Topic: To everybody who had a hemobartonella finding in Frylabs
Clarissa
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posted
Northstar asked:
"Is there anyone who has treated, and then have a Fry slide turn up clean? (when first slide showed the organisms)".
My answer is YES. My first fry came up with the suggested Bartonella spp.
I did a second smear 3 1/2 mos later and Bart was NOT showing on the color film.
Dr. S of FL (my LLMD at the time) wanted to take me off Bart meds (pulsing Zithro & Rifampin) (and a strict protocol of cholestyramine because of my biotoxin gene) but I insisted (politely) to be treated for 2 additional mos...just in case.
He agreed. Then I switched LLMD's, I was declared in remission and that because of NO clinical Babs symptoms AND muscle testing, he did NOT want to stir the buggers INSIDE their cage up...not yet.
Hope that helps and I'd be happy to provide further details for anyone!
moderate coccobacilli adherent to erythrocytes indicated with arrows. this is suggestive of Hemobatonella or Mycoplasma spp
(DONT REMEMBER IF I POSTED THIS ALREADY OR NOT!! IF REPEAT, SCOOT ON BY!)
THANKS FOR INFO!
Just received results Thursday - will see what dr recommends and with this thread in mind, will discuss.
Will post recommendation upon receipt!
-------------------- Seeking renewed health & vitality. --------------------------------- Do not take anything I say as medical advice - I am NOT a dr! Posts: 830 | From TN | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
hi what do you do about it? gale
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Clarissa
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I wouldn't have stopped the abx if I didn't feel better.
Almost 4 mos off abx and feel better everyday. This has been the first week that I haven't needed a nap all day, despite doing errands and such all day.
I feel calmer, "saner", no flares (but I stopped the Mesosilver for a bit).
I just can't overanalyze it. My LLMD said I was in remission, I have no clinical symptoms that are disrupting my life, so I'm not going togo look for trouble.
Let me clarify that I never had the tremors, shakiness, vibrations, sore heels, and the horrific physical symptoms that Alv has clearly described to us all so I may have a different strain than what you are dealing with.
Each patient has to be treated individually. There simply is no cookie cutter answer for us all. That's the frustrating part because SO many things come into play:
Strain immune system genetic dispositions candida male vrs female etc.
Sorry if this is not a satisfying answer...I feel your frustration because I've lived it!!
Clarissa
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A few people have been inquiring about details of my Fry labs and seem to be in disbelief that my LLMD declared me in remission. I thought I'd share as much details as I could to help you figure this thing out.
On a personal note: I HOPE and PRAY that I really am in remission but it's hurtful when people tell me, based on "their knowledge and facts of Bartonella", that it's probably unlikely that I'm in remission.
What a way to drive a positive soul off the board. I'm here to share, give hope and try to stay positive because I believe in MIND over MATTER.
If I start doubting my diagnoses (which it's taken me approx 4 mos to embrace and "believe" myself), then I'll have to stray from the board to stay healthy and positive.
PLEASE don't let it come to that...we all need each other!
That being said, here's more info:
I just looked at all three photos on the fry labs website several times and my picture lab results don't look like ANY of them.
The "closest" one is #3 but mine had was LESS little blue dots and the few that I had were attached to the outside of the cell.
It reads: Rare coccobaccilli adherent to erythrocytes indicated with an arrow (there's just ONE arrow because there are so few dots).
This is consistent with Bartonella spp.
I had my 2 dogs' bloodwork run and their pictures look similar to mine but with even LESS dots. Same suggested Bartonella spp.
Now ONE of my dogs' tests had another picture, similar to the others we received but the blue dots are much bigger and INSIDE the cells. 4 arrows pointing.
It says: Moderate number of unidentified organisms Observed indicated with arrows. Refer to veterinary pahologist for identification.
So that one is a bigh question mark. I may have a specialized lab in North Carolina run their blood again but for now, I am giving them each a teaspoon of mesosilver a day since, theroretically, it hits everything.
AliG
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My speculation:
Hemobartonella/mycoplasma = the BLO.
I'm thinking that, when present in sufficient quantity to be detected on slides, 3+ months of Levaquin would be needed to eradicate it. I believe longer Tx needed for the "more ill patient". (according to p.23 of Dr.B's guidelines)
I believe he also has other ABX which can be used if patient is unable to tolerate Levaquin, but the Levaquin has been found to be best.
I believe he also stated that there had been suggestions that Levaquin was more effective when a proton-puump inhibitor was added, but I don't have time to go check that out now.
I can't wait to see how my slides turn out, because, from the course of my illness & Tx responses, I do believe that I have the BLO.
I had done one month of Levaquin, but I think I had returned to being pretty symptomatic by the time the blood was drawn for Fry.
I'll let you know if they find it.
[ 15. July 2008, 09:50 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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hi Thanks for posting. I am very anxious not to confuse this topic.Please dont tkae any offense , but I think we run a big risk of that if we start comparing something we hardly know what is (haemobart/mycoplasma/heaemoplasma) to something (BLO) that nobody knows what is- except for some clinical features and that some can be helped with levaquin..Would make no sense at all,I think. yours Gale
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Hubby had 3 months of Levaquin plus a proton pump inhibitor (double normal dose) back in 2003 -- based on clinical diagnosis of BLO by the Dr B himself. No other BLO or Bart treatment for 3 years. Basically no change in symptoms at that time -- continued G.I. and neuro symptoms which progressed over next 3 years.
In 2007 Fry lab slides in both March and September showed moderate level of Bart (old wording). Had treated for Babs with low dose Quinine and Clindamycin and then Primaquine and Chloroquine and also 6 weeks of IV Primaxin at 500 mg 3 times daily for Lyme in between 2 tests so obviously those meds did not work either.
Obviously for hubby the prior Levaquin did not eradicate the organism. Did have significant positive response to Levaquin in 2008 (improved neuro symptoms)-- 250 mg for 1 month and 500 mg for 4 months I think.
Currently on other antiotics for Bart -- do not think it is gone. Will probably retest in August or September -- will discuss with LLMD next week.
Clarissa,
Were you the one who took the Seagate brand Olive Leaf extract?
Also think I remember you took Wobenzyme or something similar?
Vitalzyme does seem to be helping hubby's G.I. symptoms -- he can even take it on an empty stomach right now -- gastritis seems to be gone. Gradually increasing dose -- currently one cap with lunch and supper and an additional one cap 2 times daily between meals (4 in total).
I personally don't think colloidal silver will do anything for this organism. Hubby did oral for several months and then IV colloidal silver for 4 months or so (worked up to 4 oounces 2 or maybe it was 3 times per day) -- all in 2006 under care of an MD. He used the Argentyn 23 brand.
Bea Seibert
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northstar
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It was mentioned that Dr. F was to speak at a conference (med personnel only) in the Mid West, on July 12, which was yesterday.
It would be interesting to hear what he had to say, from anyone's dr. who attended, or heard what the topic was.
Northstar
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Clarissa
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Bea:
GenaD took the olive leaf.
I didn't take the other thing you mentioned, either. Never even hard of it. Sorry!
I was the one that pulsed zithro & rifampin with daily cholestryamine.
Mentally I am becomming more and more sceptical about my personal situation. Under impression of the many postings here with unsuccesful treatment attempts and my personal experience that "ineffective/the wrong" ABX treatment only worsens the situation I think our only hope lies in making the "heavy boys" interested. That implies things like involving the cdc etc which seems to be an unpopular thing here.
I shall try to keep a low profile.
All the best Gale
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AliG
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I was just thinking that, with BLO we know Sx & Tx but not organism, with this hemobartonella/mycoplasm we've found an unidentified organism, so perhaps it could be the cause of the Sx that seem to respond to Levaquin.
It is apparently something being identified in a lot of people who are having difficulty with effective TBD Tx, as is BLO. (Maybe it's not such a Zebra?)
I'm guessing that you & Dr.F have tried, and ruled out, a long course of Levaquin as effective against this organism.
Now I'm REALLY hoping they don't find it on my slide.
Thanks Bea-
I find it very interesting to know that your husband's been seeing some benefit from the Levaquin.
Perhaps he was one of the reasons that Dr.B found that longer courses may be necessary. ???
Maybe the level would have been high, prior to the three-month course. ???
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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fry on radio http://www.contacttalkradio.com/ "in short order" possible to find yesterdays broadcast today. very very very informative.Explains all the things discussed here. Can somebody download and make a file? gale
[ 15. July 2008, 06:41 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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northstar
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thought it would be good to have the main aspects of Fry`s interview posted here. (please add to or correct my interpretation )
1.The bug in question is a haemobartonella- haemoplasma like bacteria.
2.Fry sees connections between this infection and auto-immune disease like lupus but also he thinks it is one possible explanation for CFS and fibromyalgia.
3.People might be infected (vector borne) without falling ill. However trauma, immune-system disturbances etc may give the infection an opportunity to become symptomatic.
4.Treatment is very difficult- and it is presumably impossible to erradicate the bug totally.He treats with Azithromycine, tetracyclines,Fluoroquinolones sometimes works,anti-malarials,Biaxin and Telithromycine (Ketek) a more dangerous antibiotic.Thus he sees a vaccine as an opportunity for the future. (not for us ,of course)
5.They have not yet been able to identify the bug in detail.Next step is cultivation so that MIC and MBC for different ABXes can be determined.
6.D- vitamine levels are generally very low with this infection.D3 suppplements are necessary.
7.Magnesium,however, should be avoided.He thinks it helps building biofilm.
8.Arizona authorities are notified.They need more hard facts to get more involved.
9.He mentions that you can easily have this infection and other vector-borne infections without Lyme.But , of course, also with Lyme.
N.B I have left out what he says about Borrelia B.-Lyme.
yours Gale
p.s.my own comment. If you have rheumatological problems too dont be surprised if you talk to a rheumatologist and he will react we fury if you mention this bug as the explanation.A war has been going on among rheumatologists for ages whether infection is the underlying factor for some rheuma-diseases.
[ 15. July 2008, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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northstar
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Another discussion on healingwell.com Here are some interesting comments.
quote:- Zhang told me that HH has the ability to break up biofilms. Some of the macrolides are supposed to, too - but I will defer to Psinvent since he knows a lot more on that than me.
quote: that the biofilm presentation on that Dr. gave posted here on the website doesnt surprise me. He stated that Garlic is a biofilm buster.
(note: I am not sure which dr. poster is referencing here)
another poster:
quote:He talked a while about the "Bartonella-Hemobartonella". He does think that biofilms is the key to its survival. It thrives off iron in the blood. He stated that no one has been able to successfully grow/culture it. This has made it very diffiucult to eradicate. He thinks that the species acts a "parasite". To be very direct - I dont think anyone know's what it really is?!
Is a cure in the works? Yep. How soon....dont know yet. He asked me how I was treating it? I told him Zhang's....with no HH - yet? He is very open to treatements....if Zhang doesnt work...this is my options:
In the mp3 Dr. F mentioned "hemo" as blood cell...I understood this to mean that it is attached to, or in the RBC.
I think he said that Bartonella vinsonii has not been capable of being eradicated in animal treatment studies. It sounded as if this one was exceptionally difficult to treat.
Northstar
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northstar
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That is interesting about the mepron/zith sometimes being effective?
Extreme babs tx reactions also could be a result of this hemobart die off.
Northstar
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Think it would be helpful if people would be a bit specific about dosage, pulsing etc when reporting about treatment.
anyone who has tried Telithromycine for this?
anyone who has any idea why anti-malarias would work- I mean how does the drugs work work when its a bacteria and not a parasite?
Thank you gale
[ 16. July 2008, 03:16 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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pamoisondelune
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Hello, What is HH, please? Thanks...
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Alv
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OK ..I still have my opinions but I am not ready to include them here.I still have some reservations as I need some more time and some test.
SO FAR WHAT I FEEL IS TRUE.WILL CONFIRM ALL THAT IN THE NEAR FUTURE.But I think I need to share while just saw the post .Have not been able to sit and read yeasterday.
1.TRUE that a stresful situation can increase it.
2. True about magnesium .Based on My eksperience , my daughter and my partner.After liver flushes...the black rings , brain fog , agitation heavy feeling in frontal lobe got worst .
3.True you can have it without having LYME.My daughters case and seems as you have lyme -same almost patterns and feilings..and feel like you have rheumatoic arthritis.
4. TRU HH CAPSULES WORK .My self eksperince and My daughters.( she herxed and had killed some of them with 2 weeks challenges of using 5 HH capsules and GARLIC-Zhangs) .Also gave her smilax.
5. I used KETEK for a month.My liver hurted So badly, I was sicker as I stoped Doxy and took KETEK.( Now I am not sure if the bart or hemobarto was flushed from the tissues in the blood as DR J S says in his book).Muscle testing shows that my body accepts KETEK.I am causious though -do not want it yet -but have used it for 1 month.
6.True Levaquin works -As my body wants desperatly 1000mg to kill it but I have used 500mg.I felt better mentaly and physicly ever.Confirmed with 2 doctors my LLMD and my otehr doctor that helps with muscle testing to balance my body and test if one or the other drugs is working .The both test all the drugs and suplements.
WOULD NOT RECOMEND it -DAMAGES the tendons !WISHED I never used it!
7.True you need VITAMIN D3 not Vitmanin D perscribed from my LLMD.Muscle tested and my body said BIG no on Vitamin D and yes on Vitm D3 .
8. True that can show as rhematoic arthritis.Test for my son showed that and confirmed by Dr J.
Just Cephorin IV will not do it.I am glad I never went that route.ANd was hard to identify what it what.My crawling sensation was HORRIFIC! I felt BIG BUGS crawling towards my head NO KIDDING!!!
Best combo that helped me so far was Azithromax 600mg 1 times a day , 300mg rifampin 2x1( but I take it 600mg 1 times) , Levaquin 500mg ( 1time a day ) 10-15 HH capsules ( 3 times a day 5x3 ).Serrapeptase 1x500mg ( 1pill), wobenzyme ( 10 pills x1 empty stomak ), natokinase 1pills a day in empty stomak .
quote:Originally posted by galehane: anyone who has tried Telithromycine for this?
Yes, I tried it (400 mgs twice a day in combination with Flagyl for 40 days). I felt great. It was the first and only abx I ever took that made me feel better after a few hours !!!
Then my doc changed me to something else (don't remember why). Later I came back to Ketek for 80 days in combination with Chloroquine and Artemisinin. It was good again but the first combo was better.
Then all this fear about liver damage from Ketek came up and I didn't get it anymore....
I loved it.
Gabrielle
Posts: 767 | From Germany | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
If the hemobart uses iron as a biofilm, then why am I not anemic. I do not take extra iron, although I do Mg? Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10172 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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AliG
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Count me in.
I'm just copying & pasting from my other post. I hope you don't mind the extra "where from" info.
My LLMD just called me today to tell me that the Fry results came in after I left the office yesterday evening.
Chester County Hospital:
SPECT scan showed perfusion deficits & hypoperfusion consistent with Lyme.
LabCorp:
CD-57 was 1% & 26 absolute
Igenex:
Lyme Dot-Blot Assay - Positive (Note: only one sample was submitted = 45% chance of finding a positive. (2 samples = 65% chance))
IFA B.burgdorferi G/M/A = 1.40 titer (indeterminate)
Lyme Disease Western Blot - IGM = Igenex Positive & CDC Positive bands as follows: **23-25 ++ . . 28 + **39 + **41 IND . . 66 +
IGG = Igenex Negative & CDC Negative (**presence of IND double-starred bands may indicate clinical significance, recommend retest w/ another method or repeat in 4-6 weeks) bands as follows: **31 IND **41 IND
HGE - Human Granulocytic Ehrlichiosis IGM - 1:20 titer May indicate progression of disease and/or treatment. May suggest disease states.
Babesia Duncani- IGM - 1:20 titer May suggest evidence of infection. If sample within last 6 months had titer of 1:64 or higher, patient may be recovering. (My Babesiosis has not been addressed for >1 yr, so = positive?)
Stained Smear w/photos - Giemsa included - ""Rare coccobaccilli adherent to erythrocytes indicated by arrow(s). This is suggestive of Hemobartonella or Mycoplasma spp." (still waiting for actual photo, fax copy not really discernable.)
[ 20. July 2008, 09:21 AM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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kelmo
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quote: uses iron as a biofilm
Hemobart uses magnesium to create a biofilm. But, it feeds off iron in the blood cell.
If you look back and my posts from two years ago, you'll see that I first mentioned this information because my daughter was very ill and had to sweat out all the magnesium she took in after doing Epsom salt soaks.
She has never supplemented with magnesium since, and has never tested low.
When I first brought up the biofilm issue. There was an almost violent reaction. I'm glad people are now taking a second look.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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posted
hi Only one here postive for "mystery bug" has reported that she had anemia.I have haemo- values within normal.But when a lab tech (used to check smears for...) saw my Fry slide she at once remarked that it looked as if I was anemic because of the shape of the erthrocytes????
The magnesium problem is in line with my experience. Ginseng,however, should have a documented effect dissolving biofilm.
Gale
[ 16. July 2008, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: galehane ]
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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you can still listen to the interview.AS far as I remember they didnt touch on that aspect in detail. Don`t know what your smear looks like.Personally I thinks it is likely (judging from info in the posts above) that your smear would have been described differently now if it was more than 6 months "old".(See Gabrielle`s posting in the beginning discussing exactly this aspect and why this topic was started)
Point is ,however,that you would need additional tests (antibody,pcr) for Bartonella to rule out/confirm a bartonella infection.And that is also a problem.In one lab I had very high titers for Bartonella, in another negative.So there might be some sort of cross-reaction between new bug and Bartonella.But I believe from what was said that a visual "diagnosis" is questionable- that`s my personal opinion.(Bartonella is supposed to be intracellular and he mentions that it is hard to determine on a 2-dimensional picture).There is a smear posted above. You can compare yours to it.
But why dont you ask for a reevaluation of the old smear in the lab??
yours Gale
[ 17. July 2008, 03:50 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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kelmo
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Yes, he explains. It may take rewinding it several times. But, all it is is a reclassification of organisms.
His desire in narrowing this down is to now hope someone else comes along and finds a drug to treat it.
It's a very good interview, and, as a patient, have been following his labwork for a couple of years.
My daughter is one of the difficult patients. We are attempting to add Mepron, again, to her treatment plan. She is really wanting to get on with life, and this slows her down, but it may be necessary to truly make her way to a remission.
He told her this time to push through that four month wall that she hit last time. The herx was just too unbearable for her.
This time, she is starting with 1/8 tsp daily. And, it's already kicking her down.
Posts: 2903 | From AZ | Registered: Feb 2006
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AliG
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Kel- Is she taking Artemisinin?
Dr.S just told me that she highly recommends Dr. Zhang's Artemisiae, because she knows that his is grown for quality of Artemisinin content and her patients have seen good results with it.
She said she had asked him his recommendation for patients with extrordinarily difficult strains of Babs & he told her Copmine (his formulation also) in conjunction with the Artemisiae.
I wonder if that would be beneficial here. ???
She also told me that Hemobartonella & Mycoplasmas look very similar so they can't really be certain which one they're seeing. ????
If that's the case, here's a thought to blow everyone's mind. What if some have one, some have the other and some have BOTH?!!! If they couldn't tell them apart how would they know?
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Alv
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How about me that I have BART , Mucoplasma FERMENTAS and BLO ( probably might be combo of the above) ...that is what I have been thinking
If that BLO really exist than I AM THE ONE that have 3 of them.
Tha is why I am fighting so much ...and still fighting them.
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kelmo
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My daughter has two strains of bart and mycoplasma pneumonia.
She tried art. It just seemed too much for her at the time.
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cantgiveupyet
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I test negative for bart via PCR and IGM/IGG.
Have positive babesia fish, that fry didnt find on smear. I will look at the photo posted and compare to mine.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I was hoping that hubby would have his Fry bloodslide redone in August -- would have been a year since last one which said Bart (not Haemobart/Myco). Anyway, LLMD wants him to double doses of 3 meds before next appointment in 2 months and maybe then we will retest.
Not exactly looking forward to the next 2 months -- going to try putting hubby on a schedule where he increases dose of one med every 10 days.
He will be trying to increase the Rifampin from 300 mg daily to 600 mg daily, the Zithromax from 300 mg 3 times weekly to 600 mg 3 times weekly and the Alinia (parasite med used for Babs) from 500 mg daily to 1000 mg daily. He will continue on HH at 3 capsules daily, Bactrim DS at 2 pills 6 days per week and Minocycline at 100 mg daily.
As the saying goes I think it will either cure him or kill him. Babs symptoms have been acting up more than Bart lately so who knows how it will go.
Will listen to the interview tomorrow. Thanks for posting that.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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His desire in narrowing this down is to now hope someone else comes along and finds a drug to treat it. [/QB]
I think this,once more, underlines the need to raise as much awareness as possible among the "heavy boys" about this bug.Everybody should contribute, in my opinion.
Interesting idea that there might be different "versions" of this bug(s).Would more postings of smear-pics be sensible?
gale
Posts: 268 | From europe | Registered: May 2008
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Everybody, of course, is trying the best they can regarding treatment. Personally, I find the situation very difficult to deal with knowing the things we now know.In particular that there is no known "cure" and that even a little improvement is hard to reach. I think that progress regarding treatment still depends on the broad medical community and authorities recognizing that there is a problem.
Any suggestions??
Gale
[ 18. July 2008, 10:54 AM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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AliG
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posted
Anyone here have any dental issues? I came across a real nasty periodontal pathogen, which has coccillobaccill that can lyse erythrocytes and form biofilms.
Aggregatibacter actinomycetemcomitans From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Aggregatibacter actinomycetemcomitans is an oral commensal found also in severe infections in the oral cavity, mainly the periodontium.
A. actinomycetemcomitans, previously Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans, is a gram negative facultative non motile rod.
It is also associated with non oral infections.
Nomenclature
Recent studies have shown a phylogenetic similarity of Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans and Haemophilus aphrophilus, Haemophilus paraphrophilus, and Haemophilus segnis suggesting the new genus Aggregatibacter for them[1].
Importance
It is one of the bacteria which might be implicated in destructive periodontal disease.
Although it has been found more frequently in localized aggressive periodontitis,[2], prevalence in any population is rather high.
It has also been isolated from actinomycotic lesions (mixed infection with certain Actinomyces species, in particular Actinomyces israelii).
It possesses certain virulence factors that enable it to invade tissues, such as leukotoxin.
Virulence Factors
- Leukotoxin; kills PMN's and monocytes.
- Cytolethal distending toxin
- Immunosuppression factors that inhibit blastogenesis, antibody production and activate T-suppressor cells
- Inhibition of PMN's functions
- Resistant to complement mediated killing.
A. actinomycetemcomitans Serotypes
- a strain, for example ATCC 29523, frequently in oral cavity, variable leukotoxin expression.
- b strain Y4, most frequently in localized aggressive periodontitis, leukotoxin expression.
Detachment and Killing of Aggregatibacter actinomycetemcomitans Biofilms by Dispersin B and SDS
E.A. Izano, H. Wang, C. Ragunath, N. Ramasubbu, and J.B. Kaplan*
The periodontopathogen Aggregatibacter actinomycetemcomitans forms tenacious biofilms on abiotic surfaces in vitro.
The objective of the present study was to measure the susceptibility of A. actinomycetemcomitans biofilms to detachment and killing by the anionic surfactant sodium dodecyl sulfate (SDS).
We found that biofilms formed by a wild-type strain were resistant to detachment by SDS.
In contrast, biofilms formed by an isogenic mutant strain that was deficient in the production of PGA (poly-N-acetyl-glucosamine), a biofilm matrix polysaccharide, were sensitive to detachment by SDS.
Pre-treatment of wild-type biofilms with dispersin B, a PGA-degrading enzyme, rendered them sensitive to detachment by SDS and resulted in a > 99% increase in SDS-mediated cell killing.
We concluded that PGA protects A. actinomycetemcomitans cells from detachment and killing by SDS.
Dispersin B and SDS may be useful agents for treating chronic infections caused by A. actinomycetemcomitans and other PGA-producing bacteria.
Nataliya V Balashova, Roger Diaz, Sergey V Balashov, Juan A Crosby, Scott C Kachlany Department of Oral Biology, New Jersey Dental School, University of Medicine and Dentistry of New Jersey, Newark, NJ 07103; Public Health Research Institute, International Center for Public Health, 225 Warren St., Newark, New Jersey 07103.
The Gram negative oral and systemic pathogen, Aggregatibacter (Actinobacillus) actinomycetemcomitans, produces leukotoxin (LtxA) that is a member of the Repeats in Toxin (RTX) family of secreted bacterial toxins.
We have recently shown that LtxA has the ability to lyse erythrocytes that results in a beta-hemolytic phenotype on Columbia blood agar.
To determine if LtxA is regulated by iron, we examined beta-hemolysis under iron-rich and iron-limiting conditions.
Beta-hemolysis was suppressed in the presence of FeCl3. In contrast, strong beta-hemolysis occurred in the presence of the iron chelator, deferoxamine (DFO).
We found that secretion of LtxA was completely inhibited by free iron, but expression of ltxA was not regulated by iron. Free chromium, cobalt, and magnesium did not affect LtxA secretion.
Other LtxA associated genes were not regulated by iron. Thus, iron appears to play an important role in the regulation of LtxA secretion in A. actinomycetemcomitans in a manner independent of gene regulation.
[ 19. July 2008, 04:38 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
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interesting-but? I have massive dental problems and have had many teeth removed.The dentists are baffled. But is there any indication that this/these bugs would become systemeic- spreading to the bloodstream?It seems to be a common dental pathogene. I have read through the links but cant find the information.
Please clarify if possible- .As far as I can see the links deal mainly with what to to regarding treatment- supplemets besides antibiotics on a .... context.But which antibiotics?In the wikipedia sections it says tetracyclines.BUT maybe the stuff they recommend for breaking up biofilm would be a helpful drug when it comes to haemobartonella?
Gale
[ 19. July 2008, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: galehane ]
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AliG
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One of the links I posted did say that it can become systemic.
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AliG
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M. J. A. M. P. Pavicica, A. J. van Winkelhoffa, Y. A. M. Pavicic-Temmingb and J. de Graaffa,**
aDepartment of Oral Microbiology, Academic Centre for Dentistry Amsterdam Amsterdam, The Netherlands bDepartment of Clinical Chemistry and Haematology, St Lucas Hospital Amsterdam, The Netherlands
Received 12 May 1994; accepted 26 July 1994
*Corresponding author: Prof. Dr. J. de Graff, Department of Oral Microbiology, Academic Centre for Dentistry Amsterdam, van der Boechorststraat 7, 1081 BT Amsterdam, The Netherlands.
We investigated the influence of sub-inhibitory concentrations amoxycillin on metronidazole uptake of the metronidazole-susceptible facultative microoranism Actinobacillus actinomycelemcomitans.
The rate of metronidazole uptake by bacterial cells simultaneously incubated with amoxycillin was higher than uptake in cells incubated with metronidazole alone.
This phenomenon may explain the recently reported in-vitro synergic interaction between metronidazole and amoxycillin against A. actinomycetemcomitans.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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HARVEY A. SCHENKEIN,* SUZANNE E. BARBOUR, C. R. BERRY, BARBARA KIPPS, AND JOHN G. TEW
Clinical Research Center for Periodontal Diseases, School of Dentistry, Virginia Commonwealth University, Richmond, Virginia 23298
Received 31 January 2000/Returned for modification 15 March 2000/Accepted 30 May 2000
Strains of the periodontal pathogen Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans are variable with respect to display of phosphorylcholine (PC)-bearing antigens.
We have examined strains of A. actinomycetemcomitans with and without PC to assess their ability to invade endothelial cells via the receptor for platelet-activating factor (PAF).
Results of antibiotic protection assays indicate that PC-bearing A. actinomycetemcomitans invade human vascular endothelial cells by a mechanism inhibitable by CV3988, a PAF receptor antagonist, and by PAF itself.
The invasive phenotype was verified by transmission electron microscopy.
A PC-deficient strain of this organism was not invasive.
This property, in addition to the established ability of A. actinomycetemcomitans to invade epithelial cells, may provide this organism with access to the systemic circulation.
The ability of PC-bearing oral bacteria to access the circulation may also explain the elevated levels of anti-PC antibody in serum found in patients with periodontitis.
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AliG
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It seems this is a tough bugger. Even if that's not what it is that's being seen, perhaps it might have similar ability to produce biofilm. It might have similar susceptibilities and could be Txd similarly?
I have to go read again to see if the Amoxi/Flagyl combo eradicated it completely.
Objectives: Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans is a major causative agent of chronic and aggressive periodontitis.
Freshly isolated strains of A. actinomycetemcomitans display rough-type colonies and initiate biofilm formation on glass surfaces.
The purpose of this study was to determine the antibiotic susceptibility of A. actinomycetemcomitans biofilm during different phases of maturation.
Methods:
Using 96-well microtitre plates, we determined the antibiotic susceptibility of rough-type strain 310a to concentrations from 0.1 to 10 mg/L each of erythromycin, ofloxacin, ampicillin, cefalexin, tetracycline and minocycline during biofilm formation.
Antibiotics were added at the start of the culture (early phase) and after 24 h of cultivation (mature phase).
Results:
Adding 10 mg/L of ampicillin, 10 mg/L of cefalexin, 0.1 or 1 mg/L of tetracycline, or 0.1 mg/L of minocycline significantly inhibited 310a biofilm formation in the early phase, but not in the mature phase.
Although adding 10 mg/L of erythromycin, tetracycline or minocycline reduced biofilm development in the early phase, it enhanced 310a biofilm development in the mature phase.
Ofloxacin exerted a strong inhibitory effect in both the early and mature phases of biofilm formation throughout all experiments.
Conclusions:
The present study demonstrated that the susceptibility of A. actinomycetemcomitans to many antibiotics decreased after biofilm maturation.
[ 19. July 2008, 05:49 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Well, if iron is therapeutic, why am I not cured? Have iron overload problems due to one gene mutation for hemochromatosis. And after all the treatment for lyme and babs, still came up positive for this blo thing on Fry lab test.
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ali when you find the reference that it may be systemic please post it.I mean ,of course any tooth infection may become systemic but there are so many coccobacilli.Inparticular this one?? gale
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AliG
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From my first post on the subject:
quote:Originally posted by AliG:
The Gram negative oral and systemic pathogen, Aggregatibacter (Actinobacillus) actinomycetemcomitans, produces leukotoxin (LtxA) that is a member of the Repeats in Toxin (RTX) family of secreted bacterial toxins.
I believe that one of the links also stated that this particular one was more highly pathogenic than the others.
Nataliya V Balashova, Juan A Crosby, Lourdes Al Ghofaily, Scott C Kachlany Department of Oral Biology, Medical Science Building C-636, University of Medicine and Dentistry of NJ, 185 S. Orange Avenue, Newark, NJ 07103. [email protected].
Actinobacillus actinomycetemcomitans is the etiologic agent of localized aggressive periodontitis, a rapidly progressing oral disease that occurs in adolescents.
A. actinomycetemcomitans can also cause systemic disease, including infective endocarditis.
In early work on A. actinomycetemcomitans workers concluded that this bacterium is not beta-hemolytic.
More recent reports have suggested that A. actinomycetemcomitans does have the potential to be beta-hemolytic.
While growing A. actinomycetemcomitans on several types of growth media, we noticed a beta-hemolytic reaction on media from one manufacturer.
Beta-hemolysis occurred on Columbia agar from Accumedia with either sheep or horse blood, but not on similar media from other manufacturers.
A surprising result was that mutants of A. actinomycetemcomitans defective for production of leukotoxin, a toxin that is reportedly highly specific for only human and primate white blood cells, are not beta-hemolytic.
Purified leukotoxin was able to lyse sheep and human erythrocytes in vitro.
This work showed that in contrast to the accepted view, A. actinomycetemcomitans leukotoxin can indeed destroy erythrocytes and that the production of this toxin results in beta-hemolytic colonies on solid medium.
In light of these results, the diagnostic criteria for clinical identification of A. actinomycetemcomitans and potentially related bacteria should be reevaluated.
Furthermore, in studies on A. actinomycetemcomitans leukotoxin workers should now consider this toxin's ability to destroy red blood cells.
I'm sorry Lou - Maybe it has to do with that free-iron inhibits secretion but not expression of the Leucotoxin? Or maybe your iron is not "free iron"?
Perhaps my thought on iron was somehow wrong.??? I deleted it so as not to cause anyone else confusion. Thanks for posting that.
[ 19. July 2008, 05:51 PM: Message edited by: AliG ]
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Aggregatibacter (Actinobacillus) actinomycetemcomitans is a Gram-negative oral pathogen that is the etiologic agent of localized aggressive periodontitis (LAP) and systemic infections.
A. actinomycetemcomitans produces leukotoxin (LtxA) that is a member of the RTX (repeats in toxin) family of secreted bacterial toxins and is known to target human leukocytes and erythrocytes.
To better understand how LtxA functions as a virulence factor, we sought to detect and study potential A. actinomycetemcomitans proteins that interact with LtxA.
We found that Cu, Zn superoxide dismutase (SOD) interacts specifically with LtxA. Cu, Zn SOD was purified from A. actinomycetemcomitans to homogeneity and remained enzymatically active.
Purified Cu, Zn SOD allowed us to isolate higly specific anti-Cu, Zn SOD antibody and this antibody was used to further confirm protein interaction.
Cu, Zn SOD-defecient mutants displayed decreased survival in the presence of reactive oxygen and nitrogen species (ROS and RNS) and could be complemented with wild type Cu, Zn SOD in trans.
We suggest that A. actinomycetemcomitans Cu, Zn SOD may protect both bacteria and LtxA from reactive species produced by host inflammatory cells during disease.
This is the first example of a protein-protein interaction involving a bacterial Cu, Zn SOD.
-------------------- Note: I'm NOT a medical professional. The information I share is from my own personal research and experience. Please do not construe anything I share as medical advice, which should only be obtained from a licensed medical practitioner. Posts: 4881 | From Middlesex County, NJ | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dont know what to think. Have read through the material.But I dont think its likely that this bug is the bug we see in the smears.If it was,I think more of us would be dead from sepsis. I still think it is more likely that its a haemobartonella.... thing. But the info about biofilm might open perspectives??
gale
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