posted
Haverford Wellness Center in PA claims it cures 88% of all Lyme, even late-stage, in 56 days. Has anyone heard of this place before???? They apparently follow ILADS-like protocols, but why haven't I heard of them before? Anyone familiar with this place?
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
Impressive site lots of good info on there. Just kinda hard to believe the claims about cure rate.
Posts: 526 | From NJ | Registered: May 2007
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I must admit though from reading their website it seems as if they are very integrative in their approach.
This sounds exactly what I am considering with my LLMD right now which the practice has its own infusion room for IV Chelation, IV nutrition, IV for infection/herbals.
It is an expensive way to treat, but the LLMD is finding a much higher success rate with this and as well as a shorter treatment timeframe.
What my LLMD WON'T do is make a claim like Cured in 56 Days like this website did. That's what got my guard up right away when reading that.
I wouldn't discount the treatment as being so radical as it appears. Apparently, this is starting to emerge as an additional way to treat.
I would just question the claims.
Posts: 103 | From Northern VA | Registered: Apr 2009
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I must admit though from reading their website it seems as if they are very integrative in their approach.
This sounds exactly what I am considering with my LLMD right now which the practice has its own infusion room for IV Chelation, IV nutrition, IV for infection/herbals.
It is an expensive way to treat, but the LLMD is finding a much higher success rate with this and as well as a shorter treatment timeframe.
What my LLMD WON'T do is make a claim like Cured in 56 Days like this website did. That's what got my guard up right away when reading that.
I wouldn't discount the treatment as being so radical as it appears. Apparently, this is starting to emerge as an additional way to treat.
I would just question the claims.
Posts: 103 | From Northern VA | Registered: Apr 2009
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If, without a failproof test, one can't prove a patient HAS Lyme before trx, how does a doctor go about proving that a patient is cured after?
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174
If you're confused, we understand why. Most medical professionals believe Lyme disease exists and can be treated. (1.) Yet, there's much confusion on how to determine the best Lyme disease diagnosis and treatment.
We use a scientific approach to curing Lyme disease. (2.) First we need to feel without a doubt you have the disease. Not just "symptoms" but the Lyme organism. (3.) Then we need to treat the disease until the organism is gone. (4.) Not just when you "feel" better, but when we can verify the disease is gone."
Just about every sentence in that passage is non-Lyme Literate.
1. Lyme Disease's existance is not under contention in any quarter. CHRONIC Lyme is what is under debate by the IDSA folks. This is already getting off to a bad start.
2. There is NO CURE for Lyme Disease. NONE. Nada. Zip. This is cruel to give people false hope of a cure. There is remission, and many ILADS LLMDS are successful at helping most of their patients reach it.
3. Only treating patients in whom they are able to find direct evidence of the organism (I assume either via PCR or culture) is worse than the IDSA guidelines themselves.
Even IDSA research publishers have found PCR testing to be the least accurate of all. Their criteria are even worse than the 2-tier testing (ELISA then Western Blot) recommended by IDSA, which according to a recent Johns Hopkins study, misss 75% of DNA-proven Lyme cases!
4. To say that there is scientific proof of removal of the Lyme organism is a blatant falsehood. There is no such test. If there were, someone would be very wealthy off of it right now.
To summarize, the claims they make are false, and their philosophy and approach to Lyme is based on *worse than* IDSA thinking (eg. you have to prove with tests that you have Lyme to be treated, but via DNA, not just antibodies).
Personally, I would stay as far away from this place as possible.
posted
Hmmmmm........I'm not getting the bad vibes about this place that some of you are. They mention ILADS as an excellent organization. They do NOT mention American Lyme Foundation (IDSA). They accept insurance. They treat aggressively, usually with IV.
They acknowledge that current ELISA and Western Blot have up to 80% false negatives.
Personally, I'm getting good vibes.
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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posted
They do make me worry about their chelation protocols. They say they only use EDTA through IV which causes severe problems in people with mercury poisoning (which a lot of us tend to have from amalgams). People have gotten those IV's and ended up with permanant brain damage and delerium among many other things. The protocol they're refering to is used by the ACAM doctors who are essentially quacks milking money out of people. So they could just be after easy money here.
Posts: 499 | From Indiana | Registered: Oct 2007
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
This is really weird. I literally live a cab ride away from this place. I have never heard of it unless it is fairly new.
I am bothered by the word "cure" also. I do like the integrative approach they use though.
However, I have no venous access (thanks to Lyme) except through a picc line. My retired immunologist lives very close by.
I can always ask him if he ever heard of this place. It doesn't matter though, because I can't afford it and I am having success treating myself,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Five years later hubby is still not cured. This clinic has been around, but the D.O. was not the one who previously got all the publicity.
Some may remember the P.K. protocol and the "Detoxx Book". Hubby was a patient of Dr P.K. and Dr B. in 2004. The phospholipid exchange was helpful with his neuro and detox symptoms, but much too expensive to continue longterm.
We do still order the oral phosphatidylcholine from time to time.
Sorry, but I do not believe those success rates. The medical advisor has been around in lyme circles for quite awhile. Have never read that he claimed such high success rates before.
Bea Seibert
Posts: 7306 | From Martinsville,VA,USA | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
If it looks to good to be true.............
My original post was edited to remove any name references...But, if you are interested,go to their website and Google some of the principals involved. I recalled one of the names as running a treatment center in Northwestern NJ that is now defunct.
It just seemed unusual to me that a center goes "belly-up"in NJ, and re-opens years later in Pennsylvania. NJ needs all the LLMD's it can get.
Keep in mind,I don't know how long they've been in business there,(Pa.), but I'm sure if their success rates were as high as they claim, just word of mouth would have been enough to have people waiting to "take a number" outside-they wouldn't need a PR firm to do it for them.
I have no doubt that some people have been helped, it's just the "quick cure" aspect of it raised my eyebrows. Do you ever recall hearing any cancer treatment centers claiming the same? And, out of curiosity,what happens to the other 12%?
All I meant was for anyone to do research, or get feedback from someone you know personally they have helped or an organization you can trust. Joe
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
I think you are threading on thin ice here. I have never seen this Dr. but I do know many who he helped and he was very accommodating to those who did not have funds.
He had some policies I did not agree with but he is a Lyme literate doctor. If he is trying to make a come back and if he resolved whatever he did I don't think he should be crucified on this forum.
We don't know, or do we, how things are going in his new practice but this post will be instrumental in getting him closed down. I also know he was very outspoken politically and put himself on the line coming to Lyme rallies and speaking for US.
May be before we go on a witch hunt we should all calm down and find out if he is getting results at his center.
I do know he is a LLMD and has helped many in the lyme community.
We have enough problems in the Lyme Community. Don't out one of our own unless we have all the facts.
[ 05-20-2009, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
abxnomore this clinic costs money and alot of it..there is a bad vibe already with what ive read and you cant say that you dont see it..I was supposed to go here years ago but the poor house is where I would end up so I dropped my appointment..my llmd is the best there is and if you are not getting cured then find another doctor and one who is NOT on the internet..
Posts: 593 | From long island ny | Registered: Apr 2006
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
First off, I am off of ABX and doing fine but I fully understand this illness having lived thru it for many years.
I'll admit the website promises a lot but I say call the facility and speak to others before we out him. One of them is an LLMD. I know him and I know people he has treated and helped enormously in the past but not at this facility.
If we know for sure that he is a scam that is one thing just like we do with our LLMD lists we cross some names off when we learn that they are not up to par.
But I think it's wrong to start a witch hunt based on flimsy evidence. All alternative facilities cost a fortune. They do all kinds of modalities that are expensive and not covered by insurance but they work when used by the right people. I have always used Integrative methods in my battle with this illness.
How were you supposed to go there years ago when it's my understanding that Dr. L just joined this place? He's the LLMD. As noted he had a different location previously.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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How could it not be a scam when they are advertising a CURE in 56 days? This is not honest. The doctor may be a great guy, as you say, he probably has helped many, he may even hug little kids and climb trees to rescue kitty cats. But there is no 56 day cure.
(If there is, everyone line up after me!)
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
jklynd, I agree with you. Certainly sounds too good to be true. We'll all have to do our home work and keep an open ear and make calls if we must.
It's obvious now why he reopened in PA. You found the reason why. And it's a relatively new practice. In my experience, he had a good practice in NJ, in fact, several locations. Dr. L is lyme literate.
I don't like that he is promising cures but I think teaming up with the guy who does the integrative stuff is a good idea, if he knows what he is doing.
I have found, personally, that it is the best way to approach this illness and in fact any illness.
Maybe we will hear some good things coming out of this place, I hope.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
nomoremuscles , We can call his office and ask him.
I agree the website reads like an infomercial. But they are claiming to be good at catching early cases so they will probably say that is how they do it, perhaps.
All I know is that Dr. L is lyme literate. I like the alternative modalities they use. Someone who is lyme savvy may well be able to make use of this place, plus they take insurance.
I do agree the website reads very badly and makes fantastic claims. I don't know anything about this new center.
Perhaps, we can be constructive in letting them know that we don't like what they are claiming and let them know that if, in fact, they are a
lyme literate office that their website is a real turnoff to anyone who is lyme savvy. That it reads like it's a scam business saying it can do the impossible.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Weird - I can literally walk to this place from my house!
Anyway, I have heard of it from when Dr P. K. worked there.
I do not know this new Dr L or anything about him.
I really doubt they could cure me in 50 whatever days - I would give them a run for there money!
-------------------- "We must be willing to get rid of the life we've planned, so as to have the life that is waiting for us" - e.m. forster Posts: 921 | From PA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Dr. L is an LLMD and has been around a long time.
I absolutely doubt the 56 day cure. Perhaps, we should contact his website and let him know that we find those claims to be impossible except in the
earliest of cases and if that is what they mean to say they should clarify their statements or else they will clearly be deemed misleading.
I plan on contacting his office thru their website.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
To those who say they are expensive, they DO accept some insurance. How many LLMD's accept insurance. Look at all the Lymies who are going bankrupt paying everything out of pocket. It certainly seems they would appeal to many of these folks.
My LLMD is reluctant to try IV abx, evn though I have late-stage neuro-Lyme. I will have to decide at the one-year point if I still want to continue with just orals.
Re what happens to the other 12%. Obviously they continue treatment longer. They do not seem to abandon patients. They claim 5% do not get better. That's the number my own LLMD quotes for his patients. I'm 10 1/2 mos. on orals, still have numbness, weakness, burning neuropathy in legs, loss of balance. And my vision is worse than ever.
Remember they still admit there is no one test that when negative guarantees that you are free of Lyme. Their testing protocol is obviously more complicated than what they were able to explain on their website. Also, cure for them means no more symptoms AND test confirmation. IDSA could care less about your symptoms after the three weeks on doxy, they just proclaim you cured even if you're screaming in agony. I just do not see this as WORSE than IDSA. What can be more evil than Satan????
AND, this place uses IGENEX lab.
-------------------- Sick since at least age 6, now 67. Decades of misdiagnosis. Numerous arthritic, neuro, psych, vision, cardiac symptoms. Been treating for 7 years, incl 8 mos on IV. Bart was missed so now treating that. Posts: 765 | From nw ct | Registered: Sep 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
As I said the website might sound fluky but he is an LLMD who knows what he is doing and has been around a long time. Cure? Well that is another matter.
Paul if you have an LLMD who won't use IV's that is a reason to look else where but surely you can find help closer than PA.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
PK was the PHD...the Dr B there did not prescribe abx at all for lyme when I went....he did not believe in it.
A few months ago I was looking for a supplement I took from them and their site is now all about lyme. The Dr B seems to have changed his protocol now...I would like to know what changed his beliefs.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Probably teaming up with Dr. L, an LLMD! My guess is that Dr.B does all the alternative modalities,
not Dr. L. Dr. L. never did them before. They offer a very good selection of integrative approaches, all cutting edge. I'm impressed.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Abxnomore....you wrote to Polar Blast.... "How were you supposed to go there years ago when it's my understanding that Dr. L just joined this place? He's the LLMD. As noted he had a different location previously."
I did a search on this clinic's name and found an old post by Polar Blast from 2007, where he/she mentioned planning to go to this clinic. Earlier today I sent a PM asking him(her) to come forward and comment on this clinic.
Posts: 349 | From usa | Registered: Oct 2007
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Well now we are talking about two clinics and we don't know which one he meant.
seibertneurolyme mentioned above who was in the existing clinic in PA. Dr. L was in NJ but from
what I recall he was never a high priced LLMD and took insurance so I don't know which one he was referring to.
In any event, if it was years ago or 2007 neither of them exist at this point.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
abxnomore you are correct in saying this is somewhat a new clinic under the same name since Dr PK has left. Yes, Dr L since I left there in 2008..he was not there when I was a patient. i did not have money at that time to try the IV alternative protocol. However the oral PC did help me.
We need some current patient reports, so we can better evaluate this clinic.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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losferwrds
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by jklynd:
It just seemed unusual to me that a center goes "belly-up"in NJ, and re-opens years later in Pennsylvania. NJ needs all the LLMD's it can get.
Dr Ls practice went belly up because the feds got him for tax evasion and he went to prison. Happens alot in cash businesses.
From what I gleaned from the site they have come up with something that makes the PCR testing more effective
They also say that follow ups are needed, which implies 56 days to a cure is prolly more accurately 56 days to your first remission
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posted
I went there for over a year and not cured or even better. it is very expensive. if you can afford it, it seems to be helpful for detoxing. i did not see miracles there and i saw alot of the same people often, some in wheelchairs.
Posts: 262 | From nj | Registered: Dec 2007
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
njgirl14,
When you went there was it with the old staff or with the new LLMD?
I would say the outcome may now be different with Dr. L, an LLMD on board. I hope we heard some good feed back in the months ahead.
Lyme needs a true integrative approach such as what they are offering.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
the last time i was there was his past fall (i think, maybe longer ago not sure?) anyway there was dr pk the phd and dr b. i do not know who dr l is you are referring to.
dr b's wife was the office mgr. has there been other staff changes?
Posts: 262 | From nj | Registered: Dec 2007
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
The center now has Dr. L an LLMD there. Let's all get that straight and stop comparing it to the old staff.
Let's hope with an LLMD there and an integrative doctor, as well, we will hear good things about this facility in the future.
For everyone, it's always best to read the whole thread, instead of just jumping in and reading the last few posts.
Dr. L is an LLMD and has been around a good long while. He has advocated for us vociferously.
Let's give him a chance. We should be happy about his new center that takes insurance, as well, until we hear otherwise.
I feel like a broken record.
Dr.PK the Phd is no longer with the center and it is newly re-structured with an LLMD, Dr. L. and Dr. B. an integrative doctor who was there in the past.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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losferwrds
Unregistered
posted
quote:Originally posted by njgirl14: the last time i was there was his past fall (i think, maybe longer ago not sure?) anyway there was dr pk the phd and dr b. i do not know who dr l is you are referring to.
dr b's wife was the office mgr. has there been other staff changes?
Did you go to Dr L in Marlton/Mt Laurel that closed when he went to jail for tax evasion or this guy in haverford,pa that now brought Dr L in as a consultant, being you are from Jersey I am just curious, the sales pitch is great, but the haverford place seems to treat IV only, like a chemo for cancer based on their ad, which I think is more effective than poly dosing orals but they onlyhave 5 or 6 1sentance testamonials, so its a nice pitch, just curious which one you went to.
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JRWagner
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3229
posted
WAIT....what's that sound??? QUACK QUACK QUACK... PAY ME QUACK QUACK QUACK...there, now I, er., you are cured.
There are many places like this...mostly run by charlatans that like to be in the limelight.
DON"T WASTE YOUR MONEY AND TIME
BTW...Paulie, this is no reflection of you!!! I know your area of the woods well...used to got to Limerock Park to see the races...and to race a bit as well. Beautiful, if dangerous (Ticks) country.
NEXT? Lyme Disease cured using the same protocols as used on the SPACE STATION!!!!
Peace, Love and Wellness, JRW
Posts: 1414 | From Ny, Ny | Registered: Oct 2002
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
He is not a quack. Go ahead a slander one of our own, a good LLMD who has helped many.
And I don't want to hear you FOOLS crying when there is no one to treat you when you will so viciously try to OUT one of our own.
This LLMD has spoken up in Washington for us, at Lyme rallies and protests and is there to help us.
You guys are fools and Quacks making assumptions based on nothing.
Way to go to bring the trolls out of the wood work.
I wonder who the real quacks are?????
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I know Dr L. He and I jointly called on our Representatives and Senators in Washington in the late '90's and in 2000 requesting they support programs to help the victims of Lyme and other TBD's.
He's a good man and a good doctor. Yes, he was charged and did his time on the tax issue and I'm sure, if asked, he would admit that was a big mistake. That did not and would not affect his medical license.
Now he's starting over and there's no reason to rip into him.
Take care,
-------------------- Lou B Posts: 2200 | From Mount Hope, New Jersey, USA | Registered: Oct 2000
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Thanks, Lou.
It is good to hear from someone who has worked with him with lyme advocacy.
posted
lou b, thx for stopping by with 1st hand experience you have with this llmd.
bury the hatchet and move on folks...
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Tincup
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 5829
posted
My goodness.
A Lot of "stuff" here and I'm not happy with those claims on the website, not at all.
`````````````````````````````````````````````````` EDIT- I also want to say MY opinions about the web site's claims have NO bearing on the doctors skills or intentions.
I object to what the website says and the way it is presented... NOT the doctor's skills or kindness or dedication... or treating methods.
I brought up the way this use to be done years ago... which was hard on patients who couldn't get a PCR positive... and who couldn't take Rocephin. It may be totally different now... so as I suggested, please call them if you are considering going. Just wanted to clear that up.
```````````````````````````````````````````````
1. If this is similar to the way this use to be done....
Patients had to have a series of PCR tests in order to get a positive one.... in order to prove they had Lyme before being treated. No positive, no treatment... like it states now.
I object!
PCR's are expensive. Lots of PCR's are VERY expensive.
PCR's pick up DNA of the bacteria, not necessarily just LIVE Lyme bacteria. Many patients who have Lyme do not have positive PCR's after many tests. This is a problem. This can an expensive problem.
2. The "cure" rate is about what the IDSA claims. I REALLY don't like that word "cure" being tossed around. I know better. And partly because....
3. In MY opinion there is no test that can prove the Lyme bacteria is absent from the body. I don't care how many tests you use or what special sequences or special stuff...
There are NO tests that can prove Lyme is totally absent from the body.
4. Years ago everyone was given Rocephin. No choice, that was what everyone got. You couldn't beg anything else... it was Rocephin or nothing.
I hope that would have changed, but I am questioning that due to the number of days they treat Lyme... and the fact they say IV's.
So before you make an appointment to go there, like I did at one time .... check on those facts first.
posted
Just in case anyone was confused, the above was a joke.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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cantgiveupyet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8165
posted
Abx lol....thanks I needed the laugh right about now.
The characters probably have something to do with the HTML code for the website.....my lymebrain guess anyway as no aliens have come for me yet ;-) but Im not too far from that clinic....so I will keep an eye on the sky
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
It's true, on the rare occasion I do make sense Heck, I even laughed.......thanks!
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Dr. L, in his pre-tax issues days, gave me my life back. I am not back to "normal", but am no longer almost 10 feet under.
-------------------- I found my original identity! It has been a bit over 12 years...can't blame me for forgetting my password, right?!!
Member red (Member # 1886) Registered: 26 November, 2001 70 posts Posts: 164 | From NJ | Registered: Jan 2009
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
pepperspeck,
Thanks for posting about Dr. L. I know many others who he did the same for and mostly from the heart. Also, he didn't only use rocephin.
He was an expert in using Vanco measuring the peaks and troughs with great diligence and not all doctors do that.
JRWagner, you have been on this site since 2002. How's your health progress coming along?
Why come on and write such a negative post about a LLMD you obviously know nothing about?
Everyone should question first before we accuse. A call to his office or making contact with others who were patients of his would have been
the smart way to handle this rather than bad mouth one of our own LLMD's. I find it very sad how quickly some were ready to condemn and label a good LLMD as a charlatan and a quack.
This LLMD is no QUACK, I assure you. He knows his stuff, is a caring doctor and with his new association I'm sure he is expanding his knowledge even more.
I hope this center proves to be a great place of medical innovation and that we hear good things about it.
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