Topic: Been gone a long time - question for those who work out regularly
dontlikeliver
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posted
Hi all - old and new members,
I've been off abx for 2 years and the last med I was still on, Cortef 5mg, I've been off about 18 months.
I have been stable at 80-90% recovered and happy with that. Been able to live virtually normally.
A month ago, I joined a gym, feeling strong and as if I was 'out of the woods' more or less.
My first few sessions, breaking in slow with resistance/anarobic/weights only for about 50 minutes and then about 10 minutes just brisk walking on treadmill. All was well.
Then - about 10 days ago - did one hour of resistance/weight machines, slowly, but at a slightly increased weight and one extra set of reps each -- I felt good enough for it.
Within a couple of hours, I felt I was coming down with a flu. Chills, flushed face, extremely tired, sneezing, and just wanted to go to bed. Thought I had a bug. The next couple of days it just got worse and I was so physically fatigued and achy BUT no flu symptoms otherwise apart from chills (no cough, etc).
Five days passed and those symptoms had subsided, but I figured I'd give it 2 more days before going bck to the gym.
So, after 7 days I went back and did only 20 minutes of resistance work at less reps and lower weight and 10 minutes on treadmill at normal walking speed. Figured that would be 'safe'.
One day later, I start with the chills and fatigue again and muscle fatigue. Also sneezing again and feeling of a headcold almost - and just about half a degree warmer than my normal - at which I seem to get chills.
So, does anyone have any experience or insight into something like this? Is the exercise making me relapse?
Despite feeling good for the beter part of 2 years before joining the gym and thinking I was now "normal" almost - was I wrong?
Dr. B and Dr H (my LLMD) have always said exercise is a must and now that I'm putting special time aside for that - it makes me sick again? I don't understand and am scared to go to the gym. This seems wrong as I was feeling strong enough to join and figured I would be fine, but no..... same old problem I had more than a decade ago at gym....... exercise followed by feeling flu like and weak for days which at that time (in the 90s') turned out to be YEARS because I kept pushing through at the gym despite those post-exercise symptoms and it is what killed the next decade for me. It brought out my Lyme bigtime.
Back then it was the same symptoms, like flu, but actual "flu" sx limited to sneezing, feeling "inflamed" all over with a fuzzy head and muscle fatigue but not true flu.
Any tips appreciated on how to proceed with this because I want to go to the gym but the thought of it resulting in another decade of illness as the last time I pushed myself at the gym did, terrifies me.
DLL
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Sammi
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DLL, I am sorry you have experienced this.
I know that exercise can increase oxygen levels and raise body temp which are two things the Lyme bacteria does not like.
I have exercised throughout my treatment and feel it is beneficial. But there are days when I cannot do as much as I would like.
Maybe you should call your doctor to see what he thinks, since these are Lyme symptoms you have experienced in the past. Do you think it could be adrenal related?
I hope you can figure out what is going on.
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lymeinhell
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Could you possibly be having an allergic reaction to something at the gym? Are you using the same gym as you did years ago? If the gym has a pool or sauna, are they vented appropriately? Any mold growing anywhere?
Or perhaps you're detoxing because of the exercise? I know the first time I got a body wrap to detox, I went through a flu like experience the next day or so.
Just some thoughts.
-------------------- Julie _ _ ___ _ _ lymeinhell
Blessed are those who expect nothing, for they shall not be disappointed. Posts: 2258 | From a better place than I was 11 yrs ago | Registered: Sep 2003
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posted
sicne my illness i am a regular at the gym...still being treated and ahve worked my way up to 30 mins of weight and 25 of running...never ever had a recation like what yo uare talking about...at worse i would pay for two days with fatigue whcih usually starts the next morning.
But Julie could be onto something...if yoru gym is like mine all the equipment is sparyed after each use...perhaps you are having a reaction to that.
Try another gym or work out at home and see if you make sense of this.
Dave
-------------------- On my journey to wellness - One day at a time. Posts: 989 | From NJ | Registered: Sep 2008
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Why don't you contact your LLMD to share these observations with him?
Also, I was wondering, if these sx mean some sort of herx reaction, shouldn't they lower or decrease in intensity down the road if you were to keep exerciseing?
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cantgiveupyet
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DLL- I was just thinking of you a few weeks ago...wondering how you have been doing. Funny how that works today see a post from you.
Do you feel OK, when you dont work out?
I agree with the poster that suggested trying to work out at home if you can to see if you get the same reaction. I do wonder about mold being an issue as well.
I would also contact your LLMD- they might have a better answer... good to see you have been doing well.
-------------------- "Say it straight simple and with a smile."
"Thus the task is, not so much to see what no one has seen yet, But to think what nobody has thought yet, About what everybody sees."
-Schopenhauer
pos babs, bart, igenex WB igm/igg Posts: 3156 | From Lyme limbo | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I am a Pilates instructor and when I started going through training to become an instructor I would experience fatigue in the afternoon.
The exercise reaches various muscles that may not have been worked in a while. Toxins, dormant bacteria, etc. may be in those muscles and are released when you stir things up.
Give yourself time and take it slowly. Don't overdo it, but I think it's a good thing to start stirring it up some.
I'm working out as much as before and no longer get the afternoon fatigue. I used coffee enemas to help with the detox. Also turmeric to help with the inflammation.
This was my experience in remission. According to ART testing, Lyme & co was in remission, so I think most of it was either toxins or bacteria that my immune system was able to handle.
I would not overdo it, but I would keep exercising.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Vermont_Lymie
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Almost sounds like a possible allergy to something in your gym.
Can you try the same workout at home or another location, and see if you develop the same symptoms? Some gyms are full of sprayed cleaners that can cause sensitivities.
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dontlikeliver
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Thanks for your replies!
Ok, from all of them combined, I think that yes, perhaps it is the raised oxygen levels and body temp that is killing off something - even though I feel "FINE" mostly all the time when I am not exercising/until I joined the gym.
Now, what happens is, Exercise I get chills within hours, flushed and nightsweats (always have had nightsweats since 1991 and no amount of anti-babs meds changed that) but they are much worse after the exercise, like drenched.
The pattern seems to be exercise, followed by next day starting to feel pretty fluey, day two VERY fluey and day 3 starting to recover again.
So, I think what I should do is continue but as I did last week, make sure I've gone past the recovery plus a day or two and then go VERY VERY slow even if the buildup takes MONTHS in mini-increments.
I have booked a phone consult with my LLMD whom I'd ironically just written recently to say that I haven't been in touch for almost a year because I've been FINE! I do not want to go back on more abx or any other meds, but I have also considered that it feels like an adrenal burnout...meaning, it's similar to the last remaining symptom I had at the end of my treatment, which finally almost completely went after I took Cortef for about a year +.
I will update, if there's anything to update on and thanks all for your input.
DLL
Lymeblue : Been meaning to call you just to shoot the breeze.
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djf2005
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Try lighter, shorter sessions. Approach it like any other Lyme treatment, s-l-o-w-l-y.
I know when I was able to workout before this last relapse, it was only about 15/day of free weights, etc with some swimming.
I have never been able to tolerate aerobics as I get light headed, flu-like, etc as you describe. Lyme defenitley does not like o2.
My goal for January was to at least sign back up at my gym and then begin swimming when able, if only 1 lap to start. This is how I began to re- condition myself last time and increased my laps until I was doing 50-100 laps per exercise. This took almost 4 months.
Being this sick and having so many symptoms just means we have to approach things differently, with caution, and more resolve than the average person.
Good luck, less initially = more later as you will be able to continue and escalate your program as tolerated.
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
Bugg
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posted
Dont' know if this helps but I was asking my physical therapist yesterday if she thought I would ever be able to run again....She said that one thing that people with chronic illness have to realize is that exercise DEFINITELY IMPACTS THE IMMUNE SYSTEM...She works on a lot of professional athletes...She says she has seen them "get ill" when they start back with their training too quickly because their immune systems can't handle it....
I strongly believe many lyme patients have immune system dysregulation that is not well understood by medicine (yet)...As such, exercise should be handled carefully....Work your way into it....You may be "kicking up" your immune system, causing it to attack the residual or (what it deems to be residual spirochetes) in your body....I would recommend a slow and steady build-up....
My PT does joint mobilization and I do light weights on upper and lower body....Lots and lots of stretching with rubber bands....and 5 minutes of the elypitical.....It's definitely helped...When I first started, I could barely bend over and move my hands below my knees due to stiffness....Now, I can almost touch my toes....
Keep going!!!!! Also, you may want to look into an anti-inflammatory like Zyflamend or tumeric or Longvida curcumin.....
Good luck to you....
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dontlikeliver
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Yes, I think that is the right thing that I need to do. Step back to a ridiculously light and short workout and maybe even just once every 5-7 days. And stop before I even start to feel winded.
In the past - in the 90's when I was able to work out - I'd jump right into it at full force doing almost daily 90 minute workouts. I never could figure out back then why after a few weeks I would get sick and the last time, 1998, I was a gym member I had to quit and my symptoms just never went after that until about 2 years ago after years of abx. Back then though I had no name, other than CFS for my ailment.
It seems to be such a fine line with exercising, even for normal people then I guess (those who have not been and who are not chronically ill) between STRENGTHENING the immune system, to WEAKENING it and only finding out by trial and error and praying that even when it feels like it's not been too strenuous that it doesn't result in a long-lasting downward spiral healthwise.
Dr. B said it was more important to make the workout last 1 hour and go slow, than less and go 'hard at it'.... so this is what I had in mind, but obviously my idea of slow may not be slow enough. I'll have to go into the gym lifting cotton balls; everyone will think I'm a freak!!
Swimming I both don't like to do and always makes me worse and Dr. B said that was because of the low water temp. (not sure why?).
I don't want to give up...........and I don't want to get sick again, ever, like the journey I had from 1998 to 2007-ish.
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djf2005
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Heated pools are great. Thats what I use.
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
dontlikeliver
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posted
Might try that too, though the only one in my (fairly rural) area is only about 10'x10'...tiny.
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Bugg
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You may find the following excerpt from American Fitness interesting:
What Causes DOMS?
Experts generally agree soreness felt one to two days after a workout is partially caused by structural damage to muscle fibers. W. Stauber, M.D., and colleagues used a high-powered microscope to analyze muscle fibers after an intense workout. It was clear that cell membranes ruptured and other structural components were disrupted. However, Clarkson reports the damage to muscle fibers is relatively small, with less than 5% of the tissue affected. Damage is not limited to one area, but occurs throughout the muscle fiber.
Microscopic muscle damage causes an inflammatory response. This process contributes to muscle soreness in two ways. The accumulation of fluid (swelling) causes pressure. Also, white blood cells, which serve as a defense system in the body, enter muscle fibers and secrete chemicals that activate pain receptors (Byrnes and Clarkson, 1986; Smith, 1991).
Although the causes of DOMS are not fully understood, scientists have eliminated some factors once thought to cause muscle soreness. It was long believed lactic acid and muscle spasms caused DOMS. They do not. Lactic acid dissipates from muscle shortly after exercise and is not present when muscle soreness develops. Electromyography (EMG) has shown muscles are not in spasm when they are sore.
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Tincup
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map1131
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Hey, dontlike I remember you. I do heated pools too at the YMCA. I'm in an arthritic class and after one year I've worked myself up to 3-1 hr classes a week.
This has done so much for me phyically and mentally.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6478 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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dontlikeliver
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Thank you, thank you, thank you.
The DMOS thing seems to make sense, because that's what I (we, many of us) feel - INFLAMED - in a delayed way that makes us feel sick, well at least me with the whole flu-like sx thing, for days afterwards. As if the body has to recover from some great ordeal.
Hey Tincup.......yep, I've been a bit elusive I guess, but I was doing so well for so long I didn't want to keep reminding myself of the nightmare I'd been in....as a result purposely have stayed away from "Lyme-stuff".
Going off on a tangent here a bit - but slightly related - do any of you get chills or a bit flu-like if you've been crying? I recently realized this too.....consistently connected it to having been crying. Why? Does that also cause some inflammatory response?
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canefan17
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dontlike,
You and I sound very similar.
Before coming down with Lyme I was hitting the gym 3 or 4 times a week. I was bulking (eating tons of foods... looking back omg what was I doing)
I continued to wear down my body... but was taught that going to failure was the only way to train.
Unfortunately I then became very sick and have learned what failure really means.
Exercise, like you said you were doing, even for 50 minutes can wear your body out. It sounds to me like your immune system was weakening and you began to have stuff flare-up again.
If it were me... I'd jump on some herbs, garlic, maybe even a round of abx's for a month.
My LLMD treats himself this way all the time. if you feel ANYTHING creeping up... there is no reason not to do a little maintenance treatment.
Take 2-3 minutes between sets and focus on working one muscle group at a time. Riding the bike for 10 minutes shouldn't hurt you... but i wouldn't do anymore than that.
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dontlikeliver
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Hi Canefan,
When you say work ONE muscle group at a time, do you mean only one muscle group that day/session, such as arms only one day, and legs a few days later, etc?
I have made an appt with my LLMD (Dr H) for Feb 9th, so I will ask if I should do a few weeks abx then, though I would REALLY like to avoid that, if possible. Especially, as I developed adverse reactions to so many by the time I'd finished my treatment in 2008. I'm very limited in what I can take.
What do you mean by that you were taught that "going to failure was the only way to train"? Is there some train of thought out there that one should train till you get sick, as if it is a normal and 'good' thing?
Is it better then to try perhaps 10 minutes of weights on only arms one day, legs the next day, abs the following, etc and maybe 10 minutes on treadmill or bike, rather than 50 minutes twice a week? Would the benefits be the same and would any results be seen from such short bursts?
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canefan17
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Train to failure simply means doing a lift for as many reps as it takes to get you to "failure"... where you can't do anymore.
A lot of athletes and bodybuilders will do low reps/heavy weights and train to failure.
This is exhausting on the Central Nervous System and if you aren't healthy enough or on steroids... your body simply won't recover from those strenuous exercises.
What I meant by one body part at a time is... don't superset your exercises. Which simply means don't go from doing the row machine... then running right over to the dumbbell rack and doing bicep curls. That's a superset.
(It doesn't sound like you were doing this)
One muscle group at a time might be something like this..
Warm-up 5 minutes on bike jumping jacks 3 sets 30 (lymphatic drainage!) stretch
Monday Chest and Legs (Pushups, Bench press, Body weight Squats, Lunges)
Wednesday Back and Abs (Rows, Lat Pulldowns, Pullups(with assistance), Ab workout)
^^ just choose 1 or 2 exercise for each muscle... I'm just giving you ideas.
Friday Shoulders and Legs (Shoulder press, military press, Squats, Lunges, side shuffles w/ elastic band (for hips/groin), deadlifts (own body weight or light light weight)
^^^ You hit every muscle group with doing simple core exercises.
I wouldn't worry too much about hitting small muscle groups (bi's triceps, calves)... these muscles get plenty of indirect work from the core lifts. You're wasting time and energy focusing on them.
Take 2-3 minutes between each set and aim for 8-12 reps for 2-3 sets per group.
dontlikeliver
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posted
OK, thanks for the ideas...that does help.
I'm going to go right down to 8 reps x 2 and only do half the equipment I've been doing each time and then finish off with 10 minutes on stepper or treadmill and see if I get sick from that small amount. (The people at the gym are going to wonder why I bother going!).
I was doing 15 reps x 2 and sometimes 3 sets. The session before the last one, I did do 15 reps x 3 and I did feel like I was perhaps really straining to do that but felt "I can do it!" so pushed on. Mistake. So, even though this very last session which was on Monday (5 days ago) I backed down to 15 x 2 sets and I still got sick.
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canefan17
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Yep- you'll figure it out soon.
The hardest thing for me as well is not "pushing through it" even though I know i can.
I was raised in sports (father played college baseball, I played basketball, coached college basketball and did personal training on the side) ... and it was all about going to the limit. Push it to the limit.
And although that has it's time and place... us Lymies have to Train Smart rather than Train Hard. It's MUCH harder to train smart than it is to train hard. Anybody can go the extra mile... anybody can strain and push through something... find the extra adrenalin rush and do another set.
It's knowing when to stop and slow down that takes complete mental and physical focus.
Learn to listen to your body when it doesn't want to go.
Occasionally I'll have days I'm supposed to workout... but if my body is telling me "not today"... then we don't workout lol
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dontlikeliver
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Thanks Canefan.
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quote:Originally posted by Bugg: You may find the following excerpt from American Fitness interesting:
What Causes DOMS?
Experts generally agree soreness felt one to two days after a workout is partially caused by structural damage to muscle fibers. W. Stauber, M.D., and colleagues used a high-powered microscope to analyze muscle fibers after an intense workout. It was clear that cell membranes ruptured and other structural components were disrupted. However, Clarkson reports the damage to muscle fibers is relatively small, with less than 5% of the tissue affected. Damage is not limited to one area, but occurs throughout the muscle fiber.
Microscopic muscle damage causes an inflammatory response. This process contributes to muscle soreness in two ways. The accumulation of fluid (swelling) causes pressure. Also, white blood cells, which serve as a defense system in the body, enter muscle fibers and secrete chemicals that activate pain receptors (Byrnes and Clarkson, 1986; Smith, 1991).
Although the causes of DOMS are not fully understood, scientists have eliminated some factors once thought to cause muscle soreness. It was long believed lactic acid and muscle spasms caused DOMS. They do not. Lactic acid dissipates from muscle shortly after exercise and is not present when muscle soreness develops. Electromyography (EMG) has shown muscles are not in spasm when they are sore.
That is very interesting----sounds like the whole process may be therapuetic because it gets the immune system active in muscles.
We knoe BB likes to hide out in muscle tissue. Maybe this "sore muscle" & fatigue process leads to healing.
Or maybe the OP just picked up a virus from the gym---happens all the time.
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djf2005
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Well, it's been 8 months since my relapse and today was the first day since then I was able to drive myself back to my old gym and swim a few laps.
I know that doesn't sound like much to some of you, yet I also know that sounds like quite a feat to others.
I am grateful to be able to do this, albeit very difficult (I will be on the couch for the remainder of the day very fatigued, etc).
Just wanted to encourage those of you that don't see much hope in ever getting back in shape or being able to do normal activity again, it can be done. I am fighting to regain something again.
I am going to start slow, slow, slow, and move up from there.
Most likely I won't even be able to go more than 1-3x week to begin, but it's a start.
Best
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
Derek, good for you! That's quite an accomplishment!
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Tincup
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DLL said.. "Hey Tincup.......yep, I've been a bit elusive I guess, but I was doing so well for so long I didn't want to keep reminding myself of the nightmare I'd been in....as a result purposely have stayed away from "Lyme-stuff".
My happiness comes from seeing all of you get the heck out of here... assuming of course you are better!
Glad you had a slice of the pie and could enjoy a non-Lyme filled life for a while.
Always my best to you and please know you'll always be in my heart!
Part of my illness has been flu like symtoms weakness and lightheadedness and the feeling of the ground moving or I will possibly pass out, but I have never passed out.
A tilt table test confirmed i have NMH(Neurally mediated Hypotension)which is an unexplained drop in Blood Pressure. NMH is associated with many CFS patients and Lyme Disease.
One important symptom of it is intolerance to excercise or excertion. SOme people become completely wiped out for up to 72 hours after a workout session.
I was a gym rat before I got Lyme and have since been unable to weight train. My body and mind have suffered greatly. i have put on alot of weight
I have no idea if this remotely applies to you but may be something to consider. Apparently the Lyme affects the Vaso vagal nerve and causes this condition. It is my WORST symptom. Constantly weak and feeling like I'm floating around and could fall at any moment.
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canefan17
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drewby,
Address your adrenals and thyroid.
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Shosty
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posted
I think that a glandular explanation seems most probable. Adrenal or thyroid perhaps, as someone said above (and DLL also suggested).
The vaso-vagal nerve thing is also a possiblity, and exercise might trigger that.
I wonder if you have any spinal issues, that exercise could set off. I have some narrowing of my spinal canal in the cervical area, and get chills and fluishness with exercise. Some of the motions, or the weight, in Y exercises or even PT, can further narrow the canal or the vertebral opening, and also, the muscle response can put pressure on the arteries that lead to the brain stem, which can cause chills and fluishness.
You could have an MRI, and you could also visit a good chiropractor to check out your spine.
Check out cervical vertigo, and cervical myelopathy, maybe...
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dontlikeliver
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Interesting, Shosty.
I didn't know there are other possibilities, other than infection/chronic infection or immune/adrenal dysfunction that can cause the chills and flushes.
I haven't had NMH issues or vasovagal issues since I finished the Cortef treatment......until this last couple of weeks now with major stress and the gym sessions.
Haven't been to the gym now for about 9-10 days and still have chills, fatigue and horrible nightsweats. Get heart skips as soon as I raise my arms above shoulder level; all old stuff I haven't had since the end of using Cortef and abx.
Even if I wanted to go to the gym right now, I just feel too weak and 'malaised' - not sick as long as I don't do anything physical.
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dontlikeliver
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Update:
Talked to Dr H. Back on Ceftin and Cortef for hopefully only a month or so. He thinks it's adrenals (resulting in lowered immune system and allowing Lyme flare). Starting the Ceftin tomorrow, already started Cortef.
He said no gym apart from walking for a month.
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Sammi
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It is good that you called the doctor and that you have a plan. I hope things turn around soon. Good luck!
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dontlikeliver
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Thanks Sammi.
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posted
Prior to getting lyme I was (and hope to be again) a competitve runner and triathlete.
For me exercise is critical for my physical and psychological well being.
Some days I can only muster 30 minutes on my computrainer and other days a shower is about it. Then some days I am good enough to run 5 miles..
I have learned that the 50% rule works for me and keeps me out of that post-exercise fatigue that can last for days.
I figure what my body FEELS like it can do (not what I would like to do..) and then do 50% of that. I take that approach with both intensity and duration of my workout.
Doing this allows energy for my recovery.
When I was/am in a bad herx I may not do anything but stretch for a few weeks.
Even stretching keeps me connected to my athletic self and is enough when nothing else is possible.
Like you I get the flu like symptoms with fatigue when I over do it with working out...LAst time I over did it it took about 3 weeks to come back to life. I was not following my own 50% rule and bottomed out.
For now enjoy your walks... TG
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