This was just sent to me. I can't believe what I just read from Willys own mouth. This is definitely some sort of cover up.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
OMG. Scary. When did this interview actually take place? Was it in 2007 when the film was shot or recently? I wonder if that researcher they talk about saying security clearance is true?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Vermont_Lymie
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9780
posted
Wow!
Posts: 2557 | From home | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted
copying this here & breaking it up for neuros like me who can't read continuous text with no double spacing, etc....
june 9, 2009
On February 28, 2007, the UNDER OUR SKIN film crew interviewed Willy Burgdorfer, Ph.D., M.D., and Scientist Emeritus at the National Institutes of Health (NIH), for three hours at his home in Hamilton, Montana.
Dr. Burgdorfer is the discoverer and namesake of the spirochete (a type of bacterium) that causes Lyme disease, called Borrelia burgdorferi.
He has received numerous awards, including the Robert Koch Gold Medal, the IDSA Bristol Award, the Schaudinn-Hoffman Plaque, and the Walter Reed Medal.
He is a coeditor of the book, ``Aspects of Lyme Borreliosis,'' and has published over 220 research papers.
Just as we began filming, there was a pounding on the door, and we found ourselves facing someone who turned out to be a top researcher at the nearby Rocky Mountain Laboratories, a biolevel-4 NIH research facility.
Standing on the porch, our uninvited guest said, ``I've been told that I need to supervise this interview. This comes from the highest levels. There are things that Willy can't talk about.''
We were stunned. After all, Dr. Burgdorfer had been retired from the lab since 1986.
We were there to talk to a private citizen, about the history of a very public discovery that had put him on the short list for a Nobel Prize.
Earlier that year, the NIH had refused our requests to interview any of their Lyme researchers. What was going on?
Why would the NIH want to censor information about the fastest growing bug-borne disease in the United States?
Fortunately, our iron-willed film director, Andy Abrahams Wilson, turned the NIH handler away, and what followed was an amazingly candid interview about Lyme disease--its dangers and its controversies.
Here are highlights from this three-hour interview:
Andy Wilson: Could you describe the ``Aha!'' moment when you discovered the spirochete that causes Lyme disease?
Dr. Burgdorfer: I remember that time quite well.
Allen Steere called me in the summer of 1977 and said, ``Willy, I would like to discuss with you the methods you are using in dissecting ticks, and [looking] for microbial agents.''
I sat with him about two hours that summer and told him over the phone how to dissect ticks. Then about two months later he called again, and I repeated, again, the same thing.
And he finally said [in 1981], ``Well, I'm willing to send you some serum [samples]. I want you to examine them for me.''
But it was not an ``Aha'' [moment]. It was a ``What in the hell? What's in that smear?''
And then my work [on relapsing fever] as a Swiss student came back. [I said to myself], ``Willy, these are spirochetes!''
The slide showed long slender forms, a little bit curved, and they were only in the mid-part of the tick. Nowhere else. There were so many people who said, ``That is impossible Willie. You can't get spirochetes out of hard-bodied ticks.''
[But from my work on] relapsing fever ticks from Africa, I knew what a spirochete looked like.
The Belgian Congo and Kenya are hotspots for relapsing fever.
Even Livingston [the African explorer and Scottish missionary] was exposed, and he called it ``tick fever.''
Andy Wilson: And what did they call this spirochete?
Dr. Burgdorfer: I discovered the agent producing Lyme disease, so they called it Borrelia burgdorferi, after my name, Willy Burgdorfer.
The initial findings were published right away in Science magazine. And even today, [this discovery] is considered a breakthrough in spirochetal research.
There are many laboratories that are using our techniques, applying them to syphilis, because of similarities.
Andy Wilson: What are the similarities between Borrelia burgdorferi and syphilis?
Dr. Burgdorfer: The similarities that I know of are associated with the infection of the brain, the nervous system.
The syphilis spirochete, Treponema pallidum has an affinity for nerve tissues.
The Borrelia burgdorferi spirochete very likely has that too.
Children are especially sensitive to Borrelia burgdorferi.
The Lyme disease spirochete is far more virulent than syphilis. We don't know the end yet.
And [we] can't even make a [blood] smear with Borrelia burgdorferi and see the organism. It's there. But you don't see it. You cannot find this spirochete. Why not?
After all, I have a sick person here. He is trembling all over. His spinal fluid is full of spirochetes.
But when it comes to blood, it's not there. So there is something associated with this organism that makes it different.
Andy Wilson: Why is Borrelia burgdorferi so hard to find in the body and culture outside the body?
Dr. Burgdorfer: Borrelia burgdorferi in the tissues of a patient is extremely difficult to demonstrate, because, first of all, you don't like somebody to take samples out of your brain [to look] for spirochetes.
The same with other tissues. Every system in your body can be infected with spirochete. But to prove that is extremely difficult. It demands surgical work, which is very expensive
Andy Wilson: Are you a believer in the idea of persistent Lyme infections?
Dr. Burgdorfer: I am a believer in persistent infections because people suffering with Lyme disease, ten or fifteen or twenty years later, get sick [again].
Because it appears that this organism has the ability to be sequestered in tissues and [it] is possible that it could reappear, bringing back the clinical manifestations it caused in the first place.
These are controversial issues for microbiologists, as well as the physicians who are asked to treat patients.
Andy Wilson: How do you feel about the controversy in the Lyme world?
Dr. Burgdorfer: The controversy in Lyme disease research is a shameful affair. And I say that because the whole thing is politically tainted.
Money goes to people who have, for the past 30 years, produced the same thing--nothing.
Serology has to be started from scratch with people who don't know beforehand the results of their research.
There are lots of physicians around who wouldn't touch a Lyme disease patient. They tell the nurse, ``You tell the guy to get out of here. I don't want to see him.'' That is shameful.
So [this] shame includes physicians who don't even have the courage to tell a patient, ``You have Lyme disease and I don't know anything about it.''
Andy Wilson: What about the Lyme vaccine?
Dr. Burgdorfer: The [first generation] vaccine was not specific enough and not strong enough. So what is needed is additional work on a vaccine.
What we have right now is a good example of work that goes to industry [too soon], and industry says, ``Okay fine, get it out. `` And somebody says, well it's too early. And it's already on the market ... and you see that every day ...
You see that this company is falling down, and these guys are realizing that the vaccine work is full of holes and never should have come out.
A lot of people are going to pay for that. They're going to get sick with Lyme as a result of the vaccination. Then you're in trouble.
Andy Wilson: What do you think about the relationship between Lyme and neurodegenerative disease like Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease?
Dr. Burgdorfer: Right now they are building a research center at Columbia University, to study this possibility, because many physicians believe that neurologic manifestations, regardless [of] what type, are typical for Lyme disease.
Andy Wilson: What do you most regret about what has happened, in the aftermath of your discovery?
Dr. Burgdorfer: I most regret that the technology used to diagnose and to even treat Lyme disease wasn't worked all the way through.
It [was based on] only a few results, then published. And later on, people [wanted] to take them back. I think Borrelia burgdorferi is too serious an [infectious] agent to play with, and with many laboratories, the severity of the disease is overlooked.
Andy Wilson: What's the next stage of research?
Dr. Burgdorfer: Neurologic manifestations have to be the next stage of research.
Also [Borrelia burgdorferi's] antigenicity. Ecologically, the diversification of Borrelia is tremendous.
Because of the spirochete's ability to change--to change its physiology, to change its ``antigenic'' structure for instance--a spirochete may be capable of producing disease or not.
And one piece of work that needs to be done, that has lately been neglected, is development of the spirochete--whether it transfers [genes via] fission, or whether individual spirochetes have the ability to break into spheres or particles.
We don't know yet how they do it but they do. They go into the lymphocytes, they go into every tissue.
Just because we have not seen [them], does not mean that they are not there. Once the immune response is down, are [they] capable of re-entering the bloodstream and producing disease?
Andy Wilson: Do you have Lyme?
Dr. Burgdorfer: No. I don't. But I say that cautiously. Because I have been working with Lyme disease ever since 1981. _______
Soon after we turned-off the camera and began packing up our gear, Dr. Burgdorfer told us with a sly smile, ``I didn't tell you everything.''
Bookmark and Share 6 Comments so far
1. Luke June 9th, 2009 6:26 pm
Great reporting.
[Soon after we turned-off the camera and began packing up our gear, Dr. Burgdorfer told us with a sly smile, ``I didn't tell you everything.'']
... Oh you can't leave us hanging on that, whats the rest of the story?!? 2. Jerry Leonard June 9th, 2009 6:28 pm
``I didn't tell you everything.'' -Wow. Great interview. Did you happen to ask him if the non-treatment of Lyme (a syphilis-type organism) is the de facto continuation (on a national scale) of the CDC's infamous Tuskegee experiment (with untreated syphilis), which was exposed and discontinued at about the same time the Lyme epidemic took off and has been artificially perpetuated by CDC/EIS ``experts'' (e.g. through fraudulant treatment guidelines) ever since?
Jerry Leonard 3. Kathleen Liporace June 9th, 2009 6:47 pm
Wow, that last statement is haunting. I wonder what he did not tell...Further, would he be willing to tell all? Was his last declarative an invitation for further questions at a future time? 4. Colleen Collins June 9th, 2009 8:38 pm
Why didn't he tell you everything? We have the right to know the whole truth!
Mom of 5 kids who have been very sick from Lyme and other Tick-borne infections! 5. Kathleen M. Dickson June 9th, 2009 9:00 pm
THANK YOU WILLY!! 6. Lynn T. Shepler MD JD June 9th, 2009 9:11 pm
I did have a telephone conversation with Dr. Burgdorferi many years ago when he told me he was recruited from Austria to work in the U.S. biowarfare program.
When I asked him whether the organism in question - Borrelia burgdorferi- was an agent studied with respect to biowarfare, he said, ``No.''
Of course, I did not know if he was telling me the truth. He did talk about the interest of other intracellular agents that have been of interest in biowarfare, such as Q fever, for example -- but all of this has been written about.
Just go to your local public library, or Amazon.com and search ``biological warfare.'' You will be surprised by what you read.
Maybe they did not want Willy to spill the beans about his involvement in biowarfare research, but what is the surprise?
Well, politically, Nixon said he had closed down the U.S. biowarfare program. Maybe the U.S. never really complied with that and took all their stuff and put it under the aegis of the CIA.
Now they call it ``biodefense.''
But, one would suspect there is more - something more they have not told us about this organism and about Dr. Burgdorfer.
Leave a reply ************************************
thanks for posting this; very informative & leaves us all with detective work to do!
IP: Logged |
Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
Oh my goodness. Bless you Mr. Burgdorfer.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I think we should all go and protest by Marching in front of the White House !!
Oh Yeah, were Homebound !
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
This is amazing. Thank you for sharing it with us!
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I agree Lymetwister, but they'd shoot us down like rabid dogs.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Leelee
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19112
posted
OMG! What more could there possibly be and why did he not tell?
I am left with an eerie, chilly feeling.
-------------------- The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy. Martin Luther King,Jr Posts: 1573 | From Maryland | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Maybe he knows the cure and won't tell us?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
Tracy9
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7521
posted
I hope he has it written somewhere or recorded and in a safe deposit box with instructions to it or a treasure map or something.....he is getting up there in age!!!
13 years Lyme & Co.; Small Fiber Neuropathy; Myasthenia Gravis, Adrenal Insufficiency. On chemo for 2 1/2 years as experimental treatment for MG. Posts: 4480 | From Northeastern Connecticut | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted
i hope he doesn't go to the grave with it and NOT to be released upon his death!
someone mentioned a protest in front of the white house; yes, we're bedridden ...
good one, we could plant ourselves in front of our tvs with the white house in the background ... will this do with our signs held up proudly ?
IP: Logged |
ukcarry
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 18147
posted
Still,it is very important to have this in the public domain: has it been posted to Obama's Health area?
Posts: 1647 | From UK | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Do we live in China or America?
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I wouldn't be surprised if he'd be imprisoned/physically hurt if divulging the information. I'm sure he's threatened.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymielauren28
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13742
posted
Wow! Twister, let's take a road trip to Montana...
Lauren
-------------------- "The only way out is through" Posts: 1434 | From mississippi | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
I wanna go! I think He is a very honorable man and
we all know the questions but he does not have
those answers or I do believe he would tell us. But
I would like to take him to dinner.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
If he doesn't take you up on going to dinner I'll fill in for him.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
lymemomtooo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5396
posted
I think it would be unfair for us to individually contact him. IT would be overwhelming and he would shut down.
But I think Andrew should persue this when possible. lmt
Posts: 2360 | From SE PA | Registered: Mar 2004
| IP: Logged |
ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: I wouldn't be surprised if he'd be imprisoned/physically hurt if divulging the information. I'm sure he's threatened.
He no doubt had to sign a confidentiality agreement to work in the industry that he worked. Violation of this sort of C.A. could very easily mean prison... For starters.
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
Doesn't the 'Freedom of Information Act' kick in after a certain period of time? Or does that only apply to non-governmental cover-up information?
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
"I think it would be unfair for us to individually contact him. IT would be overwhelming and he would shut down."
100% in agreement. He has done and continues to do SO much for us... and contacting him at home, and even posting his private information here, IMO, is not fair to him or his family.
Andy would NOT have released that information, had he NO intentions of following up on it.
No one has the right to tell another what to do or not do, but please think this over carefully before acting on any impulses to contact him.
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I called him and he was very very nice on the phone. He answered many questions and he didn't shut down.
In fact, quite the opposite. He was full of information and invited me back to call him anytime with any more questions.
I recorded the conversation and he agreed to allow me to share it with everyone here. I'm converting it to mp3 format now and will upload it shortly as soon as I can find a free hosting site.
He answers the big question in the article presented at the beginning of this thread.
I again asked him towards the end if any more questions arose, could I call him back. He answered absolutely yes, or something to that notion.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
I'm so pleased that you got the answers you were looking for Lymetwister, and that you are willing to share them with us.
However... PLEASE, let us ALL not bombard him with more calls?
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I hope these are the answers WE are all looking for.
For the record, I would never suggest multiple people calling this retired man. I agree that this would be an invasion of his privacy and a big intrusion of his life.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
GO TWISTER! I can hardly wait to read your transcript!
ping "We are more than containers for Lyme"
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
Then would you mind removing his personal contact information above?
Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
bettyg
Unregistered
posted
twister, i agree with melanie; frankly, i'd like to see you DELETE your link; that's personal just like it would be for YOU/ME ... i'd RESENT the fact someone posted my personal info.
please delete it now before more readers see this...
just click on pencil, on the post where you show the link, and then delete that info.
thank you on behalf of everyone; WE ALL DESERVE OUR PRIVACY.
thanks for telling us what you did and he agreed to let you share your private phone call with us all!!! hugs
IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
Deleted :-)
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Melanie Reber
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 3707
posted
Thank you so very much! Posts: 7052 | From Colorado | Registered: Mar 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
No need for thanks, it's the right thing to do. In hindsight, I should have never posted it, but I was too chicken to call and just decided to go for it.
My ethics are where yours are.
Still working on the upload, it's an MP3 file and almost a 50 min. Conversation. He is a great guy and had much to say as you will hear.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Ocean
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3496
posted
LT...you seriously spoke with him and he talked with you??
OK...I know I am a blonde and can be gullible at times....but I will choose to believe this as no one has laughed yet....
I hope I'm not being the ditzy blonde, but I am very excited to listen to it.
posted
Fascinating read, thanks for the original thread starter link, lymetwister.
Posts: 135 | From Orlando, Florida | Registered: Feb 2009
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
I asked him in the beginning, which got cut off for some reason, but then I asked him again towards the end, just to reiterate that the conversation was a recording. He answered this was fine to share with others as you will hear.
My PC is so slow doing this conversion thing. It's only half way through, then I have to upload it. Hopefully, that part will go faster.
Sorry for the delay, I promise it's coming.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why am I worried that someone is about to bump lymetwister off before we hear this.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
Why do you say that John ? Have I done something wrong ?
If you guys don't want me to post this, than I won't.
I don't want to break any rules on here. Please tell me now before I do this.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
lymetwister,
I think we would all love to hear, as long as Dr. B. has agreed. That's the only part that was of concern.
John,
I just wanted to be sure that Dr. B. was aware. Sometimes, in our enthusiasm to share we might forget to get the proper approval. I used to work in journalism and if ever a private conversation was recorded or published without the person's knowledge, there were legal and ethical ramifications.
Not everyone is aware of some of the guidelines for private conversations. It's good to hear that Dr. B has given his approval, so that he knows his private conversation will be shared and how.
Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
WOW.
Someone who is honest.
That's a nice change.
Posts: 9481 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
| IP: Logged |
lymetwister
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19590
posted
Ok, now you've got me worried.
The last thing I need is to get bumped off of here. I was trying to do something good.
I'm not a lawyer, but from what I know, so long as you tell someone they are being recorded and they say it's ok and you tell them what you are going to do with it and they say it's ok, than there should be no problem.
Maybe I should give an overview in words of what he said.
I'm not looking for any kind of fame here or any spotlight on me.
Please tell me what to do folks. I don't want to lose my best support system.
John, you've got me worried now.
LT
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
It was in reference to the spooky NIH minder in the article.
If he said it's okay I'd post it. Once it's out you'd have less to worry about anyway if it were some government secret.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I doubt he said anything he wasn't supposed too. If he didn't do it in Under Our Skin he wouldn't tell some random caller.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
Lymetwister,
I see no problem. You have full consent from Dr. B. Please share. Thank you.
If you have any reservations, you can always send Dr. B a follow-up thank you note (or call) for his generosity and concern. Say that you finished making the MP3 and that you are just checking back with him to be sure that it's still okay to put a link on Lyme Net's bulletin board so that others can benefit from your conversation.
He will be grateful for the courtesy. And he'd probably also really like to have the link himself for his personal file.
posted
Though if I had the truth, if there is some conspiracy, I wouldn't mind getting bumped off to expose it. I wish I could, it would be worth it.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
-
John,
I think you would like a new book, (The?) Baker's Dozen. It's by an author who has written other lyme books.
I recall a post the other day where someone said this new book exposes a lot of (I'm at a loss for the right word) . . . stuff.
posted
Opportunities to do something so profoundly noble in life are few and far between.
Posts: 743 | From New York | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic