamed for everything from biting ones nails to killing people!
Northstar...I can assure you that, out of all the regular MD's, llmd's and at least one hollistic psychic "healer". 100 percent of them
mentioned almost all of those outside influences on my wellbeing. Contrary to your statement. Funny enough they all happen to live
in the same three dimensional world in which we all reside. Last time I looked anyway, string or wave, poly dimensional worlds, were still a
theory for the quantum physisists to prove, in order to exclaim to the world that they have finally, a theory of "everything", that Einstein never finished working on.
While I have your attention northstar. Why are llmd's sweating out the fact that they don't have a double blind study testing the efficacy
of treating lyme with antibiotics. After all, is it not a well proven fact that if a patient presents with a bacterial or viral infection the
appropriate and long accepted protocol would be to treat the infection with an antibiotic or antiviral until long after the symptoms no
longer present. I mean, if you'll permit this little analogy, if the United States Law enforcers simply acted on existing laws on the
books governing actions against illegal aliens in this country. We would'nt have accumulated 12 million mexicans. Do you see my point? I mean
any other time I have ever gone to a doctor and was told I had an infection. I was given a prescription for antibiotics and told to keep
taking them, even AFTER all the symptoms are gone.
Except this is not the case with Lyme disease....maybe you could explain that to me because therein lies the only true controversy
that I can see. Medical doctors are not permitted to treat infection with antibiotics...in much the same way that doctors
are hunted down and prosecuted for prescribing painkillers to patients who, amazingly enough, have chronic pain!
The bad guys must be complaining that the old folks homes are cutting into their action and using up all the good drugs.
So why the heck do our llmd's have to prove anything? They are simply treating an active infection with antibiotics!
Furthermore, if this ART stuff or K stuff does'nt diagnose anything for lymies, and probably no one else either, what would I be paying for?
Back to GIGI for a min...maybe even you northstar... I remember Gigi saying that she was long cured from lyme disease when she found the ART or wonderful doctor "K".
I would like to make the speculation that having gotten the lyme out of your system. The balance was re-established in your body and
shakra and over the ensuing months of seeing these other guys you would have gotten better by yourself anyway.
Considering the thing that was causeing the imbalance was lyme disease.
Yes, I remember you saying something about the body being out of balance thus allowing MR. BB to infect and live in our systems.
I do not believe that cuz...I was a fairly good athlete in pretty good shape when this thing hit me. I'm relatively sure the tick or other vector
had no idea what was living in me as far as a happy home for it's present tenants were concerned.
I am further pretty sure that Mr. BB would reside wherever if could find the necessary nutrients it needs to survive and would probably
prefer someone who is in good shape, with appropriate running nutrients for the taking, then a broken down "fix er upper" victim.
I don't know if I've covered all I wanted to but....I'm a little tired right now so I'll leave you with this little gem.
In the words of Judge Judy fame...."if it does'nt make sense, it's probably a lie"
posted
No nimzovich no problem...all I know about it is what I see on the tube discovery channels.
The last one I saw was saying that the strings were actually waves...possibly made up of the black material that the rest of space is made up
of. Then, after you take away all the rocky,gaseous planets and comets and stuff. when all that's left is this black stuff and gravity. You take
away gravity and you're left with this black stuff...which is more prevalent than gravity.
I was'nt aware that the eggheads (I say that affectionately) of the world of math/science/physics, had actually declared that we were living in a four dimensional world....time being the last discovered? Right?
Well at least it's better than a two dimensional world...but I might have been being too picky with northstar. Or whatever he meant that, I did'nt understand.
To clear up a little of my last post...if this "hypothetical, tool, does'nt diagnose anything and does'nt treat anything like lyme disease.
What good was it again? What am I spending my money for exactly?
I mean, if we leave our bodies alone and not purposely feed them bad stuff. If we then get rid of any disease, like lyme or coinfections, so as to re-balance our bodies.
Won't our bodies automatically replace cells and stuff fast enough to change our bodies,
chemistry wise, returning balance once again to the innerworld that is our physical and mental self. Is that what you meant by only two dimensions northstar?
Hey if you guys are right and blackstone is wrong then....I better have a "glass half full" attitude when I plunk down my money.
I mean according to you and GIGI, if we don't have a positive attitude we won't get cured....sounds like placebo effect to me one way or the other..
Or are we after a cure to begin with?
Exactly how do these guys do their treatments?
Do they pass their hands over us as we lay on a table or something? Do they use machines or lasers, colored lights can hypnotize ya know.
And what about all those folks who get freaked out and have seizures because of things as inane as T.V. or flourescent bulbs at Walmart?
Won't they be doing more harm than good?
I mean I can see me laying there all calm and stuff one minute...as this practitioner passes a light saber over my body....and then WHAM!
I start shaking all over like, I'm having, some kind of epyleptic seizure thingy and then the "Dark Side" takes over. Just because the
practitioner, has'nt given him his cut for the month...and out pops "Darth Vader" or something....I mean....this is kinda scarey!
Ya go fooling around with the spiritual world, and you never know who's gonna pop out of a patient or wall.
What if I disappear or something and go slipping and slidding in and out of these dimensions. I might run into "dimensional ButchieBoo #18",
or something, and he's not happy where he is so he slips into my dimension while I'm visiting
his and I can't make it back because there's some kind of "time/space continuum rule" that can't be broken.
You know, like how we're not able to cancel out anyone's existance by traveling back in time and slipping his great grandma a birth control mikki finn.
Who's gonna collect my disability check? Pay for my Viper?
Man, you guys are scaring me no end.....
I think I'll do my antibiotics and leave all this spooky stuff to you people who believe in this stuff.
Would you agree, northstar, that, I can most certainly convey intelligently, the effects, a .357 magnum, hollow point bullit fired at my face,
from point blank range, might have on rearranging my complexion. Believe it or not.
I would be able to discuss this intellectually, without the experience of having it actually happen. In fact, it would have to be a requirement.
posted
OK I guess I owe you ART and K folks an apology....
I did'nt understand this thing.
But see, that's probably because you guys and gals did'nt fully explain how it works.
You GIGI you....and you silly little northstar you!!
Now I get it....
All ya have to do is make, up a couple of new things that did'nt and probably still don't exist.
I mean no one could ever read the physical body whithout the existence of that "BIOPHOTON FIELD".
That's of course how physics got all mixed in with all of this....
And hey, ya might as well make up a new nervous system to go with it....unles the "ENTERIC" nervous system that is supposed to be part of
the Autonomic nervous system, REALLY does exist, and I missed it in my books.
I really am just an amateur at all this medical stuff....
I sure am glad that stuff is out in the open now. Perhaps you could now tell us how this "Biophoton Field" actually points to the problem area of the body??
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Selma explained Blocked Regulation of the Autonomic Nervous System as it relates to ART. In ART, it is necessary that the regulation be open=unblocked so that the body can reveal the truth with muscle strength or weakness. Both can be "good or bad".
There is no extensive discussion on history or medical reports,except history of surgeries (for scars), dental work, and "when did it start?" (It often starts following a dental intervention, stress event, breakup, etc.)
The patient is ART tested following a brief physical exam, usually on the first visit, for the seven issues that are commonly responsible for blocked regulation and chronic illness:
Factor #1 Toxins: Heavy metals, xenobiotics, solvents and biotoxins from microorganisms (Lyme and co-infections, mycoplasma, chlamydia, viruses, fungi, mold, etc.)
Factor #3: Structural Problems: TMD/Malocclusion, bridge crossing the midline, vertebral and cranial subluxation, etc.
Factor #4: Energetic Perturbances: Dysfunctional scars, ganglia, acupuncture meridians and points. Blocked chakras, electrogalvanism, etc.
Factor #5 : Food Intolerances:
Factor #6: Geopathic Stress
Factor #7: Unresolved psycho-emotional conflict or trauma(treatment is usually brief and effective)
The patient's treatment starts already with the testing. The materials/medicines/abx/remedies are tested. Whichever tests best and unblocks the Autonomic regulation is recommended and used. The patient might have to see a biological dentist next. Or might have to take some corrective steps to change sleeping location (Move the bed a foot to the R or L, or more) Next visit all is tested again or different meds are tested, with emphasis on open regulation, and the best chosen. Layer by layer.
Testing for blocked regulation is the first test performed in ART. It assures that the system itself can disclose the information needed to change itself. Most other muscle testing methods do not consider this fact. Applied Kinesiology also does not test for blocked regulation.
This is ART in brief. Trust and cooperation is necessary. It is performed with the greatest of care by a good practitioner. It's without a doubt the best thing I ran across.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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MariaA
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9128
posted
I went and had it done out of curiosity, and I think I had an open mind about it since so many people here on Lymenet report great results and I know that Dr K has great success treating Lyme and I believe that some of his more 'odd-sounding' ideas do actually work (even if it's for some reason other than the unscientific-sounding ones he sometimes uses).
I also do believe that this is probably a useful tool, some of the time, because I believe it may give a physician a way to focus their intuition.
I'm still trying to keep an open mind because i think we have poorly understood/explored how intuition works, as practiced by a medical professional with years of experience in the medical field.
I tried to mostly not give the person testing me any cues about what I knew about my health (which was difficult to avoid doing).
The results were just about 100% wrong on most diagnostic points where they claim to have found something wrong with me (coinfections, allergies, and other stuff), with the only correct positive results being explainable by the testers' bias being influenced by the supplements I brought with me (ie I had some Yeast Cleanse stuff and some Lyme meds with me and the practitioner already knew I had these two problems to begin with and the test showed that I have yeast and Lyme).
The testing was wrong both in terms of me being told I had certain things that I actually have absolutely no symptoms of (like babesia, which I'm sure I don't have any symptoms of), and being told that I don't have other problems which I know from laboratory tests I test very high in (like testing as 'not having a problem currently' for heavy metals, which is actually a HUGE problem for me both from symtpoms, lab tests, and reaction to chelating agents).
The dangerous part was being told that I shouldn't take certain supplements because they don't "test well".
The tester was suggesting alternate brands, of course (not because he was selling them). IT seemed wrong because I"m pretty sure I listen to my body fairly well, and those 'bad' supplements and products seemed useful to me, whereas others that he thought tested really good (like my brand of acidophilus) didn't seem like they had any effect 'in real life' at all when I took them.
I'd be very, very worried about someone being misdiagnosed because of this belief in the infallability of this testing, or being told to not take a drug that is in fact effective, such as the story at the beginning of this thread.
I can't imagine how people who do this successfully get past their own biases (ie the tester knowing I had Lyme and this influencing the results he felt, for instance).
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
hardynaka
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8099
posted
Maria, anyone can make the courses and become an ART 'certificated' expert, let's say so. There are practioners and practioners, as there are different medical doctors.
Would you trust all doctors in this planet because they have a diploma? Nope.
Would I trust all ART practioners because they got a certification? Nope, I wouldn't.
My first muscle test was done by a medical doctor many many years ago. I just didn't believe it, it couldn't be true, I felt.
Second muscle test was for my little daughter with another medical doctor, I was also not a believer at all, but gave her the homeopathics he tested for her. They seemed to help a bit indeed, but didn't convince me thoroughly.
Third one was after lyme disease, my ART practioners. That convinced me of MY practioners!
One of the first ART 'laws', if I read it well, is that "lab tests have priority over kinesiology". Muscle tests will only come to help where there's no other lab tests around or when you need something to be decided fast.
If a lab test say something, muscle test can't contradict it, the practioner has to drop the wrong kinesiological answer and not use it. At least, that's what's clearly stated in one of the booklets I have here.
I have gone to my first appointment in doubt whether this thing would work for me. But not blocking, just in doubt, as it's normal. After having seen so many doctors, I can't just trust medical field practioners at once. I would trust more an unknown taxi driver than an unknown medical doctor.
Slowly, with the results, I started to trust the method and my practioners. But it didn't happen in one visit, and it was something that grew slowly. I had done lots of things by myself paralllel to get better. But I feel they did help me when I most needed.
In my case, I didn't 'trust' my practioners beforehand. It's impossible for me, having had the experiences I had before.
So even not 'trusting', it worked in my case. It's not fast though, as if I understand well, they're trying to fix our ANS and not treating lyme disease exactly. Lyme disease is one of the 'symptoms' of a defectuous ANS.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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hiker53
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 6046
posted
Gigi--Slight Correction. The woman who does applied kinesiology with me does look for correct regulation first.
What is interesting is that for the past few years she has said I still have lyme. After seveal trips to see Dr. C in Denton for laser therapy she now says I do not have lyme and she had no clue I had been to see him. However, I won't believe it until all my symptoms are gone.
And yes, I have been tested for heavy metals and they have been worked on. No amalgams, no mercury, but had some aluminum, cadmium etc.
She and Dr. C agree my thyroid medicine doesn't work and she says I don't have a thyroid problem which has been confirmed by blood tests.
In April she suggested I use alpho lipoic acid and it tested well, so I used it. In June Dr. C said it wasn't working. In late June this woman suggested I use it for my adrenals and then when she tested it on me, she said it wouldn't work.
So, although I am skeptical of any kind of muscle testing, be it ART or applied kinesiology, I cannot totally discount it.
I think God can use different modalalities to diagnose and heal. Hiker
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 8885 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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GiGi
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Member # 259
posted
Hiker, if you tested for ALA, your liver probably was ready for it. It does help the excretion of glutathione-bound toxic metals. This is how the liver exretes metals -- they are bound to glutathione and that's the way they come out in the biliary treet. Alpha Lipoic Acid is a great co-factor with that.
But Alpha Lipoic Acid does not detox the brain. Per dr. K. it has never done anything helpf to the brain, as people are saying. People mistake it because when they clear out the liver and they feel better, they figure "my brain feels better, therefore ALA must be doing something to the brain". It does indirectly, but not directly.
If you want to clean out your brain, cilantro, goat whey and a few others work. The things that reliably detox the brain are all natural things. The cilantro tincture rubbed in wrist and ankles and a couple of drops around the neck/spine area work. Cilantro works for aluminum. But usually if you have alu, you have mercury. It shows up later if that's the case.
Cilantro tea - up to ten drops in a cup of hot water before going to bed works. Start with a couple drops. And have mop-up agents ready. Be sure you have a very healthy mineral base and be sure to add the good ones back in, because the good absorbable minerals are also removed with some of the detoxers. So you need to put them back in.
So testing "yes" does not mean the testing was wrong or invalid testing = Your body/liver wanted it at that time.
Our body knows what it needs -
Take care.
[ 17. July 2007, 10:46 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
Well now that I'm convinced. Just how much will one of these sessions set me back?
Initial visits are usually the highest...=?
Maintenance visits on average=?
Average number of visits=?
Anyone care to divulge this information please?
Is there a differance between geographical locations...like...is it on average more or less expensive say in New England area than it is in say South Western or South Eastern areas?
GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
The charge is the cost of an office visit. Some charge more, some charge less. An MD charges more per hour than a naturopath.
And the information I contributed in this thread was free.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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lymemomtooo
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Member # 5396
posted
I am not on equal par with some of you that are into this intellectual debate so excuse my interruption...But I am not one to disregard anything that might help some that I can not understand or prove.
Two things help me with this..I had a severe sunburn as a young child..Probably 10 or so. No meds or Dr's meds were helping. I was naked on the wood floor with the fan blowing on high toward me.
Way back in our family, there was an American Indian. From there each generation, someone was given the secret to some hands on therapy which the family calls "pow-wowing". The current member was asked to help to heal me. I only recall that she put her hands on me and said some things and within hours, I was better and I think all healed without even peeling skin. I do remember that I didn't want it done and thought it would not work.
I decided that night that I did not know why it worked but it was better. If it was mind over matter, I would still have been in a lot of pain because I did not believe in it. So something weird happened.
The same is true for muscle testing. When my daughter would go to see her therapist, she attempted to do some of this on my daughter. The therapist was just learning to do some related things and then asked me to try. I again was a non-believer, even though I had read all of Gigi's info. So I tried to overcome the effects of the testing and to my disbelief, I was helpless and weak with some of the things that were mentioned in the test.
I was a pe teacher so know how to get muscles to perform, well, not well, if you see my current state of fitness, but neverless, I am a bit more knowledgeable than most. Still, I could not lift my arm with portions of the test.
So again, I must admit, I am forced to agree that there are things that I do not understand, and never will, but something is happening.
I have also listened to much of Gigi's info and a lecture by Dr. K and after repeated reading and listening, it makes more sense. One thing Gigi used to say is that the ailments or toxins, can be better explained if you consider an onion. Somethings do not appear to be problems until you peel a layer away.
I think Dr. K said that many with heavy metals do not have positive tests. Where have we heard this before?.. But after other issues are addressed and then one tries to re-test, they may positive. He also says that other infections and even emotional issues must be addressed before you can go to some of the deeper layers of healing.
Not sure this helps anyone but there may be many paths to better health. lmt
Posts: 2360 | From SE PA | Registered: Mar 2004
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bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
Good kinesiology experience today.
I took all my supps to my kinesiologist, and got very similar results from him as I was getting on my own.
(I wasn't watching which ones he was testing for, so I wasn't giving hints or something.)
Some of the dosage amounts were a little different, but the choice of remedies was the same.
Although I want to take Cat's Claw and Japanese Knotweed, I continually test negative for both, on my own, and at the office.
It takes some practice. I have confindence in the usefulness of this approach, and I think anyone who is inclined can learn how to do it well.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Well, here's my own muscle testing report. As it turns out my herbalist (who shares an office space with my LLMDs)and I got into a discussion about muscle testing. She knows of my skepticism, and in fact is skeptical herself of its validity, but since many patients request it, she underwent some training. I told her I'd be open to trying it, after she informed me it was just a "tool" that may nor may not work - she was very down to earth about it.
So here's how it went. She want back to her supply area and formulary and picked up a dozen or so bottles of supplements. Upon returning to the office she had me stand up and say out loud something that was true to me. I said "I am skeptical about this test" with a grin, and she laughed, but suggested we try something a bit more positive, which was "I am (my name here) and I'm alive". She then had me extend my arm and try to push down on it.
Following this, she had me hold a supplement who's name I couldn't see in my other hand, and say out loud "Is this good for me?" and then try to push on my arm again. This was repeated for every supplement she had.
At the end, she told me that she didn't get any data from muscle testing on me. My arm didn't feel weak while carrying any particular supplement or anything.
So this is simply a tool, that doesn't work on everyone. Not some miracle diagnostic procedure. And I think it is very important for providers to be honest about this.
I'm still a bit skeptical that the whole thing isn't a hoax, or simply a "gamble", but at least I had an honest practitioner who told me it didn't work, rather than make up some sensitivities and charge me $$$.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Sometimes it's the tester themselves. my ND told me its very important for practitioners to be clean themselves, both emotionally and physically. She made sure to have ALL toxic fillings, etc removed. With all the people I have worked with over the years have found many healers have problems themselves which is why they went into healing and their probs haven't been entirely corrected, ie cavitations, silver fillings still in mouth, gold fillings interacting with silver, etc. So the testing results may not always be good. My ND always checks her own polarity before testing each person and corrects it first if needed.
Posts: 116 | From Plano, Texas, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Truthfinder
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posted
Good points, Sue and Blackstone.
Sometimes the practitioner is the problem and sometimes it is the client. In my case, I am the problem and not the practitioner.
Apparently, I have some kind of reversed polarity. In short, this causes false readings.
The last practitioner I consulted with found that my arm will stay strong with questions that will make the general population weak - always. She said that I am `forcing' my body to be strong and to do things that it shouldn't.
The first practitioner I saw was so confused by my reactions that he actually called me to come to his office when another, more experienced practitioner came to town to visit him. That's when I found out about the polarity problem.
I suspect that this polarity problem has much to do with being ill for so long (perhaps since I was a child).
I don't think we realize just how `deranged' our systems can become with chronic illness.
(BTW, I have learned a few tips to help with this polarity issue, at least temporarily, but now have no practitioner to work with.)
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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hardynaka
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posted
Most lyme sufferers are blocked, they have blocked regulations. Nothing will work if your regulation is blocked.
So first thing to ask, in my opinion, would be 'is the patients' regulation open?' 'Is it blocked?'. If you get same answers (either strong or weak responses, or mixed answers if you keep asking), that's when NOT to use muscle tests unless the practioner knows what to do to open it again.
That's what I do all the time. You can start a session open and get blocked after too. Regulation may vary during the day.
If you got a key in your pocket, metal glasses or a watch (or all these), in my experience, you get blocked. If you're close to a computer, or strong EMF, you can get blocked.
If your practioner is blocked, I guess, there's no way to work on the patient either.
My practioner tests hundreds of substances on me everytime I go there, not a couple... If he tests amalgams, he can't have amalgams himself, or he may get wrong responses.
It's not a simple thing. I guess it's simple if you're healthy, but once you fall sick, one of the reasons for having fallen sick COULD be that your autonomic nervous system is not working (which I believe is often). At least, it's often the case in lyme disease, the ANS is not working well, and so one's immune system, that's one of the main reasons the patient fall sick and get cronic while others fall sick but get better after short treatment.
Many lyme sufferers suffer from disautomia, right? No way to test these people unless by an experienced guy who knows how to 'unblock' these patients.
During my re-infection, I had WEEKS of being blocked THE WHOLE DAY, not a single minute open. During these times, I had weak muscles, I couldn't get a SINGLE response from own muscle tests. So I didn't try to test!
Borrelia, babesia and bartonella were blocking me, according to my ART practioner AND to my doctor. If you're rarely blocked, it's already a sign that your ANS is not too bad, in my opinion. Not the case of most cronic lyme sufferers, unfortunately.
Once the load of these pathogens fell, I came back to my previous state, previous to bite, unblocked regulation. I had already unblocked regulation for months before reinfection, as I'm treating my ANS disfunctions for more than a year with these ART practioners.
Another thing that easily blocks regulation: heavy metals. Even dr. Bur. is talking openly that he thinks most lyme sufferers suffer from metal poisoning. Metal detox lasts months, even years.
That's why I feel this kinesiology works well for healthier guys, but not much for very sick people (specially lyme), unless you find the right practioner that unblocks you.
The only method for that that I know is ART. But I believe there are other practioners with other backgrounds able to unblock very sick patients too, the problem is where to find these guys!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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northstar
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Member # 7911
posted
I have read that the "question" has to be issued as a statement.
A true / false statement.
So, instead of asking whether it is good or not, one states it: (blank is good),
Now, the above also requires fixing.
The adjective "good" can have too many meanings, and needs to be defined within the statement.
So, my kinesiologist states "beneficial", and also declares addressing the body, not the mind, emotion, spirit. The kinesiologist also tests "tolerated" as a true/false statement addressing the body.
A few times I have crossed, also. However, I attributed that to goofing around with KMT contact placement.
There is a technique to help "uncross". See Donna Eden's work (books), or try to google "cross crawl", or there are EFT techniques, where arms, and legs are cross in a certain position, and deep breathing is done.
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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Truthfinder
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posted
Great posts, Selma and Northstar.
Seems like it is also important to qualify whether a supplement, food, treatment, etc. is beneficial for you RIGHT NOW. And if not, then perhaps additional questions to figue out why.... sometimes a substance won't test well because of something else you are already doing or taking.
Selma and Gigi have pointed this out many times. And all these elements of testing are key to getting accurate answers.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Blackstone, It's nice that you described your being tested. I am sure you have heard my talking about "department store muscle testing". .
The testing you described is ``department store muscle testing'' as Dr. K. calls is. Exactly this type of testing is why people are leery and then question all of muscle testing.
It is much too complicated to describe all the fine details of good muscle testing and even more so trying to describe ART.
Someone said "the arm was pulled down". I forget who. The arm is never simply pulled down. Fine muscle testing, if not done with a third arm (another person between the tester and the testee). Muscle testing takes some calibrating the different strength between the two people (or three) to avoid that one person overpowers the other with strength. A big man as a doctor and a little girl like me - have to find the appropriate point of pressure first vs. resistance first. The arm is simply at a comfortable angle (45 degrees ) and no more than five fingers press slightly above the wrist area of the testee. Or the in between person. Surrogate is not the correct word. Can't think of the correct one.
As a rule, a sick person cannot be tested without a third person in the middle. It is done usually lying down. The middle person offers one arm to the tester for calibrating, etc.; with the middle person's other hand touching a spot on the body of the person being tested, the patient.
Patients, especially in the initial stages are too ill to have a normal arm. Often they have shoulder problems, or pains, or no strength at all to where it is totally impossible to do the testing right
There are many ways to unblock a blocked Autonomic Nervous System and this is not the place to go into it. But a blocked person or "switched" person has to be unblocked and/or unswitched before testing is possible. When a person is "switched," there are problems in communication between different parts of the brain. Switching is usually caused by a scar from an injury or surgery anywhere on the body or by a "sick" tooth.
Supplements or medicines should be tested dose dependent. There are usually no spoken words except when the tester presses, so say ``resist'' alerting the testee to get ready to resist. Testing with the whole container would certainly in many instances kill a patient and of course the body would react to that effect when tested -- it would say nooooooo. By using the whole container when testing, you might lose out on a great medicine. Only the dose is tested. It is later followed with the Yin mudra which will then indicate how large or small the dose should be.
Same with allergic reactions to medicines, food, supplements. It is tested specifically to distinguish between allergic reaction (there are at least 4 types of allergic reactions that are important to know) by pressing the vagus nerve. Or the body just gives a plain ``no'' reaction meaning that this med would not contribute anything.
The Synergistic testing is done in ART: When two items are testing good, it still doesn't mean that they are beneficial when you put them in the same''soup'' You might be testing great for lemons. And you might be testing great for goat milk. But that does not mean that when you put the lemon in the goat milk you are going to have a great meal.
Say someone is on insulin and has pneumonia and needs a med. Test them both together and the antibiotic tests absolutely terrible in conjunction with the insulin. Separately they test well. The patient needs the antibiotic - but needs to take them far enough apart.
Muscle testing cuts through all that to a large degree and at least tells against a backdrop of whatever else the patient is doing that the doctor doesn't know about ( what are their eating and drinking and drug habits, their sleeping habits and exposures at home) --- Against that backdrop, the medications are measured.
What works againt that backdrop? Their makeup, shampoo, toothpaste... The patient may be left with two things. But in two weeks, there is a clearing up, a lightness. Then of course they can be tested again and it may be that 2 or 3 test well again. And it is discovered that, yes, they are good for you, but at much lower doses. It usually is found that they should be taken like on a rotation diet. Every 4 days take one of them, rather than taking them every day. That is usually what is decided.
So when you are taking 10 supplements, and only two test good, was the cumulative effect of taking them all making you worse or OK? Usually the entire program is making you worse, but it doesn't mean that that was the case yesterday. Sometimes these medications are like burned out batteries that served a very good service for a while and fixed something. Then your body picked up and started running on its own, and doesn't want it anymore.
And then there is the mental testing. You test bad for a food which you really need, but it triggers a memory of a bad situation at some time in your life. This unresolved emotional conflict is then treated, often right then and there, and you will be able to consume this food again.
I described the "Seven Factors" above in another post and that is only a fraction of ART. A skilled practitioner who has learned this method over a period of months and sometimes years can do all seven factors in a relatively brief period of time. Usually one hour goes a long way. If scars are treated right then and there, it might take a few extra minutes. If the emotional conflict is treated, it might take a bit extra time.
The materials are also tested easily as to whether they are okay, not okay, and not okay because of an allergic reaction. Thee are several different allergic reactions, a biochemical allergy, an emotional allergy (you think you are allergic), etc. etc. If the latter is the case, after treating the allergy right then and there followed up with certain instructions for home, you may be able to eat the food again after that.
To get a really true picture of the ill person, this is really the method that tells most. To really explain it, it would take many pages. It is very difficult to explain in so many words. So pardon me when it gets a bit confusing sometimes.
Take care.
P.S. Selma is making a valiant effort describing ART! Wonderful. But remember, self testing is not ART, yet it serves a good purpose if you can trust yourself. It looks, Selma, from your description that you are doing BORT (Bi-Digital O-Ring Testing) a la Dr. Omura, very respected MD in New York. That is where it originated and it is used by thousands of doctors in Japan. I have watched some doctors do it and it looks merely like a behind the scene finger-flicking! I haven't mastered it yet. Maybe some day.
[ 19. July 2007, 12:40 PM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Well, here's my own muscle testing report. As it turns out my herbalist (who shares an office space with my LLMDs)and I got into a discussion about muscle testing. She knows of my skepticism, and in fact is skeptical herself of its validity, but since many patients request it, she underwent some training. I told her I'd be open to trying it, after she informed me it was just a "tool" that may nor may not work - she was very down to earth about it.
So here's how it went. She want back to her supply area and formulary and picked up a dozen or so bottles of supplements. Upon returning to the office she had me stand up and say out loud something that was true to me. I said "I am skeptical about this test" with a grin, and she laughed, but suggested we try something a bit more positive, which was "I am (my name here) and I'm alive". She then had me extend my arm and try to push down on it.
Following this, she had me hold a supplement who's name I couldn't see in my other hand, and say out loud "Is this good for me?" and then try to push on my arm again. This was repeated for every supplement she had.
At the end, she told me that she didn't get any data from muscle testing on me. My arm didn't feel weak while carrying any particular supplement or anything.
So this is simply a tool, that doesn't work on everyone. Not some miracle diagnostic procedure. And I think it is very important for providers to be honest about this.
I'm still a bit skeptical that the whole thing isn't a hoax, or simply a "gamble", but at least I had an honest practitioner who told me it didn't work, rather than make up some sensitivities and charge me $$$.
I GUARANTEE it WILL work. IF NOT, there is really something wrong with the practitioner OR with what they are doing.
HOLDING a BOTTLE can and WILL block the results. WAS it a glass bottle or a plastic bottle?
Try an opened pack of cigarettes. I did this way back in 1980 give or take a year, and I certainly was no practitioner. I had seen it done as a novelty on TV, and tried it on smokers and none smokers and the results ALWAYS came out the same. Cigarettes were no good for any of them.
I knew of no name for it, but I saw what it did, and knew it could be used with foods etc., but never tried it.
But when Selma brought up ART and Kinsieology, etc., I was a sort of skeptic also on some of those things, but WHO am I to say?
You MUST Study, study, study no matter WHAT you get into, in order to get good at it. For some it is easier than others. Some NEVER get good at something, others can be good at ALMOST everything they try. Some do have natural abilities. But those abilities NEED to be developed, trained and strengthened in order to be really GOOD at whatever it is you are working on.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Whether or not ART or Bi-Digital O-Ring Test (BDORT) will be CONFIRMED/PROVEN as to being a legitimate diagnostic testing method in the future ...
right now they are not an "accepted" diagnostic tool by "mainstream medicine".
What concerns me most is this:
I believe training "just anyone" who is interested in learning how to do ART (whether or not they have formal medical training in addition) may have potential life-threatening consequences for the subject.
What this does is put a DIAGNOSTIC tool in the hands of someone who does NOT understand or have knowledge of the complexity of the human body.
And goodness knows...even doctors (with training!) themselves make a ton of diagnostic mistakes!
Let me give you an example of why I feel not "just anyone" should practice these diagnostic techniques on another.
I have a good close friend who believes in "body talk" and goes to a practitioner. The practitioner is NOT a MD. This practitioner told my friend (who was holding the bottle of her anti-depressant medicine) that this anti-depressant was not good for her.
Consequently this friend went off the drug and did not go on another.
Has she become more depressed?
Yup...and stressed...blood pressure soared...additional (BP) drugs had to be added by her regular doctor...
Thank goodness (!) the depression (neurotransmitter and hormonal imbalance) didn't progress to the degree it could have and led to her committing suicide.
This friend is very overweight. This is one example of an addictive personality which has roots in our emotional as well as physical state of health.
Addictions are very related to dopamine levels...for starters. Read the July 5,2007 issue of Time magazine on this.
Our hormones and our neurotransmitters "communicate" between one another. Stress...adrenal glands kick in and signal the hypothalamus and pituitary...(HPA axis)
It is a very complex system!
What this non-medically trained practitioner did was to do a simple test and suggest that a particular drug was bad for my friend who then went off of a drug that may have been in reality helping her in a very complex way.
In the WRONG hands, these diagnostic tools can be potentially very harmful.
IMO, anyone who "trains" unprofessionals at seminars to use this technique is encouraging them to practice medicine without a license.
If you are considering this alternative diagnostic test (which supposedly indicates a sympathetic and parasympathetic imbalance in the nervous system), know upfront that these tests are not "recognized" by many professionals despite U.S. patents on these types of diagnostic tools.
Here is one link to a test Dr. Yoshiaki Omura promotes, the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test (BDORT) which he developed to help you to understand what it is.
While I DO believe in "energy fields" and to a degree in how to restore energy via many methods, I feel in the WRONG HANDS these diagnostic tools can be very potentially dangerous.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Marnie,
No, of course not, mainstream medicine would run into a huge problem: If they were able to manage to accept kinesiology , they might have to face the reality that very few pharma drugs test positive on a sick patient. The lists of side effects on most of them are too long already.
I do not consider the parents of autistic or very ill children ``just anyone''. By the time they reach the stage to want to learn kinesiology or ART they know more about autism than most medical doctors who have not been able to give them any help.
Many of these parents are professional people, some are plain caring people from the farm. But smart enough to start Action groups and testify before Congress, standing up and lecturing in front of large groups with gusto telling how they have learned to manage their lives. I have met some of them. They are moving little mountains and are making great progress. Any of these people are intelligent and experienced enough to know when they have to head for the ER with their child and when they just need to decide which of the meds/remedies/nutrients they have will at a certain moment be the one to help stop the stimming of their child!!!!!! So it can calm down.
I have seen these ``just anyone'' people recently at a four day seminar -- Autism Recovery: A practical Resource-oriented Workshop for Concerned Parents and Practitioners. The opening words were: Although we have experienced a sharp rise in neuron-developmental disorders, in recent years - Autism, Asperger's and other related illnesses on the ``spectrum'' have become, to a large degree, treatable... especially when appropriate interventions are started early. In this 3-day workshop, we will focus on practical and simple solutions, guide the attendees toward the most important resources and work towards a streamlined protocol of assessment tools, self-help methods and therapeutic options. Give me a break, Marnie, ``just anyone''.
Besides parents and children, the majority of the attendees coming to learn were medical doctors, dentists DO's, naturopaths, chiropractors, nurses, long-standing patients taking advantage of being able to learn more to help themselves, etc, and students who are studying to enter the medical field, as well as people/patients who have discovered that this is what might be their future destiny. They are not ``unprofessionals'' as you call them - How would you describe an unprofessional - what is that anyway? I am a homemaker with a past profession - am I an ``unprofessional''?
What is it really that you are trying to say? Training an unprofessional? And who are these'' professionals that don't recognize these alternative diagnostic tests?'' My PCP who was totally helpless when I got sick; or Scott's 40 doctors who were clueless; but all ready to take the check? Marnie, give me a break.
Marnie, Yoshiaki Omura, MD is not promoting a test. The test has been learned around the world by many - they come to his annual meetings, once a year, where he discloses some of his newest discoveries. Dr. K. won't miss it - they have been mentors to each other for many years. A few years ago, in the mid-nineties, Dr. Omura single-handedly discovered Cilantro, also known as Chinese Parsley, which is at this moment still the only ``medicine'' that crosses the blood-brain barrier and mobilizes the most horribly disabling heavy metals out of our brains. Approx. 200,000 medical doctors in Japan use BORT in their practice.
Anyone training in ART will need months of practicing. Anyone I know who is agreeable to taking part in this knows that they are'' practicing'' and they can take part in the practice or not take part in the practice. I am certain there is agreement on this between the parties. This is not a treatment, or an invasive maneuver, nobody gets hurt, and it may just lead to a decision one way or the other for further action. I have practiced it many times with many physicians, practicing students, with all sorts of ``just anybody's''.
Sorry for your friend, Marnie - God gave us all a brain to use, yet often we make a wrong decision. `` Wrong hands,''who is to decide? There are ``Wrong Hands'' in any profession, from car mechanic to the guy called orthopedic physician, belonging to every medical association in the world, who set my broken heel so bad that it had to be done a second time. No fun. ``Wrong Hands.'' Marnie, please give me a break.
Let's leave it at --- ART is here to stay. Dr. K. is here to stay. Dr. Omura is here to stay. Nogier's is here to stay. Kirlian is here to stay. Arms Length Testing is here to stay. The many that practice sound kinesiology, such as Dr. L.C. are here to stay. Kinesiology is here to stay.
And I am here to stay - as long as I am helping at least one person to find some little nugget they can use to help themselves. Please do not criticize a treatment modality if you do not even understand the very basics of it.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
Self diagnosing or diagnosing others without a substantial medical knowlege base is, IMO, very risky.
ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance.
Medicine was the first of the professions to require licensure. State laws specific to the licensure of medicine outlined the activities of "diagnosis" and "treatment" of human conditions strictly within the domain of medicine.
Any individual who professed to diagnose or treat as part of the profession could therefore be charged with "practicing medicine without a license."
There are laws about touching another person.
********
Any comments regarding a medical diagnosis by alternative providers who are not licensed to diagnose and treat would constitute practicing medicine without a license.
In addition, their training and background may not provide them with the requisite knowledge to make appropriate referrals.
Thus alternative providers may be obligated to inform patients that they need to seek medical attention, but they should
posted
So, Marnie, glad GiGi cleared up to me, that you are a woman, I always thought you were a man.
Serious.
Going to a MD is risky at best.
Then we have to decipher, WHAT medical knowledge?
AND what about the STATE LAWS? WHO makes up these so called LAWS? Politicians? Lawyers? Doctors? Judges? Scientists? WHO? WHO has the total knowledge of mankinds bodies and REAL needs to be able to do that? WHO?
It is like plumbing. WHO makes up the licensure of plumbing?
Do you think NOBODY else has any God given brains or common sense? Give me a break. There is no better teacher than experience, period.
THAT is why medical doctors keep "practicing". Trouble is, they make ME pay for their practicing on ME! Heck I can practice on ME for nothing. WHY pay someone to do it?
Yes, there are laws about touching another person, and there are laws about NOT touching another person, IF it could help.
Come to think of it, there are stupid laws about just about everything. AND because there are so many "stupid" laws, they keep haveing to change them. Don't they? THAT is because mankind has proven for thousands of years that he cannot rule himself.
Jim ###
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
Self diagnosing or diagnosing others without a substantial medical knowlege base is, IMO, very risky.
ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance.
Medicine was the first of the professions to require licensure. State laws specific to the licensure of medicine outlined the activities of "diagnosis" and "treatment" of human conditions strictly within the domain of medicine.
Any individual who professed to diagnose or treat as part of the profession could therefore be charged with "practicing medicine without a license."
There are laws about touching another person.
********
Any comments regarding a medical diagnosis by alternative providers who are not licensed to diagnose and treat would constitute practicing medicine without a license.
In addition, their training and background may not provide them with the requisite knowledge to make appropriate referrals.
Thus alternative providers may be obligated to inform patients that they need to seek medical attention, but they should
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
You and others have voiced this opinion and that is fine, it is your opinion. I have been seeing an herbalist who is a talented muscle tester and have done my own muscle testing for over 15 years.
If I had followed the M.D.'s etc.. of this world, I'd be in the same condition or worse as my poor sister, brother and mother. They've all been sick for a much shorter period of time than I and my sister is bedridden and the others are extremely ill.
I have been able to help my brother with muscle testing whereas the doctors have given up on him. Imagine their surprise when his extremely elevated liver enzymes returned to normal after years of being high and his brittle diabetes is normal enough to make it so that he does not need to worry about losing the sight in his eye. He was recently removed from the surgery list at the VA, much to the surprise of his doctor. His eye is healing itself now that his blood sugars are normal. The proof is in the pudding.
His "spontaneous" healings have raised more than a few eyebrows at the VA! Even the nurse wanted specific details of what was done so that she could help her daughter.
Muscle testing has helped me tremendously to live with this beast of an illness and to keep my quality of life such that I actually want to keep living.
To each his own. I don't beleive it is for everyone or that everyone is good at it. It also cannot solve all of my problems and it is not 100% accurate but I thank god that I've been given the tool of muscle testng.
It has saved my sanity and my husband and I believe it literally saved his life. He has a degree in electrical engineering and I in computer science and while we value science and logic, we are pragmatic. Whatever works!!! Terry
[ 21. July 2007, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
I can't keep quiet on this one:
Marnie posted -- "ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance."
We know that literally in any chronically ill person the autonomics are out of balance. That's what makes us ill. Body has lost control of many functions necessary. There is no need to diagnose that.
ART diagnoses and selects the medium (therapy, medicines, homeopathics, nutrients, etc. and treats -- all in one --layer after layer of the body, and emotional body. Whatever shows up as needing to be treated next, is treated. If the liver is in distress, it is treated: at the same time the cause that stresses the liver in the first place is addressed, medicine selected, etc.
If a scar on the leg, on or near the gallbladder meridian stresses the gallbladder, easily recognized with ART, the scar is treated.
Everything that the body calls attention to with ART, as a foci, a stressed organ or body area, is treated -- and the medicine selected at the same time. Any emotional conflict causing the stress to any part of the body is usually discovered and treated, usually right away during the session.
When a wisdom tooth or old wisdom tooth site is found to be a disturbed area, it is addressed - often the organ that is affected is the heart. That is addressed. (Tooth and organ connection established long ago in Chinese Medicine. I posted the chart once or twice. (Google it if interested).
Marnie, I don't think I have ever heard a more disturbing opinion about kinesiology from an educated person than yours. But I have no interest in responding. In a way, it just makes me sad.
I merely come back here to clarify for others if I think it is important enough.
Anyway, it's my bedtime now.
Take care.
P.S. TerryK, I am happy that you have mastered as much as you have. That is wonderful! and I know what a good feeling this "tool" is. It helped me/us over many dips and valleys.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
1. ART is not yet "accepted" by "traditional" medicine. I am NOT saying it might not work. I am saying it is not "accepted" by the medical establishment and SOME alternative practitioners don't follow the "rules" which then gives those professions a "bad name".
2. ART IS a diagnostic tool as you stated. And in order for someone to diagnose another they must have some sort of medical formal training or they risk being charged with practicing medicine without a license.
3. IF someone is doing ART and does NOT have formal medical training and any kind of "licensure" - even IF that person is "practicing" under a "doctor" he/she can be convicted of practicing medicine without a license and furthermore that doctor can be charged with "aiding and abbetting".
The vast majority of lyme patient can NOT afford the MULTIPLE treatments you suggest.
My goal has always been to find the cheapest and the fastest cure for lyme FOR THE MASSES.
What is your goal?
[ 15. August 2007, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
marnie -
you are right about the cost of lyme treatment, natural or otherwise. it is prohibitive. the only reason i was able to see an ART practitioner and take the large amount of herbs and supplements and energy treatments that helped me get well was because i have a rich grandfather on my father's side who, despite the fact that he didn't believe i had lyme (no one in my family believed i was physically ill), paid for my treatment. i don't understand it, but i am eternally, forever grateful. i have very little money of my own, and my mother doesn't have any extra money to spare - so without his help, i would still be gravely ill.
most people are not so lucky. i am acutely aware of this.
so, i think it's AWESOME that you're researching lowcost alternatives - it is so very badly needed. that is why i think it's imperative that your medical posts be translatable to lay people, AND to those who need that info the most - people with severe neurological lyme disease.
GiGi of course can answer for herself, but i know that her only motivation is to help people. she has a wealth of information and a wealth of personal experience with this illness to back it up. she has never claimed that all the treatments and modalities she recommends are cheap - although i do know that she has recommended low-cost alternatives for people who can't afford the more expensive options.
posted
I never bother reading about ART testing as I did look into it once a while ago and my opinion is that it is a belief, nothing scientific behind it whatsoever. But the number of posts in this thread caught my attention, so I thought I would just chime in to give MY opinion about it.
I have not read the thread so maybe someone else has voiced the same opinion.
I think people who diagnose through ART make educated guesses re what is ailing you and press harder or softer on your arm and the they educate-guess again in the same way re treatment.
When people do it to themselves they do the same.
I also think that people who go to practitioners who use ART, they are willingly (if not knowingly) going in the direction that is suggested to them. We all SO want to get better!!
Please don't throw stones at me. This is just what I think. I am not pro or anti anything as a matter of principle, I use a lot of herbal things, supps etc but holding a bottle of aspirin in my hand to see "if it's good for me"...No go!
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Nell,
"Please don't throw stones at me. This is just what I think. I am not pro or anti anything as a matter of principle, I use a lot of herbal things, supps etc but holding a bottle of aspirin in my hand to see "if it's good for me"...No go!"
What you are describing, Nellis, is neither ART nor Kinesiology. And now I got to run because I am attending a three day seminar on Neural Therapy where ART and Lyme and LED and everything that is worthwhile talking about comes up and is covered in detail for medical professionals and some ex-Lymies and some chronically ill who are learning to help themselves.
I described what a first session in ART generally looks like (The Seven Factors), and now I have to run because I am attending a three day seminar where Neural Therapy is taught, which usually covers some treatment of chronic disease, from shoulder pains to Lyme Disease and toxic teeth. I will let you know if I learn anything new.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
Here is a copy of my previous post from above -- that's what a first exam utilizing muscle testing/ART looks like:
Selma explained Blocked Regulation of the Autonomic Nervous System as it relates to ART. In ART, it is necessary that the regulation be open=unblocked so that the body can reveal the truth with muscle strength or weakness. Both can be "good or bad".
There is no extensive discussion on history or medical reports,except history of surgeries (for scars), dental work, and "when did it start?" (It often starts following a dental intervention, stress event, breakup, etc.)
The patient is ART tested following a brief physical exam, usually on the first visit, for the seven issues that are commonly responsible for blocked regulation and chronic illness:
Factor #1 Toxins: Heavy metals, xenobiotics, solvents and biotoxins from microorganisms (Lyme and co-infections, mycoplasma, chlamydia, viruses, fungi, mold, etc.)
Factor #3: Structural Problems: TMD/Malocclusion, bridge crossing the midline, vertebral and cranial subluxation, etc.
Factor #4: Energetic Perturbances: Dysfunctional scars, ganglia, acupuncture meridians and points. Blocked chakras, electrogalvanism, etc.
Factor #5 : Food Intolerances:
Factor #6: Geopathic Stress
Factor #7: Unresolved psycho-emotional conflict or trauma(treatment is usually brief and effective)
The patient's treatment starts already with the testing. The materials/medicines/abx/remedies are tested. Whichever tests best and unblocks the Autonomic regulation is recommended and used. The patient might have to see a biological dentist next. Or might have to take some corrective steps to change sleeping location (Move the bed a foot to the R or L, or more) Next visit all is tested again or different meds are tested, with emphasis on open regulation, and the best chosen. Layer by layer.
Testing for blocked regulation is the first test performed in ART. It assures that the system itself can disclose the information needed to change itself. Most other muscle testing methods do not consider this fact. Applied Kinesiology also does not test for blocked regulation.
This is ART in brief. Trust and cooperation is necessary. It is performed with the greatest of care by a good practitioner. It's without a doubt the best thing I ran across.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
If you want to learn ART...that's one thing. If you PRACTICE ART and other "alternative therapies" on others even WITH a medical/other training...that's quite another thing...as it has gotten more than one in serious legal trouble.
If you want to see a PICTURE of the 5 levels of healing and how they are diagnosed and treated, go here:
posted
It all depends on which state you are in and how open the State's MA is. For example here in Texas my MD cannot do EAV/EDS and Kinesiology, but accepts it and approves of using a ND as part of my integrative care. He says his license would be taken away if using non approved testing methods because not the standard of care / diagnostic methods in Texas. He can use only diagnostic methods accepted by the TMA and let other practitioners who are qualified, ie Med Tech, ND, DC, etc. to operate such equipment, take the reading information and discuss it.
Posts: 116 | From Plano, Texas, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I knew a guy named Arthur who practiced ART. The sign outside his office said "Art who practices the art of ART".
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northstar
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Member # 7911
posted
"I knew a guy named Arthur who practiced ART. The sign outside his office said "Art who practices the art of ART".
'artie 'artie 'ar 'ar, matie ! ,
N/
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
To put you all at ease, most people come for ART with juicy multiple diagnoses, many, multiple, in writing, from ALS to Parkinsons, to MS, on stretchers and wheelchairs, and kids that swing on the office chandelier ----- prior treaments unsuccessful, the waiting room always crowned by the nasty mercury-toxic Lymie who can't hold their temper. Excuse - Lyme rage. There is not a single patient that is not encouraged to get objective lab testing besides what ART reveals.
So hold your horses. No crimes committed. Some just need to get well, for the sake of us all, and if it needs ART or Kinesiology or laying- on-of-hands to finally bring this to bear, so be it. I don't mind if you call it woo-doo. It works.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
OK Marnie,
In answer to your initial query.
After reading a lot on this thread I believe AK and whatever else this thread may have produced, pertaining to interpreting kinetic energy
released by the body to specific muscles in the body, for the purpose of determining the course of treatment a medical practicioner should
attempt, merely by reading the serendipitous outward movements of certain muscles, is, IMHO, a hoax and no better than guessing.
Let me, take this opportunity to inform those that are mentally incapacitated due to Lyme or any previously discussed tickborne illness, including co-infections.
Those ill individuals that frequent this website in an attempt to ascertain answers to their many questions.
Those who may have happened onto this thread to take notice of this debate.
I implore all the ill,confused, hurting and possibly, simply naive and overly trustful.
Please,try and make their own decisions as to the validity of all that has transpired in this thread.
Keeping in mind those who contributed to this thread on the "Pro" side as well as the "Con".
Remember also, anyone who would make a living, employing the "ART" of the "CON-GAME" is relying on the many unknowns of this disease.
In as much as the term CON-GAME is derived from the term CONFIDENCE GAME and is learned and practiced, as any legitimate profession would,
until, the successful practitioners, can be referred to as artisans of this "GAME".
The art of instilling confidence in the victims("Marks"), of the game is a necessary pre-requisite in attaining any substantial success.
A great deal of time and patience is exhibited by the professional con-artist. The "con" uses, many beneficial and legitimate suggestions in the begining.
Establishing themselves with, the "Mark"(the target of the con).
Once the "Mark" is sufficiently "primed" with beneficial suggestions and generally accepted practices, that have been shown to aleviate the symptoms of ill people in general.
Confidence is established.
Then, watch out! LOL!
Having given my opinion per request of Marnie along with a little advice to the novices of this board and possible "newbies" who are very ill.
I shall now leave this thread, and do what I usually come here to do, Help the sick...if I can.
For I was once very ill and came here for advice and initially was ignored for fear I was one of those to be avoided.
Thank God I am not.
I was helped and encouraged by what I have referred to as the "real" people on this website.
See ya in the funny papers! And I hope you are well today...having a "good day" for at least a little while anyway!
posted
My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART. It is the most reliable form of testing I have ever experienced. Within 20 minutes of my initial visit, my doctor had found 4 different health issues that were not picked up by any other medical practioner.
Diana
Posts: 202 | From vancouver, canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
The problem is the practitioner not the practice. It is hard to know at all in advance whether an ART practitioner is any good. I recently went to a homeopath who was way too aggressive and used ART to determine the remedies but I felt he was just using his opinion of what I needed. My own body told me the remedies were too aggressive, and my intuition was that he was using my reporting of symptoms to form his opinion and then "confirming" with ART.
It would be like a musician. Some have perfect pitch, about 5%. The rest don't. And some have tone deaf ears .
But honestly, that's the problem. The body *is* very responsive, but human error and subjectivity is so vast.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Diana wrote:
quote: My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART.
I don't use ART but another form of muscle testing called CRA. Many years ago I was very skeptical but changed my mind when repeatedly my herbalist/muscle tester would come up with things before my doctor would find them via lab tests. This happened so often that I could not chalk it up to coincidence or good guessing.
What convinced me more than anything else though was that I felt better on the specific herbs etc. that were prescribed. I personally don't feel that this is a placebo effect but even if it were, so what? Bottom line is that I feel better AND my disease has not progressed nearly as quickly as others in my family who seem to have the same illness.
One does not need to believe in CRA in order to get results. I did not believe in it when I first tried it and I've seen many skeptics get better with it. The only reason that belief *might* play a part is if someone refused to follow instructions because they didn't believe it would work.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nimzovich76:
quote:Originally posted by diana: My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART. It is the most reliable form of testing I have ever experienced. Within 20 minutes of my initial visit, my doctor had found 4 different health issues that were not picked up by any other medical practioner.
but if your follow up lab tests found out your health issues, how is then that other medical practitioners couldn't do it? don't they use lab tests to assess your health status? I'm confused. Is it that they didn't think of this lab tests?, what sort of tests where these. If the ART findings correlated with the lab tests then why not do the lab tests and forget about ART?
Yes, Nim, you are confused. DIANA is posting that SHE was diagnosed with ART, not the lab tests. And other ducks were not using the ART, so they did not find them. ##
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: but she said that the lab tests duplicated the results with ART, that implies that by doing the lab tests she would've been diagnosed with her health issues, right?
Sure, some health conditions can be diagnosed by lab tests IF the correct tests are run. This means that the doctor has to guess which tests to run first and decide that the evidence is convincing enough to run them.
Of course then there is lyme and other such conditions which may or may not show up in our less than accurate lab tests.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Oxygenbabe is absolutely correct...for once.
I'm JUST KIDDING (teasing), Jill!!
You ARE right! Absolutely. Very well put!
Jill, I hope you picked up on the new device being developed in Canada to deal with CO...in ambulances prior to getting to hospitals to give 100% O2 or do hyperbaric for CO poisoning.
Looks very promising!
Looks like Bb may indeed have the enzyme - carbon monoxide dehydrogenase.
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