I think there have been some very well-written contributions from some people here which adequately say some of what I wanted to say, so I'll try just to deal with issues not covered.
Blackstone, you hinted you have or have had "access" to info about biowarfare beyond the average citizen. If that is so, I am surprised that you could imply that ticks would not be considered as a vector for biowarfare.
Millions of ticks have been raised in the world's biowar labs over the decades - including Plum Island. This is a simple fact, not particularly concealed by entities like the DoD.
While it's true that a pathogen being studied for its military value does not necessarily mean it has one, nevertheless there is enough evidence that borrelia is considered of value - if it was not, why has it been studied for ***decades***? Why was it not abandoned in the thirties?
The book Sparkle referred to ("Japan's Secret Weapon" by Barclay Newman ) reveals the Japanese had an almost obsessional interest in spirochaetes as weapons of war, with a whole chapter devoted to this topic.
In particular they were interested in cultivating what appears to have been L-forms for aerial dissemination - no ticks needed there.
Sixty to seventy years later, we find constant reminders that modern war labs are studying Lyme. If Lyme borreliae were found to be unsuited as weapons, why has the interest been sustained over decades?
As for the argument that this is all for "defense", I'm sorry. Some of the world's top scientists have admitted that all this work is "dual purpose". It can be used for offensive purposes as well as defense.
The very fact that the work is being done, makes it easy for the leaders of nations hostile to ours to tell their populations that we are preparing to strike them with biological WMD, and that therefore they must develop their own "defense".
I disagree that there is an unavoidable blowback effect on home troops - the aim would be to use either vaccines, protective clothing and chemicals, or early treatment with specific drugs to ensure that those dispersing tick-borne or aerosolised agents dont become infected. If the blowback argument were real, no vectors would ever be studied as bioweapons.
As for the delay before incapacitation, that could well be one of the reasons borreliae ***are**** attractive to bioweaponeers - it's often a strategy to lure masses of soldiers into a place so that they suffer disaster later.
If an agent incapacitated immediately, only the first into an area would be hit - any further troop movements would be stopped till a way to avoid or deal with the danger was found. In the meantime the obviousness of the attack would give the other side the "moral" justification for using WMD of their own.
As for the US government issuing a cure if they had it - well, no, not necessarily. If military minds judge that it is more important, for whatever strategic reasons, to keep info about Lyme under wraps than to have sympathy for the hundreds of thousands of "collateral damage", then that info will remain under wraps.
DLL, you said they have "readily admitted" studying Lyme as a bioweapon - well, no, they haven't at all. Officially they deny it. How could they say in one breath that it's easily cured in 3 weeks and in another that it needs to be studied under BSL4 (top security) conditions?
What has been happening, is that I and a few others have spent a lot of time ferreting out and bringing out in the open various documents that prove that this work was, and still is, going on. Their response has been to claim certain things have been "printing mistakes", to fudge the issue, or to deny them altogether.
For example, the UK govt rep told parliament some years ago that no research had been done on Lyme for years; however, I found a document clearly showing that research HAD been done - in Porton Down, our top biowarfare lab.
As far as the mouse pelt theory is concerned, this goes against a lot of current ecological research which shows that ticks rapidly desert the cold body of a dead animal and search for something live.
If Lyme was in the US for a century, why was the first EM rash only documented in 1970?
There were cases of ACA, a late Lyme manifestation, in immigrants to USA from eastern Europe. But no American records of EM.
Kete, you said anthrax has been around for centuries and was never "man-made". That's an extraordinary remark to make. It's well known that what was released in 2001 was weaponised agent.
DLL, there is nothing "out of context" about my quote from the Wisconsin article. Th entire article is about bioweapons, the quote mentioning Lyme is immediately preceded and immediately followed by a sentence discussing bioweapons. There is nothing unclear or ambiguous about what the author wrote.
If you have any doubts, I will happily send you the entire article.
I am pretty tired, to be honest, or hearing this constant mantra that we must not discuss the biowarfare aspect of Lyme in case people think we're crazy.
If we have facts, bona fide evidence, we have every right to discuss it. There is enough circumstantial evidence already for the Lyme community, if it got its act together, to demand a public inquiry in every country in which this coverup is being upheld.
DLL, what would you have said to the families of the soldiers who died or became disabled for life as a result of the phony common cold experiments that our Ministry of Defence conducted here for decades? Should they have not fought for justice (and eventually, as they did, won recognition in court) in case people thought they were crazy? Should they have just let it go?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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jt345
Unregistered
posted
Hi Elena
You are right. But when I played poker I never showed my hand too the people I was playing with.
Soemtimes it is too the players advantage too play dumb.
I don't think We will ever know the whole story. What I do think is we have too deal with what We have right now. Something that We can do is support our ill.
One of the oldest tactics in covert actions is to divide and conquer. I sure hope this will not be our fate. You people amaze Me at Your resorcsefulness,to get information. I take my hat off too You.
I hope You all have a peaceful and happy Easter weekend.
posted
ELB - There is a huge amount of scary government research into many things. Back in the 50s, one of our "big things" to combat the Soviet spy initiatives was psychic research. Go all over the net - there are archives of papers about the "stargate project" for precognition, telepathy and all that sort of thing. The government brought in hundreds of fortune tellers, police "psychics", monks, and others who were supposed to have all sorts of powers. There are tons of documents about their experiments, but unless you believe the "X-Files" ending where it is all a vast conspiracy, most of these archives ended with the idea that "Psychic intelligence gathering has proved unreliable and inconclusive at best"
I make this comparison because as I said before, just because there is research being done, doesn't necessarily indicate malice, or even effectiveness!
You ask about why spirochete disease continue to be studied - well, probably for the same reason WE are doing so - compared to other bacteria, they are incredibly complex. The fact they are still being studied is a good sign. It means someone appreciates their complexity and danger. It doesn't necessarily mean they have an offensive use.
While all this research is dual purpose of course, defense is often the first priority. We can't have presidents, generals, statesmen and soldiers with persistent infections of any kind. Research on lyme and other vector borne condition is more suited to defense. For reasons I listed above, lyme would be be an unreliably dangerous offensive weapon - It is indiscriminate, hard to direct, long progression, and hard to diagnose for your own troops.
It just isn't a very good bioweapon. Now, maybe some military scientists are studying lyme to say... I don't know, give Anthrax the ability to shift into a cystic form to make it harder to cure or some such. Things like that could explain offensive research in addition to defensive ones, but lyme itself is a terrible bioweapon.
In response to blowback - where are these miracle vaccines and repellents? There is no evidence of their existence, or else we'd be using them! There's no reason to believe that they're locked in some pentagon bunker somewhere. The military still relies on their old standard of DEET for repelling just about all insect vectors. Blowback is probably one of the primary reasons that vector borne biowarfare, in conjunction with those I listed above, has never been implemented successfully in the modern era.
While you're theory of latent infection would be viable for another disease, it doesn't make a lot of sense for lyme. How many of you, if you had to, could defend your home from an intruder today? How many of us have still made the trek to the grocery store, even after years of infection? How many people had "lyme rage" incidents? If our country was being assaulted, we would still be dangerous today! Latent symptom presentation works great for something like ebola - by the time the enemy arrives and figures it out, they're all dead. This is in a number of days, not years. Especially considering lyme hinges on being bitten by a tick, a relatively random occurrence, its not a tactical decision to lure a few of your guys into the "range" and have them carry the pathogen back - it isn't even communicable! Again, lyme fails where something like ebola or anthrax would succeed. Until I see an airborne, 95% exposure > infection rate, crippling within a few days version of lyme, I don't see any evidence of a weaponized pathogen.
Especially when dealing with the government, never ascribe to malice what could be explained by stupidity or embarrassment. Even supposing a bunch of research ticks escaped from plum island, it is much more likely it was an "oops" rather than a "Mwa ha ha, we shall release these into our general populace!". If there is in fact a coverup, it is most likely because there's egg on someone's face.
Plum Island, Fort Dietrich, Groom Lake etc... there's just as a good a chance that researchers in all these places are working to find a better treatment or cure. With a disease that a senator's son could be infected with while playing in his backyard, its hard to believe that there isn't a lot of positive research being done as well. I personally know of several projects I can't expound upon, but suffice it to say that every single government researcher isn't simply there to bring evil to the world. If the NIH, CDC, or DOD could produce a series of treatments that would eliminate vector borne pathogens, wouldn't you consider this heroic?
In conclusion, I don't think that we have to shy away from this sort of discussion, but it really feels like many people are extrapolating lots of fantastical scenarios from extremely limited evidence, and this doesn't help our cause. Admittedly, it is a lot easier to blame someone for this, because that suggest they could do something to rectify the situation - unfortunately I don't feel this is the case.
Posts: 691 | From East coast, USA | Registered: Jun 2006
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Geneal
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10375
posted
There are currently over 300 strains of Lyme known world wide.
Some researchers have suggested that the Tchefuncte Indians
Showed possible/probable signs of one of these strains.
The Indian Buriel grounds are dated 300BC to 500AD.
I live on the Tchefuncte River.
Some strains are virulent and some aren't.
May explain why some of us have such invasive symptoms
While others do not. May not be the immune system at all.
May be related to the specific sub-species we were exposed to.
I think the bigger problem is the lack of awareness and education.
I mean someone had to classify and categorize all of these strains of Lyme.
I had heard of Lyme but only knew it to be a Tick Borne Vector
That only happened in the Northeast of US.
Now I know better.
There still is a concious effort to stifle any information/education
Regarding Lyme disease and symptoms.
That seems to be a huge "hidden agenda".
I think that by isolating bb and using blood sucking insects
As a vector is entirely possible.
Thus, in my opinion, should be considered a bio-weapon.
Hugs,
Geneal
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glm1111
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posted
What about the government experiments in the 1960s with deliberately using LSD on U. S. citizens for experimental purposes?
Known as PROJECT MKULTRA or Operation Paperclip. The subjects included CIA employees and military personnel.
Over thirty Universities & Institutions were involved in extensive testing and experimentation on unwitting citizens on "all social levels"
Which would say to me that the medical community would have to of been very cooperative to say the least.
Very nieve to think that the government wouldn't be involved in biowarfare. Fantastical scenario? I don't think so.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I never said the government wasn't involved in biological warfare research. I said the results of that research would unlikely be a viable lyme bioweapon. The government has done some horrible things in the past that benefited them. MKUltra's use of LSD (and other drugs) was an easy to monitor, instant presentation, well understood and easily dispersed agent. The complete opposite of lyme. Even so, the experiments were later discredited as lacking any sort of viable scientific evidence, as the observers didn't properly administer the scientific method.
I'm not sure what Operation Paperclip has to do with this. All it did was bring former German scientists to the US, including Werner Von Braun.
I'm not arguing that the government would shy away from unethical things - I'm saying that in a cold, hard tactical and pragmatic sense, lyme makes a poor biological weapon, and the government messes up more than it succeeds.
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glm1111
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posted
If it was not deliberate than why are most of us suffering from the same co-infections?
I find it highly unlikely that people in the Northeast, Southeast, West and in every state inbetween are infected with the same pathogens if these ticks were not injected.
The point about the MKUtra experiment is that the government has no qualms about experimenting on us. If Lyme is not a bioweapon maybe this is just another one of their sick experiments.
The Nazi scientists they brought here after WW11 and placed in these labs are the same ones that were doing horrific experiments in Germany.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I think that's a little like asking "How can people all over the world get malaria?" Malaria resides in tropical mosquitoes in locations all over the world. This isn't because of any notorious man-made dispersion, but because the protozoa simply is carried by that particular insect > human > insect vector naturally. Fleas, and the rats they lived upon, spread boubounic plague through europe and asia!
Epidemiological studies have shown some pretty unique pathogen expansions, even without being guided by man. It is very likely this is the case with ticks - lyme and coinfections simply "live" in these ticks, and go through their lifecycle anywhere there are mammalian hosts, without interference.
As I mentioned above, its not that I don't think the government wouldn't experiment on its own citizens but lets break it down - knowing what we know about lyme infection where is the "experiment". Who is monitoring it? What are the controls? Lyme affects people in all walks of life, all ages, races, genders. There's no standardized diagnostic protocol. If this was all a government experiment, don't you think we'd all be closely monitored by IDSA/CDC doctors and asked to go to "special" treatment centers, rather than denied care? The average primary care provider can't even diagnose lyme, so its not like they could be gaining infection data from labs... unless....
///////// Using the "Government Experiment" theory, the most logical conclusion is that our LLMDs are all in on it, right? They are the only ones who could be possibly monitoring us, and sending back all our data? Maybe we HAVE been shunted to special treatment centers without knowing us! Yes, they isolated us from the rest of the medical profession and then created ILADS as a front for their research! ////////
Sorry to shout but I DO NOT BELIEVE ANY OF THE ABOVE. I'm simply stating how easy it is to form a conspiracy theory based on a small amount of evidence and logical deductions thereof. Again, THE ABOVE WAS A COMPLETELY FALLACIOUS EXAMPLE MEANT TO PROVE A POINT.
Remember that Operation Paperclip scientists didn't all work on bioweapons. Many of them were pioneers in nuclear physics and rocketry. In truth, the US and USSR space programs both benefited greatly from these scientists, many of whom had no desire to work for Nazis in the first place.
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glm1111
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posted
If you look at all the different diseases Lyme mimics and is misdiagnosed as, you wouldn't need a first hand monitor because there are subsets of groups such as Als, Ms, lupus, chronic fatigue, alzheimers, autism etc. seeing many different medical specialists. Plenty of data here.
BB has been found in all of these groups. Perhaps the "Experiment" is to monitor how many people can be incapacited by this bacteria and in what way.
As far as Malaria goes, it is a single parasite carried by the mosquito. You never hear that people infected with malaria have co-infections.
I just don't believe that it is happenstance that these ticks are carrying the exact same infections.
Operation Paperclip is a well documented "Experiment" and not part of any conspiracy theory.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Even if this was the case, ALS/MS/Lupus/CFS etc.. are not ALL caused by lyme. For instance, there are people with CFS that is entirely viral based. How would you, with all this data, sort the ones that were caused by tick borne diseases, from others that were not, especially if most people with the aforementioned conditions never get tested for lyme? Sure, Bb has been found, but not found in every single person with these ailments. Thus it isn't something that yields and reasonable data as you can't come down to a single variable.
As far as all ticks having all coinfections, I don't believe this is the case. There are multiple varieties of every infection. Bb Lyme is though to be different from the Lyme infection carried by LoneStar ticks, B. lonestari. Babesia WA-1 is different from other Babesia strains etc... there are many variations in the infections carried by the ticks, the ticks themselves, and how we are infected.
Some people here have no coinfections - is this because their immune system fought them off? Or because that particular tick wasn't hosting any at the moment it bit them? Too many variables to point to a single infection profile.
There are plenty of vectors (insect and otherwise) that can carry multiple pathogens naturally.
Operation Paperclip, as I said before has no nefarious connotations. Here is some information on the subject - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip . I know it is part of a wiki, but it gives a good overview of the scientists involved.
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glm1111
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posted
Sorry, I meant to refer to MKUltra as far as the LSD Experiements which are well documented. The co-infection testing is not always that accurate.
But the fact remains that the same co-infections such as erlichiosis, bart and babs can be found on the East Coast as well as the West Coast.
The numbers of people having the same co-infections is very high.
Why would people in California have the same co-infections as the people say in Pa, N.J. or N.Y?
I'm sure there are some variables, but still way too coincidental.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
I think it was all a mistake, a long series of mistakes through ignorance of what they were actually achieving, probably in the late 1940s then the 1950s, and it happened on both sides of the Atlantic, wherever people were working on relapsing fever and bartonella and brucellosis etc..
Something might have been engineered without the scientists knowing or realising their early attempts at gene transfer had taken place.
Remeber that in 1974/75 there was a moratorium on all genetic work, all over the world, with huge meetings and conferences to sit down and eventually work out the GMAG safety rules.
It took until the mid to late sixties before documentation began to come out with increasing numbers of cases of neuro-symptoms, all over Europe, but which were deliberately written off in the Lyme Connecticut outbreak as arthritis of a few joints. And the literature was sort of taken over by the US Yale bunch and the EIS
Gradually CFS/ME/FM became common afflictions which were becoming so numerous that a Yuppie Flu propaganda was begun, plus the Stress and Functional illness (ie it's all in your head)propaganda that the shrinks and therapists could happily go along with, especially as there are far too few neurologists in medicine.
It was never deliberate, just a mistake, and every one in biowarfare research was probably looking at borrelia and the spirochaetes since 1920.
How about what the Brits were doing in the 1950s, off Scotlands's coast, then off the Bahamas? Some of the details are still Top Secret but in pub med there's an abstract describing dissemination of LIVE organisms over rafts of different lab animals. The organisms included venezuelan tick borne encephalitis virus.
Med Confl Surviv. 2003 Oct-Dec;19(4):285-302.
Seascape with monkeys and guinea-pigs: Britain's biological weapons research programme, 1948-54.
Willis EA. Medact, Grayston Centre, London N1 6HT. [email protected]
The British biological weapons (BW) research programme based at Porton Down continued after the Second World War.
Five series of BW experiments with animals at sea were undertaken to supplement laboratory work.
The causative organisms for plague, brucellosis, tularemia and later Venezuelan equine encephalomyelitis and Vaccinia viruses were tested in the Caribbean near Antigua in the late 1940s, in Hebridean waters (north-west Scotland) in the early 1950s and off Nassau in the Bahamas in 1953-54.
In September 1952, at the end of Operation 'Cauldron' off the Isle of Lewis, a trawler, the Carella, passed through the danger area when a toxic cloud had been released and was covertly watched until the incubation period had passed in case those on board had come into contact with the plague bacillus.
Publicity about the trials was avoided, but a press statement was issued in March 1954. The last series provoked sustained agitation in Cuba. More recently an outline of the sequence has emerged in the UK parliamentary record and in Porton's official history, and a fuller account of the Scottish trials has awakened some interest locally.
posted
This is an interesting discussion and I regret not having time right now to comment on a lot of points raised. I hope to later.
But in the meantime, Blackstone, I would like to put something to you. You are speaking to us as if you have special "inside" knowledge on the methods and goals of US biowarfare labs.
You cannot possibly have this knowledge unless you are someone who is, or has been, involved in that work. Or at the very least, has or had a very high level security clearance to visit such labs, or discuss classified matters with the scientists concerned.
So, if you are, or even were in the past, an "insider" in that way, that would call into question my ability to trust your information.
You would be under an oath not to reveal anything to compromise the work in question. If you were involved in it, or indeed any biowarfare work, you would be strongly motivated to stop people discovering facts about it that current military policy dictates should remain hidden.
You would not be an impartial source of information, even if you were a Lyme sufferer yourself.
I am not trying to get at you personally, Blackstone, or offend you in any way. I'm just making a point.
If you have no connection, past or present, with the US or any country's biowarfare research, then we would have no reason to distrust your information. But, on the other hand, you would not have any more information than the next john, would you?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Blackstone, you are right, but you will never convince sparkle and her friends who have been pushing these conspiracy theories for years and will never change their minds. They grab information indiscriminately and shove it together in a way that looks suspicious. And call the rest of us dupes for not believing them. It really is tiresome and makes lymies look like nutcases.
Paranoia is a symptom of lyme.
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TerryK
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Member # 8552
posted
I haven't read the whole thing yet but here is the original document from the Wisconsin Medical Society. http://tinyurl.com/d635uc
Here is another document referred to by the above document. It is bluebook at the USAMRIID site. "USAMRIID's Medical Management of Biological Casualties Handbook" http://tinyurl.com/db48yw
Lyme is not mentioned in there but other tick borne infections are. Q Fever, flaviruses and Tulleremia.
Even though I've read things from reputable sources that say that lyme was studied and I believe that to be true, there is no doubt whatsoever that these other TBI's have been studied. Whose to say that some of the ticks that were studied for these other illnesses didn't have borrelia that was along for the ride AND god knows what other pathogens that they were experimenting with?
Accidental dissemenation of these infections would not be a surprise. Consider the demise of the dutch duck industry and the possibility that Plum Island may have been involved. http://tinyurl.com/c5ozdt
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I really don't feel that having the same organisms residing in the same tick that is present the whole country over, is anything to be alarmed about. Like my malaria/mosquito example, closely related or the same species of tick/mosquito can carry the same (or similar) organisms. Many sorts of small animals can carry Giardia. Fleas can carry all sorts of things, if they bite infected mammals. Heck, look all all sorts of human vector diseases, like influenza!
There's nothing too unusual about this. I'm not sure why you think this is a smoking gun? If organisms couldn't spread across physical expanses and through populations, there would not be any reason for the study of epidemiology!
As far as my "inside" knowledge is concerned, I shall say that I am only espousing my own opinion, based on being somewhat well-connected to individuals in the field. Perhaps if I wasn't sick in the first place, I would be able to be posting this from within the NIH, CDC, or Fort Dietrich, but this is not the case. I don't have access to the director of the CIA or anything, but I do have enough connections to know that there are a lot of people out there who are not doing amoral research methodology, and the idea of Lyme as an intentional uncontrolled infection of American citizens is not only immoral, but strategically and tactically unsound.
I'm not saying there is no chance of something like this happening, but just that from my research and those of my colleagues, it is not believed to be in effect. If you feel that I am somehow compromised, I'm sorry I can do nothing to change that. I'm just trying to pass along what information I can, and supporting theories and evidence behind it.
I find accidental dissemination a lot more probable, but even then it may not be the "creation" of the vector-borne illness epidemic, considering that Bb and friends have been present for years prior to US military research, and in some cases prior to the US existing at all!
Despite this heated discussion, I'd like to offer everyone a happy easter for those who celebrate it!
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TerryK
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posted
The U.S. Governement has earned the distrust of U.S. Citizens. Take a look at history, or at least some of the history that we know to be fact.
The Tuskegee experiement is just one of many. Do you think the government would have voluntary divulged this information? Of course not, they were forced.
Nuclear waste was released on a population without their knowledge or consent and we only found out about it because of the freedom of information act. NOT because the government was concerned for the safety of it's citizens health or wanted to own up to what they had done. To this day, few people who live in the area seem to be aware of The Green Run or similar experiments.
Around the time of this release, all of my mother's hair fell out. She had no health problems at the time and she was a young woman. She was a Registered Nurse with access to doctors who tried to help her figure it out but they never did figure it out.
There is a very high incidence of thyroid dysfunction and cancer in the area. Known health effects of radiation. The U.S. Governement says there is no relationship to Hanford. HA!!
After the freedom of information act I found scanned documents on a U.S. Governement site that talked about The Green Run. I was shocked because I'd never heard of it. Shortly after that, the document disappeared and a disclaimer was put up that said that no such thing happened, that the readers had misinterpreted. Now it is talked about on the Washington State page above. Hmmmmm.....who is lieing!!
Being told that you are NUTS because you entertain the possibility that the U.S. Government is involved in something that impacts people without their knowledge is a way to control people from finding out what they don't want us to know.
I think it's NUTS not to investigate all possibilities. We may find the key to a cure in some of those possibilities.
Terry
Posts: 6286 | From Oregon | Registered: Jan 2006
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'Kete-tracker
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Member # 17189
posted
Hoping everyone had a nice Easter dinner.
I found an interesting section of the book by Karen Vanderhoof-Forschner (contributor- Willy Burgdorfer!) called 'Everything You need to Know About Lyme Disease [& other tick-borne disorders]'
(Ha! well, not Everything I need to know, but a lot )
Click on Preview & Goto page 39- Phase I: A Century of Obscurity.
I'll make no further comment except to have the reader take note of the statement, "For the 1st time (1970s), an incidence of EM known with certainty to have been acquired in the U.S...was reported [on] a patient...bitten by a tick...in Wisconsin" & then have the reader watch the YouTube video link I gave above, where the older sister speaks specifically of NY docs viewing the EM rash on her back in 1967. And that's only 1 example, I'm sure.
Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Japan's Secret Weapon was written in 1944, sixty-five years ago. You may have a hard time believing this if you read the table of contents; you'll be stunned if you actually read the book. I took a few minutes to transpose the inside cover, see below. (Available by special request from your library -- just call or reserve the book online.)
I think if people read the book, it would change their mind on some of these issues that are discussed in this topic. As well, talk to your friends from other other cultures and generations, you may be surprised with the corroborative stories revealed by others that can embellish on these strange facts in history. Yes, I said FACTS; not tales. Not conspiracies. And amazingly, so long ago! _________________________________________________
Japan's Secret Weapon By Barclay Moon Newman � 1944
Table of Contents
I OLIGODYNAMIC WARFARE
II WARNINGS AND UNDERSTATEMENTS
lll MIYAGAWA SPREADS CULTURE--OF A.'VIRUS
IV SPIROCHETE WARFARE
V BLACK FEVER, OR KALA-AZAR
VI TSUTSUGAMUSHI FEVER
VII BLACK DEATH AND OHARA'S DISEASE
VIII LEPROSY AS A WEAPON
Xl FUNGUS WARFARE
X JAPANESE ENCEPHALITIS
XI CANCER-CAUSING CHEMICALS
XII DISEASE HAZARD No. 1
XIII INVENTION OF SECRET WEAPONS
XIV MIYAGAWA COCKTAIL
XV AMOK
XVI "AMERICAN SLEEPING SICKNESS"
XVII BIOCRACY
CLUES AND SOURCES OF EVIDENCE
INDEX
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Blackstone, I have never said that the US govt deliberately set out to incapacitate its own citizens. There are a number of scenarios that could have resulted in the escape of a modified pathogen into the environment, including accident, experiment, and a strike by a hostile nation or organisation.
You may be "well-connected" to biowarfare scientists but they, presumably, would not share classified information with you over a beer. If you have that type of information, you would have security clearance to have it, which puts you, ideologically, amongst those who would wish to maintain the coverup.
Pat Smith was shown a fantastic array of equipment to protect soldiers against ticks in general and Lyme in particular when she visited Aberdeen Proving Ground some years ago.
As for you vouching for the "fact" that your acquaintaances in biowarfare science do only "moral" research, that's a matter of opinion.
In my opinion, when you're dealing with a technology that can be used EQUALLY to defend as to attack using WMD, morals don't even get a look in.
I am not saying every scientist gets involved in that work for nefarious purposes. I'm sure most do get involved because they want to defend their country against such horrific weapons.
However, most must realise that the use of the organisms they study or even develop may not be under their control. That is why several prominent scientists have spoken out and warned about the dual use nature of this research.
Quite apart from that, there is also a conflict of interest between military men who want certain facts kept secret in the "national interest" (as they see it)- even if it is for defensive purposes - and the right of a child to have a normal healthy childhood, the right of an adult to be able to walk and talk and work, etc..
Especially when, on a global scale you may have to multiply that so that it becomes the rights of hundreds of thousands, or even millions of human beings to a life?
Who in society should then be allowed to make the decision, as to which is more important?
Elena
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Lou - I'm not "pushing" or "shoving" anything.
I thought people had a right to speak freely here.
If I'm mistaken, please notify me. There are others who do the research & make up their minds to think what seems logical to them. Whether it's thinking Lyme evolved or was made in a lab...
I'm not here to push an agenda.
I just think it's pretty hard to get well when you don't know what you are fighting.
I've done the research. I wasn't the one who brought up this topic.
It doesn't really matter to me. I already know what I need to know about it.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
Sparkle (et al), well said -- especially this:
"...I just think it's pretty hard to get well when you don't know what you are fighting..."
The quintessential point of discourse in this forum. Is it not?!
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Your comment on climate change in the US doesn't really answer my question. I asked, why, when we look at the old European reports on what we now know was Lyme, we find precious little report of neuro Lyme before the WW2 era, but plenty of neurological Lyme after?
Even if warmer winters are increasing tick numbers and survivability globally, that would not explain why Lyme borreliosis should transform itself into a disease much more oriented to the human central and peripheral nervous system than before.
Neuro-Lyme is a reality. But why does it appear to be new?
Elena
quote:Originally posted by 'Kete-tracker: ... Elena- U make a good point. But we DID have a population boom as well as the first real uptick in winter temps post WWII. For example, downtown Concord NH was REGULARILY down to 30 below in early Jan. for a few dawns up thru the 1930s. By the late '50s, it Rarely dipped below -20F. NOW it Rarely gets to -10F! Ticks are known to survive warmer winters better. (Field mice, too.) I think It's all about our changing environment along with the never-waning efforts of organisms to survive...
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Blackstone: Operation Paperclip, as I said before has no nefarious connotations. ...
That's an extraordinary remark to make. Operation Paperclip involved the recruitment of top Nazi scientists, for example Erich Traub, Hitler's leading biowarfareman who was subsequently invited to ***head*** scientific research at Plum Island. That info is well-documented and not in dispute.
You don't find the recruitment of Nazi WMD scientists nefarious?
Elena
-------------------- Justice will be ours. Posts: 786 | From UK | Registered: Oct 2007
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