Topic: At what temperature do Lyme spirochetes die?
Hoosiers51
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posted
Anyone know?
I have been reading about milk, and it seems to me everything you can buy at the grocery store, including the organic brands, are full of things I don't want in my milk.
Organic milk is ultra-pasteurized in such a way that it doesn't even require refrigeration! They just refrigerate it so as not to freak people out.
I am worried about the link between autoimmune disease and pasteurized milk. Pasteurized milk doesn't contain any living bacteria, but it contains dead bacteria. Your immune system could respond to those dead bacteria. Thus starts an unhealthy series of immune events.
So anyways....I would love to start drinking raw milk from a farm, but the only thing I'm afraid of is the possibility of Lyme in the milk. If it can go through human breastmilk, could it be in cow's milk?
So I'd like to buy raw milk that comes from well-cared for cows, directly from a farmer, and then heat it at home to kill the germs. On the stovetop, with a thermometer in the milk.
So I'm just wondering at what temp the spirochetes will die? Anyone?
Sigh. I might not go through with this, but it's an idea. I just don't like the direction commercial milk is going.
Thanks.
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Keebler
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- Ticks, and the spirochetes in them, have survived forest fires. Some have been post toasties but others survive by burrowing into lichen or nooks in a tree. Whether they get direct flame or not, even if able to burrow a bit, it is still VERY hot.
I don't have the link to articles I've read about this, but it's actually quite amazing that they can survive and then be caught, examined and found to still contain infection. -
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canefan17
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Hoosiers,
Very interesting topic.
When i got sick with Lyme I was drinking half gallon of milk a day (sports related diet)
I regret it more than anything in the world *shakes head*
I was also eating a lot of tuna. Everyday for awhile.
Boy looking back i wish I had somebody to stop me. I do believe I wouldn't be dealing with Lyme if I avoided milk, tuna, and all the fast food i was eating.
To answer your question I think some have said 103-104 will do it.
My LLMD said when I get in my hotub at 104 degrees that i will definitely agitate and kill spirochetes.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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Keebler
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- According to several articles, I've seen, a hot tub at 104 will not kill spirochetes and can put a lyme patient at risk of heart attack. That is one reason why low heat FIR saunas are recommended rather than the hotter heat of regular saunas.
Getting warm may help increase circulation, hence, oxygen is increased and that can help to attack infection but WARM is fine to get oxygen circulating. By all accounts I've seen, it is impossible to SAFELY get hot enough for long enough to directly kill spirochetes all through our bodies - especially in our brains and hearts.
They will burrow even deeper and go into cyst form to further protect themselves and then our job can get even harder.
Cass A
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Fahrenheit 451.
LOL!
Love,
Cass A
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onbam
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posted
Keebler-- do you think you could find any of the articles about either subject? I've always heard that cooking food will kill any Bb that may be in it. How do they know that the ticks weren't infected post-forest-fire? Do we actually know how hot the ticks get when they're burrowing?
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nefferdun
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I read somewhere that there was a treatment used of raising the body temperature to 106 degrees F to kill the spirochetes. Unfortunately it also killed some of the patients.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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onbam
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Even in that case, it seems like fire would certainly kill it. I mean--doesn't anthrax get killed at 318 F?
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posted
i dont understand going through all this to drink milk. why not just give up milk?
whats wrong with tuna? toxins?
-------------------- sick since 9-09 igg, 18,23,41 reactive igm, 41 reactive Posts: 436 | From Kansas City | Registered: Jan 2010
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Hoosiers51
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Yeah, I might just give milk up. It is just a good way to get minerals, etc. I like to get things like calcium and magnesium from animal sources as well as plant.
I guess there's always bone broth.
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Pinelady
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I know a fella who was cured at 106. While in 3rd. month of treatment. He did almost die.
Caused from what I believe was IV antibiotics and not enough detox protection.
He was not treated by a LLMD.
I have thought about this a lot. And possibilities of heat killing the keets.
And doing my own milk thing. I would love to make my own mozzarella.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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gwb
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quote:Originally posted by JunkYardWily: whats wrong with tuna? toxins?
Mercury. Do a google search Tuna + Mercury. Not good.
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nenet
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I've been meaning to look this up for ages. It's a complicated question to answer, like the organism itself. Sorry for the longish post, please bear with me.
What do we have when a Lyme spirochete is heated past its comfortable temperature? Does it turn to cyst form and survive even higher temps than if it remained in spirochete form? Unfortunately, a lot of research still does not seem to take cyst and other forms into account when looking at things like this.
Also, there are different phrases in the literature referring to using heat to kill. In some contexts you find heat used to just "deactivate" Lyme spirochetes, rather than kill.
None of the references I have found so far explicitly state that the organism is dead with these treatments, at a particular cut-off temperature. I think a textbook entry on the various Lyme-causing species is our best bet for finding this info.
1. "Heat-killed": Borrelia burgdorferi in the Central Nervous System: experimental and Clinical Evidence for Early Invasion - excerpt here http://www.jstor.org/pss/30129579 :
..."Heat-killed spirochetes were obtained by placing resuspended spirochetes into a water bath at 560C [1040 degrees F] for 60 min."
2. "Heat-inactivated": An article from W Burgdorfer et al: Antibody to a 39-kilodalton Borrelia burgdorferi antigen (P39) as a marker for infection in experimentally and naturally inoculated animals.http://jcm.asm.org/cgi/content/abstract/29/2/236 :
"Mice were inoculated with the same number of heat-inactivated (56�C for 30 min) spirochetes"
3. "Heat-killed": In this instance, it appears that these temps only caused spirochetes to be unable to grow in BSK culture medium. It says nothing about in vivo abilities, or about them being "dead."
Lyme spirochetes thrive MUCH easier in human host than they do in culture, so that makes a big difference as well:
"Spirochetes were used live or were heat killed by immersion in a 65�C water bath for 40 min, which renders the spirochetes incapable of growth in BSK-S..."
4. "Sonicated": Not sure what this is exactly, if it kills the Lyme or suspends it. or something else entirely. But it might be good info to have on hand. Note at what extremely cold temperature the spirochetes appear to have remained viable!
From: Acylated Cholesteryl Galactoside as a Novel Immunogenic Motif in Borrelia burgdorferi Sensu Stricto
"Cultivation of B. burgdorferi Sensu Stricto B31--Glycerol stocks of Borrelia burgdorferi sensu stricto B31 stored at -80 �C [negative 112 degrees F!!]...
Preparation of Sonicates--For preparation of crude Borrelia sonicates, we employed a published protocol developed for cell wall preparation of Streptococcus pneumoniae with some modifications (20).
Dried B. burgdorferi B31 (5 mg) were suspended in 5 ml of 0.05 m sodium acetate and subsequently sonicated four times for 2 min.
The sonicate then was centrifuged for 3 min at 3,000 � g at 4 �C, and the supernatants were harvested and spun for 30 min at 12,000 � g at 4 �C.
The resulting pellet was washed twice with phosphate-buffered saline (PBS) (Invitrogen) and stored at -20 �C."
5. Cold temperature survival: And for grins n giggles, here is an article studying Lyme at blood product storage temps and conditions, and concluding that it survives them quite well:
Survival of Borrelia burgdorferi in blood products
"The organism was shown to survive in RBCs (4� C) and FFP (below -18� C) for 45 days and in PCs (20-24� C) for 6 days. The results of this study do not exclude the possibility of transmission of Lyme disease through blood transfusion."
posted
that was 56 degrees, not 560 (i.e. 104F)
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Keebler
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- I was watching a grilling show today and hamburger is to get either 160 or 180 degrees to kill bacteria - in general. I forget if it was 160 or 180 (and a search would confirm) but, either way, that is sure pretty hot. -
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Pinelady
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If you don't mind I'm going to throw this in after the article of cold survival I find
curious. Gross I know but bear with me. For those that may have missed the study. ============================================== http://digitalcommons.wku.edu/theses/118/
15.7% (8/51) of the total raccoon blood samples examined by PCR were positive for B. burgdorferi, while no opossum blood samples were positive. ============================================ Now I know all of you know what is on the possums menu. What I don't understand is how and why
because of that and the fact they are mammals are they not infected either way. If this is true,
our biggest alli may now be the possum.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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daystar1952
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I've had Lyme since 1989. For three years now I have been drinking raw milk from a certified small dairy farm near me in CT for three years. I am doing better if anything.I also make kefir from it with real kefir grains.
I was told that this process makes the milk more digestible, gives you the good bacteria and the acid formed in the fermentation process also helps to take care of germs. Fresh full cream milk is absolutely delicious.
I have also spoken to a professor/researcher from the University of CT who has had Lyme and specializes in dairy and agricultural issues.
She told me that she would not worry about spirochetes in the milk. Unpasteurized milk ...FROM HEALTHY COWS EATING MOSTLY GRASS....has innate elements which are antibacterial and antiviral.Once pasteurized these elements are destroyed.
This professor also spoke about our digestive enzymes and how their job is to take care of this sort of thing also. I was told that pasteurization is 160 degrees and that Lyme is killed at 190. Lida mattman supposedly found spirochetes in pasteurized milk off the store shelf.
Check out the article I wrote at the link below. It speaks of the health benefits of raw milk
You also might want to check out Dr. Ron's Web Blog at www.drrons.com He is a naturopathic doctor from CT who had Lyme and says that raw milk helped him to recover. His blog is very interesting concerning the diet he uses and recommends to his patients.You can find the blog in the yellow square to the right on his website.
I wrote to him once and asked him if he thought that the natural antibiotic elements in whole raw milk would take care of the spirochetes and this was his opinion....
When we eat all our foods cooked and dead, we lack the enzymes that produce life. Our bodies will make enzymes to digest our food but we overwork our bodies if our whole diet is cooked. The more fresh raw organic foods we eat, the better our immune systems will function and therefore be better able to keep germs like spirochetes under control naturally.
As we know many people are infected with lyme but they are not all sick.Why is this? Probably because their immune systems are functioning better
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I knew someone who almost died from undulent fever she got from "healthy" cows' milk.
ANY cow can be bitten by any tick in any field in the world.
To assume a cow doesn't have Lyme because someone said so, is dangerous.
What do the LLMDs have to say about this?
I'd like to read/hear more about the hypothermia successes.
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Keebler
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- Cows sure get babesiosis. E. Coli can be a huge risk with raw milk, too. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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nefferdun
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Digressing a little bit but still on the topic of heat killing spirochetes. . . . I wonder if the procedure thermage which is used to heat up collagen, which produced a face lift, would kill the bacteria. It loves to be in the collagen which is why our eyes are such a mess. If it worked we could all look younger at the same time!
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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"Sonicated" refers to breaking apart the bacteria with the ultrasound. No temperature requirement there.
Posts: 98 | From Maine | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
Lyme spirochetes are killed at 106*F, but it doesn't happen quickly at that temperature....it takes about 24 hrs. So there really isn't any way of taking them out with a 1 hr sauna at 140*. Your skin temp could get hot enough to take out the keets that are there, but your core temp would probably not even get above 100* at most.
I wouldn't touch raw milk myself....virtually 100% of ALL animals are infected with some form of parasite, as well as 2/3rd's of the world's population. Do you really think that a vet is going to be able to find Bb, Bart, or Babesia in a (seemingly healthy) cow by doing an occasional routine checkup? It's very unlikely that they would....just like it's often missed in people that are positive.
There's no way that a keet is going to survive pasteurization....esp ultra. I wouldn't accept that Bb was found in properly processed milk unless there were a few different (reputable) sources that could verify it as fact.
Ticks can survive in a forest or grass fire, but remember that they are probably going to be in the ground, which is way cooler than topside. Heat rises, so temps do not get any where near what they do above ground. And usually the fire passes quickly over an area, so the temperature would not be sustained for more than a minute or two.
Milk shouldn't be a problem as long as you get organic and don't drink a lot of it. That is, unless you are allergic to it. You can buy orgainic past milk at Trader Joe's that has not been "Ultra Past"
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treepatrol
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When a spirochete gets hit with heat it goes into cyst or blebs or coccoid form using its heat shock protiens.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I don't think that keets can change quickly enough into cyst form in order to survive pasteurization, but it probably is possibly that the cyst form could be in some milk from the beginning.
It should also be possible that the cysts are in animal flesh as well before it is cooked. So if the cysts really can survive 160* F for 15 min to an hour, then there is always the possibility of getting infected by consuming any animal source of food.
Is there really any conclusive testing that has proven for a fact that lyme cysts can survive 160* for sustained periods? Or is that info just some so called experts opinion that has been passed around?
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sixgoofykids
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I get milk at Whole Foods from Snowville Creamery here in Ohio. It's lightly pasteurized for 20 seconds at less than 170 degrees. I am concerned myself with raw milk, so thought this was a good compromise.
They don't have it in Indiana, but perhaps you could contact the company and see if they know of a similar company in Indiana. They have a website.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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massman
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posted
Processed milk ? The processing greatly decreases your ability to get any type of nutrition from it.
Raw ? Mmmm Mmmm gooooood ! But the keeters ? Will strong stomach acid chew them up ? Any thoughts, opinions, randomized double blind placebo yak yak yak studies ?
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sixgoofykids
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Snowville dairy minimally processes .... it's not homogenized and lightly pasteurized. 170 degrees for 20 seconds is irrelevant since I heat it to 170 for my lattes anyway! :-D It's milk like I remember the milkman bringing to the door when I was a kid! The kind that if you don't shake it, it's gross.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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Pinelady
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Me too Massman. I want to see the studies. Has it been done with syphilis? My daughter drank home
lightly pasturized for 7 years. She was rarely sick. If I would get it she would rather have it.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Hoosiers51
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Thank you for the comments so far.
Six, that might be a good compromise for me. I am moving soon, so perhaps in my new state I'll be able to find milk like that.
Or, perhaps I can just heat it to 170 for 20 seconds on my own. I would rather the farm do it though.
Good question from Massman about if stomach acid will kill the ketes?
Does anyone know what ph is required to kill spirochetes?
LymeMD posted on his blog that he was able to find bb in a patient's stomach lining. They did a biopsy or something. LymeMD was theorizing that bb likes an acidic environment.
But I would think a certain ph, low enough (aka acidic enough) might kill them? Hmmm.
Like maybe this woman did not have a very acidic stomach. However, saying that is like playing a guessing game.
I would be interested in that organic milk from Trader Joe's that is not Ultra pasteurized, but we don't have a Trader Joe's here or where I'm moving.
I just can't think that Ultra pasteurized milk is even still "milk." They have to add things to it to take away a "burnt" taste that the ultra high temps create. And like I said, I heard refrigeration is not even necessary. To me that is too far of a departure from the real deal to make it appetizing. I would never cook my meat that hot, so why my milk? Sigh.
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nenet
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Published in Volume 107, Issue 6 (March 15,2001) J. Clin. Invest. 107(6): 651-656 (2001). doi:10.1172/JCI12484. Copyright � 2001, American Society for Clinical Investigation
quote:In vitro cultivation of B. burgdorferi at various temperatures demonstrates that the spirochete replicates most quickly at 37�C. An increase in temperature to 39�C retards growth significantly, while a 24 hour exposure at 41�C kills all spirochetes in the culture. Therefore, the optimal growth temperature of B. burgdorferi is only 4�C below the upper lethal limit. The low tolerance of spirochetes for high temperatures is well known and may explain in part the restricted distribution of B. burgdorferi to temperate latitudes and its absence in the tropics, where infected ticks may be exposed to high temperatures detrimental to spirochete survival.
37�C = 98.6�F 39�C = 102.2�F 40�C = 104.0�F
quote:Hyperthermia at or above about 40 �C (104 �F) is a life-threatening medical emergency and requires immediate treatment. Common symptoms include headache, confusion, and fatigue.
The main function of Bb heat shock proteins is to handle the transition from tick to mammal.
Thank you for your interesting post, Chuck. I think you may have meant to give the conversion for 41�C in your list, as stated in the article.
41�C = 105.8�F
Unfortunately still, this paper makes no mention of other forms of Lyme.
If one were to watch real-time video of spirochetes in vitro being washed with a penicillin solution, they immediately resort to cyst form. It appears the process takes only about 1 to 2 seconds. Then there are bleb, granule, biofilm, and other forms.
To the eye not looking for other forms, there are no viable spirochetes left, which says nothing about viable *Lyme* being left.
Not to mention that the same temperatures in a human would likely not have the same "deleterious" effect, since Lyme is notoriously picky about its in vitro environment, and always thrives and survives best in a human host.
All of these reasons make it very difficult to apply this information to the purposes of our question - food safety, and personal treatment protocols/human infection.
It really can only apply to the laboratory in vitro setting, and within the narrow constraints of looking for Bb spirochetes, under the false assumption that they are the only viable form of the disease.
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