Topic: has anyone heard an update on the bionic 880?
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I agree it's good to be skeptical. There is alot of research on light & healing, though. I ordered the LightWorks by SOTA from Elixa. I should get it in a few days.
I would be happy if it helps with the pain in my back. I am going to try it out with the nosodes when I get used to how it works.
I'll PM you about our book biz - oxygenbabe.
I think education should be accessible to everyone who is interested. Some people use degrees to hide behind & actually know very little. In many ways, universities can be like big social clubs. It's fairly elitist. I guess that's just the way the world works...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
The only endorsement I need right now is GiGi. So we'll know in a few weeks.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
The harder you work the luckier you get! Posts: 965 | From Nebraska Cornhuskers fan in Massachusetts | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Some things to consider, he is a doctor stating he's put in remission 2000 people. The big question, If he's put in remission 2000 where are the complaints? Gabrielle can't find them on any site. If a doctor here in this country put in remission 2000 and announced it to the world and it wasn't true, what would his reputation be. Doctor's can't put themselves in a position of snake oil salesmen. They have to protect their ability to practice. He is on the agenda specifically about lyme at the German congresses. These congresses are the German medical establishment and he is their current lyme hero. He is a speaker at many of these congresses I've seen several agendas just for this year.
In this country it would be the same if a Dr. comes out of ILADs and had 98% remission with a brand new ABX. How much buzz would we have on the internet if wasn't true? How much information would we have if everyone was in remission.
One of the most important medical books is in German specifically about light therapy. Now we have an english version targetted to the institutions. If this is snake oil, this is a brand I hadn't seen before.
One last thought, a new treatment modality in this country takes 20 years to assimilate in our medical establishment.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Re: the only report you need is Gigi. Gigi is a wonderful source of information but Gigi is not always correct, and I'll just leave it at that. In addition, even if Gigi comes back enthused, $10,000 is a lot of $ so at that point I myself will still watch and wait.
As for the 2000 patients, who has proof there were 2000 actually tested with lyme? Maybe he means he muscle tested them and decided they had latent lyme, for instance, and maybe that is a completely subjective and inaccurate measure. Were they all documented with bullseye rash, known tick exposure, western blot, or any of the above? Maybe there were 200, not 2000. How long were the patients followed up for? We have nothing but his word along with--more interesting to me--a few firsthand conversations Gigi had with a patient or two. However, he also uses other modalities, such as what sounded like vitamin/mineral detox IV's. I can tell you that without my vitamin/mineral IV's I feel SO MUCH worse it is like night and day. My point here is that he uses a number of modalities and so the picture is vague.
In addition, as for negative reports, well, where are the positive reports? There is a well known Yahoo group called Eurolyme. If 2000 very sick lyme patients were cured in a small country like Germany, wouldn't the word get around? Wouldn't somebody be posting on lyme groups, especially EuroLyme?
As for the book about biophotons, we haven't read it, any of us, and we don't know what claims he makes, but unless in that book he claims proof that Bionic 880 pulsed at certain frequencies cures lyme, then it really is irrelevant to our specific situations right now, even if the insights into biophysics in the body is unique and important. Insights do not necessarily equal applications, or yield such applications immediately.
I'm just pointing out reasonable inquiries. That's simply because I've seen miracle cures come and go and I learned there are no miracle cures, but various things that can help.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I spent a while today searching Google UK & the internet for anything about the Bionic 880 & Lyme.
I really couldn't find much at all.
The company's website says there is info available on the internet but I couldn't find anything about it.
The company's website is kind of lacking of information - if you ask me.
I looked for practicioners, people's comments, anything.
The company's website also links the development of the device to Fritz Popp "semantically" but I don't think that he developed it.
I think the institution that Fritz Popp created may have given the device some sort of certification but I don't think he was personally involved in it's development.
There are many "new age" gizmos around & they all say something about Fritz Popp on their websites.
I have no idea how the company came up with the frequencies that they use.
Someone mentioned a while ago that they tried to get anyone to back up claims that they were cured & it all fell short. They even pursued Lyme groups in Germany but no one would respond.
I am still very skeptical but I do think that infrared light does have some healing properties. This is why I bought a LightWorks by SOTA a couple of days ago for $295.
As for this modality being a true cure - I'm a bit wary. I was also a bit suspect about it being a all around panacea - curing metal toxicity or other things. I guess we'll see.
I do think this modality has some great potential but I am still skeptical.
You would think if 2000 people were cured that this news would spread like wildfire on the web.
There would also be some "real" studies about this - not just a testimonial.
This modality may be being suppressed but I think there would be something out there about this other then the companies website & one other German doctor's website that I found.
I hope I'm wrong but I've seen alot of so-called miracle cures, come & go, too.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
quote:Re: the only report you need is Gigi. Gigi is a wonderful source of information but Gigi is not always correct, and I'll just leave it at that. In addition, even if Gigi comes back enthused, $10,000 is a lot of $ so at that point I myself will still watch and wait.
I want point for point how GiGi has ever been incorrect. I would appreciate a complete justification for it or don't make the statement.
As far as 2000 patients, Dr. Woitzel states that he has put that many in remission. You either take him for his word or not.
By the way, there are great number of people who don't post on forums, If you look at the number of lymies in this country, we'll say 2 million, we have 16 thousand plus members, do the math. In Germany there culture is much different then ours. They are far more reserved and far less likely to post. And if your in remission, do you announce it to the world or go on with your life? We have an expert on that, Gabrielle, who lives in Germany and can't get info either which way otherwise she'd let us know.
The doctor only works with lymies period. So would you suggest he's fabricating his practice too, just to confuse us.
So, it is your choice to dismiss a doctors words, I just hope others don't.
quote:In addition, as for negative reports, well, where are the positive reports? There is a well known Yahoo group called Eurolyme. If 2000 very sick lyme patients were cured in a small country like Germany, wouldn't the word get around? Wouldn't somebody be posting on lyme groups, especially EuroLyme?
Germany has a population of about 82 million, it is the 14 most populous country in the world. It's interesting you view them as a small country.
Another fact about Germany you should be aware. The German health care system ranking by the World Health Organization is 25th in the world. The United States with all its resources and money is 37th. Germany is the country that proved biophotons exist in nature. The biophysicist there is the foremost authority on it, considering he was nominated for a nobel prize for biophysics. He is part of a world wide think tank on biophoton research.
Oxygenbabe, I think you should review your facts.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I don't have anything against GiGi or Dr. W. We are all human & have different ways to go about curing ourselves, what we like, what works, etc.
It's a personal choice & we all respond differently to things.
I would just like to see some more solid studies about biophotons & Lyme, either from the company or from some 3rd party. There isn't a whole lot of information out there about this.
Other countries have been studying this for a while, too.
One example -
Illuminating the Mother of Qi
By David Rindge, DOM, LAc, RN
Biostimulation - life stimulation - and tissue regeneration1 are the first effects of laser therapy2 cited in much of the scientific literature.
How many therapies or drugs can make such a claim? Are there ways these healing benefits might be enhanced?
Intravenous and transcutaneous laser blood irradiation, as well as extracorporeal irradiation of the blood with broadband ultraviolet and other forms of noncoherent light, are widely practiced throughout Russia, Germany and eastern Europe.
Although some of these techniques may seem foreign to many readers, it is possible to achieve similar effects noninvasively.
Levon Gasparyan writes, "Unlike the treatment mechanisms of local laser therapy, the medical effects of photo-hemotherapy methods are determined by predominance of systemic healing mechanisms above the local ones, increasing the functioning efficacy of vascular, respiratory, immune, other systems and organism as a whole."3
Blood Is the Mother of Qi, and Qi Is the Commander of Blood
A small stimulus in the right place can have far-reaching effects.
When as little as 1 1/2-2 1/2 percent of the blood volume is irradiated with laser light, it may induce the entire circulatory volume to begin emitting biophotons.4
Imagine a wave of light expanding throughout the blood as more and more cells are recruited to emit biophotons.
This secondary emission, known as bioluminescence or chemiluminescence, may be far greater than the initial exposure to light.
Now imagine light streaming from blood cells throughout the entire circulatory system, illuminating capillaries inside the liver, brain, kidneys, and everywhere throughout the body.
The emission of biophotons5 by the blood itself is responsible for most effects.
Oxygen levels in venous blood rise shortly after blood irradiation, and may remain high for days or weeks afterward.
Blood viscosity is reduced, improving capillary blood flow and peripheral circulation. LDL and total cholesterol decrease, while HDL increases.
C-reactive protein drops. Red blood cell formation is stimulated, and white blood cell activity and numbers increase.
Blood irradiation may create the perfect vaccine, immunizing the body with its own invaders.
Only a small percentage of microorganisms are killed during the initial exposure.
However, during bioluminescence, all or a large portion of bacteria and viruses may be accurately targeted by biophotons.
Most of the body's own cells and friendly flora seem relatively untouched, and may even benefit.
Viruses, bacteria and many dysfunctional cells are highly vulnerable. It has been proposed that blood irradiation may be the most effective treatment available for HIV.
Blood Irradiation Is a U.S. Invention
Seattle resident Emmett Knott patented the first ultraviolet blood irradiation device in 1928.
By the early 1940s, it was being used with great success to treat bacterial and viral infections, and in many autoimmune and inflammatory conditions as well.
It has been investigated thoroughly in a great many clinical trials, and numerous articles about it have been published in peer-reviewed journals.
Positive results have been reported in the treatment of AIDS, appendicitis, atopic dermatitis, botulism, bronchial asthma, burns, cyanosis, emphysema, encephalitis, endocarditis, fever, gangrene, hepatitis, hypertension, infection (bacterial or viral), paralytic ileus, pelvic inflammatory disease, peritonitis, pneumonia, polio, rheumatoid arthritis, snakebite, thrombophlebitis, and thrombosis.
Ultraviolet blood irradiation has been reported to cure the common cold and flu in case studies.
However, with the advent of antibiotics and the Salk vaccine in the 1940s and 1950s, most of mainstream American medicine turned to drug therapies even though these did not exhibit ultraviolet blood irradiation's capability in viral infection or in autoimmune and inflammatory conditions.
Kenneth Dillon writes, "Biophotonic therapy is effective against many disorders. It was a serious lapse for American medical science to ignore the documentation - including various controlled studies that had been developed over 30 years beginning in 1928 regarding BT treatment of hundreds of thousands of patients by reputable physicians."6
The Russian Experience
By the 1970s, both laser therapy and ultraviolet blood irradiation were widely practiced in the Soviet Union. Intravenous laser blood irradiation is a Russian innovation, blending both techniques.
Originally used to treat cardiovascular conditions, it was quickly found to have much broader therapeutic applications.
Thousands of practitioners throughout eastern Europe, Russia and Germany use many forms of invasive and noninvasive blood irradiation.
The list of conditions being treated is exhaustive, and research is extensive.
Although specific effects and mechanisms may differ, depending upon the methods, dosage, wavelength, and coherence/noncoherence of the light source, both laser and ultraviolet blood irradiation elicit biophotonic emission by the blood.
Intravenous laser blood irradiation is easier to perform, as coherent light may be transmitted through a fiberoptic light guide directly into a blood vessel.
The most popular devices in Russia for this are helium-neon lasers with outputs of 1-3 milliwatts.
Treatments last between 20 minutes and 60 minutes, and a typical course consists of between three and 10 daily procedures.
To irradiate the blood with ultraviolet or other noncoherent light sources, blood must be withdrawn, anticoagulated, irradiated, and then re-infused.
This requires a relatively large needle and excellent IV skills. Ultraviolet blood irradiation has been practiced in the U.S. for more than 75 years.
Noninvasive Laser Blood Irradiation
An advantage of coherent laser light over all other light sources is that it can penetrate at red to near-infrared wavelengths to reach the blood noninvasively.
Whenever laser therapy is given, some blood will be irradiated.
This must surely account for many of the non-local health benefits that have been observed.
Two methods might be used to maximize the absorption of laser light by the blood noninvasively.
One may treat either over large blood vessels or over capillary networks (muscle, mucous membranes, sublingually) in light contact.
Although 20 milliwatts transcutaneously has been estimated as equivalent to one milliwatt intravenously if one is using helium-neon lasers,3 treating noninvasively is an art as well as a science.
Effects are less predictable. As in any form of therapy, outcomes will be maximized with knowledge, experience, and the right clinical tools.
Commentary
Laser therapy adds energy to activate immunity and increase the health of living systems.
When we understand its deeper effects, we will know much more about ourselves.
Laser therapy at low intensity is painless, without risk of infection or trauma, and has enormous potential benefits that deserve to be thoroughly funded and explored.
References
Simunovic Z. Lasers in Medicine and Dentistry. Basic Science and Up-to-Date clinical Application of Low Energy-Level Laser Therapy (LLLT). Locarno, Switzerland/Rijeka, Croatia, 2000, p. 279.
Laser therapy is the most commonly used term to describe the therapeutic application of laser light at low intensity.
Gasparayan L. Laser irradiation of the blood. Published jointly in Laser Partner (www.laserpartner.org) and Laser World (www.laser.nu), Oct. 1, 2003. Samoilova KA. Role of the Circulating Blood in Initiation of Therapeutic Effects of Visible Light. St. Petersburg, Russia: Institute of Cytology of the Russian Academy of Sciences.
Biophotons, coherent, monochromatic light emitted by all living cells, are discussed at greater length in the second article in this series.
Fritz A. Popp and colleagues developed equipment sensitive enough to measure and study biophotons in 1971.
Popp proposed that they control most, if not all, physiological processes.
The International Institute of Biophysics (www.lifescientists.de/ib_000e_.htm) coordinates international biophoton research and is a good resource for more information.
Dillon KJ. Close-to-Nature Medicine. Washington, D.C.: Scientia Press, 2003, p. 15. Bibliography
Dillon KJ. Healing Photons: The Science and Art of Blood Irradiation Therapy. Washington, D.C.: Scientia Press, 1998.
Douglass WC. Into the Light: Tomorrow's Medicine Today. Atlanta: Second Opinion Publishing, 1993.
Tuner J, Hode L. Low-Level Laser Therapy - Clinical Practice and Scientific Background. Gr�gesberg, Sweden: Prima Books, 1999.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
More -
Implications of Plant Genome Research to Alternative Therapies: A Case for Radiogenic Metabolism in Humans
Supporting Research in Bioluminescence If the theory of radiogenic metabolism as an alternative cellular energy source is plausible, then evidence should exist documenting both photon uptake and light emission from cellular sources.
The existence of such phenomena was first postulated and tested by Russian research A.G. Gurwitsch in the early years of the 20th Century. 12
He demonstrated that dividing cells emit ultraviolet radiation, that he dubbed "mitogenic radiation," capable of stimulating mitotic division in other cells.
Among the plethora of his significant findings, Gurwitsch was able to discern specific caloric requirements necessary to perform certain cellular functions.
He wrote, "To initiate the process in an amino acid solution, the photon energy should exceed 105 kcal/mol.
This energy may be supplied either by a single photon with a wavelength not exceeding 270 nm, or by two photons.
The energy of the first should be not less than 87.4 kcal/mol (326 nm), while the second can belong to the visible or infrared range with an energy limit of 18 kcal/mol, that is, around 1,500 nm. . .
We established that from 326 nm, up to the short wavelength limit of a quartz spectrograph, effectiveness of the UV radiation depends exclusively upon the degree of UV absorption by the peptone or amino acids, rather than upon the photon wavelength."
----
PS - I have nothing against Fritz Popp but you have to remember that Hitler was also nominated for a Nobel Prize...
Research in this area of biophotons has been going on for a while.
I think it was suppressed since the decision was to use pharmaceuticals for the principle mode of healing early in the 20th century.
It has been shown as far as at the beginning of 1930-ies by A.G. Gurwitsch and then by other authors that animal and human blood as well as nervous tissue unlike other animal tissues spontaneously emit mitogenetic photons [21,22].
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
Many good articles for free!
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
NanaDubo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14794
posted
Just for the record there is at least one person on the Eurolyme board who is being treated with the Bionic880.
Her practitioner does not have nosodes and she has found someone else in the UK that does and will start being treated there.
One of the reps for the Bionic 880 has emailed me and said there are not very many in the UK - far more in Germany.
A very good friend of mine went to medical school in Germany and from what she says, they just might be a little ahead of the game there (and have been for a long time).
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Great articles Sparkle! It is a shame science had just focused on one modality because of the profit model.
We could diminish the accomplishment of every nobel nominee and laureate with the Hitler comparison. It might be a little over the top. But when it comes to who's who on the nominees for the nobel peace prize, you shouldn't have stopped at Hitler.
quote:According to Nobel Prize nominating rules, any "professor of social sciences, history, philosophy, law and theology" and any judge or national legislator in any country, among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Peace Prize. Past nominees include Adolf Hitler, Josef Stalin, Benito Mussolini and Fidel Castro. Any "professor of literature [or] of linguistics," among others, can nominate anyone for a Nobel Prize in literature.
I think biophysics requires a little more merit from the nominating committee. One is based on scientific accomplishment, the other is just pure politics. I hope there is a difference for all our sake.
As far as waiting 20 years for the biophoton research specific to lyme. You willing to wait?
And how good is research, have you read "Cure Unknown", you can basically prove any bias through research. Speaking of bias remember the only way Fritz Popp could gain research money was to say he was going to prove light didn't exist in cells because of the scientific bias of the funders. One last point, research has proved there is no such thing as chronic lyme it is in our heads according to Dr. Leonard Sigal.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Bob, I'm not going to get into a flame war here with you. I am raising very reasonable doubts, and that does not mean that anybody has to get deeply offended. I just would never rest my decision on only one other person's testimony, and I'd wait for about six months to a year even on that testimony to be sure there was not a powerful placebo effect. I think suggesting that the culture of Germany is such that nobody who was chronically ill and miserable and is now cured, out of 2000 people, would talk about it because they are a reserved culture, seems far fetched. It is true that I don't take someone's word for something simply because they have an M.D. after their name. I am interested in this therapy and yet suitably skeptical of the claims. My personal hunch is it will not pan out as a cure for lyme or anything close to it and that it may however, be useful in fibromyalgia and pain. On the other hand, if you form a group of 10 or 20, they all do the therapy, and they all get well, I will revise my hunch, without any embarrassment.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
Tracy9
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7521
posted
Any reason we aren't getting any reports from GiGi while she is in Germany? Obviously they have the Internet there.
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Tracy, GiGi was pretty clear she probably would not post while in Germany, for her own reasons. I suspect the treatment to be 4 to 5 weeks and we just need to be patient.
Oxygenbabe, I don't like the term cure. We need to view the term "cure" politically as 4 letter word. Use that term and insurance companies, pharma, the AMA, FDA, and government starts putting sanctions. A better term is remission.
No one said this is a cure. We have a doctor in Germany who has 2000 cases in remission. As far as testimonials, we have a woman who was treated by Dr. W. when GiGi called the inn to stay, the inn keeper said the woman got well. We have an alternative healer in British Columbia who purchased the unit and healed himself and some friends and family. GiGi has a relative who got well with Dr. W. Gabrielle searched the internet for all the lyme forums in Germany and found nothing either which way. Gabrielle did find a woman who was treated by Dr. W. and would not comment one way or another.
I'll make the point one more time, someone does get well from treatment is usually pretty quiet about it, someone who doesn't is usually pretty loud about it. It is just being human.
It may be impossible to get testimonials if people don't want to provide them.
The only way we will ever know is some of us get the treatment and report back. I'm guessing thats how we will know. It's up to someone here to decide on being a pioneer or to wait on the side line.
Below you can see the Dr. is a speaker at a german Medical Congress (convention) in Essen.
One point GiGi made clear, don't call the Doctor directly.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I'm not all that impressed by a Nobel prize. If this was a different world, maybe it would be valid. I think it's just a big political football.
Al Gore... give me a break.
This doesn't diminish any contributions that Fritz Popp has made.
Seems that Germany may be more progressive about medicine. I don't know first hand. They are also quite familiar with homeopathy over there.
Borrelia has been there for longer than in the US. Some people think that's were it came from.
It was weaponized here by a German scientist during Operation Paperclip after WW2. But that's a whole other story...
It just seems after suffering with Lyme - if I found something that cured me, I would let everybody know about it!
The world needs all the good new it can get.
There is alot of interesting research about light as a healing modality. I'm open to new things.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Bob: "We have a doctor in Germany who has 2000 cases in remission." According to himself anyway...we have no documentation of stuff.
As I said, I've seen miracle "cures" come and go.
Testimonials is the name of the game from Xango to Kombucha to MMS.
Of course people shout from the rooftops when they get better from a difficult, chronic infection. I think it's quite common if, after struggling and suffering and finally finding something that helps you, you pay it forward. It really seems unlikely you then shrug and move on and never tell anybody what helped you.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Oxygenbabe your entitled to your opinion. I think its too soon to throw it under the bus. We just don't have enough information. And I totally disagree with your assessment, that it would be found in all the newspapers and touted as the next great thing.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
It may not be touted in the newspapers but it would have been on some message boards for people with Lyme or personal blogs.
Maybe it's just too new? I can't say.
I am very psyched about using light as a healing modality but I don't think the Bionic 880 has a corner on the market.
Light is light. People may go crazy finding the "correct" pulse frequency or wavelength. A few things are recognized - infra red wavelengths of 880 nm are useful for healing.
So, it worth a try for a few hundred bucks. Whether I'd spend $10,000 is another matter. I guess if I were wealthy...(?)
I'd also like to try the nosodes in time. I'm going to check out the LighWorks, first, & see if it's helpful.
I'm glad GiGi brought this to our attention & I hope everything goes well for her & her husband.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Gabrielle gave a hint as to why they aren't on German message boards. If you put anything alternative on them you get badly bashed. So people don't. They have one message board she said that what alternative but not very well frequented. Dr W. my be just word of mouth from support groups.
A couple of things to consider: his practice is for lyme only. He makes money by treating lyme patients, the more he treats the more money he makes. There is no positive feedback there is no negative feedback. For everyone stating we should of heard some positive feedback, what about the negative feedback -- none of that either.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
germany is way ahead of us in medicine. also in attitudes towards medicine.
they accept homeopathy and things like neural therapy as normal medicine, alongside allopathic approaches. insurance would cover all of them.
i have used the both good homeopathy and neural therapy, and they are excellent.
i also have had to have two surgeries done in germany because our system here just plain sucks, it is supported by corporate money and egos.
that is why so many llmds don't take insurance, in a nutshell.
i actually plan on moving to germany once i am better from the lyme, at least i am trying to.
-------------------- do your best to educate the rest because 9 out of 10 doctors don't know jack about tick borne illnesses Posts: 437 | From shawangunk mountains, ny | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
NanaDubo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14794
posted
Cudos NYJohn! I couldn't agree more about medicine in Germany.
I spoke earlier of my friend who went to medical school there over 30 years ago. Herbs and Bach Flower remedies were part of the STANDARD curriculum. Hint, hint.
I have friends that have gone to medical school in the US and wouldn't know a Bach Flower Remedy if it landed in there lap and if it did they would probably through it away.
The moderator of Eurolyme told me that they are just starting to hear about the Bionic 880 in the UK. I think in time there will be much more buzz about it there too.
Call it a hunch, call it whatever you want but I'm going and I have a really good feeling about this.
I don't know the reason for so little feed-back one way or the other. I do know that my body wants to be better and is leading me there instead of a hundred other places I could go.
Also, keep in mind that the culture is much different than ours. Maybe they just don't go around posting on sites all over the place about being cured or in remission or anything that feels private to them.
I encourage everyone to do what works for you but please, don't start getting down on the ones that aren't following your own protocol.
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Your quite a pioneer Nanadubo.
I guess if you look at it as a time line. Dr W. started this 8 years ago. In the first 4 of those years he treated about 100 patients for lyme and other issues. I don't think he established his practice on lyme until 4 years ago.
If GiGi didn't tell us about it, it wouldn't be on the radar here. It seems the same can be said of the UK and eurolyme. My guess, they found out from our posts.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Nanadoo I'm glad you're going. I of course want to hear about people who try it.
Bob, I never said anything *like*, remotely *like*, "your assessment, that it would be found in all the newspapers and touted as the next great thing."
Excuse moi? I did respond to your point that nobody would talk about it. I think people would talk, there would be buzz, there would be talk on message groups, postings, etc. I said people would pay it forward, not keep their mouths shut and just shrug and move on.
I also did not throw the therapy "under the bus." I am interested, hope people try it, will stay on the sidelines, and don't have high expectations and am not overly credulous from some testimonials I can't verify and a doctor's claim that 2000 chronic lyme patients became symptom free rather quickly with his treatment. Nobody should be credulous when they can't document something.
Re: medicine in America I agree its pits with managed care, HMO's and insurance companies. Its better all over Europe than here and in Australia, too.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Oxygenbabe, No, you didn't say anthing about newspapers that was my addition, sorry for any confusion. I guess I got too liberal with some of my words again sorry about that.
When something is this new even to the scientific community and is such a radical change in view, there may be very little written or said about it. Its, kind of like seeing 4 aliens in your backyard and they cure you of lyme, do really trust telling anybody about it. I believe this very situation can happen to 2000 people who are pretty reserved anyways.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
NanaDubo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14794
posted
"When something is this new even to the scientific community and is such a radical change in view, there may be very little written or said about it. Its, kind of like seeing 4 aliens in your backyard and they cure you of lyme, do really trust telling anybody about it. I believe this very situation can happen to 2000 people who are pretty reserved anyways.."
Exactly Bob!
Go Red Sox
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I'm gonna cross a lot of political lines and ruffle a LOT of feathers, but...
It is ironic that we are going to Germany to be "cured" when indeed,
about 60 years ago, most of you with neuro lyme, would be
eliminated.
They thought then persons who had "mental problems" had a genetic defect, but in reality, they had INFECTIONS.
I hope the link works. If not, "Google" did American genetic research lead to the nazis final solution...and read. Scary. Very.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Marnie -- what a great insightful post. Your are so right about the irony.
Nanadubo, wouldn't it be great to witness in box seats a Red Sox trampling of the Yankees lyme free. If we get lyme free, I'm there.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
I am so glad that individuals and cultures can evolve. I think some work overtime to make up for the sins of the fathers.
Sometimes, though, I have wondered if the IDSA doesn't just have the eugenics thing in mind a bit by ignoring the TBD situation and preventing treatment for those with lyme + co. Like they think we aren't good enough to have a healthy life again.
It is important to read articles such as the one Marnie posted so that we don't forget - and - so that we are aware that not everyone thinks alike.
Years ago, after a year of being bed-bound, a neighbor suggested the right thing for me to do would be to end my life. I was absolutely no good to society and it was clear I never would be, she said. It was my duty to stop being a burden by collecting SSD.
Oy, Vey. I'm glad she moved away, but this article brought that to mind. That person also thought that everyone in care homes and nursing homes should be put to sleep. And this was a person who was an accountant. In the early 1990's - west of the Mississipp.
It's hard to imagine that there are people around today that do not know how to measure a person's value - or don't know it's not up to them to do that.
Again, I am thankful to all those working for a solution so that life can go in hope of better health.
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
It scares me Keebler that you are right about eugenics. Unfortunately it is part of the human condition of un-natural selection.
What scares me more is the idea of population management.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
On the other hand, I've often thought that if I had been of another time, say traveling west in a wagon train, they would have had to leave me behind.
Had I been a ill cave-woman, I'd never have outrun a lion, etc.
Modern society has allowed me to live longer than in earlier times on earth. However, some of the modern inventions sure make life a bit harder, and less healthful, too (I'm thinking anything that makes noise!).
posted
I love the comment coming from a lymie that said if this works why isnt it on every front page and why doesnt everyone know about it. Well look at lyme its epidemic and not everyone know about it. Why are most things that cause illness like lyme or perhaps a new medical device with potenial to save many. MONEY! We now live in a world where human life is not valued and we are left aside while people in white coats with straight faces say that chronic lyme isnt real, doest that say it all. Why would these same people along with BIG pharma want anything like this or something else that would help to get out and be avalible??? MONEY! Its sad but true that this is the world we live in. It all comes down to any other lyme treatment we are going to have to go out and find out on our owns. So we have someone there trying to get more info and there are enough people here that are open to the fact that there might be something out there besides ABX to help us and thank god for those people that are willing to take chances think outside the box and sometimes be guniea pigs becuase due to that bravery eventually if not the bionic 880 but something we will find an answer!
Posts: 229 | From front royal, VA | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
This topic is getting a bit off course...
The Germans aren't the only eugenisists... Genocide happens in many cultures.
Do I need to name some of them? The Europeans wiped out many native Americans in North & South America, the trans-Atlantic Slave trade, the Japanese experimented on the Chinese, MK Ultra, the Chinese have sterilized many Tibetans, the Armenian Genocide, the Bosnian Genocide, Planned Parenthood, millions died in Russia during the revolution, it's going on now in Africa...
Did you know many German Nazi scientists were given free passage to America after the war so the US gov't could "capitalize" on any knowledge gained from their experiments? It's called Operation Paperclip. This is probably the beginning of weaponized Lyme...
I wouldn't point a finger at the Germans as a people. I am of Jewish descent & I've know some very nice German people.
I agree that there is something fishy going on. There are many conspiracy theories about depopulation. Check out the Georgia Guidestones... they are right here in the USA.
I think the problem is with the "Global" elite. It not just one nationality. If we keep fighting among ourselves we will never see the real problem.
Just look up in the sky - anyone notice the chemtrails?
----
Anyway- I got my LightWorks today & I'll keep everyone posted.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
sparkle7 I have been discussing the elite latley to! the chemtrails and about 2012 the microchips and how bush signed a policy to take away our borders call us north american union and turn our money into Amero. Also have you looked up at sunset and seen the other planet floating around up there? I have never seen my husband cry aslong as we have been together but when he saw what looked to be too suns in the sky he cryed out of fear, all that i tried to tell him he thought i was crazy and there is was right in front of him! we are blinded with reality tv and whatever else they shove in our face while in a room someone there are people that own this country decide our future on how much money it will make them, i wish people would stand up and defeand this wonderful nation. And now we have Blackwater who is a private army with full immunity how scary is that? lyme is just one item on the list!
Posts: 229 | From front royal, VA | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
1) "I love the comment coming from a lymie that said if this works why isnt it on every front page and why doesnt everyone know about it."
There was no such comment ever. Re-read the threads. If you are seeing comments where they don't exist, who knows what to say.
There is a difference between an effective new treatment for 2000 people and you can't find hardly any information about it, no documentation, no "buzz" about it, and "every front page."
Making up "quotes" that nobody said and then cutting them down is not helpful.
2) Re: eugenics, being left behind, that comment of your neighbor was ridiculous and sociopathic, otoh, yes, that's what nature does. Adapt or die is the rule of evolution and that leads to greater fitness for the species. So yes if you get sick, in animal tribes, too, you get left behind or killed. For the sake of the tribe. And as ill as we are there are people who just don't get ill from multiple tickbites, and that's evolution, too. As a species we adapt to our pathogens over time, but along the way many of us fail to adapt and get sick or even die. Pathogens over time seem to become less virulent...
3) yet we are in the middle of an epidemic that is becoming more virulent. More and more people are aware of this. Why is it not a consensus yet?Its a confusing picture, with multiple infections, no simple treatment, no consistent memory of tickbites or rashes in those who are ill, no good definitive test, no significant correlation btw positive bands and symptomology. Its very confusing and will take a long time to get sorted out.
4) This thread has gone so far off track. It's supposed to be about whether there is an update , on Bionic 880 which there is not, yet, and Bob has not heard back from the manufacturer on his simple questions, which is not encouraging.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Oxygenbabe, you are right, you said nothing about newspapers. I missed typed and I'm sorry I posted it that way.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Thanks Bob. Maybe my approach is not clear: be open to whatever might help without harming, but also retain skepticism as lyme has seen many charlatans and miracle claims come and go, because people are desperate and will spend money.
Therefore I am interested, even suppose its adjunctive for instance and helps fibro pain, that's good. I am also interested in learning why they chose those frequencies and I hope they will answer you, or you will persist in bugging them.
I think we can learn a lot on our own if we band together. I often raise questions but that does not mean I'm throwing a therapy under the bus. Only do that when it harms people (as Marshall protocol or salt/c) and then I'm very concerned. Hippocrates: first do no harm. I do have the Lightworks instrument here, I bought it because I injured my knee and also anyway I have the Chee device and thought I would like to have this one. I haven't opened it to try it yet though! I'm a little slow about such things. Off to get an xray of my knee now.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
NanaDubo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14794
posted
Could we please start a different thread about eugenics, Blackwater and all of that?
There may be great reason for fear but I am really trying not to live in it.
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
I agree Oxygenbabe the thread should be a more productive one. I do feel we've already turned over a good number of the rocks on this. We know whose studying infrared and why (nasa, universitys, laser research in Arizona, and of course the Biophysics Institute in Germany) and what results the've had. We biochemically have a better idea how infrared stimulate the destruction of lyme cysts based on Marnie's posts. We need a few more testimonials on the 880 to influence others.
I think owning a light works is probably a good idea for the long run 880 or not.
Nanadubo, I'll do my part of staying on topic. Eugenics is for another time.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
I've been posting...trying hard to show you all HOW this indeed might work...
Did the gov. ever run trials for DNP (ICHT) or Rife to cure diseases?
NOPE.
Are they currently running far infrared trials to cure many diseases?
We absolutely need to activate COX-1 -> PGE-1 -> HO-1.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Marnie I agree! Game set match on the 880nm. I've read everything you posted. Its more to the Dr. W. protocol using the bionic 880 we need more testimonials. Plus what nosodes to use. Sorry I confused the two in my post.
As far as the lightworks which uses the same LEDs as the Helio, Sparkle has already posted her first on it. Really encouraging news!
I'm going to purchase the light works soon. Then try to finish forming a group for the bionic 880. Then after treatment time post how many are in remission from the group. Our own try and report.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I think I mentioned before the unusual experiences I had with chee energy device. I don't know anything about the "strength" of its LED's. Its about $345 or $395 or something like that and has only 14 LED's that pulse on Nogier frequencies. If I turned on red, white, blue and infrared all at once and used it on certain acupucnture points it was extremely strong. If I just put it on red and infrared and put it at the base of my spine I would "kerplunk" into deep sleep and the darn thing would be on me for many hours, so that made me nervous. I really did not feel it affected lyme at all but it certainly affected neurotransmitter function and it seemed to stimulate acupuncture meridians just as well as a needle. Since I didn't know what the heck I was doing, I stopped the experiments.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
The LightWorks has a timer - it turns off after 15 minutes.
The different wavelengths have different effects on the body. It's probably best to just use one at a time.
I think blue is good for acne.
Red is good for healing wounds.
Infra red penetrates deeper & has effects on the meridians & a bunch of other stuff as I've posted on the other thread.
They are experimenting with using yellow for improving the skin - like wrinkles & collagen.
UV for psoriasis & other skin conditions - it also kills germs.
The others - I don't know off of the top of my head.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
or perhaps a new medical device with potenial to save many. MONEY! We now live in a world where human life is not valued and we are left aside while people in white coats with straight faces say that chronic lyme isnt real, doest that say it all. Why would these same people along with BIG pharma want anything like this or something else that would help to get out and be avalible??? MONEY! Its sad but true that this is the world we live in. It all comes down to any other lyme treatment we are going to have to go out and find out on our owns. So we have someone there trying to get more info and there are enough people here that are open to the fact that there might be something out there besides ABX to help us and thank god for those people that are willing to take chances think outside the box and sometimes be guniea pigs becuase due to that bravery eventually if not the bionic 880 but something we will find an answer!
Printer-friendly view of this topic