posted
The following excerpt from a 2002 article written by a leading Infectious Diseases professor is just the latest in a long string of inadvertent "slips" unearthed by myself and others, revealing that far from a "hard-to-catch, easily-cured disease", Lyme is a dangerous biowarfare pathogen complex.
No doubt the official public health spin doctors will say, for the umpteenth time, that this is another "printing mistake" or another misunderstanding.
I think Lyme patients, however neurologically inflicted, could do without such insults to their intelligence. So please spare us, CDC, NIH, HPA and Detrick spokesmen.
Here is the quote:
"One of the most important aspects of responding to bioterrorism is the ability to rapidly diagnose patients. Diagnostic tests studied at USAMRIID range from rapid malaria testing to tularemia, Lyme Disease, and Marburg virus. 39-43 One pressing issue for a bioterrorist attack is to rapidly diagnose multiple agents simultaneously..." (Boldface mine)
from Proctor, RA, "The USA Preparing for Bioterrorism: the Role of Fort Detrick since 1970", Wisconsin Medical Journal 2002 Vol 101, No.2, p22.
For reprints of this article, contact WMJ Managing Editor at [email protected]
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luvs2ride
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WOW!
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feelfit
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Yeah, they probably have all of the information on what would cure us. Wouldn't they have to have this in place in case the persons who work with these bioweapons were involved in an accident?
Truly amazing find eight legs bad.
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adamm
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Yep. The holocaust (literally) in your back yard...
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lymielauren28
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Hey 8legs - thanks for posting this. It's amazing all the lame excuses they have for mistakenly printing that Lyme is used as a biowarfare agent.
By the way I tried to pick up where you left off on Wiki a while back. I got the boot too
Lauren
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Geneal
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I knew it was a bio-weapon.
We have a Primate Research Center about 20 miles from me.
There is where the C-6 Peptide test was developed.
There AIDs and Lyme are heavily studied.
Didn't you hear that Hitler was to drop ticks out of an airplane?
Wonder what those little vectors were carrying...
Hugs,
Geneal
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sparkle7
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I thought all of this was from a press release that was later recalled & they said it was a misprint?
Sometimes the author just copies the info from the press release. I don't remember who wrote the original press release or study that all of this comes from.
It's good to keep posting about it so those newly infected will get an idea of what they are dealing with.
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Leelee
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Truly frightening. But believable I'm afraid.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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bettyg
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8legs, have you bought PJ LANGHOFF'S new book, THE BAKER'S DOZEN...lunatic fringe?
it's all about the IDSA and she refutes things galore in this PACKED, smallest print 525 pages with over 1000 links given.
she recently sent 10 copies of her book and 8-10 page letter including 5 pages of links galore to ALL ON THE NEW PANEL to go over 06 IDSA guidelines!
2 days later, it was extended to april 16 or someting like that!
she will be having it available online book somewhere in future.
read her letter i posted in IDSA panel.... use her email address there to write her ok. her book would help you out tremendously in what you do...
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posted
I have what some might say "access" to this kind of information. I can say though, that almost EVERY pathogen has been studied as a biological weapon by either the US or USSR at any given time. This does not necessarily mean it was engineered as such, or that it would even be viable weaponized. Most of this research is actually done for defense.
Lyme, or anything tick borne would be a horrible biological weapon for military use. Inefficient (Who will the tick bite, and when?), long duration before incapacitation. (Soldiers will keep shooting through the short term infection symptoms etc.), and indiscriminate (Will bite your guys too, civilians).
Its a lot easier to toss some anthrax, botulism, plague etc... if you really wanted to use a biological weapon. Of course, some will say it is being used as a "Control" on this country's own populace or that it targets "hippies" who spend time outside etc... I don't feel that's true. After all, 90% of US Army/Marine training takes place outside. You would not want your soldiers exposed to something that takes them out of commission in the long term.
Also, it is my personal belief based on the data I've seen, that a "miracle cure" is not waiting in some Ft. Detrick or Pentagon bunker. If it was, the government could release it and be deemed heroic by the entire medical, and lyme community. Even if Lyme escaped from Plum Island or some such, the most logical thing to do would be to find a cure as fast as possible, and make it a victory for the government and science together.
There is absolutely nothing gained by allowing vector-borne conditions to run wild in the public.
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posted
If it's for population control, then what is to be gained by the powers that be is a softening up of the public before something like a worldwide flu gets released. My worst fantasy.
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quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: I thought all of this was from a press release that was later recalled & they said it was a misprint?
Hi Sparkle -
There was a press release with a CDC leak in it which was later recalled; there have also been several other, **different** sources uncovered each saying the same thing, including something I found tucked away on the NIH's own website a few years back. At that time they deleted the words "lyme disease" and claimed it was a mistake.
This quote is not connected with any of the other sources, but was written by a Wisconsin professor. It certainly is not a printing mistake - articles published in med journals undergo peer review, so they are read and checked by many experienced doctors before ever being published.
The reference given by the author relates to a study on Lyme in dogs done at Fort Detrick.
Lauren - thanks for trying at wikipedia. There is an organised mob of Steerites there deleting any good info on lyme. It would take a very concerted effort to get the truth up there - the wikipedia staff are being contacted by apparently prestigious medical people, and so they just assume those guys are telling the truth
Betty - I know of PJ Langhoff and actually planned to order her book from my local library so it will be accessible to many - thanks.
I noticed she mentioned that she believes Lyme is a biowarfare issue too.
Elena
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Leelee
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quote:Originally posted by bettyg: have you bought PJ LANGHOFF'S new book, THE BAKER'S DOZEN...lunatic fringe?
Just bought it from Amazon.com and started reading last night. I can't put it down.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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dontlikeliver
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ELB
With all due respect when you take a quote out of its context it may look much different than it does within it. Also, like Blackstone said, though I'm not ruling OUT that Borrelia has been altered in some way and maybe ACCIDENTALLY got out, but as said above what would be gained by this?
It would be a population disabler (not control as in 'kill them off') because it's usually not a killer but a drainer on society as a whole, etc.
Ruling nothing out, but would need a bit more convincing and seeing quotes within their entire context before jumping to conclusions that potentially backfire and then really do make us look like a bunch of fringe lunatics if things are read into and interpreted in a way that is actually not really there.
Is it possible, like Blackstone said, that yes it's been studied and that is not a secret as it's readily admitted. But, where is the admissions that they (the evil powers that be) have a plan and what the plan is.
Posts: 2824 | From The Back of Beyond | Registered: Oct 2003
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posted
Our government may not be aware, I like to blame everything on ISDA.
Arent they the ones who get all the funding? Arent they the one trying to profit from this illness?
They are pathologically obcessed with Lyme belonging to them.So they can profit from it.
They love control, and exploitation. Scarey how sick it is, and their manipulation
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'Kete-tracker
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Not sure how you got that from reading this paragraph. (?) The studying of a disease-causing bacteria or virus (incl it's Dx) because of it's possible use as an infectious agent in a bio-terrorist attack, does not in Any Way suggest or imply the origins of that particular microbe.
Anthrax was used repeatedly in U.S. Postal-based attacks on individuals & resulted in the deaths of several people. This was a classic case of bio-terrorism. But we know that anthrax has been around for centuries & was never man-made.
Lyme might very well be a good choice as a bio-terrorist pathogen, esp. certain virulent species causing debilitating neurological issues. I would even say it is Possible that it was briefly studied & toyed with at "that lab" on Plum Island.
But to blame Lyme's existance on the 'darker forces' that work within our human civilization is implausible at best. Especially in light of the positive DNA identification of this borrelia in older & older preserved samples of organic material from around the world, including Mayan artifacts in Central America (~500 A.D.) & animal hide samples in northern-central Asia/Russia (19th century)!
The race is now on- among those studying the borrelia's DNA sequence- to track it back to a particular area of the globe. BTW, I'm not a spokesman, just a "recovered" Lymie who enjoys reading any & all research literature on the topic.
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bettyg
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elena,
see my other post .... pj langhoff's open letter to public on idsa.
she talks about her NEXT book on MILITARY/lyme! now, that ought to be really enlightening!
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Leelee
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I sometimes worry that since so many people have a difficult time believing in Lyme in the first place, that they will also scoff at the idea that it is a bio-weapon or part of a military cover-up.
It may just be too far-fetched of an idea for many to grasp. In turn, I could see where that would compromise the integrity of the Lyme community making it all too easy to label us as "kooks".
Just my thoughts. Don't really know where I stand on the issue as I haven't done enough thinking about it. However, I will be first in line for PJ Langhoff's new book. I respect her point of view and she does do her research.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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sparkle7
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re: But to blame Lyme's existance on the 'darker forces' that work within our human civilization is implausible at best. Especially in light of the positive DNA identification of this borrelia in older & older preserved samples of organic material from around the world, including Mayan artifacts in Central America (~500 A.D.) & animal hide samples in northern-central Asia/Russia (19th century)!
----
There are hundreds of strains of borrelia. It's not a question that it has been around for a long time. The borrelia burgdorferi strain was named after the doctor who discovered it in 1982.
The question is why did it happen in the 1970's in Lyme CT...
Why was Lyme (as we know it now) unknown until then?
So much of the info about Lyme is based in a concept called "disinformation"... It seem pretty obvious if you study those sorts of things.
If you connect the dots - it doesn't seem all that complex of an assumption that Lyme is a form of bio-warfare.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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You are overlooking a significant fact which does not get enough attention: there are HUNDREDS of different strains of Borrelia. Some are less troublesome and may not cause any symptoms. Others may cause very specific joint and spine problems. In a perfect world, your DNA technology would be able to identify, backtrack and categorize all the strains of Bb going back to the Mayans and even before -- but also categorize the anomalies which presented artificially by man-made manipulation or natural mutation. But don't hold your breath on this feat. It ain't gonna happen!
Even doctors fall into similar traps by not differentiating among pathogens and their virulence. This is a huge problem for all involved! E.g., some bugs and their unique strains are worse than others - a hierarchy of pathogenetic evolution if you will. Nick Harris figured this out years ago. That's why Igenix gets so much attention. They're smart. And that's why the IDSA hates them.
Here's one of many links that may underscore this first point:
Genetic Diversity among Borrelia Strains Determined by Single-Strand Conformation Polymorphism Analysis of the ospC Gene and Its Association with Invasiveness
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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'Kete-tracker
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sparkle- It "happened" back on Long Island in the late '60s (Read up) It "happened" in Central Europe in the 1890s, the 1920s... the 1950s. It "happened" in CA in the 1980s.
The ONLY thing that stands out about the lady calling up the authorities in Old Lyme CT in 1975 was thet she got certain academic ID specialists to agree with her that this was not just a coincidence of several juvenile arthritis cases in the 2 towns, but a more serious issue of a likely pathogen (Virus? Bacteria? They hadn't a clue) that was carried by Ixodes ticks in the area.
It wasn't til 6 or 7 years later that Willy B. said, "WAIT a minute!" as he peered into his dark-field microscope & pronounced discovery of a 'new' germ.
It didn't "start" in CT, Sparkle. It just got publicity. (Thank God)
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sparkle7
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Can you post some reference to what exactly "it happened" is? I have no idea what you are referencing.
Alot of things happened on Long Island in the 1960's, etc...
I can post alot of references of biological warfare from those dates, too.
It's been going on for a long time now...
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'Kete-tracker
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Cold feet, I'm fully aware of the hundreds of strains worldwide. And I know it's a struggle to try to find the "original one" further up the tree. It my be too complex a distribution pattern now for the feat that these genetics scientists are attempting. But I have faith.
I'm just continually appalled at the quickness that many 'Americans' (especially) seem to jump to a conspiratorial theory to explain what they Think they "see".
As I said, it's Possible that the critters were studied & messed with on Plum Island, but I don't think those folk honestly gave this tick-borne illness, one that requires a 'vector innoculation' to spread, much of a chance to become a useful military tool for the reasons cited by a previous poster.
My gut says the "conditions" around these last few decades have made the environment (weather), ticks & hosts more favorable to the B.B's spread. And when U have more OF it around, you get more variations happening, including those strains that are more virulent.
The UOS film's animated world map depicted CT as Ground Zero. I submit that it will be another CONTINENT that will ultimately be shown to be responsible. But time will tell. Thanx for the responses. They keep us on our toes!
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'Kete-tracker
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Well, to start off, there's the family w/ 2 daughters on Long Island who both ended up coming down with late Lyme symptoms in their middle years. The oldst had an acute bout with a mystery illness as a child, complete with an expanding bullseye rash, causing severe arthritis & putting her in a wheelchair for a few weeks. Doctors where mystified. Happened in the late 1960s, according to both daughters. The youngest is now a TV anchorwoman in a state a few states south of New York. She put together an investigative report on the famly's plight which was on TV last year. I'll try to find you the link. More info to follow.
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sparkle7
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Well, as far as I can see - Long Island is very close to Plum Island... It wouldn't surprise me if the ticks &/or Bb got there first.
Just read Michael Carroll's book "Lab 57". There's plenty of solid reference. He's a lawyer - it's not crack pot stuff.
Also, I started reading a very good book posted by 8 Legs Bad awhile back about the Japanese involvement in bio-warfare prior to WW2. I forget the full title (the book is upstairs & I'd have to go & get it).
So between Operation Paperclip & the Japanese research - it's not a stretch. A German Nazi scientist was running Plum Island after WW2... Read about Operation Paperclip. It's not fiction.
There is plenty of credible reference for Lyme to be a bio-warfare agent...
BTW - they are closing Plum Island facility since it's so prone to leaks. It's not a new idea that the place is not safe for doing the kind of research that goes on there.
There have been plenty of articles in the local press about it. The place has been run down for a long time.
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'Kete-tracker
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Her we go, Sparkle. 1967. The summer the Fab 4 put out Sgt Pepper. Long Island, New York. Take a watch. <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LfiQ1LhwgGU>
I'll try to dig up some early European medical literature tomorrow. -'Kete Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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'Kete-tracker
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Yup... I've heard that place is a mess. Good RIDDANCE!
As I'd posted on another thread before: the large rat & mouse populations in NY in the early 20th century and the importation of Central European furs (& animals) into New York harbor- that were recorded in olde trade documents during that same time period, are what was making some investigators think this is how it got "started" here in the U.S... especially once they found the "smoking gun" of B.B. DNA found in some of the preserved hides from NY museums.
But, honestly, I think the "plague" of BB started with many 'brush fires'- pockets of BB & it's variants. And it's probably still "arriving". Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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I wrote a long reply to many of the points raised here and then it all evaporated before I got a chance to hit the send button. Never mind...I'll write it again when I get a moment.
In the meantime, Kete-tracker - a question for you. Sure, there's plenty of old European literature on what we now know is Lyme. However -
...How much of it relates to ***Neurological lyme*** prior to the Second World War era?
Precious little, in my experience - but plenty afterwards. Why?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Hi Kete-tracker, I can't get the youtube link to work. I'm getting this message."The URL contained a malformed video ID."
Is anyone else having trouble?
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'Kete-tracker
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imagine- When you carefully "drag-highlight" & 'Copy' the link, make sure you have everything withIN the brackets dark, but neither < or > included. Then 'Paste' it into a new (I.E., Firefox, etc.) browser's address field & click 'Go'.
Or, just CAREfully type in the whole URL. You don't have to bother w/ the hypertext prefix... just start with the www. Good luck!
Elena- U make a good point. But we DID have a population boom as well as the first real uptick in winter temps post WWII. For example, downtown Concord NH was REGULARILY down to 30 below in early Jan. for a few dawns up thru the 1930s. By the late '50s, it Rarely dipped below -20F. NOW it Rarely gets to -10F! Ticks are known to survive warmer winters better. (Field mice, too.) I think It's all about our changing environment along with the never-waning efforts of organisms to survive.
I hear reports of Lyme in Yarmouth NS, now. There ya go!
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disturbedme
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Very good thread going here. Very interesting.
-------------------- One can never consent to creep when one feels an impulse to soar. ~ Helen Keller
My Lyme Story Posts: 2965 | From Land of Confusion (bitten in KS, moved to PA, now living in MD) | Registered: Jun 2007
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sparkle7
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re: "especially once they found the "smoking gun" of B.B. DNA found in some of the preserved hides from NY museums"
Are you sue it was Borrelia burgdorferi? There are many strains & variants of diseases caused by spirochetes.
In the mid-1970s, a geographic clustering of an unusual rheumatoid arthritis-like condition was reported in Connecticut.
This syndrome, Lyme disease, proved to be a newly recognized disorder characterized by some or all of the following mainfestations: an initial erythematous annular rash, flu-like symptoms, neurologic complications, and arthritis in about 50% of untreated patients.
In the United States, the disease occurs primarily in three geographic regions including the Northeast, Midwest, and far western parts of California and Oregon.
These areas include the ranges of various species of Ixodes ticks, the primary vector of Lyme disease.
Lyme disease is now the most common tick-transmitted illness in the United States and has also been reported in other parts of the Northern hemisphere, particularly in western Europe.
In the early-1980s, a novel spirochete, called Borrelia burgdorferi, was isolated and cultured from the mid-gut of Ixodes ticks, and subsequently from patients with Lyme disease.
B. burgdorferi resembles other spirochetes in that it is a highly specialized, motile, two-membrane, spiral-shaped bacteria which lives primarily as an extracellular pathogen.
One of the most striking features of B. burgdorferi as compared with other eubacteria is its unusual genome, which includes a linear chromosome approximately one megabase in size and numerous linear and circular plasmids.
Long-term culture of B. burgdorferi results in a loss of some plasmids and changes in expressed protein profiles.
Associated with the loss of plasmids is a loss in the ability of the organism to infect laboratory animals, suggesting that the plasmids encode key genes involved in virulence.
B. burgdorferi may persist in humans and animals for months or years following initial infection, despite a robust humoral immune response.
B. burgdorferi is susceptible to antibiotics in vitro, however, there are contradictory reports as to the efficacy of antibiotics in vivo. Consequently, considerable attention has focused on the development of a vaccine for Lyme disease.
Current evidence suggests humoral immunity plays an important role in prevention of infection and resolution of disease; however, one of the difficulties in developing a meaningful strategy for immunization is that it is not understood what aspects of humoral and cell-mediated immunity are required to counter established infection.
Because of its importance as a human and animal pathogen and the value of complete genome sequence information for understanding its life cycle and advancing drug and vaccine development, TIGR sequenced the genome of the type strain (B31) for B. burgdorferi using the random sequencing method previously described (Fleischmann et al., 1995; Fraser et al., 1995; Bult et al., 1996; Tomb et al., 1997).
The isolate of B. burgdorferi 31 used for this project contains a total of 12 linear and 9 circular plasmids.
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sparkle7
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PS - This is from Craig Ventner's website - Why do you suppose out of all of the bacteria in the world... that this bacteria was one of the first whose genome was studied?
Seems kind of odd...
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jt345
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Hi Folks
Kete- had posted about a large pop. of rats and mice in the 1920's. The year that lyme broke my back was a year I was in the process of declaring an old building across the street as condemed,and ordered it to be burnt or torn down.
That place was full of rats, durning the day they would play around an old car that sat out side of the building.
With in one month of going in there I became very sick. Too make a long story short ,it was April,and by May I was not able to do anything.
When my tests came back from Igenexs they showed positive for lyme,one old infection for babs(no longer active),and a active infection to babs.
When the building was removed,the rats moved into homes in our area. I was so afraid of them .
At night I would shoot them in my shop,with a 22.
They had dug under the foundation of our house ,so I filled all of the rat holes with concret. They came into our basement as a way out. I used traps and poison to kill them all. I shot one with a pellet gun pistol downstairs,and watched fleas jump off it.
We do have a problem,that I don't think will ever be fixed. I look back on that now and know I was reinfected because of those rats. We lost the house 2 years after that.I wonder how the new owners are getting along.
I am not sure about all the talk of conspirice(spelling) Do You think it might be better in the form of PM messages?
There are ones who watch this board,and it would not take much for them ,too start calling us alarmests.
We are thought of as nuts anyway,why give them more ammo?
I don't think there are one of us Who could ever prove it in a court of law.Just a thought (thanks for all You do)
sparkle7
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There are books written by reputable people who do valid research. It's not stuff people make up to cause controversy.
"Lab 257" is about Plum Island & illness that may be associated with it. It was written by a lawyer. It's not fiction. He proves his point by valid research.
Rats & other small mammals can carry ticks. The question is where did the ticks get exposed to Bb? Rats also carry fleas with the plague & other ailments but very few people are getting the Black Death these days.
There are many gov't agencies in many countries that work with pathogens & bio-warfare. In goes on in secret but we pay for it in this country with our tax dollars. If something goes wrong - they probably will not notify the public. Especially, if it a top secret project.
It's not sci-fi or crackpot conspiracy stuff. It happens all of the time.
Within the last few weeks, bird flu was almost released into the public in Eastern Europe & a scientist stuck herself with a needle full of Ebola... I can sight the news reports about these 2 things that happened very recently.
There is a long history of the gov't experimenting on people in the military & the public with & without their knowledge or consent.
Accidents do happen. The court is fickle & just because something goes to court doesn't mean it proved innocence or guilt.
The reason that this is important is because we do not know how to fight Lyme or the co-infections. Every step of the way is fraught with controversy from diagnosis to treatment to disability insurance.
I don't know any other disease that is treated in this manner except maybe Fibromyalgia & CFS which may be related.
We need to know the truth so we can find a way to get better.
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jt345
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Hi
I am very sorry if I offended You,that was not My intention. appleseed
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You know, I just remembered that my ex, who was a military officer, used to be repeatedly briefed by his commanders to check for ticks. I always though, "well, that's kinda crazy" but maybe there was something to it...
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sparkle7
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jt345 - I'm not sure who you are referring to. I was not offended in the least. I just want people to know about this aspect of Lyme...
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glm1111
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Can anyone explain why most of us have the exact same co-infection such as bart, babs erlichia etc?
The same co-infect can be found on the east coast, west coast, northeast and southeast. It certainly doesn't sound random to me.
Anyone have an explanation? Sure sounds like they came from the same source to me,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
glm1111, this is off-topic, but I love the quote in your signature.
It is spot-on.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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Sorry, I could not disagree more. How is it that this little bug (actually many different vectors, documented extensively) could carry so many different kinds of pathogens that are harmful to humans? Read any of the books mentioned in this topic, and you may not have that question -- but others instead.
Sure, many animals carry many different kinds of bugs. But how many carry a NUMBER of DIFFERENT bugs (and/or other pathogens) that are so harmful to human beings! I touched on this earlier...or at least I tried.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I would like to add something by saying to those who think we should not contemplate discussions of the military aspects of Bb, that I don't believe that in doing so we bring accusations of alarmism and craziness on the movement. Not at all.
Most people, ordinary blue collar down to earth folk, don't blink an eyelid when the suggestion is put to them that Bb is a bug that was designed accidentally or intentionally, or was something that escaped. They already have an intuitive knowledge that we are continually being lied to by our governments.
Anyone with a normal IQ these days seems to be cynical and yet at the same time accepting of the state we are in - a world where spin is widespread, pouring from politicians and leaders' mouths, that they are quite used to the status quo - which is that we are being told nothing approaching the truth.
After all, a million people marched in London to show that they didn't want the UK to go into Iraq, but it had no effect at all on the military/government decision to invade.
Most people know that our so-called democracy only works on a superficial level, a sort of pretend democracy.
The most important decisions are never made by the voters.
Also, for our own good, we will never be told what the real dangers are. We are all like little kids, when it comes to being told of what's going on and we must be protected from the truth in case we panic.
Well, a country gets the government it deserves, and until we show some bravery and curiosity and a lot more interest in politics and truth, then we will continue to be led by the nose.
If the IDSA eventually come up with some weak and woolly minor changes to their useless guidelines, then we will know that the decision was already made, and the review process has been a pantomime.
A disease as bad as AIDS, being pushed under the carpet? what an earth can be going on? There should be ID medics going on TV to warn the citizens, not trying to make out there's no problem.
For too long now, there's been something beyond what we know of, controlling the media on this issue. The very fact that so many lies and so much cover-up and intrigue have happened points to a massive bad secret, don't you think?
posted
I forgot to add: I believe we should be more alarmist, not less.
What's wrong with being alarmed at the dreadful mess this disease is making?
Until the average person on the street becomes as worried as I am about the spread of vector-borne diseases, until then, we are going to remain crying in the wilderness.
Not until there is general widespread discussion about the tenacity of these cell-wall deficient organisms which are causing so much widespread affliction, will there be any hope of treatment.
The governments, or whoever controls us, has been happy for the last 50 years to keep this under wraps, with only the very wealthy and some of the intelligentsia being able to have their infections treated. Most of us on here have no idea when we will be able to get better, or where the next round of treatment will come from. And it makes me alarmed, not just for myself and my family, but for the next generation.
posted
IMO, talk of conspiracy does not help our cause right now. We first need to convince people, and docs and politicians, that chronic Lyme is REAL, devastating, and reaching pandemic proportions.
Let's not forget the importance of DEER in the Lyme equation. Without deer, there would be no adult ticks. Without adult ticks, there is no reproduction and the ticks would die out.
There are more deer now in Connecticut than there were when the pilgrims landed. Why? No predators, greatly expanded habitat (forest clearings aka suburbia), and endless supply of food (gardens).
I would guess that the rodent population has also increased exponentially, since rodents follow people. So given that the host animals have increased exponentially, and the host animals are literally in our back yards, you can see how the ticks carrying Bb have also exploded. Pam Weintraub in her book Cure Unknown clearly sees this as the cause. I saw one of her posts where she pretty much dismissd the idea of a bioweapon conspiracy.
Another thing that I have not seen talked about is the fact that one of these host species, the field mouse, not only lives in our backyards, but in our homes. Anyone who has ever had mice in their homes, has also had ticks in their homes.
As you read this now, there could be critters 3 feet behind you behind the wall, under the sofa, dropping little nymphs ready to hitch a ride on someone's foot. Just a thought.
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
i don't really care what others think, this is critical information in regard to recovery. sufferers need to know what they are dealing with.
mycoplasma fermentans is a known biological weapon. it is often found in chronic "lyme" cases, and often there undetected.
perhaps the weaponized organisms are both identified and unidentified ingredients of the infectious soup that those of us most ill are dealing with.
mo
-------------------- life shrinks and expands in proportion to one's courage -- anais nin Posts: 8337 | From the other shore | Registered: Jul 2002
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sparkle7
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posted
Deer & small animals aren't the problem... It's humans.
If you don't consider what we are dealing with - how can you ever get well? All of this is changing people's epigenetics & I'm sure it will be passed down to future generations. It's already happening!
They won't be telling you this on Oprah or CNN... Pam Weintraub has done a great job getting the word out but I don't agree with some of the things she believes about Lyme.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
Other mammals are going extinct. What's to say this isn't the beginning of our slow demise?
I am not a pessimist at all, but with global warming as a factor in not killing ticks over winter, deer overtaking us, insurance not paying for our illness, only a few doctors willing to treat us, mothers passing the disease to their unborn children, maybe this is the beginning of the end.
I don't mean to upset or offend anyone, but I do think about this sometimes.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
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I think there have been some very well-written contributions from some people here which adequately say some of what I wanted to say, so I'll try just to deal with issues not covered.
Blackstone, you hinted you have or have had "access" to info about biowarfare beyond the average citizen. If that is so, I am surprised that you could imply that ticks would not be considered as a vector for biowarfare.
Millions of ticks have been raised in the world's biowar labs over the decades - including Plum Island. This is a simple fact, not particularly concealed by entities like the DoD.
While it's true that a pathogen being studied for its military value does not necessarily mean it has one, nevertheless there is enough evidence that borrelia is considered of value - if it was not, why has it been studied for ***decades***? Why was it not abandoned in the thirties?
The book Sparkle referred to ("Japan's Secret Weapon" by Barclay Newman ) reveals the Japanese had an almost obsessional interest in spirochaetes as weapons of war, with a whole chapter devoted to this topic.
In particular they were interested in cultivating what appears to have been L-forms for aerial dissemination - no ticks needed there.
Sixty to seventy years later, we find constant reminders that modern war labs are studying Lyme. If Lyme borreliae were found to be unsuited as weapons, why has the interest been sustained over decades?
As for the argument that this is all for "defense", I'm sorry. Some of the world's top scientists have admitted that all this work is "dual purpose". It can be used for offensive purposes as well as defense.
The very fact that the work is being done, makes it easy for the leaders of nations hostile to ours to tell their populations that we are preparing to strike them with biological WMD, and that therefore they must develop their own "defense".
I disagree that there is an unavoidable blowback effect on home troops - the aim would be to use either vaccines, protective clothing and chemicals, or early treatment with specific drugs to ensure that those dispersing tick-borne or aerosolised agents dont become infected. If the blowback argument were real, no vectors would ever be studied as bioweapons.
As for the delay before incapacitation, that could well be one of the reasons borreliae ***are**** attractive to bioweaponeers - it's often a strategy to lure masses of soldiers into a place so that they suffer disaster later.
If an agent incapacitated immediately, only the first into an area would be hit - any further troop movements would be stopped till a way to avoid or deal with the danger was found. In the meantime the obviousness of the attack would give the other side the "moral" justification for using WMD of their own.
As for the US government issuing a cure if they had it - well, no, not necessarily. If military minds judge that it is more important, for whatever strategic reasons, to keep info about Lyme under wraps than to have sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of "collateral damage", then that info will remain under wraps.
DLL, you said they have "readily admitted" studying Lyme as a bioweapon - well, no, they haven't at all. Officially they deny it. How could they say in one breath that it's easily cured in 3 weeks and in another that it needs to be studied under BSL4 (top security) conditions?
What has been happening, is that I and a few others have spent a lot of time ferreting out and bringing out in the open various documents that prove that this work was, and still is, going on. Their response has been to claim certain things have been "printing mistakes", to fudge the issue, or to deny them altogether.
For example, the UK govt rep told parliament some years ago that no research had been done on Lyme for years; however, I found a document clearly showing that research HAD been done - in Porton Down, our top biowarfare lab.
As far as the mouse pelt theory is concerned, this goes against a lot of current ecological research which shows that ticks rapidly desert the cold body of a dead animal and search for something live.
If Lyme was in the US for a century, why was the first EM rash only documented in 1970?
There were cases of ACA, a late Lyme manifestation, in immigrants to USA from eastern Europe. But no American records of EM.
Kete, you said anthrax has been around for centuries and was never "man-made". That's an extraordinary remark to make. It's well known that what was released in 2001 was weaponised agent.
DLL, there is nothing "out of context" about my quote from the Wisconsin article. Th entire article is about bioweapons, the quote mentioning Lyme is immediately preceded and immediately followed by a sentence discussing bioweapons. There is nothing unclear or ambiguous about what the author wrote.
If you have any doubts, I will happily send you the entire article.
I am pretty tired, to be honest, or hearing this constant mantra that we must not discuss the biowarfare aspect of Lyme in case people think we're crazy.
If we have facts, bona fide evidence, we have every right to discuss it. There is enough circumstantial evidence already for the Lyme community, if it got its act together, to demand a public inquiry in every country in which this coverup is being upheld.
DLL, what would you have said to the families of the soldiers who died or became disabled for life as a result of the phony common cold experiments that our Ministry of Defence conducted here for decades? Should they have not fought for justice (and eventually, as they did, won recognition in court) in case people thought they were crazy? Should they have just let it go?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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jt345
Unregistered
posted
Hi Elena
You are right. But when I played poker I never showed my hand too the people I was playing with.
Soemtimes it is too the players advantage too play dumb.
I don't think We will ever know the whole story. What I do think is we have too deal with what We have right now. Something that We can do is support our ill.
One of the oldest tactics in covert actions is to divide and conquer. I sure hope this will not be our fate. You people amaze Me at Your resorcsefulness,to get information. I take my hat off too You.
I hope You all have a peaceful and happy Easter weekend.
posted
ELB - There is a huge amount of scary government research into many things. Back in the 50s, one of our "big things" to combat the Soviet spy initiatives was psychic research. Go all over the net - there are archives of papers about the "stargate project" for precognition, telepathy and all that sort of thing. The government brought in hundreds of fortune tellers, police "psychics", monks, and others who were supposed to have all sorts of powers. There are tons of documents about their experiments, but unless you believe the "X-Files" ending where it is all a vast conspiracy, most of these archives ended with the idea that "Psychic intelligence gathering has proved unreliable and inconclusive at best"
I make this comparison because as I said before, just because there is research being done, doesn't necessarily indicate malice, or even effectiveness!
You ask about why spirochete disease continue to be studied - well, probably for the same reason WE are doing so - compared to other bacteria, they are incredibly complex. The fact they are still being studied is a good sign. It means someone appreciates their complexity and danger. It doesn't necessarily mean they have an offensive use.
While all this research is dual purpose of course, defense is often the first priority. We can't have presidents, generals, statesmen and soldiers with persistent infections of any kind. Research on lyme and other vector borne condition is more suited to defense. For reasons I listed above, lyme would be be an unreliably dangerous offensive weapon - It is indiscriminate, hard to direct, long progression, and hard to diagnose for your own troops.
It just isn't a very good bioweapon. Now, maybe some military scientists are studying lyme to say... I don't know, give Anthrax the ability to shift into a cystic form to make it harder to cure or some such. Things like that could explain offensive research in addition to defensive ones, but lyme itself is a terrible bioweapon.
In response to blowback - where are these miracle vaccines and repellents? There is no evidence of their existence, or else we'd be using them! There's no reason to believe that they're locked in some pentagon bunker somewhere. The military still relies on their old standard of DEET for repelling just about all insect vectors. Blowback is probably one of the primary reasons that vector borne biowarfare, in conjunction with those I listed above, has never been implemented successfully in the modern era.
While you're theory of latent infection would be viable for another disease, it doesn't make a lot of sense for lyme. How many of you, if you had to, could defend your home from an intruder today? How many of us have still made the trek to the grocery store, even after years of infection? How many people had "lyme rage" incidents? If our country was being assaulted, we would still be dangerous today! Latent symptom presentation works great for something like ebola - by the time the enemy arrives and figures it out, they're all dead. This is in a number of days, not years. Especially considering lyme hinges on being bitten by a tick, a relatively random occurrence, its not a tactical decision to lure a few of your guys into the "range" and have them carry the pathogen back - it isn't even communicable! Again, lyme fails where something like ebola or anthrax would succeed. Until I see an airborne, 95% exposure > infection rate, crippling within a few days version of lyme, I don't see any evidence of a weaponized pathogen.
Especially when dealing with the government, never ascribe to malice what could be explained by stupidity or embarrassment. Even supposing a bunch of research ticks escaped from plum island, it is much more likely it was an "oops" rather than a "Mwa ha ha, we shall release these into our general populace!". If there is in fact a coverup, it is most likely because there's egg on someone's face.
Plum Island, Fort Dietrich, Groom Lake etc... there's just as a good a chance that researchers in all these places are working to find a better treatment or cure. With a disease that a senator's son could be infected with while playing in his backyard, its hard to believe that there isn't a lot of positive research being done as well. I personally know of several projects I can't expound upon, but suffice it to say that every single government researcher isn't simply there to bring evil to the world. If the NIH, CDC, or DOD could produce a series of treatments that would eliminate vector borne pathogens, wouldn't you consider this heroic?
In conclusion, I don't think that we have to shy away from this sort of discussion, but it really feels like many people are extrapolating lots of fantastical scenarios from extremely limited evidence, and this doesn't help our cause. Admittedly, it is a lot easier to blame someone for this, because that suggest they could do something to rectify the situation - unfortunately I don't feel this is the case.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
There are currently over 300 strains of Lyme known world wide.
Some researchers have suggested that the Tchefuncte Indians
Showed possible/probable signs of one of these strains.
The Indian Buriel grounds are dated 300BC to 500AD.
I live on the Tchefuncte River.
Some strains are virulent and some aren't.
May explain why some of us have such invasive symptoms
While others do not. May not be the immune system at all.
May be related to the specific sub-species we were exposed to.
I think the bigger problem is the lack of awareness and education.
I mean someone had to classify and categorize all of these strains of Lyme.
I had heard of Lyme but only knew it to be a Tick Borne Vector
That only happened in the Northeast of US.
Now I know better.
There still is a concious effort to stifle any information/education
Regarding Lyme disease and symptoms.
That seems to be a huge "hidden agenda".
I think that by isolating bb and using blood sucking insects
As a vector is entirely possible.
Thus, in my opinion, should be considered a bio-weapon.
Hugs,
Geneal
Posts: 6250 | From Louisiana | Registered: Oct 2006
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
What about the government experiments in the 1960s with deliberately using LSD on U. S. citizens for experimental purposes?
Known as PROJECT MKULTRA or Operation Paperclip. The subjects included CIA employees and military personnel.
Over thirty Universities & Institutions were involved in extensive testing and experimentation on unwitting citizens on "all social levels"
Which would say to me that the medical community would have to of been very cooperative to say the least.
Very nieve to think that the government wouldn't be involved in biowarfare. Fantastical scenario? I don't think so.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I never said the government wasn't involved in biological warfare research. I said the results of that research would unlikely be a viable lyme bioweapon. The government has done some horrible things in the past that benefited them. MKUltra's use of LSD (and other drugs) was an easy to monitor, instant presentation, well understood and easily dispersed agent. The complete opposite of lyme. Even so, the experiments were later discredited as lacking any sort of viable scientific evidence, as the observers didn't properly administer the scientific method.
I'm not sure what Operation Paperclip has to do with this. All it did was bring former German scientists to the US, including Werner Von Braun.
I'm not arguing that the government would shy away from unethical things - I'm saying that in a cold, hard tactical and pragmatic sense, lyme makes a poor biological weapon, and the government messes up more than it succeeds.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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glm1111
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Member # 16556
posted
If it was not deliberate than why are most of us suffering from the same co-infections?
I find it highly unlikely that people in the Northeast, Southeast, West and in every state inbetween are infected with the same pathogens if these ticks were not injected.
The point about the MKUtra experiment is that the government has no qualms about experimenting on us. If Lyme is not a bioweapon maybe this is just another one of their sick experiments.
The Nazi scientists they brought here after WW11 and placed in these labs are the same ones that were doing horrific experiments in Germany.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I think that's a little like asking "How can people all over the world get malaria?" Malaria resides in tropical mosquitoes in locations all over the world. This isn't because of any notorious man-made dispersion, but because the protozoa simply is carried by that particular insect > human > insect vector naturally. Fleas, and the rats they lived upon, spread boubounic plague through europe and asia!
Epidemiological studies have shown some pretty unique pathogen expansions, even without being guided by man. It is very likely this is the case with ticks - lyme and coinfections simply "live" in these ticks, and go through their lifecycle anywhere there are mammalian hosts, without interference.
As I mentioned above, its not that I don't think the government wouldn't experiment on its own citizens but lets break it down - knowing what we know about lyme infection where is the "experiment". Who is monitoring it? What are the controls? Lyme affects people in all walks of life, all ages, races, genders. There's no standardized diagnostic protocol. If this was all a government experiment, don't you think we'd all be closely monitored by IDSA/CDC doctors and asked to go to "special" treatment centers, rather than denied care? The average primary care provider can't even diagnose lyme, so its not like they could be gaining infection data from labs... unless....
///////// Using the "Government Experiment" theory, the most logical conclusion is that our LLMDs are all in on it, right? They are the only ones who could be possibly monitoring us, and sending back all our data? Maybe we HAVE been shunted to special treatment centers without knowing us! Yes, they isolated us from the rest of the medical profession and then created ILADS as a front for their research! ////////
Sorry to shout but I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THE ABOVE. I'm simply stating how easy it is to form a conspiracy theory based on a small amount of evidence and logical deductions thereof. Again, THE ABOVE WAS A COMPLETELY FALLACIOUS EXAMPLE MEANT TO PROVE A POINT.
Remember that Operation Paperclip scientists didn't all work on bioweapons. Many of them were pioneers in nuclear physics and rocketry. In truth, the US and USSR space programs both benefited greatly from these scientists, many of whom had no desire to work for Nazis in the first place.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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glm1111
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posted
If you look at all the different diseases Lyme mimics and is misdiagnosed as, you wouldn't need a first hand monitor because there are subsets of groups such as Als, Ms, lupus, chronic fatigue, alzheimers, autism etc. seeing many different medical specialists. Plenty of data here.
BB has been found in all of these groups. Perhaps the "Experiment" is to monitor how many people can be incapacited by this bacteria and in what way.
As far as Malaria goes, it is a single parasite carried by the mosquito. You never hear that people infected with malaria have co-infections.
I just don't believe that it is happenstance that these ticks are carrying the exact same infections.
Operation Paperclip is a well documented "Experiment" and not part of any conspiracy theory.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Even if this was the case, ALS/MS/Lupus/CFS etc.. are not ALL caused by lyme. For instance, there are people with CFS that is entirely viral based. How would you, with all this data, sort the ones that were caused by tick borne diseases, from others that were not, especially if most people with the aforementioned conditions never get tested for lyme? Sure, Bb has been found, but not found in every single person with these ailments. Thus it isn't something that yields and reasonable data as you can't come down to a single variable.
As far as all ticks having all coinfections, I don't believe this is the case. There are multiple varieties of every infection. Bb Lyme is though to be different from the Lyme infection carried by LoneStar ticks, B. lonestari. Babesia WA-1 is different from other Babesia strains etc... there are many variations in the infections carried by the ticks, the ticks themselves, and how we are infected.
Some people here have no coinfections - is this because their immune system fought them off? Or because that particular tick wasn't hosting any at the moment it bit them? Too many variables to point to a single infection profile.
There are plenty of vectors (insect and otherwise) that can carry multiple pathogens naturally.
Operation Paperclip, as I said before has no nefarious connotations. Here is some information on the subject - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip . I know it is part of a wiki, but it gives a good overview of the scientists involved.
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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glm1111
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Member # 16556
posted
Sorry, I meant to refer to MKUltra as far as the LSD Experiements which are well documented. The co-infection testing is not always that accurate.
But the fact remains that the same co-infections such as erlichiosis, bart and babs can be found on the East Coast as well as the West Coast.
The numbers of people having the same co-infections is very high.
Why would people in California have the same co-infections as the people say in Pa, N.J. or N.Y?
I'm sure there are some variables, but still way too coincidental.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I think it was all a mistake, a long series of mistakes through ignorance of what they were actually achieving, probably in the late 1940s then the 1950s, and it happened on both sides of the Atlantic, wherever people were working on relapsing fever and bartonella and brucellosis etc..
Something might have been engineered without the scientists knowing or realising their early attempts at gene transfer had taken place.
Remeber that in 1974/75 there was a moratorium on all genetic work, all over the world, with huge meetings and conferences to sit down and eventually work out the GMAG safety rules.
It took until the mid to late sixties before documentation began to come out with increasing numbers of cases of neuro-symptoms, all over Europe, but which were deliberately written off in the Lyme Connecticut outbreak as arthritis of a few joints. And the literature was sort of taken over by the US Yale bunch and the EIS
Gradually CFS/ME/FM became common afflictions which were becoming so numerous that a Yuppie Flu propaganda was begun, plus the Stress and Functional illness (ie it's all in your head)propaganda that the shrinks and therapists could happily go along with, especially as there are far too few neurologists in medicine.
It was never deliberate, just a mistake, and every one in biowarfare research was probably looking at borrelia and the spirochaetes since 1920.
How about what the Brits were doing in the 1950s, off Scotlands's coast, then off the Bahamas? Some of the details are still Top Secret but in pub med there's an abstract describing dissemination of LIVE organisms over rafts of different lab animals. The organisms included venezuelan tick borne encephalitis virus.
Med Confl Surviv. 2003 Oct-Dec;19(4):285-302.
Seascape with monkeys and guinea-pigs: Britain's biological weapons research programme, 1948-54.
Willis EA. Medact, Grayston Centre, London N1 6HT. [email protected]
The British biological weapons (BW) research programme based at Porton Down continued after the Second World War.
Five series of BW experiments with animals at sea were undertaken to supplement laboratory work.
The causative organisms for plague, brucellosis, tularemia and later Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis and Vaccinia viruses were tested in the Caribbean near Antigua in the late 1940s, in Hebridean waters (north-west Scotland) in the early 1950s and off Nassau in the Bahamas in 1953-54.
In September 1952, at the end of Operation 'Cauldron' off the Isle of Lewis, a trawler, the Carella, passed through the danger area when a toxic cloud had been released and was covertly watched until the incubation period had passed in case those on board had come into contact with the plague bacillus.
Publicity about the trials was avoided, but a press statement was issued in March 1954. The last series provoked sustained agitation in Cuba. More recently an outline of the sequence has emerged in the UK parliamentary record and in Porton's official history, and a fuller account of the Scottish trials has awakened some interest locally.
posted
This is an interesting discussion and I regret not having time right now to comment on a lot of points raised. I hope to later.
But in the meantime, Blackstone, I would like to put something to you. You are speaking to us as if you have special "inside" knowledge on the methods and goals of US biowarfare labs.
You cannot possibly have this knowledge unless you are someone who is, or has been, involved in that work. Or at the very least, has or had a very high level security clearance to visit such labs, or discuss classified matters with the scientists concerned.
So, if you are, or even were in the past, an "insider" in that way, that would call into question my ability to trust your information.
You would be under an oath not to reveal anything to compromise the work in question. If you were involved in it, or indeed any biowarfare work, you would be strongly motivated to stop people discovering facts about it that current military policy dictates should remain hidden.
You would not be an impartial source of information, even if you were a Lyme sufferer yourself.
I am not trying to get at you personally, Blackstone, or offend you in any way. I'm just making a point.
If you have no connection, past or present, with the US or any country's biowarfare research, then we would have no reason to distrust your information. But, on the other hand, you would not have any more information than the next john, would you?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Blackstone, you are right, but you will never convince sparkle and her friends who have been pushing these conspiracy theories for years and will never change their minds. They grab information indiscriminately and shove it together in a way that looks suspicious. And call the rest of us dupes for not believing them. It really is tiresome and makes lymies look like nutcases.
Paranoia is a symptom of lyme.
Posts: 8430 | From Not available | Registered: Oct 2000
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
I haven't read the whole thing yet but here is the original document from the Wisconsin Medical Society. http://tinyurl.com/d635uc
Here is another document referred to by the above document. It is bluebook at the USAMRIID site. "USAMRIID's Medical Management of Biological Casualties Handbook" http://tinyurl.com/db48yw
Lyme is not mentioned in there but other tick borne infections are. Q Fever, flaviruses and Tulleremia.
Even though I've read things from reputable sources that say that lyme was studied and I believe that to be true, there is no doubt whatsoever that these other TBI's have been studied. Whose to say that some of the ticks that were studied for these other illnesses didn't have borrelia that was along for the ride AND god knows what other pathogens that they were experimenting with?
Accidental dissemenation of these infections would not be a surprise. Consider the demise of the dutch duck industry and the possibility that Plum Island may have been involved. http://tinyurl.com/c5ozdt
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I really don't feel that having the same organisms residing in the same tick that is present the whole country over, is anything to be alarmed about. Like my malaria/mosquito example, closely related or the same species of tick/mosquito can carry the same (or similar) organisms. Many sorts of small animals can carry Giardia. Fleas can carry all sorts of things, if they bite infected mammals. Heck, look all all sorts of human vector diseases, like influenza!
There's nothing too unusual about this. I'm not sure why you think this is a smoking gun? If organisms couldn't spread across physical expanses and through populations, there would not be any reason for the study of epidemiology!
As far as my "inside" knowledge is concerned, I shall say that I am only espousing my own opinion, based on being somewhat well-connected to individuals in the field. Perhaps if I wasn't sick in the first place, I would be able to be posting this from within the NIH, CDC, or Fort Dietrich, but this is not the case. I don't have access to the director of the CIA or anything, but I do have enough connections to know that there are a lot of people out there who are not doing amoral research methodology, and the idea of Lyme as an intentional uncontrolled infection of American citizens is not only immoral, but strategically and tactically unsound.
I'm not saying there is no chance of something like this happening, but just that from my research and those of my colleagues, it is not believed to be in effect. If you feel that I am somehow compromised, I'm sorry I can do nothing to change that. I'm just trying to pass along what information I can, and supporting theories and evidence behind it.
I find accidental dissemination a lot more probable, but even then it may not be the "creation" of the vector-borne illness epidemic, considering that Bb and friends have been present for years prior to US military research, and in some cases prior to the US existing at all!
Despite this heated discussion, I'd like to offer everyone a happy easter for those who celebrate it!
Posts: 690 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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TerryK
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 8552
posted
The U.S. Governement has earned the distrust of U.S. Citizens. Take a look at history, or at least some of the history that we know to be fact.
The Tuskegee experiement is just one of many. Do you think the government would have voluntary divulged this information? Of course not, they were forced.
Nuclear waste was released on a population without their knowledge or consent and we only found out about it because of the freedom of information act. NOT because the government was concerned for the safety of it's citizens health or wanted to own up to what they had done. To this day, few people who live in the area seem to be aware of The Green Run or similar experiments.
Around the time of this release, all of my mother's hair fell out. She had no health problems at the time and she was a young woman. She was a Registered Nurse with access to doctors who tried to help her figure it out but they never did figure it out.
There is a very high incidence of thyroid dysfunction and cancer in the area. Known health effects of radiation. The U.S. Governement says there is no relationship to Hanford. HA!!
After the freedom of information act I found scanned documents on a U.S. Governement site that talked about The Green Run. I was shocked because I'd never heard of it. Shortly after that, the document disappeared and a disclaimer was put up that said that no such thing happened, that the readers had misinterpreted. Now it is talked about on the Washington State page above. Hmmmmm.....who is lieing!!
Being told that you are NUTS because you entertain the possibility that the U.S. Government is involved in something that impacts people without their knowledge is a way to control people from finding out what they don't want us to know.
I think it's NUTS not to investigate all possibilities. We may find the key to a cure in some of those possibilities.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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'Kete-tracker
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 17189
posted
Hoping everyone had a nice Easter dinner.
I found an interesting section of the book by Karen Vanderhoof-Forschner (contributor- Willy Burgdorfer!) called 'Everything You need to Know About Lyme Disease [& other tick-borne disorders]'
(Ha! well, not Everything I need to know, but a lot )
Click on Preview & Goto page 39- Phase I: A Century of Obscurity.
I'll make no further comment except to have the reader take note of the statement, "For the 1st time (1970s), an incidence of EM known with certainty to have been acquired in the U.S...was reported [on] a patient...bitten by a tick...in Wisconsin" & then have the reader watch the YouTube video link I gave above, where the older sister speaks specifically of NY docs viewing the EM rash on her back in 1967. And that's only 1 example, I'm sure.
Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Japan's Secret Weapon was written in 1944, sixty-five years ago. You may have a hard time believing this if you read the table of contents; you'll be stunned if you actually read the book. I took a few minutes to transpose the inside cover, see below. (Available by special request from your library -- just call or reserve the book online.)
I think if people read the book, it would change their mind on some of these issues that are discussed in this topic. As well, talk to your friends from other other cultures and generations, you may be surprised with the corroborative stories revealed by others that can embellish on these strange facts in history. Yes, I said FACTS; not tales. Not conspiracies. And amazingly, so long ago! _________________________________________________
Japan's Secret Weapon By Barclay Moon Newman � 1944
Table of Contents
I OLIGODYNAMIC WARFARE
II WARNINGS AND UNDERSTATEMENTS
lll MIYAGAWA SPREADS CULTURE--OF A.'VIRUS
IV SPIROCHETE WARFARE
V BLACK FEVER, OR KALA-AZAR
VI TSUTSUGAMUSHI FEVER
VII BLACK DEATH AND OHARA'S DISEASE
VIII LEPROSY AS A WEAPON
Xl FUNGUS WARFARE
X JAPANESE ENCEPHALITIS
XI CANCER-CAUSING CHEMICALS
XII DISEASE HAZARD No. 1
XIII INVENTION OF SECRET WEAPONS
XIV MIYAGAWA COCKTAIL
XV AMOK
XVI "AMERICAN SLEEPING SICKNESS"
XVII BIOCRACY
CLUES AND SOURCES OF EVIDENCE
INDEX
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Blackstone, I have never said that the US govt deliberately set out to incapacitate its own citizens. There are a number of scenarios that could have resulted in the escape of a modified pathogen into the environment, including accident, experiment, and a strike by a hostile nation or organisation.
You may be "well-connected" to biowarfare scientists but they, presumably, would not share classified information with you over a beer. If you have that type of information, you would have security clearance to have it, which puts you, ideologically, amongst those who would wish to maintain the coverup.
Pat Smith was shown a fantastic array of equipment to protect soldiers against ticks in general and Lyme in particular when she visited Aberdeen Proving Ground some years ago.
As for you vouching for the "fact" that your acquaintaances in biowarfare science do only "moral" research, that's a matter of opinion.
In my opinion, when you're dealing with a technology that can be used EQUALLY to defend as to attack using WMD, morals don't even get a look in.
I am not saying every scientist gets involved in that work for nefarious purposes. I'm sure most do get involved because they want to defend their country against such horrific weapons.
However, most must realise that the use of the organisms they study or even develop may not be under their control. That is why several prominent scientists have spoken out and warned about the dual use nature of this research.
Quite apart from that, there is also a conflict of interest between military men who want certain facts kept secret in the "national interest" (as they see it)- even if it is for defensive purposes - and the right of a child to have a normal healthy childhood, the right of an adult to be able to walk and talk and work, etc..
Especially when, on a global scale you may have to multiply that so that it becomes the rights of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of human beings to a life?
Who in society should then be allowed to make the decision, as to which is more important?
Elena
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Lou - I'm not "pushing" or "shoving" anything.
I thought people had a right to speak freely here.
If I'm mistaken, please notify me. There are others who do the research & make up their minds to think what seems logical to them. Whether it's thinking Lyme evolved or was made in a lab...
I'm not here to push an agenda.
I just think it's pretty hard to get well when you don't know what you are fighting.
I've done the research. I wasn't the one who brought up this topic.
It doesn't really matter to me. I already know what I need to know about it.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Sparkle (et al), well said -- especially this:
"...I just think it's pretty hard to get well when you don't know what you are fighting..."
The quintessential point of discourse in this forum. Is it not?!
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Your comment on climate change in the US doesn't really answer my question. I asked, why, when we look at the old European reports on what we now know was Lyme, we find precious little report of neuro Lyme before the WW2 era, but plenty of neurological Lyme after?
Even if warmer winters are increasing tick numbers and survivability globally, that would not explain why Lyme borreliosis should transform itself into a disease much more oriented to the human central and peripheral nervous system than before.
Neuro-Lyme is a reality. But why does it appear to be new?
Elena
quote:Originally posted by 'Kete-tracker: ... Elena- U make a good point. But we DID have a population boom as well as the first real uptick in winter temps post WWII. For example, downtown Concord NH was REGULARILY down to 30 below in early Jan. for a few dawns up thru the 1930s. By the late '50s, it Rarely dipped below -20F. NOW it Rarely gets to -10F! Ticks are known to survive warmer winters better. (Field mice, too.) I think It's all about our changing environment along with the never-waning efforts of organisms to survive...
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Operation Paperclip, as I said before has no nefarious connotations. ...
That's an extraordinary remark to make. Operation Paperclip involved the recruitment of top Nazi scientists, for example Erich Traub, Hitler's leading biowarfareman who was subsequently invited to ***head*** scientific research at Plum Island. That info is well-documented and not in dispute.
You don't find the recruitment of Nazi WMD scientists nefarious?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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