I think you got LESS IgG positives on your 2nd test?
Then you got MORE positives on your 2nd IgM?
If this is so, it makes some sense to me.
I mentioned before somewhere that permanent IgG Ab's are not really permanent. They tend to fade away over time due to lack of stimulation. This is indicative that your treatment may be killing off the bacteria w/o the aid of IgG memory.
And your IgM showing MORE positives could be because the bacteria are getting weaker...losing their ability to hide under a blanket of your own dead cells.
I would take it as progress.
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Thanks James!
I do get less killer headaches around the eyes but I now have more sinus issues which could of course be fungus not bart??? Hard to say. I think I still have a long way to go but I am not going to do more abx if I can help it. I do think I still have bart.
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posted
A cured patient should only show positives (Save cross reactivity.) on their IgG.
Thats why unexpected's test results were so perplexing to me at least.
However, maybe unexpected really is almost getting better? Maybe its some sort of aggressive way for the bacteria to try to hang on b/c they sense their numbers dwindling. Maybe they are all hiding, encysted, intracellular....That would explain the IgM results. But maybe they are still in high gear (Survival mode.) metabolically. Producing lots of proteins in an attempt to grow...but cant...so you feel sick from the increase in bacterial proteins?
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
My second test had more IGG positives then the first test
and less positive bands then the first test on the IGM but more +++ pluses.
I am feeling worse lately myself then I was say a year ago but I think I have things like possible EBV and candida adding to my toxic soup.
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23-25 IND Both 23-25 tests were IND? 30 + Both 30's were +? 31 IND this means both 31's were IND? 34 ++ 34 IND 39 IND 39 IND 41 +++ 41 ++ 58 + Both tests for 58 were +? 66 + 66 + 83-93 IND both 83-93 were IND?
IGM
23-25 +++ 25 + 30 - 30 + 31 IND 39 IND 39 IND 41 IND 41 IND 45 - 45 + 66 - 66 + 83-89 +
This is more +'s on the right (2nd) test? Except for the intensity on the 23-25 band?
This is that same mechanism that may be occuring to unexpected also. Unexpected's IgM went up also.
The ability for Bb hide from immunity is a specific mechanism that it may lose due to treatment. Therefore MORE epitopes show up b/c there is more surface area of Bb for your immune cells to "see".
May mean that there's a longer way to go...but at least your immune system is starting to "see" more of the Bb.
Maybe most of our IgM's initially increase. Then decreases as Bb numbers dwindle and go into hiding. However this may not guarantee that you actually FEEL better.
Thank YOu SO much for sharing this information!
Looking at enough WB's before and after treatment is VERY interesting to me. What type of treatment and how long is important too.
Coming up w/ these ideas has helped me thru another crappy night. Gives me something to do!
I'd love to see more of these wouldn't you?
We may be able to figure something out if we look at enough of them.
Thanks again.
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Thanks James. My second test was the one on the Left and my first test the one on the right which is a bit confusing.
I bet if you asked more people would posts their tests for you to look at. I am sure many people have been tested multiple times. Some LLMDs like to test often or at least I know one who does.
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posted
Or perhaps unexpected's real problem now is vitamin D deficiency, as I said in my first post on this thread.
Since vitamin D is necessary for complete cellular differentiation, including white blood cell differentiation, vitamin D deficiency at the time of a tick bite would cause a hindrance to the bitten individual's immune response and the normal response to the infection would be muted, allowing the infection to progress to a point that would make treatment difficult.
Unexpected said in her first post on this thread that her symptoms began in mid pregnancy, a time when the placenta is pulling the mothers vitamin D in to convert it to 1,25 dihydroxy D to give to the fetus, important for cellular differentiation, essential in a developing fetus. She (unexpected) would be at risk of vitamin D deficiency at that time.
You can throw all the antibiotics you want at Bb, if you are low in Vitamin D or if there is a problem in your vitamin D metabolism, your system will not be able repond in a healthy manner. You might feel different depending on how the wheels of detoxification spin in response to the antibiotic, but the underlying deficiency is still there, and the body will not be able to respond as it should when it should to the next threat.
Not everyone who gets a tick bite comes down with symptoms right away, maybe the variable is vitamin D status. Those with adequate levels and an intact vitamin D endocrine cycle will remain well, others will not. Toxic load (heavy metals,food preservatives, cosmetics and perfume) contribute to this and may muddy the waters. I have a friend that was feeling cruddy and despite taking vitamin D, feeling no better. Her level remained unchanged. When she stopped using an aluminum containing anti-perspirant, she began feeling dramatically better in a very short time...
Not only that, but Vit.D is necessary for normal calcium and muscle metabolism, when someone says they are bedridden without having sustained a demonstrable lesion in the nervous or musculoskeletal system, vitamin D status is the first question to be answered.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
DR L-- I go to a very well known LLMD in NY state. I think if he thought my over 50 symptoms were due to LOW Vit D, he would not be treating me aggresively for lyme and co-infections.
I'm sorry but I know a lot of people with low vit D who are not this sick... You have no idea what I have been through in the past 18 months of my life. To sit there and say my horrible illness that has taken my abilty to be a mom to my children and a wife was because of a simple thing as VIT D defiency... well that is wrong.
Don't you think I have been through the ringer with testing, going from doctor to doctor to figure out why I was so ill all of a sudden... I supplement with VIT D and eat foods in Vit D.... I do not think this is THE reason for my illness... Sorry Doc!
I think it is a little more complex than a Vit Defiency. Quite frankly I feel like you are minimizing the extent of my suffering by suggesting I just take some Vit D and ALL will be well. Geez I should have done that 2 years ago then.
Yes My VIT D is a low... Who on this board DOESN'T have a low level of VIT D?? If you read the Marshall Protocol website you wil see why we ALL have low VIT D. YES I did the MP.. It was a miserable failure... thats another story all together.
I dont believe low Vit D is the CAUSE of illness, I think it is the Damage being down by the infection that LOWERS the VIT D. In that I do believe the MP... not with everything else.
BTW... My VIT D results ... 25D=15, 1,25D=19 (before supplementing and adding D foods back into diet)
They will be rechecking my d levels soon.
So Dr L... Are you saying that I DONT have lyme?? I want to know what you are really trying to say to me..... If you don't think I do just spit it out and say so.
Sorry to be so harsh.. but I am sick and tired...confused and at the end of my rope.
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
I am not being dismissive at all, I am sorry you have suffered as you have, but I will wager that your vitamin D level will have barely moved by the time you get your next results. You may have Lyme, but I feel that that is only a small part of the picture, and when you figure the whole thing out, your body's natural healing response will take over and you will achieve wellness. Modern medicine will not cure you, your own insight will.
Those D #s are very poor, not only are you deficient in the raw material, you are deficient in the hormone form as well. Both levels must be retested. What are you supplementing with, keeping in mind that D that is added to food is likely no good? If you are taking D2, you will never get well. Did you test your level before you started the MP?
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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lpkayak
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5230
posted
i don't understand why this thread has gone on a vit D tangent
yes-it is important and a lot of people are low in it these days...BUT:
it is easy to test for and easy to treat (no...i am not an idsa doc)
it does have many symptoms that lyme has...in my experience the lyme symptoms were of a much worse intensity...
but just test it and treat it.
i went from 3 to 47 in 3 months of 4000 a day. i felt different in a week...but kept going per llmd til the number was up
just do it. it's one thing that can be fixed easily-then get on with figuring out the rest.
maybe you're not even low.
-------------------- Lyme? Its complicated. Educate yourself. Posts: 13712 | From new england | Registered: Feb 2004
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posted
DR L-- sorry I am very stressed out.. and being in this state of bad health for all this time is very scary and frustrating. I have tried everything, been to every kind of doctor, been diagnosed with everything in the medical book I think... I just want my life back.
I am worried about supplemeting D since being on the MP...
My levels during the MP were-- !,25D=29 and 25D=15
When on the MP my 25D=7... went up to 15 after I got off.
Everything I have read about VIT D is that it is POISON..used to kill rats.
I don't know anymore??
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Too much of a good thing...Any vitamin could be used as a poison, it is simply a matter of figuring out what constitutes the LD 100, or what would be a lethal dose to 100% of the individuals exposed. Vitamin D does have a lethal dose for humans but normal supplement doses are infinitessimally small relative to what the LD 100 or even LD 1 would be in humans.
In fact, the only cases of vitamin D toxicity I have seen documented are cases where the dairy improperly dilutes the vitamin D they put in milk.
With #s like that, you should not have gone on the MP.
Look for a fish derived 400 IU vitamin D supplement, start at one per day for a few days then up it by one capsule every few days. If you herx, stay at that dose until the herx clears and then continue titrating upwards to a dose of around 2000-4000 IU/day.
You must move slowly, longstanding D deficiency has likely left you with a calcium deficiency, as a level of 32 ng/ml is necessary for proper calcium absorption.
A few minutes in the sun will tell you if you are going to herx...
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Oh yeah, Angelica, Miso soup is verboten, however, if you follow the diet puristically, after about 3 weeks have a cup of miso soup, if it is ok you will see no reaction, if you experience symptoms in relatively short order, it remains on the blacklist.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
WHen I am in the sun I get pretty sick.. I feel lethargic and I even got a fever a couple of times. This NEVER happened before the onset of my illness, as I grew up on the beach and laid in the sun for hours everyday. I was a dun worshiper since childhood.
This sun and heat sensitivity started when I got sick... It ACTUALLY got worse while and AFTER the MP.
What is a good brand of FIsh derived VIT D that I can take??
I will see if it can help me, I just do not want to overdo it.
On then MP the goal is to lower the VIT D to VERY low levels... almost Nil
I am on a Wholefood Multi Vitamin right now and it says the Vit D as ergocalciferol 400IU. I take this vitamin 2x a day. It also has veggies, fruits, greens, and mushrooms in it.
Thanks!!
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Ergocalciferol is D2, it comes from a fungus, and is different from the vitamin D we make from sunshine, it doesn't fit in the vitamin D receptor like cholecalciferol.
Solgar makes the best vitamin D, but it must say "naturally occuring from fish liver oil". If you get sick in the sun, there might be one or two other deficiencies, or some unknown toxicity.
Check your morning temperature, if it is less than 98, you probably have an iodine deficiency.
Remember:start low, go slow.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: I think we all take Vitamin D supplements.
I drink Vitamin D milk like it's goin' out of style.
So it would have to be a genetic disposition toward the inability to absorb vitamin D.
Why do Abx help with a vitamin D deficiency?
We've almost all been helped by abx...at least a little. It's hard to tell due to the jarisch-herxheimer rxn.
Why would someone w/ a vitamin D deficiency get jarisch-herxheimer rxn's from abx?
Vitamin D in milk is, I believe, the D2 type. Your body needs the D3 type. The [litte] D2 that is absorbed from milk is inefficiently converted into D3 in your body.
You'd probably be much better off obtaining your vitamin D from Fish Oil (in bottle form) or from Chlorella.
When taking VitD supplements, be careful not do overdose. VitD is toxic in too large quantities.
The best source of VitD, obviously, is sunlight. But the UV portion is scarce in the northern hemisphere during winter season.
My recommendation is to drop the milk like it was the plague. There is absolute no nutritional value in today's milk; not even organic. In fact, it will do your body more harm than good.
The reason is that the milk is pasteurized and homogenized. Pasteurization has the following effects on milk: - it removes lactase, thus causing lactose intolerance in people, - the calcium bonding is changed, causing calcium to be inefficiently absorbed, - the shape of protein molecule is changed; this causes allergies in some people. - the fat is modified as well, further discouraging absorption of the nutrients, - nutrients in general are damaged at high temperatures.
The only good milk to drink is raw milk. But aside from that, the only other thing to drink is good clean pH and eloctrolyte balanced water.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
UnexpectedIlls I am so sorry you have been not feeling well for so long.
I go to a excellent well known LLMD that for whatever reason did not check my D3 levels.
After reading Dr. L's posts on this forum I added in some D3. I wanted to get tested first but for whatever reason that did not happen but I do still plan on getting my D3 levels tested in early Nov.
Just by chance after looking over the ingredients in the different D3 supplements at the Health Food store I bought the one buy Solgar not knowing that it was the one Dr. L is recommending. It has made a giant difference in my life by wiping out a major chunk of my depression.
I am now realizing my iodine is probably low too. My temps unless I have a fever run low and the poor person's spot test shows I am low.
Dr. L. is very helpful. Unexpected if you are open to it try some D3 by Solgar and at least see if it helps. I noticed a big difference the week I tried it. I hope you do too because feeling sunnier does help in many ways.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Dr. L. what is the best way to supplement Iodine? In what form and what brand? Thank you for your continual help. You are an asset to this board and your helping me figure out my D3 puzzle when my LLMD has not had the time has been very valuable to my health.
I didn't know there was D3 in Chlorella, but it makes sense sort of. I wondered how fish liver could be a good source of D since fish are under water where uv is unlikely to penetrate. It turns out that there is a phytoplankton that makes D3 and the D3 moves up the food chain!
Angelica, you make a good point, it takes a clear head to work toward wellness.
Wild seafood is a good source of iodine, as is sea kelp or just seaweed, consider it the spinach of the sea. You can get it at health food stores, in a capsule form (ground up kelp in a capsule, not a pill that may have fillers, binders and other ingredients) and the dose should be titrated up from a couple of capsules a day to at least 6 per day. After being on this dose for a while, if you notice a +ve difference, have TSH tested. You are as likely to OD on kelp as you would be to OD on spinach...
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Thanks I do have some Wild Harvest organic kelp but was not taking enough of it.
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: Cmike, right on!
I didn't know there was D3 in Chlorella, but it makes sense sort of. I wondered how fish liver could be a good source of D since fish are under water where uv is unlikely to penetrate. It turns out that there is a phytoplankton that makes D3 and the D3 moves up the food chain!
Angelica, you make a good point, it takes a clear head to work toward wellness.
Wild seafood is a good source of iodine, as is sea kelp or just seaweed, consider it the spinach of the sea. You can get it at health food stores, in a capsule form (ground up kelp in a capsule, not a pill that may have fillers, binders and other ingredients) and the dose should be titrated up from a couple of capsules a day to at least 6 per day. After being on this dose for a while, if you notice a +ve difference, have TSH tested. You are as likely to OD on kelp as you would be to OD on spinach...
DL,
Yes, Chlorella contains loads of Vit D3. And so does Cod liver oil...but NOT Fish oil (why, I don't know, but that's just so!).
Everyone,
Be careful where you obtain your Chlorella from. Generic Chlorella, I've heard, may not deliver all the benefits of Chlorella. Do some research before you pick one. Chlorella is also a magnificent detoxifier, so it pays off getting a good brand.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The reason cod liver or fish liver oil does have D and plain fish oil doesn't is that the former is a product distilled from the liver of the fish, where fat soluble vitamins are stored, and fish oil is distilled from the leftover parts of the fish, except the liver. There probably is some trace D in the fish oil, but not enough to trigger lab thresholds. Fish oil does often list Vit E as an ingredient. Go figure.
[ 20. October 2008, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: DoctorLuddite ]
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Michael are there some brands of Chlorella you prefer? I have been taking some by Source Naturals due to the high cost of others.
I spend a ton of money on supplements each month. I do take cod liver oil too by Nordic Naturals.
Unexpected maybe try something for BIOFILMS like MucoStop and see if you notice a difference.
The ones I'm currently using were purchased at mercola.com. I have good faith in these. But it really is almost impossible to tell if they are good or bad.
Next time I'm inclined to buy them from ultralife.com. Another outfit I'm trusting of.
I don't know anything about source naturals. Have not heard anything bad about them. Generally speaking, good Chlorella is what's termed "cracked cell wall" Chlorella.
Once you start taking Chlorella, which is a lot cheaper than Cod Liver oil, you'll still get all your Vit D3 supplements. In fact, I'd think you can ditch the usually expensive Cod Liver oil which really only gives you Omega 3 EPA/DHA and which you can get from elsewhere anyway, such as organic free range eggs and flax oil.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Flax oil does have omega 3 but it requires 3 different enzymes to convert it into active DHA, and those enzymes are also used by omega 6 oils to generate proinflammatory cytokines. Omega 6 oils are present in most people in industrialized societies in a 20:1 ratio to omega 3 oils so it isn't hard to figure out which oil will out compete for enzyme binding. After you have been taking lots of fish oil for a while is when to try flax.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
M. thank you for the info on the Chlorella. The kind I take does have a broken cell wall.
I noticed Solgar's D3 made a big improvement in my well being when I added it in so I do not think Chlorella does contain enough D3 or at least not for me. I think supplementing with added D3 for many chlorella users would still be advisable.
Nana Dubo mentioned the costly chlorella she was taking did not test out energy wise for her in Germany yet charcoal did so I guess everyone's body does differently on different supplements.
I think Source Naturals does make some good products and I know their product development person does try to make quality products in general and he is picky about the raw materials he uses. If only he would stop using magnesium stearate in some products I would be even happier with his line.
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Luddite there is NO genuine cod liver oil available.
By law they are allowed to call various fish oils cod liver oil IF they add in synthetic Vit D and A to the amounts that are regulated.
Please do your research its just fish oil with synthetic vitamins added. I researched this and there is not one genuine cod liver oil commercially available. If you find one please let me know. I did extensive research last year.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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posted
So does Vitamin D prob's cause nerve damage and inflammation that would mimic carpel tunnel in both arms and the analogous problems in the lower torso?
Also brain swelling and abnormal MRI's, cluster headaches?
Just about anything and everything causes "anxiety" and "insomnia"....but to have measurable neural damage in the CNS and PNS is another thing.
Also, would Vitamin D dysfunction cause chronic low grade fever, and extreme hyperhidrosis?
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
A nerve cell is not a finished product of the body, it is a component that is constantly rejuvenating itself by downloading its genetic info to produce the components that make it what it is. That being said, a deficiency of D may cause the under production of some cell constituent, or regulating enzyme so that some remodeling process fails to occur or goes too far so that damage does occur, or it weakens the immune system so that some agent from outside of the body (Lyme, TB, Syphilis, HIV among many others) can gain access and create its own kind of damage. Vitamin D deficiency or overload (yes, that too is possible) is not the only thing that can disrupt the immune system. MRI's are great at telling what, but lousy at telling why, but it is in the latter that the best answer lies.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
James did you notice I posted my WB results again in another post starting with the first test first this time.
Thanks,
A.
Calcium Fluorite by Hylands in a 6 x dose works wonders for carpel tunnel.
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posted
I ACTUALLy don't have carpel tunnel in both hands...however my NERVE CONDUCTANCE test showed NERVE DAMAGE and inflammation that are consistent w/ those that DO have carpel tunnel.
What the test is showing is moderate, but uniform damage and inflammation in all my nerves of teh PNS.
This is why my LLMD is putting me on IV abx now.
I didn't see your WB's? Where are they posted again?
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
So you're saying Lyme, Bab's, Bart. are opportunistic, and that Vitamin D prob's ALLOWS them to flourish...while in people w/o Vitamin D prob's...these bacteria are held in check. Due to their NORMALLY functioning immune systems.
Kinda sounds like you're reaching on that.
I agree that more than 1/2 of the nations population has been exposed to Lyme, and therefore would test + for SOME Lyme Ab's. ANd that more than 1/2 people in the nation have Vitamin D prob's as well.
However, I have lived in Arizona, and So. California for the last 15 years. I get tons of sun, drink tons of fortified milk, eat a wide diversity of foods, and take a multivitamin everyday.
None of it helped me from developing the disease. In fact I noticed the onset of symptoms when I moved away from Buffalo, NY. I went to sunny Arizona...then started getting sick.
So is it too much Vitamin D? I've had soooo much blood work its sickening! When I got blood drawn They filled an ENTIRE RACK of tubes (30-40 tubes!). I'm sure they tested for it...unless it's anEXTREMELY uncommon test to run on someone w/ my symptoms.
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
I know that in culture, Bb is significantly growth retarded beginning at TEMPERATURES of around 99 degress F (Prob why it suppresses the body's ability to produce a fever.). At temps above 102 F, Bb starts to die.
At 104 F, all cultured Bb was dead in less than 1 hour. Pretty sure about that.
Therefore, wouldn't so me of the ambient heat affect the growth, lifecycle of Bb? Even tho the body TRIES to maintain 98.6?
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Sometimes the sun will not always help with Vitamin D levels especially if one is tan or has dark skin. The D in milk is not a great form of D.
Solgar D3 helped me and I do lie in the sun often and that was not enough.
James my now famous western blot is now above your posts.
For eveyone poo pooing D3 try some for a week and see what it does or does not do for you then if you want to try the Marshall Protocol and go live in a cave you can try that too.
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posted
Angelicas WB's show a general increase in IgG +'s and a mixed result in IgM.
All I can think of is Bb's mechanism for evading the immune system by hiding under host cells membranes.
If this mechanism is disrupted via Tx, more epitopes will be visible for immune cells to act on. This may give you a mixed bag at the IgM due to the opening up of Bb's surface area. Also, out of all the new Ab's formed this way....some of them will have to form memory cells in the body's attempt to make more "permanent" , long-term immunity.
Over time tho..your IgG's may start to fade and decrease due to the lesser bio-mass of bacteria around to stimulate your immune system further. This effect is probably why some people need booster shots of vaccines to maintain immunity against viruses etc... Also why some people have been known to get chicken pox twice etc..
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Thanks James.
I don't think I was on any antibiotics yet if I recall correctly when I was given my second test.
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Ok. That would make a little more sense to me then.
Getting a Mixed bag on your IgM is probably normal w/o treatment. It's more random chance which epitopes are not hidden and which are at a particular moment in time. Cuz remember that your IgM is a reflection of current illness. Or the Ab's your body is making right at the time of your test.
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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posted
Angelica, how come you didn't start tx after your 1st test?
Cuz of the IgM results? Lots of IND's I see. The IND is tricky to decipher as it is a low level +. Cross-reactivity is more common w/ IND's, than if you get a strong signal like (++++).
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: So you're saying Lyme, Bab's, Bart. are opportunistic, and that Vitamin D prob's ALLOWS them to flourish...while in people w/o Vitamin D prob's...these bacteria are held in check. Due to their NORMALLY functioning immune systems.
Kinda sounds like you're reaching on that.
I agree that more than 1/2 of the nations population has been exposed to Lyme, and therefore would test + for SOME Lyme Ab's. ANd that more than 1/2 people in the nation have Vitamin D prob's as well.
However, I have lived in Arizona, and So. California for the last 15 years. I get tons of sun, drink tons of fortified milk, eat a wide diversity of foods, and take a multivitamin everyday.
None of it helped me from developing the disease. In fact I noticed the onset of symptoms when I moved away from Buffalo, NY. I went to sunny Arizona...then started getting sick.
So is it too much Vitamin D?
You can not overdose on Vitamin D from sunshine. Your body will shut down the production of VitD after about 1/2 hour of full body exposure to UV rich sunshine.
Typically, Vitamin D in fortified milk is Vitamin D2. Not the type D3 the body needs. D2 is inefficiently converted to D3 by the body though. So you do get some from milk. However, in combination with poor absorption of nutrients from pasteurized milk, incl poor absorption of VitD, you might not have gotten all the VitD you thought you were getting from milk.
Typically, VitD in multivitamins is also frequently the inferior D2.
Btw, there has been several recent studies that showed that taking a multivitamin supplement had no associated health benefits with it. It has also been shown that people are better off eating a healthy balanced diet than to take supplements, incl multivitamins.
The problem with imposing a "healthy balanced" diet on a group of people is the old saying that "One mans food is another mans poison."
Balanced healthy eating is simply not understood by most people. And the reason is that healthy eating is highly individual. And that's the same reason why diets, e.g. SouthBeach diet, will work for some but not for others. Because surely there will be some people who need to exact diet as promoted by a particular diet protocol. And they will loose weight. The others will just get frustrated.
Take a look at the content of a typical multivitamin. 200% of this, 800% of that, 13,333% of this. I mean, hallo??? Who needs this kind of overdosing? Even though these levels may not be considered toxic from a medical perspective, what do they do to a bodys chemical balance? I can't imagine it's anything good.
So it's possible you were not as healthy as you thought you were while in Buffalo. Or maybe you were.
Then you moved to Arizona and got plenty of Vit D. But what else changed between Buffalo and Arizona. Did your stress level go up after the move. Did you stop exercising? Are you more dehydrated in Arizona. Still on milk and vitamins? Did you change your eating habits.
All these things will affect the environment for Bb. In your case the move to Arizona made for an improved environment for Bb.
Please do not go off on a tangent and focus on a single supplement like Vitamin D. Vitamin D is crucially important to your body. I would personally be careful to obtain adequate amounts each day. Preferably through sunshine.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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is b/c we already know the body doesn't absorb all of it. You already spoke of poor absorption and poor utilization , poor conversion into useable form, so already answered that question.
For ex, Vitamin C degrades very quickly after made into a vitamin....so by putting 800% of what you really need...by the time you take the vitamin, and absorb/convert into useable form, most of it's gone.
So to get 100% of something out of a vitamin you sometimes need 800% or more packed into the pill.
And since you can't od on many vitamins...they put alot extra in there.
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: the reason for the 800% 1300% etc...
is b/c we already know the body doesn't absorb all of it.
For ex, Vitamin C degrades very quickly after made into a vitamin....so by putting 800% of what you really need...by the time you take the vitamin, and absorb/convert into useable form, most of it's gone.
So to get 100% of something out of a vitamin you sometimes need 800% or more packed into the pill.
I'm sure there must be some variation in the absorption rate from person to person. I'm even quite sure that this range is huge.
Absorption is typically a strong function of fat and water content in the digestive system?
Absorption is also modulated by the presence of other nutrients, enzymes, etc.
Multivitamins are also synthesized, i.e. they are not vitamins in their biologically active form...just to throw another wrench in there.
So isn't it possible that some would get too much and probably some would also get too little?
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: the AMA recommends a multi-vitamin everyday regardless of diet.
And since the AMA is notorious for protecting the drug industry, how much relevance to our health do you think this recommendation has?
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
James the reason I was not given antibiotics after my first test was because the duck who claimed to be a LLMD but honestly was a duck because I saw his feathers called me up and told me I did not have Lyme. That 5 second call cost $75. for his expertise.
He said that I might have babesia because my test was positive for it but he could not tell for sure. Quack quack. He said no need to return to his office and he sold me a bottle of artemisa which he mailed to me.
I had a bulls eye rash earlier in life which I told him about that arrived with panic attacks I never had before along with horrific anxiety I never had before.
When I saw him I had a giant ugly Babsy blue purple rash that he asked about. He did not get that Lyme disease is a clinical diagnosis and he did not listen to my numerous symptoms and did not listen when I called his office to report that my two antibiotic shoots that he gave me for the Igenex urine test made me herx so badly I was in bed for a week.
When I did finally get in to see a real LLMD the real MD commented that the first guy could not read an Igenex test. I was given the second test and was put on Mepron and zith the day of my visit with the real LLMD.
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
Unexpected have you tried green juicing at all like kale and cumbers etc.?
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posted
The AMA's recommendation has relevance to the extent that it is at least SAFE to take a multi-vitamin everyday.
And the reasons it is safe we already mentioned.
Yes, I'm sure some people will absorb different amounts of a vitamin....but the manufacturers of the vitamins put only enough vitamins in the pills, so no one will overdose.
It depends wether the vitamin is fat soluble or not. Vitamins which are NOT fat soluble like: B, and C....you cant OD on them b/c you willl excrete the excess in your urine. Therefore they make the dose WAY more than you would ever need to address the differences from person to person in their individual physiologies. Also, it addresses the degradation that occurs w/ many vitamins over time, (They have expiration dates.) and the body's imperfect abilities to CONVERT some of these vitamins into their USEABLE forms.
So, only FAT SOLUBLE vitamins can be taken to toxic levels....and they make sure that the dose in each vitamin tablet is VERY MUCH BELOW the threshold for toxicity.
Truly, the US RDA for FAT SOLUBLE vitamins is FAR BELOW their TOXIC THRESHOLDS. Therefore you can take a MUCH HIGHER DOSE of a fat soluble vitamin than the USRDA, but still not approach a toxic dose. THus, you can get those 200%-800%, 1300%'s and still be safe...partly b/c you're not absorbing it all and partly b/c exceeding the USRDA a bit isn't toxic or bad in anyway.
[ 21. October 2008, 11:31 AM: Message edited by: James Marschner ]
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: The AMA's recommendation has relevance to the extent that it is at least SAFE to take a multi-vitamin everyday.
And the reasons it is safe we already mentioned.
I've looked for studies that show the benefits of multivitamins. I can't find a single one. Rather the medical literature is has numerous papers reporting slight dangers and no benefits from multivitamins.
I'm interested if you can direct me to a study that shows the benefits.
From a chemical perspective it just doesn't make sense to me that it would be healthy. Just because it's way below toxic levels, it could still be bad for you in some other way, no? Throwing off the body's chemical balance, for example.
quote:Originally posted by James Marschner: Yes, I'm sure some people will absorb different amounts of a vitamin....but the manufacturers of the vitamins put only enough vitamins in the pills, so no one will overdose.
It depends wether the vitamin is fat soluble or not. Vitamins which are NOT fat soluble like: B, and C....you cant OD on them b/c you willl excrete the excess in your urine. Therefore they make the dose WAY more than you would ever need to address the differences from person to person in their individual physiologies. Also, it addresses the degradation that occurs w/ many vitamins over time, (They have expiration dates.) and the body's imperfect abilities to CONVERT some of these vitamins into their USEABLE forms.
So, only FAT SOLUBLE vitamins can be taken to toxic levels....and they make sure that the dose in each vitamin tablet is VERY MUCH BELOW the threshold for toxicity.
Truly, the US RDA for FAT SOLUBLE vitamins is FAR BELOW their TOXIC THRESHOLDS. Therefore you can take a MUCH HIGHER DOSE of a fat soluble vitamin than the USRDA, but still not approach a toxic dose. THus, you can get those 200%-800%, 1300%'s and still be safe...partly b/c you're not absorbing it all and partly b/c exceeding the USRDA a bit isn't toxic or bad in anyway.
Thank you for explaining this.
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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Angelica
Unregistered
posted
The duck gave me the Igenex test because I requested one.
I had already had two unreliable Lyme tests from family docs and my friend who was seeing a real LLMD told me to get an Igenex test.
She had told her LLMD about my symptoms and he thought it sounded like I had Lyme disease. My friend encouraged me to get an Igenex test for years but I was clueless and trusted my family ducks and their tests until I kept getting sicker.
Now when I see one of my family ducks waltzing around town I want to puke. He kept blaming me for my out of control panic attacks and other symptoms for years and I have since found out he gave other people with Lyme disease idiot diagnosis too and told one woman who had a positive Elisa not to bother to treat because the treatment is worse then the disease.
The local paper did an article on LD and nicely asked him if he saw much LD or if he ever might have missed a diagnosis and he said maybe he might have missed one knowing full well that he had.
The reported ran over there and interviewed him after talking to me and others about him. At first I was not going to give her his name but she guessed right away who it was who ignored my borderline Elisa.
posted
I take everything the AMA says with a very cynical grain of salt...People that rise to positions of prominence in such organizations are often self serving egotists. They like to call themselves leaders but they cower behind the party line anytime "outside the box" decisions need to be made. Any guidelines they come up with are likely outdated by the time they print them.
When you create an organization, it eventually expends a great deal of effort to protect itself, and this draws energy away from its original intended mission, and may even come into direct conflict with it.
Vitamin D is important for normal immune function, but it's not the only thing. The proper balance of Omega 3 fatty acids is necessary to help regulate the inflammatory response. The ratio of 0mega 6:omega3 in the diet should be 1:1, but is more likely 20:1 or worse.
The metabolism of every cell is regulated by thyroid hormone, which requires 4 iodine molecules for each T4. The iodine content of most food in the US is lower than it was years ago due to industrial farming methods.
Keep in mind that some of the drug companies that make all these great wonder drugs have agricultural arms that make fertilizers and pesticides. It almost seems that they know in advance what illnesses are going to appear...
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: Vitamin D is important for normal immune function, but it's not the only thing. The proper balance of Omega 3 fatty acids is necessary to help regulate the inflammatory response. The ratio of 0mega 6:omega3 in the diet should be 1:1, but is more likely 20:1 or worse.
The metabolism of every cell is regulated by thyroid hormone, which requires 4 iodine molecules for each T4. The iodine content of most food in the US is lower than it was years ago due to industrial farming methods.
I thought the optimal O6:O3 was even higher than 1:1. In any case, people get way too little O3 in their diet, or rather they get way too much O6 in their [typically grain based] diet.
I personally eat only free range meats that are much higher in O3 and lower in O6 than grain fed meats. I also eat free range eggs, also high in O3. I take Kelp suppl every day and either Cod oil or Chlorella for VitD in non-summer periods.
If you really are an MD, it's great to see an MD that is skeptical towards AMA. Are you of same beliefs wrt FDA, CDC, NIH and drug companies too?
Michael
-------------------- I'm not an MD. The above is IMO and in my experience as well as from health related books.
I've had symptoms consistent with neurological Lyme disease since 1986. Was diagnosed with Lyme in 2004. Am feeling better now than ever before. Posts: 702 | From NY | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Yes I am skeptical of all those agencies. Like anything else, originated from good intent, lost their way. Sort of like the whole immunization program; good in theory, distorted by profit motive. I am not an MD.
[ 23. October 2008, 02:57 PM: Message edited by: DoctorLuddite ]
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by DoctorLuddite: What is more likely is that you are all suffering from vitamin D deficiency. Yours became manifest during your pregnancy because the process depletes you of vitamin D. Your brothers is becoming manifest (it already was, there is a connection between autism and low vit. D) because at 8 his body is growing and without going outdoors, that is causing an already low vit.D to become nearly undetectable. Your mother likely had it and so you and all your sibs were born with low vit.D
Remember this duscussion? It was suggested that us Lymies probably just have a Vitamin D deficiency?! That's what is making us ill...most likely because VITAMIN D DEFICIENCIES are SO WIDESPREAD throughout the U.S.!!!
Now making headlines is the the largest clinical testing lab: Quest: Says that over the last few years, VITAMIN D tests have all been flawed (Inaccurate or invalid.).
Doesn't that mean that all those statistics that Vitamin D, and probably the theory that almost all Lymies are really simply Vitamin D deficient either genetically or via diet, is most likely MORE MEDICAL B.S.!?
Posts: 269 | From Valencia, CA | Registered: Aug 2007
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