posted
Had it done on 2nd link. (saliva/urine for cortisol and neurotrasnmitters). I found it helpful in a way that it confirmed sever imbalances in the system, but I am not sure about how to treat it though
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djf2005
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Thanks colt.
The 1st link says they will recommend things to help, although I am sure that's in their best interest too so who knows.
I just need a better picture...
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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I tried something from a place called Neuroscience Labs. One holistic place did it, but unfortunately all others said this crap is BS and neuro transmitters CANNOT be detected via urine/blood. 95% of holistic docs say scam. I just saying what I hear.
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djf2005
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Seek-
The neurorelief link is neuroscience...
What do "they" say about saliva since that's what is used w/ urine?
So you did not find it to be helpful personally?
Which tests did you have run?
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: I tried something from a place called Neuroscience Labs. One holistic place did it, but unfortunately all others said this crap is BS and neuro transmitters CANNOT be detected via urine/blood. 95% of holistic docs say scam. I just saying what I hear.
I dunno quick cursory search on pubmed reveals that they indeed use urine to detect at least some neurotransmitters level:
There are many others papers out there in which they test various neurotransmitters in urine ( though papers are not about that part)
Do you have any link explaining why urine neurotransmitters are scam?
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Abxnomore
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I have been using neuro science lab for several years. When one has Lyme disease having your cortisol levels and neuro transmitters need to be frequently checked.
Of course other conditions may warrant this, as well. Depression, anxiety and a whole host of neuro disorders
They are a top notch lab. The director is one of the foremost authorities in the world regarding neuro transmitters.
Mainstream AMA doctors have no regard for this kind of testing and don't even know what to do with it, because they cannot write a script to resolve the problem. Or they write scripts and make the problems far worse.
If a doctor doesn't check, for example, your serotonin levels, how does he know what he is doing when he prescribes an SSRI? How does he know if your levels are too high or too low? He doesn't. The same applies to the other neuro transmitters that are tested and all play such a vital role in our well being.
Fine tuning neuro transmitters is a very delicate dance and it takes time and a good lab and practitioner who is "really" good. Neuro science is the "best" lab for this bar none.
Once the testing results are ready, the lab writes a protocol for you on how to correct the problems they find. I have had tremendous success with this lab but just like Lyme disease it is imperative that you stick with it, follow the protocol religiously, and do the follow up testing every three months.
Panel 9028 is the one that tests both adrenal/cortisol function and neuro transmitters. Their website, www.neurorelief.com has lots of good information on it and you can even email them and they will send you practitioners in your area that use their lab. ACAM and integrative doctors have been using this lab for many years.
Any doctor who says the lab or technique is hog wash is very uninformed and I would not even bother to see that doctor again.
This is cutting edge treatment, plain and simple. It works and it works way better than any SSRIs and all the meds that doctors like to dispense.
They have a line of very high quality targeted supplements that work, but it's a slow process and for many of us, like myself, who have had or had a bag case of lyme disease it may be an on going problem that may require monitoring for the rest of one's life.
However, if I take the supplements as suggested and test every three months, I find that the protocol they suggest and changes depending on the findings, really works for me.
I would highly recommend that any one here with Lyme disease look into what this lab does.
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djf2005
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Thanks abxnomore and colt, this is what i thought..
The only thing i am concerned with it the every 3 month testing, would medicare or ins pick it up?
thanks
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Abxnomore
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Neuro science uses a urine sample to test your neuro transmitter levels and four saliva samples, during the course of one day, to test your adrenal function and cortisol levels.
It's a do at home kit and it's covered by medicare.
There's no voodoo here folks.
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djf2005
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voodoo...
Yeah, I know this. Be nice.
Thanks for the info, so you feel strongly that neuroscience is more highly qualified than the other link I referred to initially? I have heard the same from others..
Ive had the adrenal lab run numerous times but not the neurotransmitters which is what I am most interested in at this point.
It is encouraging that you have found benefit from it, hopefully it will do the same for me.
I would much rather take target/patient specific supplements for longer periods of time then bang away w/ drugs w/ little direction.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Abxnomore
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Yes I do and it's the lab that the majority of ACAM doctors use and have used for a long while. I have had a lot of experience using them.
If you use them get the test kit 9028 and have both your adrenal and neuro transmitters tested. They will make a full recommendation on the findings. It's spelled out with the results. They have other test kits too that are even more extensive so you may what to check those out but do get both the adrenal and neuro transmitters done there together.
And if you are on medicare they accept it. But, I can't stress how important it is to stick with it and follow what they say.
I know I sound like a sales man. Trust me I have no vested interest in this company but have been so greatly helped by them. I know to many who give up after a short while and say it didn't work. It does, but one has to stick with it. There are no quick fixes with this kind of stuff but I'm sure you will see improvement.
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djf2005
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This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. You have been extremely helpful. I will update as the process progresses....
Thank you!
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Wow Abxnomore, thanks for the info. I was told these tests weren't even accepted by a local holistic doc who LOVES LOVES LOVES to do IV chelation. He's pretty open minded so him poo pooing it left an opinion. Also, my LLMD, who jumps on lots of bandwagons, doesn't endorse it either.
Others said how can you benchmark serotonin and norephrinene and other neuro transmitters. There are no normal ranges outside of doing brain biopsies.
I'll be frank. The whole alternative medicine world is crazy at times. One place does ART and swears by it. Another thinks every living being needs mercury chelation. Another goes for Neurolabs stuff. One believes in Lyme. The other has no idea what it is. And the beat goes on....
Patients lose faith sometimes. I did feel the office that used them was very cutting edge, BUT as always they didn't use NeuroScience Labs products as they wanted to push their private label stuff. It's ALWAYS all about the Benjamains.
Based on your feedbank ANM, I should take a second look! I had very low serotonin according to the lab. Psychiatrists said the tests are BS too. Uggh.... They'd have all the reason in the world to push this lab's findings to push more of their favorite candy. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Abxnomore
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I understand your frustration but I have been involved with alternative medicine for over 22 years, so I have learned a lot and some times the hard way.
Just as there is so much to learn about lyme disease and the various LLMD's and how they treat, the same holds true for alternative medicine. Not all of it is useful and not all alternative doctors are good.
It takes a lot research, some trial and error and eventually finding your footing and finding out what works for you.
If you have low serotonin levels, I would think increasing those levels would help you greatly. Seratonin converts to melatonin so I wonder if you have trouble sleeping?
It's done by using 5HTP, but pharmaceutical grade supplements can be as powerful as drugs and I never suggest that anyone take supplements without proper medical supervision. Many think of them as vitamins and harmless. Not so. One can do harm if they are taken without the guidance of a knowledgeable medical professional, and many work synergistically with other supplements. One has to know which ones do that.
But our neuro transmitters don't work in isolation and others convert to other things, so it's a very delicate balance to get it right.
Sometimes you just have to try things to find out and thru all the years I have tried a lot of things. Mainstream medicine says you can't test neuro transmitter levels. Well neuro science is doing it, and as I have said with repeated testing and supplementation I have seen changes in my levels and how I feel. So, to me it is working and I have little regard for those mainstream drug pushers, half of whom can't even diagnose a condition properly.
If they can't write a script to fix it, they are stumped. It's an entirely different way of practicing medicine.
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djf2005
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Hey friends-
I just had my phone consult and will be getting my kit in a few days.
The company I went with is Integrative Psychiatry because of my Dr's lack of co-operation in getting signed up w/ NS.
They seemed knowledgeable and nice on the phone, I spoke w/ Valerie who helped me decide which test/s would be the most beneficial.
I will have the results in 2-3 weeks due to the holiday delay and they will then make natural supplement recommendation according to what the tests show.
I also told her I was in the process of getting my amalgams out and was told that is key as well.
The consult was 85$, and the rest is covered by medicare or insurance.
This company seems a lot like NS and I hope the results are just as good. I know NS is more reputable but it's the best I could do.
Seems like a win/win. I will post back when I have some results and a plan of action down.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Why wouldn't your doctor help you DJF? I thought your physician was open to pretty much anything! I actually posed this question about Neuroscience to an integrative med doctor I've recently started seeing.
She is very,very open to all ideas and extremely knowledgeable on many fronts, including even rife, detox, ART, etc. She had nothing good to say about Neuroscience Labs. In fact, here is the quote:
"Here is the answer to your results from Neuroscience Testing.
Before I learned the truth about this type of testing, I had sent a few patients urine to NS. If what they suggested initially worked, that was useful. However, repeat testing did not help at all.
That means the initial testing results and suggestions are no better than chance and they results do not tell you what they are lead you to believe. They do measure what they say they are measuring, but their interpretation is out to lunch."
I guess this really made me feel bad I spent any money there. I guess everyone has their own experiences.
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djf2005
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Is there anything you comment on that isn't done in such a doom and gloom way? lol
His practice is so busy. It wasnt him, it's his office staff. He actually said he would love to sign up w/ NS but it didnt happen, so I went with IP.
Sounds like you had a bad experience tainted by a Dr. who doesn't like NS. I don't know why.
They just recently spoke at the lyme-autism conference and are widely accredited as a very good lab and good at what they do.
What you say doesn't make sense, nor is there an explanation for it.
You said- "If what they suggested initially worked, that was useful. However, repeat testing did not help at all"
I don't know what that means. So in your Drs opinion the initial test was helpful but not the follow ups?
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to allude to, if you think it doesn't work or you think you were taken advantage of, what have you.
Did you follow the recommendations that were laid out for you in an attempt to correct what was found to be off?
I would like this thread to remain as positive as possible and I am optimistic about this testing, as it has helped many people.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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I'll work on my positivity Derek. Sorry. I hope the treatment and testing works great for you.
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springshowers
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Derek. Did your doctor then have to make the referral or order in order for Medicare to Pay??
Thats what I gather from your post and why you had to switch to another company?
Did your doctor say they were ok with that choice and not the other?
Just a bit confused.. WOuld you mind clarifying? THanks
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djf2005
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Seek, no sweat. I just tire of LN somedays. I'm gonna pull a massman one of these days, I swear
Anyway, not that your Dr probably doesn't have legit reasons as to why she is unhappy w/ NS, just that I am not yet unhappy and don't even want those "it's not going to work negative thoughts" creeping into my head... you understand. Thanks for being cool.
Spring- My Dr. did not have to make the referral for IP (the company I used). A referral is needed if one uses NS (a different company). They both test and treat similarly, just different companies. NS being the more well known of the two I am sure.
I switched from NS to IP because my doctor was not yet a member of NS and as such being his patient I was not eligible for testing through NS until he became one.
My Dr originally has said he would sign up for NS but has been so busy (as usual) that his staff never got around to it, so this left me with only IP as my option.
It's not that my Dr or me or scoobie doo cares which company it is, it just happened this way. IP makes it easy also because I don't need a referral and the testing is covered so even if the whole thing is a bomb, which it won't be, I get new adrenal testing and new neurotransmitter testing which will be exciting to see where exactly everything is at.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Love it Derek. I looked at that website. Perfect idea to cut the middleman out. If they have an in-staff doctor signing off on lab test, I imagine insurance will reimburse if it's an eligible test. What a great way to avoid massive LLMD and other doc fees when begging for tests. Brilliant logic.
Most of the people on this forum are as amart as 95% of the docs anyway collectively. There's nothing people don't know here really.
Perhaps, tbis is the article or experience my practicioner had:
We all know everyone reacts differently to protocols.
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djf2005
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Yeah, we will see if the results are brilliant.
I hope it helps in some way.
The adrenal testing is included anyway so I will get a new reading on them at the very least and see what they have to say about the rest.
I didn't read the article yet and don't plan on it until I go through the process. I believe HOW we perceive something will affect us largely CAN and does affect the outcome of therapies. Not that it's not a valid point, I would'nt know, but again, I am keeping an open mind and a positive outlook on this one, for now.
I'll post more info for those interested once I have it.
If this all proves to have been a waste, you all know me, I tell it like it is. lol
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
sixgoofykids
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Huh, I just saw this post for the first time.
My LLMD didn't want to treat me for thyroid alone, so I had to find a local doctor. He's an alternative MD.
Anyway, in the questionnaire, I put that I didn't sleep as soundly as I'd like. I sleep through the night, but wake up easily, so have to have it absolutely quiet. (I wear ear plugs).
On this system, you start at level one, a week later go to level 2. It's only if you still have symptoms that you get tested and go to level 3.
I did fine on level one. I jumped into level 2 at the full dose and had that "rare" reaction .... I felt like I had been doing drugs, kind of like prescription painkillers make your brain feel.
They say this happens if you're severely depleted, so I stopped level 2 and am now ramping up.
I'm glad I found this because I'm really working on building back my body so that I don't come out of remission. Interesting science, can't believe I had never heard of it before.
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springshowers
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Thanks Derek.. Got it. now. .. Makes sense..
I want to look more into this too and good to know those logistics ..
Hope it works out to be something that helps a lot..
Let us all know... for sure as you go through the process...
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djf2005
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Will do spring.
Thanks for the link six.
There's some good info on that site, and I understand better and will more when I read the inter-relation between 5htp and all the other amino acids needed to rebalance dopamine and seratonin properly.
right now I am just using 5htp at bt but from the looks of it unless its properly off set w/ its counterpart it will eventually deplete me of dopamine even though it may be producing more seratonin....
I hope IP knows enough to do this work for me and can make good suggestions once my results are in.
Thanks again for the link, this info will be helpful as I go through the testing and process of.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
sixgoofykids
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Cool, Derek. He never talked about that with me, but I was so responsive to everything he threw at me, he probably thought I didn't need it.
I do think you need the 5HTP in balance with the others. I'm sleeping sooo good now, it's great. That was really my last lingering symptom .... I just thought it was because of age ....
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djf2005
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Seek-
You might be right as far as accuracy of results.
I am getting mixed reports but it seems that for certains amino acids blood levels are more reliable.
I am going to call tomorrow and see if this test is also one of the ones that can be covered by ins/medicare. It doesn't look like it since it's sent to VD lab but maybe it is.
I'll let you know what I find out. If it is covered, I will try to switch it for what we have already ordered. If it can't be switched, I will move forward w/ the original plan and hope for good results.
Thanks again.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
djf2005
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Might want to give this a read also.
It basically says urinary samples have their place and can aid in dx and tx of transmitters whereas w/o them there is no dx tool.(unless revert to blood platelet)
seekhelp
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Sure Derek. I'm not trying to be negative. I just want to help. I'm no expert, but the article I forwarded is quite informative. if you're going to do something, I guess do it right.
I'll read what you posted too. Thanks. Please let me know how it all works out because I have a genuine interest in all this. I think experimenting with GABA and / or 5-HTP may be worth a shot for myself. L-Theanine does help a tiny bit with anxiety at times, but not enough.
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sixgoofykids
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Seek, check out the website I posted. It's important to take them in balance.
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djf2005
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Np, Seek, I understand you aren't.
I read the article you posted, seems it works for some via urinary samples, and for others it does not. Id say the blood testing is the most reliable according to the article, but I am no expert.
Also, the site six posted has a lot of good info that explains how all the Amino Acids people use in attempt to alleviate depression/anxiety symptoms must be used in conjunction w/ certain ones. I don't fully understand it yet but I am going to re-read it.
Basically from what I gather if you use one or two serotonin precursors too much by themselves they will eventually deplete you of dopamine thus rendering it only as temporary relief.
Anyway, I called IP a minute ago about the blood platelet test that is avilable and no, insurance/medicare does not cover it, and they don't seem to think it's more accurate. (because it's not or because it's an out of house test?)
This information was relayed by the front desk so I am going to get an email out to the NP who selects the testing and ask what their stance officially is on the difference.
So I will be keeping the urine/saliva test for now and hoping for the best.
IP told me that the saliva is actually a better way to get an accurate reading than blood often because of the many variables that a blood draw has that can alter the results as well.
I am no expert, and the jury is out, but I have no choice but to move forward w/ what I have already selected.
I cannot tell if the article seek posted is biased in some way and if the article posted on IP's website is as well.
We will see. I will continue to post updates as I go through the process.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Hello West Chester! Before being diagnosed, a Kinesiologist had me take several sets of tests. One was for my neurotransmitters and it was through NeuroScience.
I have no basis to support the validity of these tests or the integrity of the lab - only my experience.
When the doctor went over the results with me, some neurotransmitters were double what they should be and some were half of the optimal range. Bottom line he said I was in a constant state of exhaustion and startlement, which was spot on.
He had me take some replacement supplements for a few months but there was no improvement.
For me, it was another piece to the puzzle and helped explain some of the symptoms I have. Maybe it could be used as a benchmark later?
Let us know how your results turn out.
-------------------- ---------- Danni Posts: 311 | From Glen Mills, PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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seekhelp
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Derek, I'm more inclined to think IP has that article WRITTEN by NeuroScience Labs on their page to support product sales. At least the Townsend Letter article (which I don't really give much credibility to that publisher) is an independent one with no apparent links to sales.
Of course IP will push products/tests insurance pays KNOWING odds are they will get patients to have them done. Oh, and it's an $85 consult fee too for them. No insurance paying = most times no test ordering = no consult fee from patients, right? Yes, we all have paid out-of-pocket for stuff out of desperation, but as a general rule this logic holds.
My take on the NS article was most testing was on rats, no proof of results. What none of the articles provided was how a lab comes up with genuine ranges of neurotransmitters for a so called 'normal/healthy' person. Important, right?
I guess I have a huge skepticism towards many specialty labs, their financial arrangements with integrative doctors, and general approach. Not all labs can be mainstream, but I constantly see this incentive circle where the doctor or lab produces a result off a test which in turn leads to guess what..product sales, which then leads to necessary consults later fot f/u, and more product sales, and the circle of profit lingers. I get scared to be in that trap.
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djf2005
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Danni-
Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you recall or would you mind sharing which transmitters were found to be double, and/or half what they should have been and what was used to try to correct them? Do you recall supplement names, ingredients in them, dosages, and duration of treatment you tried?
I know this is a lot to ask, but it could be very helpful as it may shed some light for me and others as to what has been tried; what works, and what doesn't. I know it's not a one size fits all and your experience was a singular one but more specific information may be helpful.
I will definitley keep you updated though on what my testing reflects as well as what I choose to do to attempt to correct it.
Seek, I acknowledge your points and agree that some of them may be valid.
I understand and sometimes feel your frustration about the cycle of private labs, practitioners, and their use of results to cyclically push expensive supplements.
Like I said on a different thread, I think this type of testing is not yet widely accepted, proven, or accredited so we are broaching waters that are not yet fully explored. This, IMO, is what being proactive is all about.
But, on the other hand, what is the alternative?
I think as patients, (me, you, etc) all we can do is make the most well informed decisions we can on how to best rectify our current situations.
If you think about it, these companies would not be doing ANY saliva or blood testing for that matter if it did not have some positive effect sometimes, so I don't believe that it can be written off as a total bomb (not that anyone is implying so)
Yes IP has a 85$ consult fee, but since they make sure INS/medicare covers it it's really a small price to pay for what may be revealed. At the very least, as I have said, I am getting new adrenal testing which in it of itself would cost more than 85$ (for me at least)
There is no "wrong" move here in my opinion. No one is going to force me to buy anything once the results are in, and if I decide to try some of the recommendations, who knows, maybe it will help.
We have that link to the site six referenced so as patients can be informed as to how all the amino acids function in harmony before getting this type of testing or considering it.
So I'll be educated by the time the results are in, be able to sniff a rat, or be helped.
I hope it proves to helpful, if only in some small way.
And again, for 85$, it's a lot of information that could "potentially" lead to some relief.
IMO, that's worth the skepticism and possible fallout of another wasted test.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
djf2005
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Your concerns should be considered first if the issues/symptoms you speak of are factors in a given person's make-up.
I have no disagreement w/ what you say massman, given the patient has digestion issues.
I personally do not.
I appreciate your questions, but I feel as if you know the answers to your own questions and are only asking them rhetorically, for whatever reason.
If you do know of certain foods which aid in NT function, then by all means, I would like to hear.
Stating that poor digestion can affect NT function is fine, but again, that's assuming I/you/whoever has that as an underlying issue.
Can NT function be out of wack even w/ proper digestion and a healthy balanced diet due to stealth pathogens causing neurological impairment and other associated symptoms?
Yes.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
I am no longer treating Lyme but a few years ago I did have my cortisol and neurotransmitters tested through NS and for me the test seemed extremely accurate.
My saliva cortisol was flatlined which totally explained my exhaustion and most of the urine neurotransmitters were very depressed. I can give you a couple examples and then what I took.
Cortisol 7am 2.6 (7.0-10) noon 1.2 (3.0-6.0) 4pm 1.4 (2.0-4.0) night was normal
DHEA 152.0 (300-500)
My doctor put me on Adrecor capsules 6 daily and DHEA 25mg (I think)
Now my new doctor does not believe in this test at all. She said the blood cortisol 8am is accurate. I don't know but at the time the NS test seemed right on.
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djf2005
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Thanks Kim for sharing that, it was helpful.
Your new Dr believes that your blood reading for cortisol is accurate? I was under the impression cortisol could only be accurately measured through a saliva test 4x day as listed in your notes above?
Glad you are not having to treat for lyme at this point, that's great news. Thanks again for sharing.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
A questionairre is more sensitive/specific than a urinary neurotransmitter test. However, Vitamin Diagnostics offers a platelet test for $595. Expensive, yes, but it looks like it may be the real deal.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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posted
Yes, she believes the cortisol blood test is accurate. I guess I will find out in the coming months as she is tapering me off cortef.
I am going to have an MRI of my brain to see if there is something wrong with the hypothalmus (sp) and then probably a cortisol stim test.
She now believes my adrenals have been supressed from the cortef and that is the cause of my fatigue now.
They think? the infection is gone but I am still having major fatigue problems.
But like I said it seemed as though the test was right on at the time and it gave me some proof that indeed something was very wrong with me.
As far as the cortisol test goes I don't know which is more accurate. I would honestly like to have the saliva done again now since my blood level was 23 at 8am (5-24) normal and I am still fighting fatigue constantly. Good Luck....
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Massman, my doctor's hand out on the NT's explains that there was something - stress, illness, etc. - that depleted the NT's. That normally the NT's would be derived from food, but in a depleted state supplementation is needed to make up for the deficiency. He considers it to be a temporary measure until the NT's are repleted.
One of the symptoms is poor digestion, which is supposed to improve on the program, thus increasing the body's ability to absorb them in a normal way from food.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Kday-
If you cold point me to some data that would support a questionaire being more reliable and accurate than measuring actual brain chemical levels through urinary testing I would appreciate it.
I do agree the blood test may be more reliable, I am in the process of getting a response from IP on what they believe the difference is.
Kim-
Glad they think the infection is gone. Hope you find the reason for your fatigue soon, could be persisting infection, could be a host of things.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
You know, we could all made decisions by symptoms alone until the ends of the Earth. Lyme = clinical Dx; every co-infection = clinical Dx; Thyroid = clinical Dx; anxiety/depression = clinical Dx. Really, when would it ever end? What proof would these alternative docs ever need to justify their supplement sales? Think about this carefully. I think it's territory for abuse at some point.
DJF, all of KDay's comments are basically from the Internet link I originally posted including the quesionnaire being most useful. Also, be sure IP addresses specifically the platelet testing and doesn't try to spin a story about serum testing unreliability. It may be tough to admit a product/test is better at times.
What on Earth happened to Abxnomore? I thought this poster would be jumping in with comments like crazy on this thread as they have lots of knowledge. I hope to hear from them.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Who is making decisions based on symptoms alone?
You? I am not. A lot of us are forced to but isn't that the point of reaching out with testing like this in the first place? It's a step.
LOOK, I am not saying this is a magical test, that it's going to cure anyone's problems, or even that it's going to help me (and I said this in my aforementioned posts).
I am simply hoping it will provide some benefit.
You keep referring me to one article for your points and I could keep doing the same to justify this type of testing.
I don't see where the abuse is. If a patient does not allow a Dr's influence of pushing of a certain idea or product to influence him/her than there is no possibility abuse will take place. We have the freedom to protect ourselves from abuse, whatever it's form, and to do so freely.
Think about what? I don't get what you are saying, again. Your viewpoint on so many things seems to come from someone who is bitter at being taken down so many roads to no avail. I can understand this, but why does that then turn into being extremely skeptical about everything? Your skepticism then turns to negativity (outwardly) and it's just one snowball effect that is really draining.
I am really starting to question why I even bother to post all of the different things I am currently trying. I had hopes it would expand people's horizons but that does not seem to be the case.
Just because I am posting an effort I am making does not mean that everything I attempt to do is right or will be helpful. It is an attempt, some things work, and some things do not.
Seek, this testing you are not fond of, your Dr is not fond of, so is it possible you could be a bit bias?
And furthermore, if this testing is even flawed 100%, at least I tried it and then will move on.
It is not tough to admit there could possibly be a better test, I don't know how many times in this thread I have acknowledged that the blood serum test from VD is probably better but that since the testing I am already committed to is virtually free I have chosen to move forward with it.
I don't know what happened to ABXnomore but I wish she would chime in too, because I am just about spent with LN in general.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seek - why so much concern that most practitioners are moneysuckers ? Especially those that sell supplements ?
One of the most truly appalling things to me is BigPharma and its patentable drugs that give each company a very large $$$ advantage. Then lets talk their profit margins, hiding of evidence in studies and encouragement of dismissing and attempt to control supplements.
IME most practitioners do not thoroughly study supplements, their makeup and what they do. Our culture focuses on feeling better and that is about it. And many (here and in practitioners offices) use supplements like most MDs use drugs.
I have said repeatedly (and practiced) that what makes the most sense is to use supplements and recommend treatments that encourage bodies and their owners to HEAL so that ongoing use of supplements are not needed.
I have also + often highly recommended 2 books to read to further understand what is going on:
"The Real Truth About Vitamins and Antioxidants" by Judith DeCava RN and "New Dimensions in Herbal Healing" by Jack Tips ND PhD.
I have not heard of anyone on this site reading these. The money you could save with the knowledge is much hgher than the cost of these books.
Why classify all practitioners that sell supplements as the same until you really know what they are doing and why they are doing it ?
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
I guess I just get so frustrated going into offices and incurring charges of $500-$700 for one visit out-of-pocket. It makes my stomach sink when I consider how much good that same money could do my family or others and it's on a bottle of pills.
Massman, I'm truly not saying alternative practicioners or conventional MDs don't genuinely believe what they Rx is going to help a patient. I've just had some alternative docs look surprised when I had sticker shock from a $500+ bill month and month. I often feel like the mentality at these docs, including LLMDs is these poor people will pay anything for hope and shouldn't bat an eye at these high costs. I don't even get the vibe of true compassion 99% of the time.
DJF, I do appreciate all your posts, thoughts, ideas, and recommendations. You've given me a lot of ideas since I've been here. Please don't take my viewpoint as bad. My opinion on this type of testing isn't formed yet. I profess to be no expert. I just read what I can and hope some of it's legit.
My nature is to think to myself why would someone or some company write something and do they have something to gain by promotion? I am a checks and balances kind of person. I prefer to keep the diagnoser away from the product or the test facility away from the docs and have them all perform independently, but this is far from reality in the U.S..
Sadly, if all of us took every consideration posted on Lymenet at face value, we'd be broke so fast unless independently wealthy. We all have to make our best guesses through this corn maze.
Don't think I'm not open to ideas or alternative treatments because I'm on them.
Going back to your comment Massman, how many integrative doctors would have no problems whatsoever if the patient said I'll buy all my product elsewhere and you just do the diagnosing? You've got the experience. Would this fly? One stop shopping certainly has its advantages,but I truly believe the medical field would progress leaps and bounds if these ties were pulled.
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
I buy all of my stuff from alternative sources. Not a single thing comes from any of my practitioners.
I am short on time and energy, I will try to respond to the rest of what you said when I can.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
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