posted
It seems that people making blood-smears at Frylabs may get the result, "coccobacilli adherent to erythrocytes... suggestive of Hemobartonella or Mycoplasma spp"
I have tried very hard to find out what this means.I think the following sums up what can be said about it.
1.It is very unlikely a known Bartonella sp.However there might be serological cross-reactions to Bartonella antibody tests. 2.Some people with Hemobartonella findings in blood-smear seem to have a positive PCR for mycoplasma ?- suggesting that hemobartonella is a kind of Mycoplasma.Is it the same as the bacteria which infects cats and dogs?If so, this is a "new human disease"- and we need to pool knowledge about symptoms and treatment.
If you have had treatment for this bug please write about experience with treatment. (For cats the vets prescribe Doxy and Prednisone!) Also , it would be interesting to see if there is a specific pattern regarding symptoms.
Looking forward to a lot of postings Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:18 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
I did a search at the tope of the page for hemobartonella, and there are a few topics. Here is one:
posted
Maybe I'm wrong but I have the feeling that some weeks before the Fry tests came back saying only "Bartonella". Now, suddenly, there are more and more test results saying "Hemobartonella".
Is it possible that Fry's changed their opinion about what they find? Are they sure at all what they see?
Gale, I saw your pic and I don't see a difference between your Hemobartonella and my Bartonella.
Did some people in the past also got the diagnosis "Hemobartonella"?
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
posted
When these reports of results first showed up on this board, they said suggestive of
bartonella species or mycoplasma.
A few months down the road, it was bartonella species.
Now, it is suggestive hemobartonella (a no mention of bartonella.
Perhaps they are adjusting stains or resolutions.
Or, it may be what they are seeing in this group is different. That would make it just sampling variation.
I remember reading hemobartonella is not intracellular, while bart is. (and of course, that may only reflect the current state of knowledge).
Yet both adhere to the cell wall (those little black dots on the outside of RBC's in the photo).
It would seem that one could call and ask the lab how it is differentiated.
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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posted
Thanks for the answers so far. I think it is essential that everybody with a positive finding for hemabartonella contributes to pooling information.I dont think they are certain at Frylabs.Can it be found in healthy individuals also? Personally I dont think it is Bartonella .I had high and rising titers for bartonella Q and H (what are the chances of both at the same time?) in connection with a rash ,fever etc- but the reference laboratory in Marseille found the same samples negative. Also I have had negative PCRs for blood as well as skin-biopsies .Bartonella ABX also had no effect (Rif and Doxy)
So please 1.what are your major problems? neurological? muscles? joints ? fever ? skin? gastroentestinal, lungs etc etc 2.elevated CRP , red blood cells etc etc? 3. Treatment attempts. What worked - if anything?
Still hoping for more reactions Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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hshbmom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9478
posted
I called Fry Labs recently and was told that they've been doing additional DNA tests on those whose blood test results indicate Hemobartonella OR Mycoplasma.
The representative said each time the DNA test was done, the results were positive for Mycoplasma.
The representative stated Hemobartonella bacteria IS NOT Bartonella. These are two different species of bacteria.
The representative stated they don't mean "hemo"-Bartonella....indicating an infection of the blood with Bartonella, when they write "Hemobartonella" in the test results.
If you have questions, call the lab.
Posts: 1672 | From AL/WV/OH | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Haemobartonella is a Mycoplasma,right.?? Only few infections of humans have been reported yet.So plaese- if you have experience post it here.
Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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feelfit
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12770
posted
My Fry results said "sugestive of hemobartonella". When I called Fry to clarify, they stated that it meant "bartonella of the blood"
Not mycoplasma. Someone needs to get their information to be consistent. Three hundred dollars for a test that is ambigious is not good!
Anyways, my Hemobartonella symptoms are: lightheadedness, head pressure, killer headaches, numbness and pricklies of the face and sometimes limbs, vision problems, anxiety...
Probably more but that is all that I can remember now.
Hope that this helps, Feelfit
Posts: 3975 | From usa | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
What is the update on this very confusing information? What I gathered from the article Haemobartonella was thought to be rickettsial disease when actually now because of new genome information it is considered part of the mycoplasma family.
So it was never bartonella to begin with? What do the LLMD's say when you hand them this test? According to the article you need to treat this with tetracycline since it has no cell wall. Penicillin or other antibacterials do not work.
In a way its great they they have decided to do more DNA testing based on what they find in the samples. But then what? Mycoplasma tests?
I wonder why they cant direct you after the findings. Anyone a patient of Dr. Fry with this test finding?
PS. I have not had any tests from fry but would like to, this is puzzling for sure.
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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Personally I think it is fair to state that hemobartonella might be a mycoplasma-thing.Asking in the lab for treatment does not help- I tried.But if one could get in contact with Dr F. himself...?
So I think we have to face the fact that we are on our own.
Most important is to find out if anything helps. Cats are given doxy . For me it resulted in terrible pain which I dont think was a Herx.The only vaguely helpful therapy has been Azithromycin?
Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:42 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
What if these Hemobartonella/Hemoplasma are the �Bartonella-like Organisms (BLO)`` that Dr. B. is talking about?
What if the symptoms that we attribute to Bartonella (which should be then B. henselae) are also (or instead) the symptoms of Hemobartonella/Hemoplasma?
Could it be that Fry Labs changed their minds about what they see and could that mean that those of us who got the Fry diagnosis of ``Bartonella'' some months ago would now get the diagnosis of ``Hemobartonella'' if they would be tested again?
Is there anybody who is going to see doc F. soon and could ask about this? At least we should know what we are trying to kill so that we can choose the right bullet.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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1.A further reason for me not to believe in bartonella was that my titers went from 64 to 1024(bart H) and 2048(quintana) and still low grade fever only.You don`t have trench fever (quintana) without fever.
2. anybody else who had positive effects from Azithromycin?
Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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Of course I am not in a position to decide what people want to discuss here.
However, I think that mixing up bartonella infections with HEmobartonella/Mycoplasma spp is probably not productive- and is only going to confuse things. I realise that if you have been fighting Bartonella for a long time, it is difficult to accept that you really should have been fighting another thing- (my story). Bartonella belongs elsewhere, I think.
Interesting though with Erythr. Should work on mycoplasma.
Gale Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
Can't find the full article but I'll look some more.
J Infect Dis. 1992 May;165(5):976-7.
Haemobartonella-like microorganism infection in AIDS patients: ultrastructural pathology.
posted
There must be more people with this hemobartonella finding in Frylab. Anyway I suggest that the ones interested try to get an antibody test and even better a PCR for Mycoplasma and report the result here. That might bring us a step forwards.
Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
If Hemobartonella is indead a mycoplasma species that can explain why some improve dramatically on clindamycin which attacks myco. Read some posts from Mathias who says he has mycoplasma and improved by clindamycin longterm. Also Dr J in SC claims clindamycin to be no 1 for treatment of neuroborreliosis, so who knows.....
BLO MIGHT be mycoplasma, mycoplasmas do respond to fluroquinolones too.
Posts: 347 | From sweden | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
If Mycoplasma responds to Clindamycin then I definitely don't have Mycoplasma. My former doc was a fan of Clindy and I had LOTS of it with absolutely zero response.
What helps me a bit are Tetracyclines and Macrolides. All the rest doesn't seem to do anything.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I just found out that my Fry Labs test came up positive for MHB (Mycoplasma haemobartonella). Dr. M said that little is known about it currently. I'll find out more when I see her on July 1st.
Posts: 34 | From Kingston WA | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
hi welcome to the club. would it be an idea to ask for a PCR for Mycoplasma? Also.What are your symptoms and did you have success with any kind of antibiotic treatment?
Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I have a question regarding the Fry results....I plan on seeing my local NP tomorrow, since it is her office that received the test results. From what I was told on the phone [haven't seen them yet], I tested negative for all of the blood serum tests, but the smears showed Bart or Myco. My girlfriend who is an RN, couldn't understand how the regular blood tests would show negative, yet the same blood sample show organisms in the smear.
Does anyone have any info on how the tests differ, which results in different results?
-------------------- Craig Posts: 207 | From Tallahassee, Florida | Registered: Nov 2007
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Was on Tetracycline from January to late April, no change in my symptoms really except gradually worse. We went to a strong dose of Minocycline (200mg 2X daily) along with all sorts of immune and digestive support. Includes Smilax, Theonine, Wobenzyme, Probiotics, Quercitin, Vitamin C, D, folic acid, CoQ10, Muilk Thistle. I take the ABX with food, followed by the probiotics and other pills an hour or so later - this seems to wpork the best for me.
Most of the time I am fine but every 3rd or 4th week I go through a week of extreme fatigue, headache, sweats, bad taste in my mouth, brain fog, sleep disturbances, palpitations, higher BP, and mental effects from this (The Theonine is supposed to help this!). I can almost schedule these symptoms and have to to keep my business going. Been experiencing this for a little over 2 years. As soon as I started taking the Minocycline however, the symptoms flared up and so I think I was herxing then and hope this is a good sign.
Other symptoms all the time include occasion red spots on my arms, occasional eye floaters, and sometime brain fog in the "good" intervals. Occasionally insomnia. I also get red palms but none of the streaky stuff associated with Cat Scratch fever Bartonella.
We were being somewhat conservative with the Tetracycline as I usually do not handle antibiotics well and have allergic reactions. It is clear this wasn't enough and that something else was going on which is why I just got tested for all sorts of things. So far the MHB is the only thing positive in these new tests and some results are still pending.
Casey
Posts: 34 | From Kingston WA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Craig That is exactly the important question you raise.You have not been tested by serology for Hemobartonella/other mycoplasma? So the finding of Hemobartoenlla/mycoplasma spp points to the fact that this is what you have. (whatever that is- I presume that by "Bart" you mean HEmobartonella,which is not Bartonella,I think). I think it would be helpful for everybody with this finding to have a pcr for Mycoplasma. That would bring us closer to an understanding of what we are dealing with.
Craig Thanks for the posting. I recognise the problems with your arms- also the brain - fog. Personally I would keep an open mind regarding what is causing your problems.Lyme might just be the minor problem (if at all).If you have a positive blood-smear with Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma you have certainty regarding this.Finding out if Lyme is still active is a bit more difficult.
Mino seems to be very strong stuff for many people.Could it be that it was not good for Mycoplasma? Or is it an ongoing immunological reaction?
all the best Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:47 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
An interesting thing is that a LabCorp test from December found high Mycoplasma pmeumoniae IgG antibodies (457, positive is >320)
Am wondering if they were reading antibodies from MHB instead! Something to ask Dr. M when I see her on the 1st.
Posts: 34 | From Kingston WA | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Gale, I ditto get the PCR for mycoplama but realize that this is an uncultivable mycoplasma and if those tests prove negative you still may have the haemobartonella.
Casey what was the dose of Tetracyline that you were on for those few months.
Terry thanks for the older article (1972) I was able to connect it with a new test that is under patent for human haemobartonella. So so far there are no blood tests for haemobartonella. I guess only the slides.
I just want to add that thanks go gene sequencing 16s rRNa this old orgnanism has been re-classified from Rickettsial to Mycoplasma family. This is not to be confused with Bartonella.
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Gab, See Hshbmom's post above. They are doing additional DNA testing based on what they find.
If you had a positive Bartonella test then obviously they found antibodies.
Some of their tests are IFA antibodies and then there is the Stained Smear which looks for anything abnormal in the blood. And the giemsa stain looks for blood parasites. Maybe it is from those tests that they do furthur DNA testing for Haemobartonlla mycoplasma.
Could you tell us which tests you originally ordered? may be helpful.
So then there are 2 people now with a Fry Hemobartonella and a PCR positive mycoplasma
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Casey we are getting somewhere. I think it is very likely that your antibody titers refelct "Hemobartonella" at least mycoplasma.(and the list of mycoplasmas is extremely comprehensive).One must hope for/presume some kind of cross-reactivity between the mycoplasmas.However I wonder if the chances for a positive result aren`t greater with a PCR.
If many of the ones here with the H/M finding show that kind of results we can be more sure of what we are up against.
Thank you Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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quote:Originally posted by MarsyNY: Gab, See Hshbmom's post above. They are doing additional DNA testing based on what they find.
If you had a positive Bartonella test then obviously they found antibodies.
Some of their tests are IFA antibodies and then there is the Stained Smear which looks for anything abnormal in the blood. And the giemsa stain looks for blood parasites. Maybe it is from those tests that they do furthur DNA testing for Haemobartonlla mycoplasma.
Could you tell us which tests you originally ordered? may be helpful.
I had ordered only the blood smear. I don't think that they do further DNA testing when you order only the blood smear
O.K., I read Hshbmom's post but I cannot help thinking that it's only recently that they suddenly find Hemobartonella. Maybe I'm thinking too bad but I find it suspicious. If they found out that they had been making mistakes up to now they couldn't admit it.
We will see if in future there will still be normal "Bartonella" tests coming from this lab or if it will be from now on only "Hemobartonella".
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I would call them and express your concerns. Maybe they can take another look at your results and make a reccomendation
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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quote:Originally posted by MarsyNY: I would call them and express your concerns. Maybe they can take another look at your results and make a reccomendation
Thank you - I think I'll do that.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
I think we have got so much input now regarding frylabs- findings of Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma spp that we can proceed to the next steps.
1.What do we know so far? a.Of the (regrettably)not so many people with the H/M findings in Frylabs a few have postive pcr/antibodies results for Mycoplasma.Not enough to conclude anything. However, more people will post their results, I hope, giving us more to go on. b.If it is confirmed by post here that many have positive tests for mycoplasma we still dont know if we are all dealing with Hemobartonella, Mycoplasma... or different kinds of mycoplasma-infections looking the same under microscope.
So, waiting for more posts from people-what can be done?
I suggest A.That we try to establish if there are common clinical features among the ones with a positive H/M finding.(might be nonsense with most of us also having /having had other -tick- borne infections and we might be dealing with different mycoplasmas causing different symptoms --but worth a try).
IN OTHER WORDS I PROPOSE TO LIST THE 4-6 WORST PROBLEMS THAT YOU BELIEVE IS CAUSED BY THIS INFECTION.
would that make sense?
B.AND KEEP ON POSTING INFO ABOUT TREATMENT EXPERIENCE,PCR/ANTIBODY-RESULTS FOR MYCOPLASMA.
Gale
[ 01. July 2008, 08:50 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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suki444
Unregistered
posted
A LLMD in the UK very often sees chlamydia pneumonie elementary bodies (spore form) in many Lyme patients blood. I often wonder if these are correctly identified or could they be some sort of BLO - as in Dr B's guidelines? Or maybe he is correct in definition.
I agree it is difficult for experts to identify the organisms they are seeing...he also saw 'Babesia like' ring forms.
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posted
I just called the lab. I told them that I got a positive blood smear for Bartonella some months ago and that I have noticed that people are now getting the diganosis of Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma.
I asked the lab tech on the phone if he could confirm that I have Bartonella. Or that maybe I also could have Hemobartonella.
He said that it's impossible to say from a blood smear because these bugs look the same and to be sure I would need to do more "deeper" testing such as serology or a PCR.
Well, my serology says I had Bartonella henselae and I had Mycoplasma but both infections were over.
Bottom line is: the lab don't know what they are seing in the blood smears but right now they seem to think that it's rather hemobartonella/mycoplasma than Bartonella.
They also changed the picture on their website. In February, when I ordered my test they had two pictures on the site: one with Babesia and one with Bartonella.
Now, they have one with Babesia and one with Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma.
This means: everyone who got a positive blood smear for Bartonella CANNOT BE SURE that it is Bartonella. Could be anything...
Doing a PCR could be a good idea.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
"He said that it's impossible to say from a blood smear because these bugs look the same and to be sure I would need to do more "deeper" testing such as serology or a PCR."
Oh Boy,
So your serolgy for Bartonella and Mycoplasma was positive from another Lab?
Just trying to understand this, I thought that maybe they were finding something in the IFA blood tests which then prompted furthur DNA testing for the mycoplasma. ???
Did the people with a positive haemobartonella do the package profile as opposed to just the smear?
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
Thanks Casey. Since we are having this discussion did you have the(Fry) Package Profile or just the blood smears?
Posts: 465 | From New York, NY | Registered: Aug 2005
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I think you are right . They may have changed their minds about Bartonella vs Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma. Most likely because they have found the connection between smear findings and PCR for Mycoplasma- if that is the case?Also I believe Bartonella to an intracellular bug?
So I still hope the discussion here can go on without reference to Bartonella?Unless most of the Hemobartonella/Mycoplasma people are found PCR positive for Bartonella that should be discussed elsewhere.
[ 01. July 2008, 08:52 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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my serologies for Bart and Mycoplasma were done here in Germany. My titers for Bart are 1:64 which is considered an "old" infection here. My Mycoplasma titers were 1:183 some years ago - that was also considered as an "old" infection. The last test done for mycoplasma pneumoniae 1,5 years ago was completely negative.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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The more I read the more confusing it gets.If the lab tests for veterinarians are so comprehensive somebody must sit with a lot of knowledge about this matter.The only new thing about this problem is that it may be a problem for humans.
posted
I think we did both - I was just told this result over the phone. Will see these results on the 1st and have more details then.
Posts: 34 | From Kingston WA | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Hi You mean the medication (tetra and mino)? If so, how does tetra work??Or yours Gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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posted
thank you hshbmom thats exactly what I hoped for. I am going to get around to my list soon. I am in a major crisis now. Inparticular I find the stomach problems telling. yours Gale
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