quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Well, here's my own muscle testing report. As it turns out my herbalist (who shares an office space with my LLMDs)and I got into a discussion about muscle testing. She knows of my skepticism, and in fact is skeptical herself of its validity, but since many patients request it, she underwent some training. I told her I'd be open to trying it, after she informed me it was just a "tool" that may nor may not work - she was very down to earth about it.
So here's how it went. She want back to her supply area and formulary and picked up a dozen or so bottles of supplements. Upon returning to the office she had me stand up and say out loud something that was true to me. I said "I am skeptical about this test" with a grin, and she laughed, but suggested we try something a bit more positive, which was "I am (my name here) and I'm alive". She then had me extend my arm and try to push down on it.
Following this, she had me hold a supplement who's name I couldn't see in my other hand, and say out loud "Is this good for me?" and then try to push on my arm again. This was repeated for every supplement she had.
At the end, she told me that she didn't get any data from muscle testing on me. My arm didn't feel weak while carrying any particular supplement or anything.
So this is simply a tool, that doesn't work on everyone. Not some miracle diagnostic procedure. And I think it is very important for providers to be honest about this.
I'm still a bit skeptical that the whole thing isn't a hoax, or simply a "gamble", but at least I had an honest practitioner who told me it didn't work, rather than make up some sensitivities and charge me $$$.
I GUARANTEE it WILL work. IF NOT, there is really something wrong with the practitioner OR with what they are doing.
HOLDING a BOTTLE can and WILL block the results. WAS it a glass bottle or a plastic bottle?
Try an opened pack of cigarettes. I did this way back in 1980 give or take a year, and I certainly was no practitioner. I had seen it done as a novelty on TV, and tried it on smokers and none smokers and the results ALWAYS came out the same. Cigarettes were no good for any of them.
I knew of no name for it, but I saw what it did, and knew it could be used with foods etc., but never tried it.
But when Selma brought up ART and Kinsieology, etc., I was a sort of skeptic also on some of those things, but WHO am I to say?
You MUST Study, study, study no matter WHAT you get into, in order to get good at it. For some it is easier than others. Some NEVER get good at something, others can be good at ALMOST everything they try. Some do have natural abilities. But those abilities NEED to be developed, trained and strengthened in order to be really GOOD at whatever it is you are working on.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
Whether or not ART or Bi-Digital O-Ring Test (BDORT) will be CONFIRMED/PROVEN as to being a legitimate diagnostic testing method in the future ...
right now they are not an "accepted" diagnostic tool by "mainstream medicine".
What concerns me most is this:
I believe training "just anyone" who is interested in learning how to do ART (whether or not they have formal medical training in addition) may have potential life-threatening consequences for the subject.
What this does is put a DIAGNOSTIC tool in the hands of someone who does NOT understand or have knowledge of the complexity of the human body.
And goodness knows...even doctors (with training!) themselves make a ton of diagnostic mistakes!
Let me give you an example of why I feel not "just anyone" should practice these diagnostic techniques on another.
I have a good close friend who believes in "body talk" and goes to a practitioner. The practitioner is NOT a MD. This practitioner told my friend (who was holding the bottle of her anti-depressant medicine) that this anti-depressant was not good for her.
Consequently this friend went off the drug and did not go on another.
Has she become more depressed?
Yup...and stressed...blood pressure soared...additional (BP) drugs had to be added by her regular doctor...
Thank goodness (!) the depression (neurotransmitter and hormonal imbalance) didn't progress to the degree it could have and led to her committing suicide.
This friend is very overweight. This is one example of an addictive personality which has roots in our emotional as well as physical state of health.
Addictions are very related to dopamine levels...for starters. Read the July 5,2007 issue of Time magazine on this.
Our hormones and our neurotransmitters "communicate" between one another. Stress...adrenal glands kick in and signal the hypothalamus and pituitary...(HPA axis)
It is a very complex system!
What this non-medically trained practitioner did was to do a simple test and suggest that a particular drug was bad for my friend who then went off of a drug that may have been in reality helping her in a very complex way.
In the WRONG hands, these diagnostic tools can be potentially very harmful.
IMO, anyone who "trains" unprofessionals at seminars to use this technique is encouraging them to practice medicine without a license.
If you are considering this alternative diagnostic test (which supposedly indicates a sympathetic and parasympathetic imbalance in the nervous system), know upfront that these tests are not "recognized" by many professionals despite U.S. patents on these types of diagnostic tools.
Here is one link to a test Dr. Yoshiaki Omura promotes, the Bi-Digital O-Ring Test (BDORT) which he developed to help you to understand what it is.
While I DO believe in "energy fields" and to a degree in how to restore energy via many methods, I feel in the WRONG HANDS these diagnostic tools can be very potentially dangerous.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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GiGi
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posted
Marnie,
No, of course not, mainstream medicine would run into a huge problem: If they were able to manage to accept kinesiology , they might have to face the reality that very few pharma drugs test positive on a sick patient. The lists of side effects on most of them are too long already.
I do not consider the parents of autistic or very ill children ``just anyone''. By the time they reach the stage to want to learn kinesiology or ART they know more about autism than most medical doctors who have not been able to give them any help.
Many of these parents are professional people, some are plain caring people from the farm. But smart enough to start Action groups and testify before Congress, standing up and lecturing in front of large groups with gusto telling how they have learned to manage their lives. I have met some of them. They are moving little mountains and are making great progress. Any of these people are intelligent and experienced enough to know when they have to head for the ER with their child and when they just need to decide which of the meds/remedies/nutrients they have will at a certain moment be the one to help stop the stimming of their child!!!!!! So it can calm down.
I have seen these ``just anyone'' people recently at a four day seminar -- Autism Recovery: A practical Resource-oriented Workshop for Concerned Parents and Practitioners. The opening words were: Although we have experienced a sharp rise in neuron-developmental disorders, in recent years - Autism, Asperger's and other related illnesses on the ``spectrum'' have become, to a large degree, treatable... especially when appropriate interventions are started early. In this 3-day workshop, we will focus on practical and simple solutions, guide the attendees toward the most important resources and work towards a streamlined protocol of assessment tools, self-help methods and therapeutic options. Give me a break, Marnie, ``just anyone''.
Besides parents and children, the majority of the attendees coming to learn were medical doctors, dentists DO's, naturopaths, chiropractors, nurses, long-standing patients taking advantage of being able to learn more to help themselves, etc, and students who are studying to enter the medical field, as well as people/patients who have discovered that this is what might be their future destiny. They are not ``unprofessionals'' as you call them - How would you describe an unprofessional - what is that anyway? I am a homemaker with a past profession - am I an ``unprofessional''?
What is it really that you are trying to say? Training an unprofessional? And who are these'' professionals that don't recognize these alternative diagnostic tests?'' My PCP who was totally helpless when I got sick; or Scott's 40 doctors who were clueless; but all ready to take the check? Marnie, give me a break.
Marnie, Yoshiaki Omura, MD is not promoting a test. The test has been learned around the world by many - they come to his annual meetings, once a year, where he discloses some of his newest discoveries. Dr. K. won't miss it - they have been mentors to each other for many years. A few years ago, in the mid-nineties, Dr. Omura single-handedly discovered Cilantro, also known as Chinese Parsley, which is at this moment still the only ``medicine'' that crosses the blood-brain barrier and mobilizes the most horribly disabling heavy metals out of our brains. Approx. 200,000 medical doctors in Japan use BORT in their practice.
Anyone training in ART will need months of practicing. Anyone I know who is agreeable to taking part in this knows that they are'' practicing'' and they can take part in the practice or not take part in the practice. I am certain there is agreement on this between the parties. This is not a treatment, or an invasive maneuver, nobody gets hurt, and it may just lead to a decision one way or the other for further action. I have practiced it many times with many physicians, practicing students, with all sorts of ``just anybody's''.
Sorry for your friend, Marnie - God gave us all a brain to use, yet often we make a wrong decision. `` Wrong hands,''who is to decide? There are ``Wrong Hands'' in any profession, from car mechanic to the guy called orthopedic physician, belonging to every medical association in the world, who set my broken heel so bad that it had to be done a second time. No fun. ``Wrong Hands.'' Marnie, please give me a break.
Let's leave it at --- ART is here to stay. Dr. K. is here to stay. Dr. Omura is here to stay. Nogier's is here to stay. Kirlian is here to stay. Arms Length Testing is here to stay. The many that practice sound kinesiology, such as Dr. L.C. are here to stay. Kinesiology is here to stay.
And I am here to stay - as long as I am helping at least one person to find some little nugget they can use to help themselves. Please do not criticize a treatment modality if you do not even understand the very basics of it.
Take care.
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Marnie
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posted
I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
Self diagnosing or diagnosing others without a substantial medical knowlege base is, IMO, very risky.
ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance.
Medicine was the first of the professions to require licensure. State laws specific to the licensure of medicine outlined the activities of "diagnosis" and "treatment" of human conditions strictly within the domain of medicine.
Any individual who professed to diagnose or treat as part of the profession could therefore be charged with "practicing medicine without a license."
There are laws about touching another person.
********
Any comments regarding a medical diagnosis by alternative providers who are not licensed to diagnose and treat would constitute practicing medicine without a license.
In addition, their training and background may not provide them with the requisite knowledge to make appropriate referrals.
Thus alternative providers may be obligated to inform patients that they need to seek medical attention, but they should
posted
So, Marnie, glad GiGi cleared up to me, that you are a woman, I always thought you were a man.
Serious.
Going to a MD is risky at best.
Then we have to decipher, WHAT medical knowledge?
AND what about the STATE LAWS? WHO makes up these so called LAWS? Politicians? Lawyers? Doctors? Judges? Scientists? WHO? WHO has the total knowledge of mankinds bodies and REAL needs to be able to do that? WHO?
It is like plumbing. WHO makes up the licensure of plumbing?
Do you think NOBODY else has any God given brains or common sense? Give me a break. There is no better teacher than experience, period.
THAT is why medical doctors keep "practicing". Trouble is, they make ME pay for their practicing on ME! Heck I can practice on ME for nothing. WHY pay someone to do it?
Yes, there are laws about touching another person, and there are laws about NOT touching another person, IF it could help.
Come to think of it, there are stupid laws about just about everything. AND because there are so many "stupid" laws, they keep haveing to change them. Don't they? THAT is because mankind has proven for thousands of years that he cannot rule himself.
Jim ###
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
Self diagnosing or diagnosing others without a substantial medical knowlege base is, IMO, very risky.
ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance.
Medicine was the first of the professions to require licensure. State laws specific to the licensure of medicine outlined the activities of "diagnosis" and "treatment" of human conditions strictly within the domain of medicine.
Any individual who professed to diagnose or treat as part of the profession could therefore be charged with "practicing medicine without a license."
There are laws about touching another person.
********
Any comments regarding a medical diagnosis by alternative providers who are not licensed to diagnose and treat would constitute practicing medicine without a license.
In addition, their training and background may not provide them with the requisite knowledge to make appropriate referrals.
Thus alternative providers may be obligated to inform patients that they need to seek medical attention, but they should
TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
quote: I believe diagnostic tools such as ART should be in the hands of DOCTORS or NATUROPATHS.
You and others have voiced this opinion and that is fine, it is your opinion. I have been seeing an herbalist who is a talented muscle tester and have done my own muscle testing for over 15 years.
If I had followed the M.D.'s etc.. of this world, I'd be in the same condition or worse as my poor sister, brother and mother. They've all been sick for a much shorter period of time than I and my sister is bedridden and the others are extremely ill.
I have been able to help my brother with muscle testing whereas the doctors have given up on him. Imagine their surprise when his extremely elevated liver enzymes returned to normal after years of being high and his brittle diabetes is normal enough to make it so that he does not need to worry about losing the sight in his eye. He was recently removed from the surgery list at the VA, much to the surprise of his doctor. His eye is healing itself now that his blood sugars are normal. The proof is in the pudding.
His "spontaneous" healings have raised more than a few eyebrows at the VA! Even the nurse wanted specific details of what was done so that she could help her daughter.
Muscle testing has helped me tremendously to live with this beast of an illness and to keep my quality of life such that I actually want to keep living.
To each his own. I don't beleive it is for everyone or that everyone is good at it. It also cannot solve all of my problems and it is not 100% accurate but I thank god that I've been given the tool of muscle testng.
It has saved my sanity and my husband and I believe it literally saved his life. He has a degree in electrical engineering and I in computer science and while we value science and logic, we are pragmatic. Whatever works!!! Terry
[ 21. July 2007, 02:55 AM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
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GiGi
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posted
I can't keep quiet on this one:
Marnie posted -- "ART is a DIAGNOSTIC test to determine if the sympathatic and parasympathetic nervous system is out of balance."
We know that literally in any chronically ill person the autonomics are out of balance. That's what makes us ill. Body has lost control of many functions necessary. There is no need to diagnose that.
ART diagnoses and selects the medium (therapy, medicines, homeopathics, nutrients, etc. and treats -- all in one --layer after layer of the body, and emotional body. Whatever shows up as needing to be treated next, is treated. If the liver is in distress, it is treated: at the same time the cause that stresses the liver in the first place is addressed, medicine selected, etc.
If a scar on the leg, on or near the gallbladder meridian stresses the gallbladder, easily recognized with ART, the scar is treated.
Everything that the body calls attention to with ART, as a foci, a stressed organ or body area, is treated -- and the medicine selected at the same time. Any emotional conflict causing the stress to any part of the body is usually discovered and treated, usually right away during the session.
When a wisdom tooth or old wisdom tooth site is found to be a disturbed area, it is addressed - often the organ that is affected is the heart. That is addressed. (Tooth and organ connection established long ago in Chinese Medicine. I posted the chart once or twice. (Google it if interested).
Marnie, I don't think I have ever heard a more disturbing opinion about kinesiology from an educated person than yours. But I have no interest in responding. In a way, it just makes me sad.
I merely come back here to clarify for others if I think it is important enough.
Anyway, it's my bedtime now.
Take care.
P.S. TerryK, I am happy that you have mastered as much as you have. That is wonderful! and I know what a good feeling this "tool" is. It helped me/us over many dips and valleys.
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Marnie
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posted
1. ART is not yet "accepted" by "traditional" medicine. I am NOT saying it might not work. I am saying it is not "accepted" by the medical establishment and SOME alternative practitioners don't follow the "rules" which then gives those professions a "bad name".
2. ART IS a diagnostic tool as you stated. And in order for someone to diagnose another they must have some sort of medical formal training or they risk being charged with practicing medicine without a license.
3. IF someone is doing ART and does NOT have formal medical training and any kind of "licensure" - even IF that person is "practicing" under a "doctor" he/she can be convicted of practicing medicine without a license and furthermore that doctor can be charged with "aiding and abbetting".
The vast majority of lyme patient can NOT afford the MULTIPLE treatments you suggest.
My goal has always been to find the cheapest and the fastest cure for lyme FOR THE MASSES.
What is your goal?
[ 15. August 2007, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Jenifer ]
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heiwalove
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Member # 6467
posted
marnie -
you are right about the cost of lyme treatment, natural or otherwise. it is prohibitive. the only reason i was able to see an ART practitioner and take the large amount of herbs and supplements and energy treatments that helped me get well was because i have a rich grandfather on my father's side who, despite the fact that he didn't believe i had lyme (no one in my family believed i was physically ill), paid for my treatment. i don't understand it, but i am eternally, forever grateful. i have very little money of my own, and my mother doesn't have any extra money to spare - so without his help, i would still be gravely ill.
most people are not so lucky. i am acutely aware of this.
so, i think it's AWESOME that you're researching lowcost alternatives - it is so very badly needed. that is why i think it's imperative that your medical posts be translatable to lay people, AND to those who need that info the most - people with severe neurological lyme disease.
GiGi of course can answer for herself, but i know that her only motivation is to help people. she has a wealth of information and a wealth of personal experience with this illness to back it up. she has never claimed that all the treatments and modalities she recommends are cheap - although i do know that she has recommended low-cost alternatives for people who can't afford the more expensive options.
posted
I never bother reading about ART testing as I did look into it once a while ago and my opinion is that it is a belief, nothing scientific behind it whatsoever. But the number of posts in this thread caught my attention, so I thought I would just chime in to give MY opinion about it.
I have not read the thread so maybe someone else has voiced the same opinion.
I think people who diagnose through ART make educated guesses re what is ailing you and press harder or softer on your arm and the they educate-guess again in the same way re treatment.
When people do it to themselves they do the same.
I also think that people who go to practitioners who use ART, they are willingly (if not knowingly) going in the direction that is suggested to them. We all SO want to get better!!
Please don't throw stones at me. This is just what I think. I am not pro or anti anything as a matter of principle, I use a lot of herbal things, supps etc but holding a bottle of aspirin in my hand to see "if it's good for me"...No go!
Nelly
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GiGi
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Member # 259
posted
Nell,
"Please don't throw stones at me. This is just what I think. I am not pro or anti anything as a matter of principle, I use a lot of herbal things, supps etc but holding a bottle of aspirin in my hand to see "if it's good for me"...No go!"
What you are describing, Nellis, is neither ART nor Kinesiology. And now I got to run because I am attending a three day seminar on Neural Therapy where ART and Lyme and LED and everything that is worthwhile talking about comes up and is covered in detail for medical professionals and some ex-Lymies and some chronically ill who are learning to help themselves.
I described what a first session in ART generally looks like (The Seven Factors), and now I have to run because I am attending a three day seminar where Neural Therapy is taught, which usually covers some treatment of chronic disease, from shoulder pains to Lyme Disease and toxic teeth. I will let you know if I learn anything new.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
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posted
Here is a copy of my previous post from above -- that's what a first exam utilizing muscle testing/ART looks like:
Selma explained Blocked Regulation of the Autonomic Nervous System as it relates to ART. In ART, it is necessary that the regulation be open=unblocked so that the body can reveal the truth with muscle strength or weakness. Both can be "good or bad".
There is no extensive discussion on history or medical reports,except history of surgeries (for scars), dental work, and "when did it start?" (It often starts following a dental intervention, stress event, breakup, etc.)
The patient is ART tested following a brief physical exam, usually on the first visit, for the seven issues that are commonly responsible for blocked regulation and chronic illness:
Factor #1 Toxins: Heavy metals, xenobiotics, solvents and biotoxins from microorganisms (Lyme and co-infections, mycoplasma, chlamydia, viruses, fungi, mold, etc.)
Factor #3: Structural Problems: TMD/Malocclusion, bridge crossing the midline, vertebral and cranial subluxation, etc.
Factor #4: Energetic Perturbances: Dysfunctional scars, ganglia, acupuncture meridians and points. Blocked chakras, electrogalvanism, etc.
Factor #5 : Food Intolerances:
Factor #6: Geopathic Stress
Factor #7: Unresolved psycho-emotional conflict or trauma(treatment is usually brief and effective)
The patient's treatment starts already with the testing. The materials/medicines/abx/remedies are tested. Whichever tests best and unblocks the Autonomic regulation is recommended and used. The patient might have to see a biological dentist next. Or might have to take some corrective steps to change sleeping location (Move the bed a foot to the R or L, or more) Next visit all is tested again or different meds are tested, with emphasis on open regulation, and the best chosen. Layer by layer.
Testing for blocked regulation is the first test performed in ART. It assures that the system itself can disclose the information needed to change itself. Most other muscle testing methods do not consider this fact. Applied Kinesiology also does not test for blocked regulation.
This is ART in brief. Trust and cooperation is necessary. It is performed with the greatest of care by a good practitioner. It's without a doubt the best thing I ran across.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Marnie
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posted
If you want to learn ART...that's one thing. If you PRACTICE ART and other "alternative therapies" on others even WITH a medical/other training...that's quite another thing...as it has gotten more than one in serious legal trouble.
If you want to see a PICTURE of the 5 levels of healing and how they are diagnosed and treated, go here:
posted
It all depends on which state you are in and how open the State's MA is. For example here in Texas my MD cannot do EAV/EDS and Kinesiology, but accepts it and approves of using a ND as part of my integrative care. He says his license would be taken away if using non approved testing methods because not the standard of care / diagnostic methods in Texas. He can use only diagnostic methods accepted by the TMA and let other practitioners who are qualified, ie Med Tech, ND, DC, etc. to operate such equipment, take the reading information and discuss it.
Posts: 116 | From Plano, Texas, USA | Registered: May 2004
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Greatcod
Unregistered
posted
I knew a guy named Arthur who practiced ART. The sign outside his office said "Art who practices the art of ART".
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northstar
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posted
"I knew a guy named Arthur who practiced ART. The sign outside his office said "Art who practices the art of ART".
'artie 'artie 'ar 'ar, matie ! ,
N/
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
To put you all at ease, most people come for ART with juicy multiple diagnoses, many, multiple, in writing, from ALS to Parkinsons, to MS, on stretchers and wheelchairs, and kids that swing on the office chandelier ----- prior treaments unsuccessful, the waiting room always crowned by the nasty mercury-toxic Lymie who can't hold their temper. Excuse - Lyme rage. There is not a single patient that is not encouraged to get objective lab testing besides what ART reveals.
So hold your horses. No crimes committed. Some just need to get well, for the sake of us all, and if it needs ART or Kinesiology or laying- on-of-hands to finally bring this to bear, so be it. I don't mind if you call it woo-doo. It works.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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butchieboo
Unregistered
posted
OK Marnie,
In answer to your initial query.
After reading a lot on this thread I believe AK and whatever else this thread may have produced, pertaining to interpreting kinetic energy
released by the body to specific muscles in the body, for the purpose of determining the course of treatment a medical practicioner should
attempt, merely by reading the serendipitous outward movements of certain muscles, is, IMHO, a hoax and no better than guessing.
Let me, take this opportunity to inform those that are mentally incapacitated due to Lyme or any previously discussed tickborne illness, including co-infections.
Those ill individuals that frequent this website in an attempt to ascertain answers to their many questions.
Those who may have happened onto this thread to take notice of this debate.
I implore all the ill,confused, hurting and possibly, simply naive and overly trustful.
Please,try and make their own decisions as to the validity of all that has transpired in this thread.
Keeping in mind those who contributed to this thread on the "Pro" side as well as the "Con".
Remember also, anyone who would make a living, employing the "ART" of the "CON-GAME" is relying on the many unknowns of this disease.
In as much as the term CON-GAME is derived from the term CONFIDENCE GAME and is learned and practiced, as any legitimate profession would,
until, the successful practitioners, can be referred to as artisans of this "GAME".
The art of instilling confidence in the victims("Marks"), of the game is a necessary pre-requisite in attaining any substantial success.
A great deal of time and patience is exhibited by the professional con-artist. The "con" uses, many beneficial and legitimate suggestions in the begining.
Establishing themselves with, the "Mark"(the target of the con).
Once the "Mark" is sufficiently "primed" with beneficial suggestions and generally accepted practices, that have been shown to aleviate the symptoms of ill people in general.
Confidence is established.
Then, watch out! LOL!
Having given my opinion per request of Marnie along with a little advice to the novices of this board and possible "newbies" who are very ill.
I shall now leave this thread, and do what I usually come here to do, Help the sick...if I can.
For I was once very ill and came here for advice and initially was ignored for fear I was one of those to be avoided.
Thank God I am not.
I was helped and encouraged by what I have referred to as the "real" people on this website.
See ya in the funny papers! And I hope you are well today...having a "good day" for at least a little while anyway!
posted
My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART. It is the most reliable form of testing I have ever experienced. Within 20 minutes of my initial visit, my doctor had found 4 different health issues that were not picked up by any other medical practioner.
Diana
Posts: 202 | From vancouver, canada | Registered: Jun 2005
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oxygenbabe
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Member # 5831
posted
The problem is the practitioner not the practice. It is hard to know at all in advance whether an ART practitioner is any good. I recently went to a homeopath who was way too aggressive and used ART to determine the remedies but I felt he was just using his opinion of what I needed. My own body told me the remedies were too aggressive, and my intuition was that he was using my reporting of symptoms to form his opinion and then "confirming" with ART.
It would be like a musician. Some have perfect pitch, about 5%. The rest don't. And some have tone deaf ears .
But honestly, that's the problem. The body *is* very responsive, but human error and subjectivity is so vast.
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
Diana wrote:
quote: My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART.
I don't use ART but another form of muscle testing called CRA. Many years ago I was very skeptical but changed my mind when repeatedly my herbalist/muscle tester would come up with things before my doctor would find them via lab tests. This happened so often that I could not chalk it up to coincidence or good guessing.
What convinced me more than anything else though was that I felt better on the specific herbs etc. that were prescribed. I personally don't feel that this is a placebo effect but even if it were, so what? Bottom line is that I feel better AND my disease has not progressed nearly as quickly as others in my family who seem to have the same illness.
One does not need to believe in CRA in order to get results. I did not believe in it when I first tried it and I've seen many skeptics get better with it. The only reason that belief *might* play a part is if someone refused to follow instructions because they didn't believe it would work.
Terry
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JimBoB
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by Nimzovich76:
quote:Originally posted by diana: My follow up lab tests have duplicated the findings of ART. It is the most reliable form of testing I have ever experienced. Within 20 minutes of my initial visit, my doctor had found 4 different health issues that were not picked up by any other medical practioner.
but if your follow up lab tests found out your health issues, how is then that other medical practitioners couldn't do it? don't they use lab tests to assess your health status? I'm confused. Is it that they didn't think of this lab tests?, what sort of tests where these. If the ART findings correlated with the lab tests then why not do the lab tests and forget about ART?
Yes, Nim, you are confused. DIANA is posting that SHE was diagnosed with ART, not the lab tests. And other ducks were not using the ART, so they did not find them. ##
TerryK
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quote: but she said that the lab tests duplicated the results with ART, that implies that by doing the lab tests she would've been diagnosed with her health issues, right?
Sure, some health conditions can be diagnosed by lab tests IF the correct tests are run. This means that the doctor has to guess which tests to run first and decide that the evidence is convincing enough to run them.
Of course then there is lyme and other such conditions which may or may not show up in our less than accurate lab tests.
Terry
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Marnie
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Oxygenbabe is absolutely correct...for once.
I'm JUST KIDDING (teasing), Jill!!
You ARE right! Absolutely. Very well put!
Jill, I hope you picked up on the new device being developed in Canada to deal with CO...in ambulances prior to getting to hospitals to give 100% O2 or do hyperbaric for CO poisoning.
Looks very promising!
Looks like Bb may indeed have the enzyme - carbon monoxide dehydrogenase.
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oxygenbabe
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You know what is even weirder. I see my email to this practitioner the next day after I took the first remedy. I see that I emailed him (on April 27) that I crashed out into a deep nap and woke up in tears, feeling like I had the flu, and told my bf, "These remedies may work but they are the wrong remedies and will make me sicker...they are too strong." ARGGGG. He told me the remedies were not too strong and it was the only way to get out the toxins. He meant well and he *really* tried to help me. So it was very confusing. But I'd said the truth that first night to my bf, and stuck with this for 3 more months. What I mean to say is, we know more than we know. We probably could test ourselves if we found that quiet place.
Marnie I am glad to hear about that. Portable chambers should be in every ambulance.
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GiGi
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ART is difficult to describe on a piece of paper. It is best seen to understand the process. I will give it one more try:
Ir you are suffering from Lyme Disease, or from ``something'' that you think is Lyme Disease, I don't know any other method to determine quickly what the problems appear to be and how to best treat them. Except ART.
As I have described in my posts above, ART tests for the Factors 1-7, which is a list of all possible conditions that contribute to your being sick today. All the problem areas (1 through 7) are searched with this method - and at the same time, all medicines, remedies are tested on you to find out which ones tests the best for a particular infection, pain, etc. All testing based on resonance of frequencies, and logic and common sense and experience on the part of the practitioner.
The medicines for all the problems are chosen -- i.e. if you test positive with ART for Lyme infections, for parasite problems, for stressed liver or kidney problems, etc. All of them are also tested together, as one soup, to see if the body can handle them together. Homeopathics, supporting nutrients are tested to make sure they are tolerated.
Anything that does not test well, is removed and is not used at this time. Maybe later, once the body starts to function better and tolerate more. If a certain abx tests well, that stays in the "soup". If, for instance, Coumadin tests better, that is part of the "soup". (ART determines good, better, best) If you have a KMT or other gadget, that can be tested. Which frequencies to use are tested. Your make-up and your eye glasses or watch can be tested. All can disturb the ANS (autonomic nervous system) - sending signals through the body.
If all the antimicrobials and the support items together keep the patient being tested in a positive, "unblocked" mode, that will be the recommended program/protocol for the time being, until the next visit. All written down on a piece of paper as to when and how. Most practitioners I know work like this.
Further, scars which cause an interference field are treated usually on the first visit. Reason: Any scar anywhere can be an interference field and prevent the nervous system from functioning normally (interrupted electrical). An appendix scar can be the cause of Asthma, etc. Treatment of scars can fix a ten-year old migraine headache. Vaccination scars, any scar (the tiniest ones need to be treated). Sometimes with Neural Therapy, laser, etc., wheat germ oil. Read up on Neural Therapy and you get an idea what it is. ( President John Kennedy was treated "quietly" (so nobody could get upset about this ``hoax'') with Neural Therapy for a long time and kept his backpain in check.) Dr. K. has brought Neural Therapy overhere from Germany and has been teaching is since the eighties and others are now teaching it.
The patient is also tested, usually during the first visit, for any exposure to EMF or Geopathic stress. Recommendations vary: Move bed a foot to the other side, etc.; check microwave towers looking into your bedroom window /might have to move. Unclutter the bedroom. All this is too lengthy for me to describe here -- how the testing is done, at the doctor's office. But it is one very important test. If EMF/geopathic exposure is too hefty, not the best medicine in the world will bring back health.
One of the greatest benefits of ART is the fact that it can be determined right then and there, quite clearly: which combination of factors is disturbing this patient's Autonomic Nervous System. And at the same time determine which medicine and which therapies is favorable to bring it back into balance. That is when the healing can start.
There is no guessing game -- does this abx work for this co-infection? And would it be too much for this patient to add another medicine into the mix to handle the babesia or other infections? Also, all the supporting medicines to minimize excessive healing crises / herxheimers are chosen and mixed in the soup. Homeopathics if any are tested and often prepared right there, and added. These may be stopped, changed, or continued at the next testing.
In ART ---- muscle testing is used as an extension of the physical exams to establish the tentative diagnosis. In a second step, lab testing is used to confirm the findings. It is a non-invasive method for detecting heavy metals, xenobiotics and chronic infections - all of which to some degree often make up or contribute to the miserable Lyme Disease.
Have you ever had your meds tested before you spent money on them?
Have you ever had the underlying factors tested that may be a part of Lyme Disease and all the inherent problems?.
I think not - Running from one conventional doctor to the next, I did not even come close to finding all these things out during my first, second or tenth office visit. Using ART, most of it happens in an hour or an hour and a half. I have no desire to convince anyone - we are all our own doctor - but I want everyone to know that ART is not a hoax. There are thousands of practitioners in Europe and many here that have learned and practice this method. As in every profession, there are crooks and thieves and honest people who try to do their best. Mercury toxic patients and Lyme patients are probably the most difficult patients --- I used to be one of them.
Even with ART, it takes time to heal - it also took a long time to get ill. If you think it happened overnight, think again. Cost? They vary from practitioner to practitioner, region, etc. - there are many ways to minimize it. If you can't find anyone doing it, search more. People from here and other areas travel all over the place testing people (groups that have formed) in other areas. One of my practitioner friends treats a group of people working at one company (nice company!) and goes to other areas of the country. I have friends who are Klinghardt therapists who come to New York regularly to treat their patients. There are many ways to minimize cost. Support detox with a homemade organic parsley tincture. Help your pain with a Clean Bentonite/Water mix painted on your hurting foot. I have given you many ideas over the years - veggie/fruit mousse - kefir - fulvic - inexpensive chi machine for lymphatic drainage (if you don't drain the toxins out, you cannot flow the nutrients in)........
Etc. etc. etc.
If you think ART is a hoax, keep doing what you are doing. The choice is yours.
JimBob has a nice finishing line on his posts --- I love it - look it up.
P.S. I had wrenched my back a bit lifting something toooo big for my body size, actually injured it a couple of days ago and had trouble getting up, turning. RELAPSE!!!!!!!!!!!!LYME DISEASE!!!!!!!! DISASTER!!!!!!!!! No, I went to my ART trained chiropractor practicing a certain Gonzales method - within less than 15 minutes and ART she knew which of the nerves/disc connection was injured and treated it on the spot with a tiny laser! My pain is gone. It cost less than fifty dollars and took no more than a quarter of an hour. That's ART in action, combined with another fellow's superb invention called GRT. Check the internet.
To Oxygenbabe: and others: Sometimes, many times for me, I learned (quoting Dr.K.) "the only way out is the way through" -- sometimes it takes a week of tears to get the toxin out and then we finally find ourselves in a different world. We feel different and can't really pinpoint it. Today we have it a bit easier, we have learned more and are learning more each and every day: with the little laser helper and a detox support homeopathic/vial helping with the emotional connection tied the toxin. Of course, if anyone looks at laser and biophotons as a hoax too, I can't help it. And if you don't believe that everything in this world and out of this world has a frequency, forget all.
And do take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
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Tosho, if you read through this thread or some of the others discussing energetic testing, you will note that in energetic testing, the most important problem/infection/toxin the body feels to have to deal with is always showing up first.
If at a certain time, one infection shows and does not test at another time, what shows first is the priority to deal with. It is the onion theory. One layer after the other. Sometimes all show, sometimes only some show. That doesn't mean the other problems are gone forever. Often the medicine or remedy will still test well, that means you use it. And a good practitioner can use logic, common sense, and experience to guide you. I often continued taking a remedy, even though a specific microbe did not test at one time or another.
It is useless to try to determine which symptoms falls into this category or another category/infection. Neurological symptoms are very much the same, and even though I always tried to ask "is this Bb, or is this babs" - the answer always was "I don't know." Many of the infections cause identical symptoms. And if you add xenobiotics and other toxins into the list, the differentiation is even harder.
The microbes are taking on different forms and characteristics, they mutate, causing a problem in one body part is feels different than in another body compartment.
Babesia treating first? Maybe that is the experience when treating conventially. It is not with ART, at least initially. What shows up first, is treated. The rest may follow later. I am not familiar with other energetic testing.
Rule in ART: The body tells you what is most important for its present constitution and conditon. That is what needs attention. The rest follows. I am very much of the opinion that this is why ART works. The body cannot be loaded with agents it cannot at the present deal with and/or tolerate. With ART you know when it is ready. For that reason, I don't think I ever had a herxheimer. I was always tested for the meds and the support agents - which avoids stressed and overloaded organs, etc.
It would be wise to ask your practitioner and her/him explain it. And, by the way, whenever certain emotions show up in testing, that also takes priority. That is dealt with first - then follows everything else. As long as the body is blocked because of an emotional hangup, it can't go into a healing mode no matter how many good medicines you stick into it.
That's ART and that is why it works so well. Not faster, but much deeper and more permanent than anything else.
Hope you have trust in your practitioner. Talk about it with her/him. They receive wonderful training, go through a hefty exam by their teachers before they are certified. I have seen my friend very nervous before her exam. Today she is one of the finest Klinghardt practitioners in Germany.
ART and other similar courses (not sure if all or just some) are credited toward Coninuing Education requirements for MD's and other medical professionals in Germany. Not sure about the rest of Europe.
Hope all goes well for you, Tosho.
Take care.
P.S. Hope you understand - I don't have time to read what I wrote - spending way too much time here............
I am very familiar with the therapist near Freiburg. She is first class. You cannot find better. Check with Selma/Switzerland posting above. She sees the same lady. Feel free to e-mail me [email protected]. Not certain who the other practitioner is.
[ 26. July 2007, 02:23 AM: Message edited by: GiGi ]
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi
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Tosho,
"Do you think I should say to Mrs. S. (Freiburg) the result of previous testing?
And look - there is one another thing interesting. Despite Mrs. S. didn't find babs, Quina tested for me as: "not good, but not bad - you can take it"
As you know, Quina (Nutramedix) is a tincture extract from quinine bark. I don't think it is rich in quinine alkaloids, but it has to have some in it.
What do you think about it?"
Of course, you should talk to Mrs. S. about your previous findings. Only then does she have a chance to explain to you why it doesn't show at this particular time. And if you ask questions and develop some trust in your practitioner it is helpful.
Quina is an anti-bacterial, an antiprotozoal, anti-inflammatory, etc., Babesia not showing at this particular moment, and Quina being also anti-protozoal probably shows for that reason not as strong as other medicines.
That's exactly what ART is all about - the dominant problem asks for the dominant medicine. At this particular moment, your body is not as concerned with Babesia as it is with some others. That does not mean it is gone for good. The body takes care of others first, and might then deal with it again. Who knows. Just flow with it.
Ask her, talk to her - that's the only way to learn and understand how ART works. I used to do that to Dr. K. and still do that if I don't understand anything. Just watch your time, because the clock is running also when just making conversation. I also learned that -- doctor starts running late, etc. etc.
Take care.
What do I think about Quina? I never had it to use because it was not commonly used by Lymies then. But if Dr. LC uses it - I would not hesitate a minute. He is one of the best ALLMD's (Alternative LymeLiterate MD) around doing ART (a cardiologist) and doing wonderful work. He is also now teaching LED worldwide - you should look into it. Go to www.BetterHealthGuy.com (Scott's website) and read the article which describes LED very nicely. It helps many a lot.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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hardynaka
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posted
I lost this interesting thread as I was on vacations...
Sorry to see you didn't get your O-ring test yet Gigi. It took me a few months to get it right, most difficult is to tune the force (get the same force all the time).
Thanks for the posts, I read them all with interest!!
TOSHO, after I've been testing my own stuff (in between ART visits), I see that what I need to take changes ALMOST every day.
Minerals change, herb amounts change. Rare are the herbs that test for very long periods (exception for me are Jap. knotweed, cats claw and cleansing herbs chlorella - bear garlic - milk thistle - artichoke).
All others come and go. And believe me, they change every day. Many homeopathics amazingly change every day too. Ledum, hypericum, aurum arsenicosum for example...
Terry got interesting experiences with muscle testing too, it seems!!
After reinfection, I was taking LOADS OF HERBS, now I'm on a very reduced protocol again, still symptomless, but I guess I still got hidden pathogens here and there. My only symptom is fungi herx (after fungal killers). But getting lower.
Today I re-started high dose artemisinin, and herxed on the first dose (so I guess there's some babesia hidden...).
And another thing that I start to be a total 'believer' is on phsychokinesiology. I saw clear improvements after a treatment of sulphur-resistance.
My body couldn't absorb sulphur well, so I couldn't detox well (sulphur is a must to detox). My only treatment was to make my body 'accept' sulphur again (phsychological blockage), and here I am, I don't test good for MSM anymore for weeks, just sometimes for sulphur homeopathics... And my herxes became much more tolerable after that (before that I was EATING MSM IN TABLESPOONS)!!
Soon after, I didn't need the frozen garlic anymore (also loaded with sulphur). I'm off frozen garlic for weeks and doing well. I still need the bear garlic though for my kidneys, but the overall amount of sulphur I need to ingest now is minimum compared to soon after reinfection!
Doing muscle tests by myself made me understand how my body needs constant changes.
I'm not a professional, even though I'm thinking to do a few courses on the thing. And I'm not going to stop doing it as it's been too helpful to drop it.
I'm using it to do so many unimaginable things (like choosing which tooth to refill first after having these temporary fillings, which acupuncture point to treat not to have tooth pain after fillings as many fillings are deep and close to the nerve, which KMT program to use if a tooth starts to be painful for no reason after my reinfection, where to attach eletrodes, etc etc).
If this is all placebo, well, it's working well so far!! My dentist told me I could lose a tooth because of depth of the filling and that if the pain was unbearable to call her back that she would do ROOT CANAL TREATMENT.
The pain was awful, I found the right point to apply moxibustion through muscle test, with muscle test I discover the time of application. Well, the pain was gone after about 10 minutes. I burned my skin though, but I'd rather have my moxibustion point burned than this awful tooth pain. I believe I saved my tooth so far, thanks to O ring...
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
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I test CDC positive for Lyme and I never herxed, using any of the several antibiotics my MD's prescribed... I just got better. That does in fact happen to some people.
hardynaka
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I just want to add one thing.
TOSHO just found out by a blood exam that he's got CHLAMYDIA pneum. He was surprised to find out.
So at least for that, ART was 'right' as it pointed that BEFORE he did the blood exam!
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I tend to be a hard science vs touchy feely type of person, but (yikes) 32 years ago a dr I was seeing (pre Lyme) had two little identical containers. He didnt' tell me what he was doing, but had me hold each one and then pulled on my arm. One time my arm didn't move, the other it was like I had no strength. It turned out that one container had saccharine and the other sugar. He wanted me to stop drinking diet soda.
I still find it annoying that I don't understand on an intellectual level how/why muscle testing works, all I know is that the 1st time I had it done to me I had not a clue what was going on, so had no preconcieved notions going in. I assume that it has something to do with any "poison" somehow disrupting the electical functioning of the body on a cellular level. I cannot speak to ART.
-------------------- Valerie *********************************** "A woman is like a tea bag- you never know how strong she is until she gets in hot water." Eleanor Roosevelt Posts: 63 | From Jim Thorpe, PA | Registered: Aug 2007
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hardynaka
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Tosho, I came back from my ART doctor last week. He found 3 pathogens in my brain still: borrelia, bartonella and ehrlichia.
Ehrlichia is a TOTAL new one for me. It didn't show up in any ART test before. My daughter had it, but not me, that I KNEW.
I came back home and asked about it, and yes, he was right. KMT program 1 started testing good. It's been LONG TIME I dont' test for program 1. I SUPPOSE program 1 has ehrlichia then.
I got it probably in this last May bite (if it was in the first bite, I was symptomless since 2005, which I don't believe this is possible).
I believe ART or any other muscle test can't see all (but they usually get more than blood tests, in my experience). But when the pathogen is very low profile or hiding, it won't show up. It's the onion peel theory.
When I was bitten, I also 'asked' with my own muscle tests which pathogens I got. Ehrlichia didn't show up but all others my doctor found, I had found myself at home. Ehrlichia not.
I don't blame them, it's the limit of the test. I can't find myself through kinesiology, how can they find?
I'm doing these tests EVERYDAY for about 2 months or so. I do it many times a day. I can swear the pathogens do come and go, they change place, they get into cysts (not all), they come back again, I find them in my eyes, in my teeth, in my GI tract often, brain, articulations, organs, but they keep moving, sometimes, they simply go and hide to wait.
I see that happen to me a few times, even borrelia doesn't show up sometimes!
Bartonella is a CHAMPION to hide. I believe it hides more than borrelia. I was symptomless for more than a year (I had babesia though that has similar symptoms). But when babesia was down, I continue symptomless from bartonella (that I didn't believe I had, only ART had said I had months before).
Well, a few months after babesia was down, I had my first bart rash, exactly like in the photos. I had brain inflamation, muscle pains etc. Quite a few bart symptoms. For a few months previous to that, ART couldn't find bart in me either. It was hiding.
So I thought, well I'm done with it, it disappeared without treatment or I didn't have it (ART did a mistake I thought). No. I wasn't. I only believed when I saw those rashes.
If you go NOW to the ART practioners and you are with bart symptoms, it will probably show up (of course, you dont' have to tell them).
It's like one pathogen hides another. And certain pathogens help others to come up or to go down. I believe we can't have flares of all our pathogens at once.
Just my own opinion.
My ehrlichia story is that they found bart, borrelia, babesia, mycoplasma and candida immediately after this second bite (ART).
Ehrlichia was hiding, and at that time, I was fully symptomatic of at least borrelia and babesia. S. from Freiburg doesn't EVEN look for all pathogens, she just looks for what is blocking you/ what's urgent. She even didn't look for my mycoplasma (my doctor did).
She knows she may find dozens, if not hundreds of pathogens in a crhonic lyme patient, so why look for all if we CAN'T TREAT all at the same time?
Once you start the right treatment for a certain number of pathogens and problems, your ecossystem changes VERY FAST. I can swear it changes, at least, I've seen that happen EVERY single day in my recent acute infection.
I didn't take the exact amount/ herbs every day, there's not a SINGLE day I repeated my treatment exactly as the day before. There was always something changing, either in the amount or the herb itself.
What's funny is that we evolute by loops if you're taking the right things. From a day to another, sometimes my whole protocol had to change, very suddenly.
I got surprised in the first two times it happened. Very surprised. But when I changed the protocol as my tests told me, I herxed more intensely, so I said, it means I'm going right.
And went on. I do attribute this to a change in the ecossystem, some critters come up, others down, that's why my body asks for a change in herbs.
Or that borrelia and other critters get used to what I was taking and when my body feels it starts to lose the battle because these critters are so smart, then my body asks for a drastic change to surprise them and make them lose again.
Sometimes I tested for the exact SAME pathogens, but the herbs I had to take were completely different. My body said a clear 'no' to the protocol it said 'yes' the day before. And I followed it.
So don't be surprised if suddenly you'll need to treat another virus infection in your brain (non related to tick bites) or any other intestinal parasite instead of tick-born pathogens. Things you had NO IDEA you could have.
It happened to me a few times. It meant that these OTHER pathogens were the most important to treat, not borrelia and co. ART said that a few times, I was doubtful, but followed what I was told to do, and improved. So you can't possibly know ALL your pathogens that need treatment at once. It's a step by step process.
This is not an easy disease with a FIXED picture: you get a yes for all your pathogens and treat them ALL at once. No. It doesn't work like that, UNFORTUNATELY. It would have been easy then.
There's an order to follow, the critters don't show up all at the same time, the treatment has to follow THEM, how they react to this and that medication, and your symptoms... It's a slow step-by-step process.
Imagine if now you have to start to treat borrelia cysts, borrelia active form, babesia, babesia cysts, chlamydia, bartonella, GI candida, parasites, your teeth, your metals in the SO MANY different parts of your body, etc ALL AT THE SAME TIME. Your body won't decode this treatment, it won't work.
My opinion, of course.
It's good that you found good labs to find these critters. Are you sending your blood in Poland or to the US? I'm curious to know, no one ever found bart in my blood before here in Switzerland/ Belgium!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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GiGi
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Well said, Selma.
Pathogens exchange RNA, DNA and other information carriers that convey the evasion tricks between different species.
Why worry which of the evolved species/bugs happens to cause today's itch? There probably are as many different forms of a certain co-infection as there are people that have been invaded by them.
I have no doubt that the Bartonella hensl. that hit me ten years ago today looks not even remotely like that today. The invaders produce peptides and other informational substances that create toxicity and other biochemical alterations that discourage access of the immune system and foster their own growth.
I believe the main object in ART is to find the treatment/medicine that will resolve the blockage and cause healing to begin.
Tosho, you might want to check for other toxicities - in case you have not done that. If you are heavy metal toxic, that will hold things up for a while or for a long time.
Take care.
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