posted
Had it done on 2nd link. (saliva/urine for cortisol and neurotrasnmitters). I found it helpful in a way that it confirmed sever imbalances in the system, but I am not sure about how to treat it though
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djf2005
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Thanks colt.
The 1st link says they will recommend things to help, although I am sure that's in their best interest too so who knows.
I just need a better picture...
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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I tried something from a place called Neuroscience Labs. One holistic place did it, but unfortunately all others said this crap is BS and neuro transmitters CANNOT be detected via urine/blood. 95% of holistic docs say scam. I just saying what I hear.
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djf2005
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Seek-
The neurorelief link is neuroscience...
What do "they" say about saliva since that's what is used w/ urine?
So you did not find it to be helpful personally?
Which tests did you have run?
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: I tried something from a place called Neuroscience Labs. One holistic place did it, but unfortunately all others said this crap is BS and neuro transmitters CANNOT be detected via urine/blood. 95% of holistic docs say scam. I just saying what I hear.
I dunno quick cursory search on pubmed reveals that they indeed use urine to detect at least some neurotransmitters level:
There are many others papers out there in which they test various neurotransmitters in urine ( though papers are not about that part)
Do you have any link explaining why urine neurotransmitters are scam?
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Abxnomore
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I have been using neuro science lab for several years. When one has Lyme disease having your cortisol levels and neuro transmitters need to be frequently checked.
Of course other conditions may warrant this, as well. Depression, anxiety and a whole host of neuro disorders
They are a top notch lab. The director is one of the foremost authorities in the world regarding neuro transmitters.
Mainstream AMA doctors have no regard for this kind of testing and don't even know what to do with it, because they cannot write a script to resolve the problem. Or they write scripts and make the problems far worse.
If a doctor doesn't check, for example, your serotonin levels, how does he know what he is doing when he prescribes an SSRI? How does he know if your levels are too high or too low? He doesn't. The same applies to the other neuro transmitters that are tested and all play such a vital role in our well being.
Fine tuning neuro transmitters is a very delicate dance and it takes time and a good lab and practitioner who is "really" good. Neuro science is the "best" lab for this bar none.
Once the testing results are ready, the lab writes a protocol for you on how to correct the problems they find. I have had tremendous success with this lab but just like Lyme disease it is imperative that you stick with it, follow the protocol religiously, and do the follow up testing every three months.
Panel 9028 is the one that tests both adrenal/cortisol function and neuro transmitters. Their website, www.neurorelief.com has lots of good information on it and you can even email them and they will send you practitioners in your area that use their lab. ACAM and integrative doctors have been using this lab for many years.
Any doctor who says the lab or technique is hog wash is very uninformed and I would not even bother to see that doctor again.
This is cutting edge treatment, plain and simple. It works and it works way better than any SSRIs and all the meds that doctors like to dispense.
They have a line of very high quality targeted supplements that work, but it's a slow process and for many of us, like myself, who have had or had a bag case of lyme disease it may be an on going problem that may require monitoring for the rest of one's life.
However, if I take the supplements as suggested and test every three months, I find that the protocol they suggest and changes depending on the findings, really works for me.
I would highly recommend that any one here with Lyme disease look into what this lab does.
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djf2005
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Thanks abxnomore and colt, this is what i thought..
The only thing i am concerned with it the every 3 month testing, would medicare or ins pick it up?
thanks
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Abxnomore
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Neuro science uses a urine sample to test your neuro transmitter levels and four saliva samples, during the course of one day, to test your adrenal function and cortisol levels.
It's a do at home kit and it's covered by medicare.
There's no voodoo here folks.
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djf2005
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voodoo...
Yeah, I know this. Be nice.
Thanks for the info, so you feel strongly that neuroscience is more highly qualified than the other link I referred to initially? I have heard the same from others..
Ive had the adrenal lab run numerous times but not the neurotransmitters which is what I am most interested in at this point.
It is encouraging that you have found benefit from it, hopefully it will do the same for me.
I would much rather take target/patient specific supplements for longer periods of time then bang away w/ drugs w/ little direction.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Abxnomore
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Yes I do and it's the lab that the majority of ACAM doctors use and have used for a long while. I have had a lot of experience using them.
If you use them get the test kit 9028 and have both your adrenal and neuro transmitters tested. They will make a full recommendation on the findings. It's spelled out with the results. They have other test kits too that are even more extensive so you may what to check those out but do get both the adrenal and neuro transmitters done there together.
And if you are on medicare they accept it. But, I can't stress how important it is to stick with it and follow what they say.
I know I sound like a sales man. Trust me I have no vested interest in this company but have been so greatly helped by them. I know to many who give up after a short while and say it didn't work. It does, but one has to stick with it. There are no quick fixes with this kind of stuff but I'm sure you will see improvement.
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djf2005
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This is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for. You have been extremely helpful. I will update as the process progresses....
Thank you!
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Wow Abxnomore, thanks for the info. I was told these tests weren't even accepted by a local holistic doc who LOVES LOVES LOVES to do IV chelation. He's pretty open minded so him poo pooing it left an opinion. Also, my LLMD, who jumps on lots of bandwagons, doesn't endorse it either.
Others said how can you benchmark serotonin and norephrinene and other neuro transmitters. There are no normal ranges outside of doing brain biopsies.
I'll be frank. The whole alternative medicine world is crazy at times. One place does ART and swears by it. Another thinks every living being needs mercury chelation. Another goes for Neurolabs stuff. One believes in Lyme. The other has no idea what it is. And the beat goes on....
Patients lose faith sometimes. I did feel the office that used them was very cutting edge, BUT as always they didn't use NeuroScience Labs products as they wanted to push their private label stuff. It's ALWAYS all about the Benjamains.
Based on your feedbank ANM, I should take a second look! I had very low serotonin according to the lab. Psychiatrists said the tests are BS too. Uggh.... They'd have all the reason in the world to push this lab's findings to push more of their favorite candy. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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Abxnomore
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I understand your frustration but I have been involved with alternative medicine for over 22 years, so I have learned a lot and some times the hard way.
Just as there is so much to learn about lyme disease and the various LLMD's and how they treat, the same holds true for alternative medicine. Not all of it is useful and not all alternative doctors are good.
It takes a lot research, some trial and error and eventually finding your footing and finding out what works for you.
If you have low serotonin levels, I would think increasing those levels would help you greatly. Seratonin converts to melatonin so I wonder if you have trouble sleeping?
It's done by using 5HTP, but pharmaceutical grade supplements can be as powerful as drugs and I never suggest that anyone take supplements without proper medical supervision. Many think of them as vitamins and harmless. Not so. One can do harm if they are taken without the guidance of a knowledgeable medical professional, and many work synergistically with other supplements. One has to know which ones do that.
But our neuro transmitters don't work in isolation and others convert to other things, so it's a very delicate balance to get it right.
Sometimes you just have to try things to find out and thru all the years I have tried a lot of things. Mainstream medicine says you can't test neuro transmitter levels. Well neuro science is doing it, and as I have said with repeated testing and supplementation I have seen changes in my levels and how I feel. So, to me it is working and I have little regard for those mainstream drug pushers, half of whom can't even diagnose a condition properly.
If they can't write a script to fix it, they are stumped. It's an entirely different way of practicing medicine.
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djf2005
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Hey friends-
I just had my phone consult and will be getting my kit in a few days.
The company I went with is Integrative Psychiatry because of my Dr's lack of co-operation in getting signed up w/ NS.
They seemed knowledgeable and nice on the phone, I spoke w/ Valerie who helped me decide which test/s would be the most beneficial.
I will have the results in 2-3 weeks due to the holiday delay and they will then make natural supplement recommendation according to what the tests show.
I also told her I was in the process of getting my amalgams out and was told that is key as well.
The consult was 85$, and the rest is covered by medicare or insurance.
This company seems a lot like NS and I hope the results are just as good. I know NS is more reputable but it's the best I could do.
Seems like a win/win. I will post back when I have some results and a plan of action down.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Why wouldn't your doctor help you DJF? I thought your physician was open to pretty much anything! I actually posed this question about Neuroscience to an integrative med doctor I've recently started seeing.
She is very,very open to all ideas and extremely knowledgeable on many fronts, including even rife, detox, ART, etc. She had nothing good to say about Neuroscience Labs. In fact, here is the quote:
"Here is the answer to your results from Neuroscience Testing.
Before I learned the truth about this type of testing, I had sent a few patients urine to NS. If what they suggested initially worked, that was useful. However, repeat testing did not help at all.
That means the initial testing results and suggestions are no better than chance and they results do not tell you what they are lead you to believe. They do measure what they say they are measuring, but their interpretation is out to lunch."
I guess this really made me feel bad I spent any money there. I guess everyone has their own experiences.
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djf2005
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Is there anything you comment on that isn't done in such a doom and gloom way? lol
His practice is so busy. It wasnt him, it's his office staff. He actually said he would love to sign up w/ NS but it didnt happen, so I went with IP.
Sounds like you had a bad experience tainted by a Dr. who doesn't like NS. I don't know why.
They just recently spoke at the lyme-autism conference and are widely accredited as a very good lab and good at what they do.
What you say doesn't make sense, nor is there an explanation for it.
You said- "If what they suggested initially worked, that was useful. However, repeat testing did not help at all"
I don't know what that means. So in your Drs opinion the initial test was helpful but not the follow ups?
I guess I don't understand what you're trying to allude to, if you think it doesn't work or you think you were taken advantage of, what have you.
Did you follow the recommendations that were laid out for you in an attempt to correct what was found to be off?
I would like this thread to remain as positive as possible and I am optimistic about this testing, as it has helped many people.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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I'll work on my positivity Derek. Sorry. I hope the treatment and testing works great for you.
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springshowers
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Derek. Did your doctor then have to make the referral or order in order for Medicare to Pay??
Thats what I gather from your post and why you had to switch to another company?
Did your doctor say they were ok with that choice and not the other?
Just a bit confused.. WOuld you mind clarifying? THanks
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djf2005
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Seek, no sweat. I just tire of LN somedays. I'm gonna pull a massman one of these days, I swear
Anyway, not that your Dr probably doesn't have legit reasons as to why she is unhappy w/ NS, just that I am not yet unhappy and don't even want those "it's not going to work negative thoughts" creeping into my head... you understand. Thanks for being cool.
Spring- My Dr. did not have to make the referral for IP (the company I used). A referral is needed if one uses NS (a different company). They both test and treat similarly, just different companies. NS being the more well known of the two I am sure.
I switched from NS to IP because my doctor was not yet a member of NS and as such being his patient I was not eligible for testing through NS until he became one.
My Dr originally has said he would sign up for NS but has been so busy (as usual) that his staff never got around to it, so this left me with only IP as my option.
It's not that my Dr or me or scoobie doo cares which company it is, it just happened this way. IP makes it easy also because I don't need a referral and the testing is covered so even if the whole thing is a bomb, which it won't be, I get new adrenal testing and new neurotransmitter testing which will be exciting to see where exactly everything is at.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
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Love it Derek. I looked at that website. Perfect idea to cut the middleman out. If they have an in-staff doctor signing off on lab test, I imagine insurance will reimburse if it's an eligible test. What a great way to avoid massive LLMD and other doc fees when begging for tests. Brilliant logic.
Most of the people on this forum are as amart as 95% of the docs anyway collectively. There's nothing people don't know here really.
Perhaps, tbis is the article or experience my practicioner had:
We all know everyone reacts differently to protocols.
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djf2005
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Yeah, we will see if the results are brilliant.
I hope it helps in some way.
The adrenal testing is included anyway so I will get a new reading on them at the very least and see what they have to say about the rest.
I didn't read the article yet and don't plan on it until I go through the process. I believe HOW we perceive something will affect us largely CAN and does affect the outcome of therapies. Not that it's not a valid point, I would'nt know, but again, I am keeping an open mind and a positive outlook on this one, for now.
I'll post more info for those interested once I have it.
If this all proves to have been a waste, you all know me, I tell it like it is. lol
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Huh, I just saw this post for the first time.
My LLMD didn't want to treat me for thyroid alone, so I had to find a local doctor. He's an alternative MD.
Anyway, in the questionnaire, I put that I didn't sleep as soundly as I'd like. I sleep through the night, but wake up easily, so have to have it absolutely quiet. (I wear ear plugs).
On this system, you start at level one, a week later go to level 2. It's only if you still have symptoms that you get tested and go to level 3.
I did fine on level one. I jumped into level 2 at the full dose and had that "rare" reaction .... I felt like I had been doing drugs, kind of like prescription painkillers make your brain feel.
They say this happens if you're severely depleted, so I stopped level 2 and am now ramping up.
I'm glad I found this because I'm really working on building back my body so that I don't come out of remission. Interesting science, can't believe I had never heard of it before.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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springshowers
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Thanks Derek.. Got it. now. .. Makes sense..
I want to look more into this too and good to know those logistics ..
Hope it works out to be something that helps a lot..
Let us all know... for sure as you go through the process...
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djf2005
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Will do spring.
Thanks for the link six.
There's some good info on that site, and I understand better and will more when I read the inter-relation between 5htp and all the other amino acids needed to rebalance dopamine and seratonin properly.
right now I am just using 5htp at bt but from the looks of it unless its properly off set w/ its counterpart it will eventually deplete me of dopamine even though it may be producing more seratonin....
I hope IP knows enough to do this work for me and can make good suggestions once my results are in.
Thanks again for the link, this info will be helpful as I go through the testing and process of.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Cool, Derek. He never talked about that with me, but I was so responsive to everything he threw at me, he probably thought I didn't need it.
I do think you need the 5HTP in balance with the others. I'm sleeping sooo good now, it's great. That was really my last lingering symptom .... I just thought it was because of age ....
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djf2005
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Seek-
You might be right as far as accuracy of results.
I am getting mixed reports but it seems that for certains amino acids blood levels are more reliable.
I am going to call tomorrow and see if this test is also one of the ones that can be covered by ins/medicare. It doesn't look like it since it's sent to VD lab but maybe it is.
I'll let you know what I find out. If it is covered, I will try to switch it for what we have already ordered. If it can't be switched, I will move forward w/ the original plan and hope for good results.
Thanks again.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
djf2005
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Might want to give this a read also.
It basically says urinary samples have their place and can aid in dx and tx of transmitters whereas w/o them there is no dx tool.(unless revert to blood platelet)
seekhelp
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Sure Derek. I'm not trying to be negative. I just want to help. I'm no expert, but the article I forwarded is quite informative. if you're going to do something, I guess do it right.
I'll read what you posted too. Thanks. Please let me know how it all works out because I have a genuine interest in all this. I think experimenting with GABA and / or 5-HTP may be worth a shot for myself. L-Theanine does help a tiny bit with anxiety at times, but not enough.
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Seek, check out the website I posted. It's important to take them in balance.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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djf2005
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Np, Seek, I understand you aren't.
I read the article you posted, seems it works for some via urinary samples, and for others it does not. Id say the blood testing is the most reliable according to the article, but I am no expert.
Also, the site six posted has a lot of good info that explains how all the Amino Acids people use in attempt to alleviate depression/anxiety symptoms must be used in conjunction w/ certain ones. I don't fully understand it yet but I am going to re-read it.
Basically from what I gather if you use one or two serotonin precursors too much by themselves they will eventually deplete you of dopamine thus rendering it only as temporary relief.
Anyway, I called IP a minute ago about the blood platelet test that is avilable and no, insurance/medicare does not cover it, and they don't seem to think it's more accurate. (because it's not or because it's an out of house test?)
This information was relayed by the front desk so I am going to get an email out to the NP who selects the testing and ask what their stance officially is on the difference.
So I will be keeping the urine/saliva test for now and hoping for the best.
IP told me that the saliva is actually a better way to get an accurate reading than blood often because of the many variables that a blood draw has that can alter the results as well.
I am no expert, and the jury is out, but I have no choice but to move forward w/ what I have already selected.
I cannot tell if the article seek posted is biased in some way and if the article posted on IP's website is as well.
We will see. I will continue to post updates as I go through the process.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Hello West Chester! Before being diagnosed, a Kinesiologist had me take several sets of tests. One was for my neurotransmitters and it was through NeuroScience.
I have no basis to support the validity of these tests or the integrity of the lab - only my experience.
When the doctor went over the results with me, some neurotransmitters were double what they should be and some were half of the optimal range. Bottom line he said I was in a constant state of exhaustion and startlement, which was spot on.
He had me take some replacement supplements for a few months but there was no improvement.
For me, it was another piece to the puzzle and helped explain some of the symptoms I have. Maybe it could be used as a benchmark later?
Let us know how your results turn out.
-------------------- ---------- Danni Posts: 311 | From Glen Mills, PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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seekhelp
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Derek, I'm more inclined to think IP has that article WRITTEN by NeuroScience Labs on their page to support product sales. At least the Townsend Letter article (which I don't really give much credibility to that publisher) is an independent one with no apparent links to sales.
Of course IP will push products/tests insurance pays KNOWING odds are they will get patients to have them done. Oh, and it's an $85 consult fee too for them. No insurance paying = most times no test ordering = no consult fee from patients, right? Yes, we all have paid out-of-pocket for stuff out of desperation, but as a general rule this logic holds.
My take on the NS article was most testing was on rats, no proof of results. What none of the articles provided was how a lab comes up with genuine ranges of neurotransmitters for a so called 'normal/healthy' person. Important, right?
I guess I have a huge skepticism towards many specialty labs, their financial arrangements with integrative doctors, and general approach. Not all labs can be mainstream, but I constantly see this incentive circle where the doctor or lab produces a result off a test which in turn leads to guess what..product sales, which then leads to necessary consults later fot f/u, and more product sales, and the circle of profit lingers. I get scared to be in that trap.
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djf2005
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Danni-
Thanks for sharing your experience. Do you recall or would you mind sharing which transmitters were found to be double, and/or half what they should have been and what was used to try to correct them? Do you recall supplement names, ingredients in them, dosages, and duration of treatment you tried?
I know this is a lot to ask, but it could be very helpful as it may shed some light for me and others as to what has been tried; what works, and what doesn't. I know it's not a one size fits all and your experience was a singular one but more specific information may be helpful.
I will definitley keep you updated though on what my testing reflects as well as what I choose to do to attempt to correct it.
Seek, I acknowledge your points and agree that some of them may be valid.
I understand and sometimes feel your frustration about the cycle of private labs, practitioners, and their use of results to cyclically push expensive supplements.
Like I said on a different thread, I think this type of testing is not yet widely accepted, proven, or accredited so we are broaching waters that are not yet fully explored. This, IMO, is what being proactive is all about.
But, on the other hand, what is the alternative?
I think as patients, (me, you, etc) all we can do is make the most well informed decisions we can on how to best rectify our current situations.
If you think about it, these companies would not be doing ANY saliva or blood testing for that matter if it did not have some positive effect sometimes, so I don't believe that it can be written off as a total bomb (not that anyone is implying so)
Yes IP has a 85$ consult fee, but since they make sure INS/medicare covers it it's really a small price to pay for what may be revealed. At the very least, as I have said, I am getting new adrenal testing which in it of itself would cost more than 85$ (for me at least)
There is no "wrong" move here in my opinion. No one is going to force me to buy anything once the results are in, and if I decide to try some of the recommendations, who knows, maybe it will help.
We have that link to the site six referenced so as patients can be informed as to how all the amino acids function in harmony before getting this type of testing or considering it.
So I'll be educated by the time the results are in, be able to sniff a rat, or be helped.
I hope it proves to helpful, if only in some small way.
And again, for 85$, it's a lot of information that could "potentially" lead to some relief.
IMO, that's worth the skepticism and possible fallout of another wasted test.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
djf2005
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Your concerns should be considered first if the issues/symptoms you speak of are factors in a given person's make-up.
I have no disagreement w/ what you say massman, given the patient has digestion issues.
I personally do not.
I appreciate your questions, but I feel as if you know the answers to your own questions and are only asking them rhetorically, for whatever reason.
If you do know of certain foods which aid in NT function, then by all means, I would like to hear.
Stating that poor digestion can affect NT function is fine, but again, that's assuming I/you/whoever has that as an underlying issue.
Can NT function be out of wack even w/ proper digestion and a healthy balanced diet due to stealth pathogens causing neurological impairment and other associated symptoms?
Yes.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
I am no longer treating Lyme but a few years ago I did have my cortisol and neurotransmitters tested through NS and for me the test seemed extremely accurate.
My saliva cortisol was flatlined which totally explained my exhaustion and most of the urine neurotransmitters were very depressed. I can give you a couple examples and then what I took.
Cortisol 7am 2.6 (7.0-10) noon 1.2 (3.0-6.0) 4pm 1.4 (2.0-4.0) night was normal
DHEA 152.0 (300-500)
My doctor put me on Adrecor capsules 6 daily and DHEA 25mg (I think)
Now my new doctor does not believe in this test at all. She said the blood cortisol 8am is accurate. I don't know but at the time the NS test seemed right on.
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djf2005
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Thanks Kim for sharing that, it was helpful.
Your new Dr believes that your blood reading for cortisol is accurate? I was under the impression cortisol could only be accurately measured through a saliva test 4x day as listed in your notes above?
Glad you are not having to treat for lyme at this point, that's great news. Thanks again for sharing.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
A questionairre is more sensitive/specific than a urinary neurotransmitter test. However, Vitamin Diagnostics offers a platelet test for $595. Expensive, yes, but it looks like it may be the real deal.
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posted
Yes, she believes the cortisol blood test is accurate. I guess I will find out in the coming months as she is tapering me off cortef.
I am going to have an MRI of my brain to see if there is something wrong with the hypothalmus (sp) and then probably a cortisol stim test.
She now believes my adrenals have been supressed from the cortef and that is the cause of my fatigue now.
They think? the infection is gone but I am still having major fatigue problems.
But like I said it seemed as though the test was right on at the time and it gave me some proof that indeed something was very wrong with me.
As far as the cortisol test goes I don't know which is more accurate. I would honestly like to have the saliva done again now since my blood level was 23 at 8am (5-24) normal and I am still fighting fatigue constantly. Good Luck....
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
Massman, my doctor's hand out on the NT's explains that there was something - stress, illness, etc. - that depleted the NT's. That normally the NT's would be derived from food, but in a depleted state supplementation is needed to make up for the deficiency. He considers it to be a temporary measure until the NT's are repleted.
One of the symptoms is poor digestion, which is supposed to improve on the program, thus increasing the body's ability to absorb them in a normal way from food.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Kday-
If you cold point me to some data that would support a questionaire being more reliable and accurate than measuring actual brain chemical levels through urinary testing I would appreciate it.
I do agree the blood test may be more reliable, I am in the process of getting a response from IP on what they believe the difference is.
Kim-
Glad they think the infection is gone. Hope you find the reason for your fatigue soon, could be persisting infection, could be a host of things.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
You know, we could all made decisions by symptoms alone until the ends of the Earth. Lyme = clinical Dx; every co-infection = clinical Dx; Thyroid = clinical Dx; anxiety/depression = clinical Dx. Really, when would it ever end? What proof would these alternative docs ever need to justify their supplement sales? Think about this carefully. I think it's territory for abuse at some point.
DJF, all of KDay's comments are basically from the Internet link I originally posted including the quesionnaire being most useful. Also, be sure IP addresses specifically the platelet testing and doesn't try to spin a story about serum testing unreliability. It may be tough to admit a product/test is better at times.
What on Earth happened to Abxnomore? I thought this poster would be jumping in with comments like crazy on this thread as they have lots of knowledge. I hope to hear from them.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Who is making decisions based on symptoms alone?
You? I am not. A lot of us are forced to but isn't that the point of reaching out with testing like this in the first place? It's a step.
LOOK, I am not saying this is a magical test, that it's going to cure anyone's problems, or even that it's going to help me (and I said this in my aforementioned posts).
I am simply hoping it will provide some benefit.
You keep referring me to one article for your points and I could keep doing the same to justify this type of testing.
I don't see where the abuse is. If a patient does not allow a Dr's influence of pushing of a certain idea or product to influence him/her than there is no possibility abuse will take place. We have the freedom to protect ourselves from abuse, whatever it's form, and to do so freely.
Think about what? I don't get what you are saying, again. Your viewpoint on so many things seems to come from someone who is bitter at being taken down so many roads to no avail. I can understand this, but why does that then turn into being extremely skeptical about everything? Your skepticism then turns to negativity (outwardly) and it's just one snowball effect that is really draining.
I am really starting to question why I even bother to post all of the different things I am currently trying. I had hopes it would expand people's horizons but that does not seem to be the case.
Just because I am posting an effort I am making does not mean that everything I attempt to do is right or will be helpful. It is an attempt, some things work, and some things do not.
Seek, this testing you are not fond of, your Dr is not fond of, so is it possible you could be a bit bias?
And furthermore, if this testing is even flawed 100%, at least I tried it and then will move on.
It is not tough to admit there could possibly be a better test, I don't know how many times in this thread I have acknowledged that the blood serum test from VD is probably better but that since the testing I am already committed to is virtually free I have chosen to move forward with it.
I don't know what happened to ABXnomore but I wish she would chime in too, because I am just about spent with LN in general.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
seek - why so much concern that most practitioners are moneysuckers ? Especially those that sell supplements ?
One of the most truly appalling things to me is BigPharma and its patentable drugs that give each company a very large $$$ advantage. Then lets talk their profit margins, hiding of evidence in studies and encouragement of dismissing and attempt to control supplements.
IME most practitioners do not thoroughly study supplements, their makeup and what they do. Our culture focuses on feeling better and that is about it. And many (here and in practitioners offices) use supplements like most MDs use drugs.
I have said repeatedly (and practiced) that what makes the most sense is to use supplements and recommend treatments that encourage bodies and their owners to HEAL so that ongoing use of supplements are not needed.
I have also + often highly recommended 2 books to read to further understand what is going on:
"The Real Truth About Vitamins and Antioxidants" by Judith DeCava RN and "New Dimensions in Herbal Healing" by Jack Tips ND PhD.
I have not heard of anyone on this site reading these. The money you could save with the knowledge is much hgher than the cost of these books.
Why classify all practitioners that sell supplements as the same until you really know what they are doing and why they are doing it ?
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seekhelp
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posted
I guess I just get so frustrated going into offices and incurring charges of $500-$700 for one visit out-of-pocket. It makes my stomach sink when I consider how much good that same money could do my family or others and it's on a bottle of pills.
Massman, I'm truly not saying alternative practicioners or conventional MDs don't genuinely believe what they Rx is going to help a patient. I've just had some alternative docs look surprised when I had sticker shock from a $500+ bill month and month. I often feel like the mentality at these docs, including LLMDs is these poor people will pay anything for hope and shouldn't bat an eye at these high costs. I don't even get the vibe of true compassion 99% of the time.
DJF, I do appreciate all your posts, thoughts, ideas, and recommendations. You've given me a lot of ideas since I've been here. Please don't take my viewpoint as bad. My opinion on this type of testing isn't formed yet. I profess to be no expert. I just read what I can and hope some of it's legit.
My nature is to think to myself why would someone or some company write something and do they have something to gain by promotion? I am a checks and balances kind of person. I prefer to keep the diagnoser away from the product or the test facility away from the docs and have them all perform independently, but this is far from reality in the U.S..
Sadly, if all of us took every consideration posted on Lymenet at face value, we'd be broke so fast unless independently wealthy. We all have to make our best guesses through this corn maze.
Don't think I'm not open to ideas or alternative treatments because I'm on them.
Going back to your comment Massman, how many integrative doctors would have no problems whatsoever if the patient said I'll buy all my product elsewhere and you just do the diagnosing? You've got the experience. Would this fly? One stop shopping certainly has its advantages,but I truly believe the medical field would progress leaps and bounds if these ties were pulled.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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djf2005
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posted
I buy all of my stuff from alternative sources. Not a single thing comes from any of my practitioners.
I am short on time and energy, I will try to respond to the rest of what you said when I can.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
I don't know why that one article keeps getting reposted, but there is plenty of evidence that urinary neurotransmitter testing isn't good.
This article might be a little better since it cites the sources. There are medical journals pertaining to the subject, but they aren't easy to read through.
If you are testing for adrenal function or cortisol, again, there are tests on the market now that are very accurate and specific, and I hear the saliva cortisol test isn't bad either. These can be useful diagnostic tools.
As for testing for serotonin, that's a whole different story. I mentioned that a platelet test may be better, but there is contradicting information, and I really don't know much to comment on the accuracy. CSF is apparently the best way to measure neurotransmitters such as serotonin, but again, that's not an every day procedure, and I doubt a test like that would ever go mainstream.
That being said, while urinary neurotransmitter testing may not be perfect science, don't give up hope. By having hope, I believe answers will come, and you will heal. This test, scientifically supported or not, may lead you down the right path (if only by cooincidence). I don't think anyone here (including myself) is trying to put you down, so keep your head up. You aren't doing anything wrong with posting your experiences, and do not think people here are trying to hurt you. There is no need to defend yourself. Just keep hope and focus on healing.
-Kyle
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by seekhelp: You know, we could all made decisions by symptoms alone until the ends of the Earth. Lyme = clinical Dx; every co-infection = clinical Dx; Thyroid = clinical Dx;
I dont give much in "clinical diagnosis" .There are labs( for lyme, chronic inflammation ,thyrood ,HPTA - they are not perfect but they are there) . I go by labs. I know some people choose here to rely on clinical Dx but I personally have little faith in it - as symptoms are too vague of a thing to rely on imho
quote: anxiety/depression = clinical Dx.
Dont give a **** about those anymore. -No lab for it - I dont care.
If its something vague you can never put your finger on imho standard recommendations would do -exercises, diet and blah blah blah. - I mean if some thing magically relieves your symptoms its great , otherwise you could be doing and not knowing whether its helping or not.
quote: Really, when would it ever end? What proof would these alternative docs ever need to justify their supplement sales? Think about this carefully. I think it's territory for abuse at some point.
I dunno , frankly I haven't had the docs tried to sell me anything (except the dentist). I ask them about their opinion on various supps but I buy them online.
On the other hand I kinda feel its unfair people lash out on LLMDs for charging out of pocket. My current LLMD charges very reasonable fee per visit and she spends a lot more time than your standard in network doc ever would .In fact paying her out of pocket is cheaper than paying most of the insurance premiums (insurance covers labs though which is a biggy)
Regular docs charge same outrageous amount of money, for less service and no care!
posted
From my experience..many if not most of my doctors have gone by standard lab results except my LLMD and my homeopathic doctor.
Now that I am seeing an endocrinologist (whom my LLMD suggested) she basically told me all the testing my homeo did is not valid and I had many extremely expensive testing done.
1. NutrEval- in which they took 8 tubes of blood and did a comprehensive nutritional evaluation of oxidative stress-organic acids-amino acids-essential fatty acids-toxic and nutrient elements. I received a 26 page report and this test was thousands of dollars.
2. Breathlyzer-which they tested for yeast overgrowth in my stomach.
3. Stool test- which tested for parasites, mold, etc. Now on this test I had a high reading indicating celiac so I went to my gastro who was floored. I had the blood test for celiac earlier and it was totally negative. I wanted the biopsy and he said okay but the blood test is accurate and the stool is NOT.
So I guess my point is that in my opinion most of the mainstream docs believe nothing in these tests. I can tell you that my insurance covered all of these and I had to pay my 20 percent but that was alot of money.
Nothing ever came of these and they were all normal but the saliva test I personally believe in even though the endo does not.
When we are sick and struggling to find out a reason why we are not getting well I think if possible we have to do whatever we can to find out.
I am still struggling 5 years with chronic unrelenting fatigue which forced me unable to work anymore so whatever tests the doctor wants me to do I will if possible.
I do feel the NutrEval was very unecessary but my doctor didn't know what to do for me and wanted to give it a try.
There are always going to be controversy on which test is best but we are all doing what we think is right for each of us and I will continue to do so.
Derek- I am very curious to hear what your results will show on the saliva test. In fact I am going to ask my new doc to have me do another one in january when I see him just out of curiousity since my blood cortisol was in the normal range.
My LLMD or homeopathic never pushed supplements on me but suggested them and it was my choice. I usually went home and bought them online much cheaper...
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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Abxnomore
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Member # 18936
posted
Abxnomore is quiet because I'm preparing for an extended vacation and will be gone for a long while but mostly because I have given you my opinions already numerous times and you guys are going in circles.
Neuro science is the lab that the large majority of alternative M.D.'s use and I have said it before. I have had excellent results with them and Kellerman, the head of the lab is world renowned, so why are you trying to reinvent the wheel? I've seen some of the top alternative doctors and they all use Neuro Science.
Medicare also pays for the testing. Medicare would not be paying for it, it they thought is was such unreliable nonsense, as I have been seeing alternative M.D.s for close to 25 years and there are still many tests that Medicare or any insurance won't pay for as they don't believe they are worthy.
Also, all of you have to stop thinking that mainstream doctors treat the same way an ACAM doctor does. They do not and have a different vision about how to achieve wellness.
It's a akin to the folks who call our LLMD's quacks for treating Lyme the way they do, so why is it so hard to make the leap that your LLMD or AMA doctor may not have all the answers or the latest cutting edge tools at his disposal?
We have been thru this before. A cortisol blood test is worthless and I have known that for at least 14 years but AMA doctors don't do cutting edge medicine. One needs to see the cortisol pattern and it is essential that you have four readings in a given day to see if your cortisol levels are in keeping with the rhythm of then bodies normal cortisol pattern. One blood test at any old time of the day will tell you squat, perhaps, get you a script for cortef which you may or may not need.
ACAM doctors use the cutting edge tools and delve much deeper in to issues that any AMA doctor and here and there you will find an AMA doctor who has branched out but it's not the norm. It's a different kind of training and knowledge.
There is no one here who has a serious case Lyme who does not have issues with adrenals, cortisol levels or neurotransmitters and,in fact, most of our population does because of our lifestyle.
Any serious stress, infection, illness, trauma, or accident could knock them all out of balance.
Those of you who have LLMD's who don't address these issues and are not using the right tests will always be behind the eight ball in terms of being able to heal and get well.
Google, read and educate yourselves about adrenals, cortisol levels and neuro transmitters and don't wait for any doctor to talk to you about it. When you understand it, go out and find someone who is good and get yourself the right help. These issues play just a big a role as ABX does in getting well.
Seek, sorry but if you don't get the picture about the big fees with the LLMD's then you don't understand the entire history about how they have come to be. No one likes to pay them and unfortunately some people can't even pay them and don't have access to some of the best LLMD's thou I do admit there are some very good ones that don't charge those high fees but it is what it is.
If you want to get well either you pay them or move to an area where you can find someone who is are in the minority who doesn't charge those big fees.
And, if you have an LLMD, no matter what his reputation is and you are not making progress after sticking it out a long while and feel he is not on the top of his game move on and find another one. And it's my strong opinion that mono therapy and low doses is a waste of time. Yes, I know some have gotten better that way but it prolongs the suffering and cannot effectively pass the blood brain barrier. Only high doses of orals will and even at that not as effectively as any IV will. Dr.B's protocol of aggressive treatment is what brings the results but still it can take many, many years and right now that is what we have to work with until some big break thru is made.
It's what you do with anything in life. When it's time to make a change we do it. Most of us have had to do doctor hopping after a while for a new perspective and approach. Sadly, it's just the way it goes and all of you should be doing your research and not relying solely on any LLMD but should be bringing ideas into them and being proactive patients. They don't have the "cure" yet and much of the treatment it is still trial and error to find the right combo's of ABX that will work until they no longer do so and need to be changed, so it goes without saying the you have to do the work along with them.
Massman, glad to see you are back.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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Abxnomore
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posted
Seekhelp, like any thing else there are good, not so good and bad ACAM doctors.
But, honestly I don't know where you are getting your information from.
If you are totally locked into an AMA model of medicine you are with many people who are but you are cutting yourself off from an entirely different perspective about how to achieve wellness.
Of course, you have a right to your own beliefs and what you feel comfortable with.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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Abxnomore
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posted
"Going back to your comment Massman, how many integrative doctors would have no problems whatsoever if the patient said I'll buy all my product elsewhere and you just do the diagnosing?"
Seek, I have seen integrative M.D.s for years. They write up a protocol and suggest the "good" pharmaceutical grade brands to buy but I have never been told that I had to buy them from them. I get them from my own sources for the best price I can find. My current doctor does not even stock any supplements.
If you have been seeing doctors that are forcing you to buy supplements from them, then there is something wrong with that picture but that is not the norm.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Now I am not sure what to think about the cortisol testing. My LLMD sent me to the endocrinologist in order to find out if they could do anything else for me.
That is why I ended up having the blood cortisol tested...just more confusion
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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Abxnomore
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Member # 18936
posted
The endo will not know how to properly deal with cortisol issues or adrenal issues. They look at them though a very narrow tunnel and only treat advanced problems with drugs.
They deal with the end result of these issues when left unattended for years, addison's and cushing's disease.
An ACAM doctor knows how to treat the whole body and will right off the bat give you an adrenal home kit to test your adrenal functioning. If he is really good, he will give you the neuro science kit that tests both adrenal function and neuro transmitters.
www.neurorelief.com The lab can give you a list of practitioners in your area that use their lab.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Abxnomore-
Thanks for chiming in.
When you went through NS for your testing, was it saliva and urine?
I simply could not go through NS due to the fact that my Dr was not a member and financially I can not afford a new Dr just for this testing.
I understand IP may be inferior but I am hoping it's results are along the same lines.
At this point this thread has gotten so far away from actual discussion regarding neuro-transmitter testing that I have little desire to continue posting anything on it.
Everyone seems to be an expert. LOL
If only that were so.
It is clear that urine analysis is not 100% perfect nor may it be the best way to measure Nts.
It is however, one way to go about it, and not a bad alternative to a 600$ test that is not covered by insurance.
When I get my urine results for the NTs, I may or may not post back. At this immediate moment I am getting very close to losing the desire to share altogether. The saliva is used for cortisol alone I believe.
As Abxnomore said, this thread has been going in circles and has really served little puspose.
I started this thread in an effort to gain more info on a specific kind of testing and as usual, it's side-tracked with personal opinions and agendas that have little to do w/ the actual topic.
Personal venting, recommendation, and the like, which again, have little to nothing to do w/ the actual topic.
If LN members could maintain a "lets help one another out" mentality it would be so much more effective. Even when we disagree, rather than saying "this will not work" would it not be more productive to say "perhaps this will work better" instead and leave the incessant complaining and negativity to one's self?
I will not give up trying new alternatives, re-searching new possibilities, and keeping my focus on what really matters.
I will however get to a point personally, where LN becomes a distant memory, because through the above measures I will once again be well.
I think in the near distant future I am going to develop a website to share my journey with others thus avoiding all the wasted time on this forum.
Agreeing to disagree is one thing but what occurs on LN as of late is a whole 'nother thing.
I mean no disrespect to any of you through the above statements, and I wish you all continued healing and success in your journey.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Derek,
I used neuroscience panel 9028 and have used it many times. The neuro transmitters are tested thru the urine and the cortisol thru saliva.
I don't claim to be an expert but am sharing my experience and my vast improvement by using this lab and this process.
I have been free of lyme and co's for about eight years but battled it for almost twenty. So, I have lots of experience in the fight to get well.
Having Lyme so long, it left it's mark and one of them was a major upset in my brain chemistry, i.e, neuro transmitters. My adrenal function is pretty much back in balance but I'm still working on it and I think because of having Lyme it will always be an issue for me. I think the Lyme so stressed my CNS that I simply don't deal well with any stress and will always need adrenal and possibly neuro transmitter support.
As with anything, there will always be different opinions. This work with neuro transmitters is relatively new in the scheme of things and pretty cutting edge. And, I have been to AMA doctors, neurologists, who have told me that the neuro transmitters levels cannot be tested. They simply don't believe it and have their head in a tunnel.
The only lab I have ever used or have seen any doctor use is Neuro Science. It seems to be the most popular and widely used one, at least for now.
If you can't use them I guess you can try another lab. I have never heard of the others, so can't offer an opinion on them. If you go to the ACAM site you may be able to find a doctor there that may work within your special personal parameters and uses Neuro Science.
All I can say is if you want to beat this illness you must leave no stone unturned and you must combine both the work of an LLMD and an integrative approach. If you have an LLMD who does both and really is well trained with lots of years of experience with an integrative approach then you are one lucky person. And there are some LLMDs that fit that description but not many.
I agree with you about what you have said about the site. That's why I'm taking a hiatus.
But what is taking place is a combination of human nature, the nature of the illness, the outside forces that are against us and come him to troll using false monikers and those that suffer with the illness as well and have a different vision for the Lyme community.
The Lyme community is divided and has been for many years and some either directly or indirectly come here to cause chaos for the purpose of distracting and to take us off message.
It's very unfortunate but I doubt you will find a place that does not have these issues. Take from this site what you need and can learn from and just keep in mind that we are in the middle of one controversial illness with a disease that no one can understand unless they have walked in our shoes.
Don't ever give up no matter how long it takes. Just keep doing what you are doing. Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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northstar
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posted
quote: Now on this test I had a high reading indicating celiac so I went to my gastro who was floored. I had the blood test for celiac earlier and it was totally negative. I wanted the biopsy and he said okay but the blood test is accurate and the stool is NOT.
Gastro's? Harumph....the last one said there was no lyme in my state. Another said there were no such thing as parasites.....so I feel that they are not always well-informed.
I think the blood test is for genetic celiac. Stool test will measure antibodies.
There are 2 types of celiac conditions: genetic and acquired/sensitive.
The gut system in tickborne diseases is affected, and the triggers (wheat, barley, etc) can have negative effect because of the inflamed system and/or enzyme dysregulation, just as a genetic celiac. To some, this is labelled "leaky gut".
Also, there are some hld-dr types that can predispose sensitivity, but still not be a true celiac.
So the MD may not be aware of these nuances & other conditions.
This may be why the gluten reduced/gluten free diet is recommended for some time.
The "one shot" cortisol test is only measuring at that point in time.
It does not register a daily pattern, such as low a.m./high p.m.(which is reverse of normal),
nor can it discriminate effects such as temporary stress in having to go to the lab, etc,which is another "point in time" effect.
I prefer the multiple sample, since it showed high p.m. cortisol, which can be addressed with various supplements.
Low morning cortisol can be addressed too with an a.m. supplement. Then there are adrenal modulators for an overall effect.
However, I did want the blood test to confirm the first a.m. saliva cortisol, which it did. So I operated on the principle that the other saliva readings were an adequate representation, and the pattern was obvious. I also looked at how I felt/acted (historically), to see if it represented the pattern.
Combining info, with lots of reading (including medline), can help. Maybe there is info online about the NS results, to help guide supplementation.
Be alert to listed toxic levels for some of the supplements, if you are supplementing from various sources. I did a grid sheet once to be sure certain vit/min totals were not approaching this level, including estimated dietary intake. Selenium and vit E+A come to mind here, especially chemical vs. natural forms.
Northstar
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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This doctor suggests that the only way to correct NT imbalances is to "provide the basic amino acid precursors or building blocks so the body can replenish the inadequate neurotransmitter levels"
Would you mind Pm'ing me the name of which LLMD you use?
Hope you don't ave to go out in this beautiful snowstorm we're having! Please do let us know the results of your NT tests.
Danni
-------------------- ---------- Danni Posts: 311 | From Glen Mills, PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Roz- (I think that's your name, right?)
Thank you for sharing the information as well as your encouraging words. You are one of the few people who's opinion I find to be unbiased and usually informative, I appreciate that.
I suspect the same as you, I still have many symptoms, but the brain chemistry is way off.
I have gone down the road of blindly medicating the symptoms through a LLP which never resulted in anything but worsening of symptoms.
NT testing peaked my interest when I saw it initially because if I could actually see what was happening, I could learn how to better correct it. I still believe this can be done.
If my experience w/ IP is not acceptable, I will simply push my Dr a little harder to get signed up w/ NS. He currently uses Aeron Life Cycles for regular saliva adrenal testing and correction but does not have a provider for NT testing at this point.
He is not against NS in anyway, just extremely busy and hard to get through to. Persistence is key with him as it is with Lyme.
I would say that I am a lucky person as far as my LLMD goes, he is rather integrative from my own personal experience as well as the patients I know that see him (there are quite a few, he is Dr B's predecessor)
I went through 5 llmds before arriving at his doorstep, but beyond completely changing the paradigm and seeing DK (which is a possibility) I feel that I am in a good place.
As with anyone, I am left to do much of my own reading, learning, and overall healing, but he has the tools and knowledge necessary to get me and others into a better place of health. If/when I plateau, I will begin to go down other avenues. (heck, I already am. lol)
I agree that there is no perfect forum, and that we as people, especially w/ lyme, cannot and will not be perfect. The processes that are set in motion in each individual thread are fueled by so many things rarely of which is unbiased sharing of information.
This leaves LN and message boards in general far from their full potential. Nonetheless, I am grateful to have them because flawed as they may be, they have been a means for sharing and learning of which I do not know how else I would have attained.
Anyway, I won't ever give up, and I appreciate your kind words. Keep keeping on is the only way through this mess, and keeping an unbiased, informed, and open mind is the key I believe.
Enjoy your vacation/breather from LN, and come back when you can. You are an asset to the lyme community, no doubt about it.
Also, your PM capability is turned off I see, I was hoping there might be a way I could get in touch w/ you outside of LN.
If so, please PM me w/ the info or email me, and if not, I understand.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Abx- I know you are headed on a vacation and I hope it is relaxing and recharging.
But please do come back to LymeNet. It is frustrating when posts become contentious but know that in the bigger picture, your experience is of great help to many, including me.
Have a great trip!
-------------------- ---------- Danni Posts: 311 | From Glen Mills, PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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northstar
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7911
there are links to discussions of neurotransmitters, metabolic by products, levels,amino acids etc.
Sometimes measuring indirectly can be better than directly.
(this is a link to metametrix.com, with a search for neurotransmitter metabolism).
North
Posts: 1331 | From hither and yonder | Registered: Sep 2005
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Thank you all for your kind words. A vacation recharge is certainly needed. Haven't had one in a long while.
Derek, no I don't have any Lyme symptoms at all thru all these years. It's purely adrenal issues and brain chemistry problems that any person with depression, anxiety and a host of other issues can have. I also have my share of personal problems that contribute to these issues.
Also, note that the targeted supplements that neuro science uses are primarily amino acids and precursors. It's a very good line of products and I have used other products in the past recommended by past physicians before I found Neuro Science and didn't have the same kind of results I am getting now.
Also, Derek, I know who your LLMD is and I think you are in good hands but as you said you still, as the patient, have to do exactly what you are doing. Research, learn and be proactive.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Derek- I just wanted to say that my LLMD (Dr. H) had my saliva tested through Aeron 2 years ago along with DHEA so I have used both NS and Aeron laboratories.
Kim
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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posted
northstar- yes the stool was for antibodies and my doctor is the one who sent me to the gastro to have the endoscopy with biopsy done to check for celiac.
thank you for the great information and I will have to think some more about getting another saliva test done. it has been 2 years now since my previous one.
i don't want to hijack derek's post anymore so that is all from me.
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Kim-
You used NS through Dr H at some point or just Aeron?
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Derek- I just used Aeron through Dr. H My doctor here had me use NS. One was done in October 2006 (NS) and the other in November 2007
Both results were very different from one another but the first one I was not on cortef and the second one I was.
Posts: 343 | From North Carolina | Registered: Oct 2008
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Thanks
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
For those of you on this therapy, did you have symptoms adjusting to the NT's?
I have been feeling out of sorts, still feeling well, mostly dizzy, but more than dizzy, not dizzy like a kid spinning in circles, more like taking a prescription painkiller.
I can take a certain dosage with no symptoms, but when I increase the dosage (I'm still not where my doc wants me to be), then I have symptoms.
My husband keeps trying to get me to stop taking them, but from what I've read the symptoms are from severe depletion, so I feel I should push through it.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
Why are you taking anything Six when you say you're 100% improved already?
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Seek -- physically six may be 100%, but there is always more we are searching for, at least for me. Like how to totally understand why we need any medication or certain supplements. You could be sleeping well but only if you take a herbal relaxer. Why?
So you can feel 100% healthy, but not be 100% balanced. Or maybe 100% isn't the final goal.
Once you get to remission, remission by itself isn't the end goal. There is still more to learn. I know I'd like to reverse hair loss. Maybe if I used rife and LED's with some exotic homeopathic frequencies derived from plant material encased in ice during the jurasic period, with a topical application of emu oil and propecia, maybe I'll again have curly golden locks (alright : i never had curly golden locks but straight oily hair).
So just because your in remission, does it mean it stops there? What about the fear of relapse? There still going to be a bit of insecurity. So in some ways, once a chronic lymie always a chronic lymie, well maybe not. There is always going to be some experimentation into new things. Especially when we've experienced the difference new things can have, like LED, homeopathy, herbals, rife, and conventional medicine (sometimes).
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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