Persistence of Borrelia burgdorferi Following Antibiotic Treatment in Mice
Emir Hodzic, Sunlian Feng, Kevin Holden, Kimberly J. Freet, and Stephen W. Barthold*
Center for Comparative Medicine, Schools of Medicine and Veterinary Medicine, University of California at Davis, One Shields Avenue, Davis, CA 95616
Abstract
The effectiveness of antibiotic treatment was examined in a mouse model of Lyme borreliosis. Mice were treated with ceftriaxone or saline for one month, commencing during the early (3 weeks) or chronic (4 months) stages of infection with Borrelia burgdorferi.
Tissues from mice were tested for infection by culture, polymerase chain reaction (PCR), xenodiagnosis, and transplantation of allografts at 1 and 3 months after completion of treatment. In addition, tissues were examined for spirochetes by immunohistochemistry.
In contrast to saline-treated mice, mice treated with antibiotic were consistently culture-negative, but tissues from some of the mice remained PCR-positive, and spirochetes could be visualized in collagen-rich tissues.
Furthermore, when some of the antibiotic treated mice were fed upon by Ixodes scapularis ticks (xenodiagnosis), spirochetes were acquired by the ticks, based upon PCR, and ticks from those cohorts transmitted spirochetes to na�ve SCID mice, which became PCR-positive, but culture-negative.
Results indicated that following antibiotic treatment, mice remained infected with non-dividing but infectious spirochetes, particularly when antibiotic treatment was commenced during the chronic stage of infection.
posted
Thanks for posting this, Tincup! I'm sending a copy to my son's neurologist who is on the fence about Lyme. Maybe this will bring him over to our side.
Karen
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AliG
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posted
AGGGGGGGGggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!
Now we need longer ABX studies because IDSA will say, "It doesn't work so why do it at all, just let them all suffer & die, so we don't get ABX resistant bacteria"!!
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tincup
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posted
Yes.. great news!
AliG... Shame on you for poo-ing our party!!! Next time you may not get invited! HA!
Actually... this is great news!!! Incredible news!
What it is saying is what all of us have been saying for YEARS!
It totally invalidates the IDSA guidelines!!!
The IDSA continues that same old stupid song and dance saying the spirochetes are NOT the cuase of our continuing symptoms...
And they insist when we are treated by THEIR protocols.. in spite of all our ongoing complaints ... that the "residual" symptoms we have (which they claim are no worse than the "aches and pains of daily living") aren't related to active infection and that we are CURED.
Well, cured or crazy is what they say.
This also goes with Dr. Fallon's study... compliments it very nicely!
It also ain't bad for the Attorney General's actions.
It proves the CDC, FDA, Yale, Hopkins, Hold the Mayo and all our favorite ducks are ...
Well.. either wrong or CRAZY!
It shows insurance companies that we are still actively infected!!! Cha-ching $$$
It also shows their "gold standard" culture tests are missing the spirochetes.
Yes.. this is a GOOD day for all of us!!!
If I had done this study myself I couldn't have gotten us better proof than this showed.
PS.. Your invitation to the party where we will be burning the IDSA guidelines will be forthcoming!
quote: It doesn't work so why do it at all, just let them all suffer & die, so we don't get ABX resistant bacteria"!!
I believe this is exactly why they say one "magic pill" will cure Lyme. They know it takes meds for a very long time and they are worried about the superbugs now.
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Bugg
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Thank you so much for this research and your advocacy...It is GREATLY appreciated!!!
Posts: 1155 | From Southeast | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Results indicated that following antibiotic treatment, mice remained infected with non-dividing but infectious spirochetes, particularly when antibiotic treatment was commenced during the chronic stage of infection. [/QB]
Non-dividing. I wonder what this is supposed to mean. Are we talking of spiros in a temporarily low metabolic form, or are we talking Bb cysts?
It would be interesting to know whether the treated mice developed symptoms after they were treated and whether the mice infected by the "non-dividing" spiros developed symptoms, after how long, and under what conditions.
Because if the "non-dividing spiros" just sit there doing nothing, not replicating and not causing symptoms...Can you just hear the IDSA?
It's an interesting study but I would want to read more before jumping for joy. Sorry
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
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TerryK
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posted
Not to rain on your parade but why were these studies never given credibility?
[ 04. March 2008, 04:50 PM: Message edited by: TerryK ]
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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AliG
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posted
Re: non-dividing
Spirochetes have actually been seen "mating", does divisibility matter? I believe there is a video on www.Lymediseaseassociation.org
My LLMD had told me a while back that he had actually seen them doing this. I told him that he was NOT allowed to tell me about that while I still had neurological symptoms because the thought of those little buggers "MATING" in my brain was just more than I could handle.
As for the IDSA - I don't think it's the rest of the public that they're worried about, probably just themselves & their family.
Sorry Tincup, I just hate IDSA.
How's this?
Better?
Thanks for the news!
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tincup
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posted
roro said.. "there are tons of studies that prove this same thing, and in HUMANS. why is this any different?"
You are right... it almost seems like this shouldn't be a big deal.
And admittedly, the IDSA has stuck their knife in every study that has said the same things over the years... and has discounted them for one reason or another.
BUT...
Their knife is not as sharp now. The more studies we have proving our point.. the weaker they become. Soon they will PUBLICALLY have no leg to stand on.
They don't have one now.. but WE are the only ones who know it.
As the studies continue to prove our point... the scale keeps tipping in our direction.
Eventually they will have ZILCH credibility and we can then move forward without their road blocks!!!
Reasons they kick studies showing our point are many. Here are a few.
1. No control group.
2. "Only one" study and not duplicated.
3. Done overseas and we don't "accept" them.
4. Using the wrong kinds of tests for confirmation. (In other words... not THEIR lousy tests)
5. Not enough participants.
6. Not done by an institution with credibility.
7. They hate us.
Now.. except for reason number 7 ... this study addresses all of these situations.
That is another reason this one is so important.
It also confirms the earlier studies that WERE done and discounted.
Soooooooooooooooooooooo...
Will this article and $3.00 get me a chocolate milkshake, french fries and a Big Tee burger at the local Tastee-Freeze?
Probably not. But it has it's purposes and is another feather in OUR cap.
It brings us one step closer to winning this insane war so we can stop the madness.
map1131
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posted
Great Tincup. Thanks for good news. But???? How long do we have to wait for the next step. And some of these red tape obstacles and studies?
How much longer? How many more will become infected? How many more children have to suffer needlessly due to a little tick bite?
I remember when I realized the truth 9 years ago. I would of never dreamed that 9 yrs later, nothing would of changed?
I know, I know! You've kicked me out of the party. I'm not in a party mood today. Sorry. Maybe I'll have a better day tomorrow and can come back to the party later?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Tincup
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Hey party pooper... oops, I mean nelly!
I sincerely wish you could be excited for this study being released. Sorry you are missing the joy!
You said.. "Non-dividing. I wonder what this is supposed to mean."
We haven't seen the entire study yet... and if I had $15.00 to spare I'd order it myself... but till then...
Perhaps the non-dividing means...
1. They only studied the keets under the microscope for 4 hours... and they weren't in the replication phase at the time?
2. Possibly they added that word.. and I've seen this done before.. so they could leave enough questions.. or an open one... so they can apply for more research grant money to continue this line of work.
3. Maybe the keets were "shocked" at the poor treatment they had been getting (Rocephin) and were not flipping around and doing the sex thing at the time.
4. They plan to release another study with the keets being shown to go into the cyst form.
5. Maybe they are going to follow-up with another antibiotic.. or extend the time the Rocephin is being given and see what happens?
Obviously there are many reasons that could explain this word.. but I wouldn't trip over it in the broad picture.
AliG
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posted
I DO hope that this study was PROMPTLY forwarded to Atty General Blumenthal!
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Tincup
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posted
Ok AliG... you're getting there. I guess you can stay.
Ok map... time to sit on you and tickle your feet till you giggle I guess.
You said..
"How much longer? How many more will become infected? How many more children have to suffer needlessly due to a little tick bite?"
You also mentioned you can remember 9 years ago.
I've had at least double that many years to wait. And for most of those years we have been no more than a speck of dirt under the IDSA's feet.
In this insane war I often wondered what is that ONE magic bullet needed to stop this craziness and get us all the help we need.
You and I totally see what is going on and how we have been slammed, ignored and told we are crazy. And YOU see where it is coming from.
You see their power, their money, their access to all of the institutions and teaching facilities. You see their grants, their quest and rush to the market with a vaccine to pad their wallets, and their patents and relationships with multi-million dollar corporations.
BUT.. shooting people is still illegal... yes, I checked again today.... so we have had to make our way through their mud and muck to be heard without the big guns and all available options open to us.
And we've had to do this alone.. with NO support... and with a handful of chronically ill patients and mothers of sick children at the helm.
We had no credentials, no groups, no money, little communication, no media.
We had sick kids suffering and needing care, no access to officials, no time or energy left over after fighting to get our own meds to keep us going...
And no way to make our points... and no studies to back us.
FINALLY the situationis changing. Fast enough?
ABSOLUTELY NOT!!!
Each day approximately 500 more people get Lyme in the USA... most of them being children.
That is why it is VITAL for EVERYONE to jump in and volunteer as much of their time, energy and money to help us put that final nail in the IDSA's coffin.
Obviously they aren't going to walk away like real men would have done... on their own two web feet.. so we are going to have to hog tie them and drag them from their ivory tower to be able to get the help needed to fight the war against Lyme rather than the war against the IDSA.
By the way.. this is MY opinion and I am not a duck.
posted
Don't think any number of studies will change the mind of Dr. Death and the IDSA mafia. They are committed to their lies and cannot admit they were wrong. Just look at the pack of lies and omissions in the IDSA guidelines. A reasonably intelligent high school student could deconstruct their guidelines.
So, I think what will have to happen is that there will be so much evidence that their colleagues and the world of medical science not on this bandwagon will just ridicule the black hats out of existence. Knowing how little love exists in medical circles for changing paradigms, this might still take a while. They have allowed a cabal of criminally incompetent people to become the "experts" on lyme; they will have to disown them.
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Tracy9
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posted
Tincup said:
"Obviously they aren't going to walk away like real men would have done... on their own two web feet.. so we are going to have to hog tie them and drag them from their ivory tower to be able to get the help needed to fight the war against Lyme rather than the war against the IDSA."
Tracy said:
I LOVE IT!!!
If you aren't a professional writer, you damned sure should be!
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
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I just forwarded this study to a kind ISDA doctor I dealt with at one point. I kindly stated "you indicated that there is no scientific evidence....here is ANOTHER study that suggests otherwise....what am I to believe?"
I will also be providing this to my PCP. Seems many PCPs are on the fence with regard to Lyme so some may be easy to sway....hey, worth the try.
Posts: 561 | From mass | Registered: Jul 2007
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daise
Unregistered
posted
Thanks, tincup!
You wrote: "It totally invalidates the IDSA guidelines!!!"
Bugg wrote: "Thank you so much for this research and your advocacy...It is GREATLY appreciated!!!"
I agree--thank you tincup and multitudes of others!
Hurray!
Yes, this news will fan-out in many ways and do good.
I'm still trying to figure out the non-dividing part. You see, I have chronic Lyme in the brain. But I'll "get" it.
W A H O O !!!
Can we tack a request onto the Lyme bill, asking for a national holiday?
Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I finally got this post to open and
!!!!!!!
No matter how well a research study is done there are always threats to validity.
I believe the greater the number that support our living and suffering truth,
The more "power" we have in open rebellion against the IDSA and ducks.
Keep 'em coming.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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JRWagner
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posted
Thanks Tinnacious!
Love dem little mousies!! Yum yum!
TASTEE FREEZE???? OH MY!!! I can't believe you mentioned this...my Grandfather used to have an Italian Restaurant and Tastee Freeze in my little hometown. I can still taste the great Meatball Subs (heros, Hogies,etc.) and Hot Chocolate Sundays.
Hold the Mayo...I like that one as well.
OK, I am coming to the party. What shall I bring?
How bout some Duck Sauce?
Chianti and FFFFFFFFava Beans?
Hell, I would have let the researchers slice me up a bit to see the same little critters!
Oops...James Taylor on PBS...gotto go. Great music: "I feel fine any time she's around me now"...almost forgot how good he is!!!
Help me.....
Thanks again Tinny... for not giving up, for EVERYTHING!
Peace, Love, and Wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
HA!
I can't keep up with all the responses! I am just happy to see others are happy.
JR... SO NICE to see you!!!
You said.. "Meatball subs and Hot Chocolate Sundays"
Oh my yes!
If you show up at my door I'd go right now and we could pig out! YUM!!!
So don't show up! Please! I ain't suppose to have any fun on this diet!
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Fin.. you are welcome!
Here is the info on the vaccine... from Yale.
"1999 Lyme vaccine (LYMErix), discovered by Richard A. Flavell, Ph.D., Fred S. Kantor, M.D., Erol Fikrig, M.D., and Stephen W. Barthold, D.V.M., PhD, hits the market"
So Stephen W. Barthold is the one Adam is referring to.
oxygenbabe
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posted
I believe there is a similar study in rhesus monkeys coming out soon that will be even more definitive (as they are an even better model for humans).
My suspicion is that the "nondividing" spirochetes went into temporary latency under selective pressure of the antibiotics and will divide later on when the correct trigger presents (could be reinfection with a new tickbite, could be stress to the immune system causing immunosuppression, could be another infection entirely causing immunosuppression etc).
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Fin24: I did a prelim search on Barthold and not only is he NOT anti persistence in Lyme but his own BIO
states his main area of study interest is "Host-agent interactions during persistent infections, with emphasis on Lyme disease, granulocytic ehrlichiosis, bartonellosis and murine helicobacter infections."
at UC Davis vet school
sounds like he accepts persistence to me!!
lets NOT lump him with (horrors gasp sputter ) Steer et al...k?
Good point, though in this case Barthold and Hodzic co-authored a similar study of mice in 2002 with ISDA authors Fish and Bockenstedt, with very different results. Back then they concluded that treated mice could be PCR positive but they were not infectious. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12404158
So this study represents a real change for them in terms of what they're observing. Hopefully it means they're more interested in scientific truth than politics, which is great.
Also when they say "persistence" as in that bio, they usually just mean the infection persists without antibiotic treatment. Same for "chronic infection".
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shazdancer
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posted
If you can stand the wait, the journal that is publishing this, Antimicrobial Agents and Chemotherapy, will publish in open source (PubMed Central) after 4 months. Then the article will be free.
-- Shaz
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JRWagner
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posted
Tinny...knock knock...
Who's there?
Sunday
Sunday who?
SUNDAY WE ARE GOING TO GET RID OF THIS DAMM DISEASE!!!!!!!!!
Yessir!
Great Post....Toasties that is...
Perhaps with the evidence mounting, we will finally "Win", if you can call having this curse winning.
How many of you long timers actually remember what you were like BEFORE Lyme?
If I did not have certain documents, I would not know who I was at times.
Peace, Love, and Wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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awesome post! It made my day and I have forwarded it to everybody I can think of.
This is huge.
As far as them worrying about superbugs that somebody pointed out above - resistance is coming more from the abx they are feeding our animals and then we ingest them - than it is coming from sick people who take their meds diligently!
I can sleep with a smile on my face tonight.
Thank you,
Luvdogs Posts: 589 | From Rhode Island | Registered: Jun 2006
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
I'll be sending this to the docs who misdiagnosed me, and I
think you should all do the same and keep doing it
posted
Great info! Thx! Keep it up. We'll get there...
Hm - life before Lyme? I could basically do things without suffering physical consequences, either at the time or later. In other words, I could do things mindlessly. And accomplish many more things, because of no consequences.
These days, every move I make needs to be considered before making it. It's life in s-l-o-w m-o . . .
Posts: 13171 | From San Francisco | Registered: May 2006
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quote:My suspicion is that the "nondividing" spirochetes went into temporary latency under selective pressure of the antibiotics and will divide later on when the correct trigger presents (could be reinfection with a new tickbite, could be stress to the immune system causing immunosuppression, could be another infection entirely causing immunosuppression etc). [/QB]
Yes, that's the questions I am asking. What did they do with the mice? What happened to them? Did the "non-dividing spiros make them sick at a later stage?
Yes, I suspect the spiros went into some form of latency under the pressure of the abx the mice were given. And these latent forms were infective. This is a VERY IMPORTANT DEMONSTRATION/CONFIRMATION.
But what we don't know is : did the mice become ill or get symptoms? I mean both groups, the ones that were initially infected and treated by abx AND/OR the other mice, the ones they infected with the ticks that had fed on the treated mice?
Another comment: I think some people think there is controversy over persistence. Everybody agrees that Bb can and does persists if left untreated, what the IDSA won't accept is that Bb can and does persist AFTER ADEQUATE ABX TREATMENT (which is about one month at the most).
Nelly
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Truthfinder
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posted
quote:Tissues from mice were tested for infection by culture, ... (PCR), xenodiagnosis, and transplantation of allografts......
....mice treated with antibiotic were consistently culture-negative, but tissues from some of the mice remained PCR-positive... .
....ticks from those cohorts transmitted spirochetes to na�ve SCID mice, which became PCR-positive, but culture-negative.
Am I crazy or is there something rather significant about this `culture-negative' thing?
Apparently, they could culture the original bacteria, but after abx treatment, they couldn't. And then, they couldn't culture any Bb from the na�ve mice which were subsequently tick-infected by the originally abx-treated Bb.
It sounds to me like the bugs were changed somehow so that they would no longer grow in the original culture medium...... hmmmm.....
Could this somehow explain why serologic testing is so inconsistent, or perhaps lend some credibility to the controversial notion that human-to-human transfer of Bb creates almost a new, distinct disease or....... what?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I think the fact that after treatment the "non-dividing" bacteria (that could be IDed as Bb by PCR) could not be cultured is consistent with the fact that they were in some latent form which did not grow and multiply.
I think it figures that if they are in a different form, they are a) not able to divide and grow (culture neg) b) not in a form which can be recognised by the immune system(seronegativity)
In this study the transmission was: ticks to mice? then mice to ticks then ticks to mice,
so it was not a mice to mice direct, but the abx received by the first mice would've rendered the Bb latent and therefore maybe invisible to the mice immune systems, because of the Bb having morphed into the latent forms and maybe also because of the immune modulating effects of the tick saliva.
Human to human transmission is yet another aspect, as there are no ticks to nurture the bacteria and no ticks to suppress immune reaction.
I wonder if ticks are able to "nurture" ABX TREATED Bb before they pass them on to another mammal host or whether they just pass on the same Bb they received (in latent forms?)
Worthy of note: TISSUES were PCRed and Bb in "non-dividing' forms were found.
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
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oxygenbabe
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posted
I'm not sure whether they killed and autopsied the mice or just took random tissue samples but I'd suspect it was the former.
If you can transmit to borrelia-free mice and to other ticks, its still infectious.
Bacteria have had these methods for years. They can't survive without latent forms. Babesia has something like that too--if you look at the studies on babesia, there is one dog study where they treat the dogs, clear them of all babesia (as far as they can tell/test) then take that clean blood and give it to uninfected dogs, a percentage of whom come down with babesia.
The next step in this type of study would be to let a tick feed on a mouse with "nondividing" spirochetes, then let it feed on clean mice. Since ticks only like occasional blood meals this might be a rather long study (a few years?) but if the clean mice got sick from ticks who fed on treated mice with "nondividing" spirochetes, then you've proven that bb persists and is infective.
I'm sure they could do one like the dog study too---just pass the blood but I think they should try to emulate the natural modes of transmission.
Anyway we already know this clinically.
The question is, is there a way to develop effective treatment? Obviously the antibiotics are inadequate at least in the amount given.
PS Tincup I sure sympathize with your point about your kids. I keep telling my bf he never really knew me in pre-lyme days when I was so much more adventurous, rapturous and whimsical. He says he still sees that in me but I have to say its very attenuated at least by my standards of globe-trotting and childlike wonder at the world.
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map1131
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posted
JRW, I haven't or won't forget what it felt like before the illness from hell struck me. I do have short periods that keep the memory alive.
First time it happened, I was Wowed and gave thanks. I give thanks all the time, because I am truly blessed through all this.
I will never forget where I've been. Also I will continue to fight until I win and hopefully millions of others too can win.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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adamm
Unregistered
posted
I will never forget what life was like before this--that
memory is the only thing that keeps me going.
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posted
Reservoir species like mice do not necessarily "get sick" from the microbes they carry. In fact, a German researcher published a paper saying that mice were not good research animals to study for immune suppression caused by lyme disease because mice have self-limiting infections. This same researcher was studying granulocyte colony stimulation factor combined with rocephin to treat the infection and modulate the immune system.
The fact that the infection in mice is self-limiting, though, would not seem to alter the transmission of spirochetes to ticks, as proof that they were still infectious.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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JRWagner
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posted
Tinny and all, I guess we will just have to keep fighting to get our "Real Selves" back!
Now, if they could only fins something that works!!!!
Peace, Love and Wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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quote:The next step in this type of study would be to let a tick feed on a mouse with "nondividing" spirochetes, then let it feed on clean mice. [/QB]
That's what they did, and the clean mice did get infected with the non-dividing spiros. So infectivity by these non-dividing spiros is proven.
I agree with Lou, mice not being close enough to humans re their response to Bb infections, they don't make a very good model for how pathogenic these non-dividing forms are likely to be in humans.
Yet, I would like to know what happened to these non-dividing forms after being in the previously naive mice (the second lot) a while (a few weeks/months, when the mice are under stress or pumped full of corticosteroids maybe. I would like to know what these non-dividing spiros looked like later on, and how they behaved (started dividing and numbers increasing, maybe reaching other tissues, other organs, the brain etc
Nelly
Posts: 416 | From france | Registered: Oct 2001
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posted
I am so tired of Doctors especially Infectious disease doctors who tell me my daughter has had adequate treatment.
First Lymes, then the doxy woke up a tumor in her brain, then post surgery she has contracted chemical menningitis. Steroids has masked the lymes. As soon as the steroids are stopped all the Lymes symptoms pop their heads up.
I know she still has Lymes in her body tissues! Now I have another doc telling me she has neurotoxins that need to be flushed. And ID telling me she has chronic fatigue syndrome adn she needs a psychiatrist. Will this NIGHTMARE EVER END???
I believe this article. Two weeks of treatment as far as I am concerned is not long enough for any one w Lymes!!!
Posts: 8 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2008
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posted
Add CHOPS hospital to the list of hospitals who believe it can eradicated w 2 weeks treatment. I want my kid back!
She was put on cefitrioxne by a LLMD. She had a relapse this weekend and we went back to the hopsital. They discontinued her ceftrioxne and tried to take out her mid line!.... Only problem was I had my OWN supply with me. SOME DOCS HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THEY ARE DOING! Luckily she is STILL on treament.
Her arms are killing her today so I know that this little bug lives burrowed in the tissues!
Does anyone know about neurotoxins adn cholestyramone?
Posts: 8 | From New Jersey | Registered: Jan 2008
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
Interesting discussion you guys.
I just read the study in full as I was out all day. Interesting notes in it... or at least I found them interesting...
Final conclusion..
"Our results show that spirochetes are viable, transmissible, and express antigen (based upon immunohistochemistry) following antibiotic treatment, particularly when commenced during the late stage of infection."
May I have this dance?
When addressing the spirochetes that survived antibiotic treatment they said..
"However, the residual few spirochetes appear to be altered in their ability to replicate, and this may explain the lack of inflammation that we noted in SCID mouse tissues."
There was no reason given for why they were not replicating... study stopped... however..
They are encouraging folks to contact their Congressional Reps and get them to make more funding available to the NIH for more studies.
In MY opinion... we've got enough now to slam dunk the IDSA treatment protocols.. and if we have to wait years for them to continue to try and prove what we already know...
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
More notes...
They are saying spirochetes are sequestered in collagen during the late stages, which is perhaps making them less vulnerable to antibiotics.
They are saying the mice treated with 30 days of Rocephin early in the disease had less infection than did the mice who weren't treated early on in the disease (3 weeks into infection was what they considered early infection- and chronic stages was 4 months after mice were infected).
They said in mice treated with antibiotics... spirochetes were typically localized to collagenous tissue of the great vessels at the base of the heart... and also in the tendons or ligaments of the joints.
The authors felt that to continue to have an antibody response (positive test) to Lyme requires **active** infection with a lot of spirochetes... and after treatment there may be a low number of keets.. but not be enough to ring the positive bell when getting a test.
They also stated that culture tests (the IDSA's "gold standard-
were negative in ALL mice- spirochetes or not.
AH! You mean the tests aren't perfect?
They tested the mice and found after treatment that "tibiotarsal tissue from 9 of 10 mice were positive for ospA DNA Q-PCR, as was heart base tissue from 8 of 10 mice."
That leads me to believe THOSE sites... the tissue and heart are the ones that should be tested IF we expect to find evidence of infection.. and we should be using this Q-PCR test.. and NOT the IDSA's culture tests.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
By the way.. this is 40 pages long with LOTS of big words... so bare with me.
Something I found interesting...
They had larve ticks. They used them initially. Then the next tests were done AFTER the larve molted, became "hard" and were then nymphs.
Kinda like a snake shedding.. or a soft crab. My question.. would any spirochetes be "shed" along with the exoskeleton? Just curious.
Anyhow..
Of course the mice that were treated with saline rather than antibiotics were more noticable infected... but we knew that.
They examined the joints (knees and tibiotarsi) and hearts of the mice and none of them had evidence of inflammation. ?? Hmmmm...
They said the ticks paired with the antibiotic treated mice could both acquire and transmit infectious spirochetes.
Bottom line... any remaining spirochetes can retain their infectivity... or are still infectious, can stay that way and can pass it along to another host later.
They stated there is usually a lot of spirochetal replication in the ticks after they have had a blood meal, but this was not seen in ticks that fed upon antibiotic-treated mice.
It also said that mice developed disseminated infections when they were fed upon by ticks that had been infected with spirochetes from antibiotic-treated mice.
Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
I'll make it through this... hopefully before day break!
I thought this important to mention-
They said B. burgdorferi DNA does not persist in tissues, unless live spirochetes are present.
Sooooooooooooooooo... if you are showing DNA.. you've got live keets.
They felt collagen is a "critical niche" for spirochete survival and it could probably assist with their ability to evade the immune system.
They found that the vessels at the base of the heart and ligaments/tendons of the tibiotarsal region and other joints are the preferred collagen-rich regions where spirochetes hide during the persistent phase of Lyme infection.
The previous studies also noted those sites to be preferred sites for keet hide-aways... as well as the skin too.
A specific strain of Lyme (Borrelia burgdorferi N40) had been shown to be different than other strains because it was resistant to erythromycin.
BUT.. that N40 strain is equally susceptible as other strains to ceftriaxone.
Ok brain.. don't burn.. just keep on going..
And last but not least...
The current study indicated that culture or PCR of skin and serologic response cannot be relied upon as markers for treatment success.
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