posted
From what I've gathered, most herb users take them in capsules.
What if instead, you chewed the herbs for some length of time, and allowed the compounds to be absorbed directly into the bloodstream from under the tongue? It might be tough with some of the more nasty tasting herbs, but there would be bioavailability of almost 100% since the herbs need not traverse the digestive tract.
Here's a link that discusses sublingual administration in general.
CaliforniaLyme
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 7136
posted
That is a good idea- also you can take some in tea form!!!!!!!! Like Ledum makes a tea that was historically used for a muscle wasting disease of fur trappers-!!! I drink Rosemary tea sometimes because it is good for the memory and an anti-bacterial- and I include fresh herbs in foods every day that are anti-bacterial- so eating herbs in food is good t00-!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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hardynaka
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Yaniv, you can chew, and eat them if you are able to... I've done that with few things (like tea leaves, cloves... ) The problem is sometimes nausea, babesia can cause nausea and it will be hard to ingest if you feel that...
Some herbs, I find difficult: andrographis for example. There's even more bitter than andro, like amargo from rain-tree for malaria/ babesia.
I find the taste of most not too nice, so I preferred to take them in powder and in capsules.
The problem is that if you buy the herbs to chew, you have to buy them NOT IN POWDER, because the powder is very very dry. Unless you mix them with water and drink. I think drinking is best, if you don't want to encapsulate. If you'd like some of the herbs to 'pass' under your tongue to your circulation, you can just leave the water in your mouth for longer.
Many people mix in water and ingest. AFter a while, I guess many get used to the bad tastes. I could barely stand frozen garlic in the beginning, now I can drink it like a juice (even though I don't like the taste of it).
But few herbs make good teas. Japanese Knotweed, for example. Very difficult to ingest this bark only chewing, it takes very long... Also for pau d'arco, I prefer to tincture it. Also sarsaparilla root, difficult to chew, but good for tea (but I found less effective than mere powdered in capsules, for example).
Barks are not a very good idea to chew, in my experience. It takes long time and if you don't chew them well, you lose a lot. Leaves are fine for chewing though.
So when you buy herbs, you got to see which are bark, roots, which are leaves, etc. As I buy through the internet, I usually don't know exactly what I will get until I receive the package.
But if you buy everything in powder, you can either encapsulate them, or mix in water. That's what I do. Unless I'm sure I can tincture it, or that I can make good teas with them.
Making teas with powder is also bad idea. The only powdered thing so far that I saw that works WONDERFUL to mix in water is ASTRAGALUS. Amazing, this stuff is so easy to dilute and tastes very good for me, a bit sweet!!
I guess you'll have to make a list of things you'd like to take (or your wife, if I remember well), and ask one by one (whole leaves/ bark or powder, that's the question you got to ask!!).
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Hi Selma, Thanks for the input - you obviously have some experience with this!
I agree with you that chewing woody bark/sticks is a bit difficult. This morning I was experimenting and put a gram of Artemisia Annua (cut/sifted) into my mouth and started chewing. It was hard to get much of anything extracted from it and had to spit it out.
Like you said, the best way to do sublingual is probably mixing powder into water and holding the water in your mouth for some time before swallowing.
On a side note, I have no idea how other herbs actually taste. Can you give me an idea about the taste of the following:
-Cat's Claw whole herb -Japanese Knotweed -Boneset -Houttuynia
I'm wondering about the taste since I will have to administer some herbs to my 3 yr old daughter soon, who is on amoxy for her Lyme. I'll probably be sprinkling the powdered herb on her food.
Thanks!
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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hardynaka
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posted
Oh poor you, Yaniv.
I also had to give herbs to my daughter of 2 years old when she caught lyme... I wish you good luck, lots of patience and imagination are necessary!
Mine is a trader by birth, so I traded with everything she loved (chocolate, biscuits, etc). Of course, she has no free access to these sweets, so that worked well. When I could, I used tinctures instead of powdered herb, mixed them in honey, it worked well.
She even took standardized andrographis (tablet made into powder) in honey like that!
As for artemisia annua, I love its taste in tea. But I think, if my memory is good, you need to do decoctions of about 5-10 minutes with it. If you do a search on my 'alternative babesia herbs' you'll find the exact time I used for my decoctions.
- Cats claw: I bought powder. I suppose it is a hard bark though, so no leaves to chew. Taste for me neutral (but more to bad)...I took in water for some time. It doesn't dilute well like most herbs/ barks. Daughter: she used Samento instead.
- Japanese knotweed: I bought in bark. Hard to chew. It makes a wonderful blood red decoction. You need cooking it for about 20 minutes if my memory is good. Buhner recommend a standardized product, but I had allergy to it, so I went to the bark. Decoction worked wonderful and tasted good. Daughter: she took the standardized tablets mixed in honey.
- Boneset: I took the tincture only, but I know many people take the tea/ decoction (?). Do a search here and in the Buhner forum. I got allergic to it, so I didn't take lots of it.
But while I took, I found it was wonderful for diminishing my chills, in a way I have never seen with other herbals (I was taking for example, cinnamon, galgant, cardamon, ginger etc, but these give immediate heat, short term, VERY different from boneset, that gets you changing your temperature from inside, slowly but for much longer term, without the "heat wave" from other hot herbs). I don't know how to describe its effect, but I found it very interesting. If I had no allergy, it was going to be a herb I would have adopted long term, I think. I would try teas, I suppose it tastes good (I think Maria took it).
-Houttunya: I have a pound in bulk here, but to tell you the truth, I don't remember if I took it or not. I guess, you have to do a search with my lymenet number to see. I took soo many different herbs that I forget some of them, specially if it was during my babesia time (total brain fogged)... My memory of those times is a bit blurred.
If I took it, it was not for long term. I do muscle tests to know if I can take/ should take things, so if it tested good, I took it.
I did some powdering of herbs a bit (with a pestle and mortar of stone), but I REALLY DON'T RECOMMEND THAT, as it's a total time consuming thing to do. I then encapsulated the 'powder' I got. Possibly, I did that with houttunia, but Gosh, I have to check my lyme diaries! If you'd like, I can taste it for you and tell you!
Why do you want to take it for? Borrelia, I suppose?
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Selma: Houttuynia is one of Dr.Zhang's main herbs for Borrelia. I heard that it has "fishy" smell. Is it possible you can taste a pinch from your supply and tell me? If it's not too bad I'm going to order some from 1st Chinese Herbs.
thanks.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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hardynaka
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posted
Yaniv, I just did it
It tasted nothing in my opinion. Not bitter at all, nor sweat. I felt even grass should have more taste!
It comes in leaves, but with many small sticks (I hope my English is correct). It's not a thick twig, but small, thin sticks of the plant.
So not 100% leaves, see what I mean? (leaves + bits of thin sticks of wood). It will be a sort of a 'job' to chew it (in case you still want to do that!!), because about 50% are merely sticks, the rest leaves.
It must make a good tasting tea, I suppose!
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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hardynaka
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Oh, forgot to say I didn't taste the sticks, these are maybe the ones containing fish smell??? Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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MariaA
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posted
Boneset tea= Buhner and other herbalists often recommend the hot tea in this particular case rather than pills. Generally that's because the hot tea is warming and makes you sweat. Anyway, I think it tastes OK- it's very hay-like and a bit bitter, and causes a tiny bit of nausea in the beginning, but it's OK after a while. I added flavored teas to it at first (like blueberry Celestial Seasonings herb tea) and later was able to tolerate it plain without the flavoring.
-------------------- Symptom Free!!! Thank you all!!!!
I'm looking forward to weaning my daughter off the Amox and slowly transitioning to the above herbs, gradually over a 3 or 4 month period.
My wife will probably re-start her Zhang herbs plus the above Buhner herbs once she is at a steady-state with the Mepron/Zith treatment.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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Keebler
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-
I hope you can consult a LL herbal specialist.
Some herbs will not have the same action or availability if chewed - and could irritate the lining of the mouth, throat or esophogus. Also breathing in some powder from the herbs could irritate the lungs.
Also, the dosage to do the job is important. That may not be able to be obtained by chewing certain herbs.
Herbs also may require going through the stomach in order to set the motion of their action - in action.
Some herbs will certainly stain teeth - some VERY dark. While this may be a lesser concern, tooth whitening can be very harsh and leave teeth very sensitive and may have other chemical reactions for those who are already challenged.
In the world of getting better we may say dark teeth would be no matter, but if chewing herbs could be harmful to tooth enamel or the gumline, etc., that could pose problems.
I hope you can consult a LL specialist in the field of herbal medcine. If you can't see one due to location, perhaps a phone consult can offer some guidance in matters of effective treatment and safety.
There are many herbal combinations that come as granules (sp?) that can be mixed with warm water. These are much more concentrated than raw herbs or teas yet don't have the alcohol of tinctures. I've used some of these for years - but my ND knows exactly how much to use.
The world of herbal medicine is very exciting and can offer health. However, expert advice is the best.
If you need help finding someone, you can PM me and I'll help you search. I actually know a couple people in the NY area if that would help you.
Good luck.
-
[ 25. November 2007, 08:39 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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hardynaka
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posted
Keeber, many people are taking the herbs Yaniv cited, in many different ways, but ingestion with water is one of the ways.
Buhner wrote about the use of most of the herbs Yaniv's asking about (except for Houttunya) and he recommends different methods of intake for each herb. Some, like cats claw, will be even improved if chewed (because of acid in the mouth) if my memory is good.
Of course, if Yaniv doesn't have Buhners book to start, it's better to first read it and then try to look for help.
Very few herbalists are familiar with most of Buhner's herbs. People have extreme difficulty in finding the right help.
Buhner himself recommends few herbalists, but not all of them that Buhner recommends are very familiar with all herbs either! So I guess, it's an extremely difficult job to find a professonal to guide you on these dozens of particular lyme and coinfection herbs he proposes.
But of course, if Yaniv finds proper help, it will be wonderful. So far, I'm in the Buhner herbs for now 2 years, I've seen very few people finding proper help and guidance on them...
If one reads the book and all the precautions, side effects, when NOT to take the herb, how to take it, I don't find it dangerous, really. My opinion, of course.
I did that to my 2 year old, under the help of two practioners (but I proposed the protocol, they only 'tested' the herbs for her and added more stuff).
Buhner forum is loaded with people that self treat. Going slow is the best, reading the book a must, and if someone finds proper help ON THAT PROTOCOL specifically, it will be wonderful. The protocol is still new, so it's still a hard job to find practioners with experience on it.
Selma
Posts: 1086 | From Switzerland | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I agree that each herbal practitioner would have their own special recipe, and would probably not abide by the Buhner protocol, which has a narrow focus of just Lyme + coinfections.
So if we want to do the Buhner protocol, I think we are pretty much on our own. The only support we have is the book (which I have read several times over), this forum, Yahoo's Buhner group, and PlanetThrive. I also emailed Buhner a question and he replied this morning!
There seem to be sufficient data points (i.e. people who post experiences on forums) to know that it is, at the very least, not a dangerous protocol, if followed correctly.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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djf2005
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posted
i agree.
bunhers book reads well, and is convincing.
although, i dont know anyone who has had success with it, and personally, i had no response on it for 3 months.
i know 3 months is not enough time to sufficiently determine a lyme protocol and as such i may try it again, but.... abx have been what got me out of the woods.
dont get the wrong idea tho, id love to slowly transition to just herbs/supps.
i am currently on 35 diff supps a day which have helped immensely.
i believe the key in healing any disease is immune modulation which can be accomplished by supplemts, herbs, hbot, etc etc
thanks
humbly
derek
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