posted
To those of you who are trying the Salt and Vitamin C approach. Please be careful you guys don't accidentally kill yourselves by throwing off your body's salt/water balance and throwing your electrolytes dangerously out of whack!
I am posting this because a Lymie friend of mine had been trying this salt/VitC protocol against his LLMD's advice and ended up in the ER on Friday night with a very dangerous salt/water imbalance. The imbalance screwed up his heart function for quite some time. He just got out of the hospital this morning, and was told to never do that approach again. Doctors said he was lucky that he did not pass away from it! Everyone has a different metabolism and tolerance and you don't want to find out this way! It was scary!!!
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posted
I have to agree with WC here. Excess Sodium can be very dangerous. Sea salt has 2350 mg of sodium in a tsp. The recommendation for Sodium is 2400 mg daily. Most Americans consume over 5000 mg of sodium from diet alone. Too much sodium can cause problems with fluid retention, electrolytes, heart and kidney problems, strokes, gastric cancer, high blood pressure and osteoporosis. Anyone consuming excess sodium should be monitored by a health professional. Dr. OZ mentioned that decreasing salt 1/2 tsp daily saves 100,000 lives/year.
-------------------- Sherlock Posts: 31 | From PA | Registered: Jan 2009
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Up
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Thanks, WC.
Posts: 819 | From East Coast | Registered: Apr 2009
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glm1111
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posted
WC,
You said he had a salt/water imbalance. Isn't it possible that he was not drinking ENOUGH water? Most probable scenario.
It has been posted many times when doing this protocol to drink plenty of water.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Potassium and salt are opposites. Increasing salt lowers potassium and increasing potassium lowers salt. If you go to far one way can be deadly. It's hard on the kidneys too. I'd love to be able to do this protocol but I'm afraid to.
Posts: 383 | From Ar | Registered: May 2007
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Yeah, I don't have his lab reports, and I was not with him when it happened, his sister called me the next morning. He was drinking plenty of water. He told me that he was feeling weak, and tired since waking up on Friday and in the days before, (and he figured it was a herx) and that his heart was fine one minute and then he said he felt dizzy and cold sweats and then electric shocks and panic. Luckily he was not home alone because the paramedics said he had seizures. They had him on a ton of IV water but it had to be administered very slowly to correct the electrolyte imbalance or they said he could go into shock again. They were worried about brain swelling. Its been 3 days and he's still totally out of it.
I dont know what the blood potassium/sodium levels were, but the treatment they gave him was for hypernatremia which is one of the first things you learn in med school that is dangerous to mess with your electrolytes! Please don't try this home therapy!!
Does anyone know a Salt/C message group online that you can post this warning to?
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glm1111
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posted
If you google hypernatremia it is not caused by an excess of salt, but rather a deficit of water which caused him to be dehydrated.
Maybe he thought he was drinking enough, but obviously that was not the case.
If you talk to the lymestrategies group, they will probably tell you the same thing. This is the message group that does salt/c.
Also, if he was walking around in the heat it could have also contribted. I suspect there is some missing info that we don't have.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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ping
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posted
quote:Originally posted by WildCondor: I dont know what the blood potassium/sodium levels were, but the treatment they gave him was for hypernatremia which is one of the first things you learn in med school that is dangerous to mess with your electrolytes! Please don't try this home therapy!!
WC, dangerous to MESS with your electrolytes? I know you're smart and in med school, but have to wonder if this is the soon-to-be-medgrad-new-speak?
I wouldn't want to try the Salt/C myself and agree that excesses are dangerous, but I find electrolyte replacement extremely valuable.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
i have high blood pressure and would never, ever try this.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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joalo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
Thanks WC!!!
I always thought salt/C sounded dangerous.
Everything in moderation...
-------------------- Sick since January 1985. Misdiagnosed for 20 years. Tested CDC positive October 2005. Treating since April 2006. Posts: 3228 | From Somewhere west of the Mississippi | Registered: Aug 2007
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Any links yet?
I found a yahoo group and a few sites that I emailed. Hopefully they will post the warnings.
Ping...that is me trying to be non-technical so people can understand. Messing with electrolytes is what the Salt/C does. Electrolyte supplementation, when not in excess is usually fine when needed. Things like gatorade, etc. have far too much sugar though.
Well, if anyone has links or know people who are using Salt/C please let them know. Thanks.
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glm1111
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posted
WC,
Again I will repeat what I posted above. Hypernatremia (dehydration) is caused by not drinking enough water.
If your in med school you should know this. Stop turning this into such a drama especially when all the facts of what other meds this person was ingesting or what other factors existed that caused him to lose fluid and become dehydrated.
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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canefan17
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posted
I agree with glm.
This looks much worse than it is.
Every protocol(if not done properly) can have devastating effects.
But I do think everyone should ask around, talk to LLMD, talk to family, research, etc before ever starting an unsupervised protocol.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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WildCondor
Unregistered
posted
Listen, a good friend of mine almost died. How can I not warn people about this now? Sorry Gael, but I will not just sit back and ignore incidents like this. My goal in this post is to relay to people potentially life-saving information and I am not going to let you stand in my way of that.
If you want to know the ins and out of hypernatremia then research it. You will note in your search that it can be caused my large amounts of salt ingestion, which is what happened in this case. Yes, it is often referred to as simple dehydration but it has other contributing factors, in this case excess salt. It is not the time nor the place to argue the diagnosis. It happened and it happened because of the Salt/Vit C protocol.
I have done my job posting the warning, and I am signing off and I am not going to waste time arguing with anyone on here. If folks can help post the link that would be great. Thanks.
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lymetwister
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posted
Just my 2 cents, for whatever it's worth.
I don't want to discuss what happened to WC's friend, as all the facts leading to his problem arn't disclosed.
I will say, that I have been doing better on the Salt/C since I started it, except for today, but I think that had to do with adding the Artemisinin.
When I was on Salt/C a year ago, I was up to 6gm per day. I had tons of blood work back then and my sodium/potassium were always o.k. as were the rest of my electrolytes.
Many claim to get well on this protocol, so I think if your being followed by your Dr., you should be fine. I've been to the ER more times since being off the Salt/C then I was on it and was there for breathing and heart issues related to the Lyme and Co.
During my last hospital admission, I had a Cerebral Angiogram. (Not fun) This is when they said I needed brain surgery, but didn't.
I guess my point is that what works for some may not work for others. Certainly, if you have high BP or kidney disease, this is not the protocol for you.
I believe in this protocol and so sorry I put it on hold for so long.
Just my 2 cents, or maybe that was 3 :-)
Gary
Posts: 1227 | From District of Columbia | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
Taking extra sodium mimics aldosterone eg raises serum sodium and lowers serum potassium. Oddly some of the Marshall folks take ARB's along with the salt and vitamin c. I am not sure why they would need the ARB since there aldo would be low, gfr high, Renin-angiotensin low etc. There is a puzzle to be solved here, anyone have the missing piece?
Beachinit.
-------------------- Ideas not advice. Posts: 448 | From Downeast Maine | Registered: Jul 2009
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posted
Day 33 on Salt/C protocol. BP is 122/68 heart rate 63. Hmmm. maybe I would feel better if this protocol would cost $7000.
Posts: 160 | From Mid-east USA | Registered: Jan 2010
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sutherngrl
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posted
All protocols hold some risk!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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Abxnomore
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posted
Ditto! Medicine is not one size fits all. I doubt the folks over at Lyme strategies would appreciate your warnings.
That group has been in existence for at least seven years now and many of them swear by Salt and C in what it has done for them. There are many folks on this site, too, who have been doing it for quite a while.
Without all the facts, this feels more like fear mongering.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by zil: [QB] Potassium and salt are opposites. Increasing salt lowers potassium and increasing potassium lowers salt. If you go to far one way can be deadly. It's hard on the kidneys too. I'd love to be able to do this protocol but I'm afraid to.
No way I could do this one... I can't take much Vit C anyway... but messing with potassium is VERY dangerous. I found that out the last time I had to do a cleanse for a colonoscopy.
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96222 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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glm1111
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posted
WC,
Again, Excess salt is NOT the cause of hypernatremia. Not enough fluid intake is.
Sorry your friend got so sick, but it's just that you are not stating correct information here nor all the facts.
I take 20 gms of salt/c a day and have been doing it for 4yrs. I have never gotten dehydrated.( Not suggesting anyone do this.)
My b/p runs 120/80 and my heart rate is usually in the low 60's. Some people may be salt sensitive and definitely should consult their doctor and be tested.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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lymebytes
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posted
WC - how much salt a day was he doing, do you know?
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
WC was telling about her friend people have to be careful.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
my mom was hospitalized several times for having either too much potassium or too little.
one time the doctor asked her how many bananas she ate and she said "i hate them, i never eat them".
she spent a week in the hospital and almost died.
she wasn't doing any lyme treatment but her system was always messed up.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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METALLlC BLUE
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posted
Compared to many of the drugs we take, I can see what people decide to take risks like this. That's really all I can say. At some point, -- after evidence based options have been exhausted, people are going to go out on the fringe, especially if they're barely functional (or not at all).
Becareful, for sure, and keep your blood levels monitored and your doctor involved. Even if people don't agree with you, ultimately you have to make the decision.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
I agree Metallic there are risk in so many treatments. If I ever wanted to try this I would but I would have bloodwork done often to be sure everything is in balance in my system just like you need to do with some antibiotics.
We are all captains of our own ship.
Posts: 805 | From Utopia | Registered: Feb 2006
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This can be a very dangerous approach. You definitely need direct supevison from an MD on this one.
Posts: 911 | Registered: Mar 2005
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springshowers
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posted
ITs always good to report and posts experiences and what reactions other have had.
Its horrible what happened.
But the fact is that like many have said all treatments pose a risk and for some reason there is a subset of people who have chosen certain treatment protocols to outwardly speak out against at any chance they get.
And well. I would love it if the posts were more about what happened and not the big drama and warning. The salt c groups are going to see it as Gael did and say that there was an obvious dehydration issue and that person was not following protocol. Which they warn big time against not dong and drinking a water with this protocol is a HUGE importance.
Then again that person may have other issues specifically that we do not know about that made them a bad candidate. NOt everyone fits for every protocol. Just like those on here who can not tolerate this or that and go to something else.
I have done Salt C for a good stretch a couple years ago and the only real reason i switched was opportunities for other things that I did not think would come back around for me.
I always have that in my group of things to do and for me rotate. I think it is very safe and effective if done properly.
I even was on asking Gary and kinda getting on him a little for not ramping up as slowly as you would the first time and moving to fast and taking too much too quickly. I do think it is EXTREMLY important to follow the protocol and slowly ramp up the amounts and watch yourself very carefully.
That said.. Please be careful everyone. That is what I get out of this warning.. A reminder that we have to be careful in whatever we choose.
Blessing And I hope that this person recovers quickly and feels better.
Posts: 2747 | From Unites States Of America | Registered: Apr 2009
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richedie
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posted
My doctor insisted it is very dangerous and said I shold not try it! She has seen patients hospitalized over Salt/C.
-------------------- Mepron/Zith/Ceftin Doxy/Biaxin/Flagyl pulse. Artemisinin with Doxy/Biaxin. Period of Levaquin and Ceftin. Then Levaquin, Bactrim and Biaxin. Bactrim/Augmentin/Rifampin. Mepron/Biaxin/Artemisinin/Cat's Claw Rifampin/Bactrim/Alinia Plaquenil/Biaxin Posts: 1949 | From Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2008
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glm1111
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posted
Richie,
You seemed to have deleted the post where you stated you were taking salt/c and at 1/2 tsp 4-5 x a day.
You said the reason you stopped was that you didn't notice anything different. So, I guess you didn't have any adverse reaction.
The blanket statement you made above that your doctor insisted that it was very dangerous and that she has seen patients hospitalized over salt/c is just too eroneous.
I suspect that she just made that statement because she herself doesn't understand the protocol and she isn't differentiating the difference between table salt and sea salt.
I truly doubt whether she can site any cases where patients were hospitalized because of salt/c.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
My LLMD rolled his eyes when I mentioned Salt/C, like, please don't even go there. I am wondering before someone embarks on salt/c are they given a full explanation of possible side effects and warnings the way information is dispensed with antibiotics?
Posts: 365 | From Sylvania | Registered: Aug 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
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Member # 6628
posted
JR, Usually when they go to groups dedicated to the therapy ( or even here), people -- from my observation -- have gone out of their way big time to make the person aware of consequences and to be sure to take great care to go slowly.
Beyond that, I don't know. I don't even know if it works, but I know I would consider it after having spent the last 8 years on antibiotics and alternative therapies. I've done just about everything. I'm to the point where I'm using fringe therapies like the Bionic 880 (starting in a week).
I mean seriously, this is some pretty wacky ****. Far out science fiction type ****. But guess what? I'm out of other options -- at least for now. Next on my list is Rife. I think Rife runs less risks than Salt/C, (think), so I put these therapies in orders based on what little (or a lot) that I know.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
sutherngrl
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 16270
posted
If your sick as a dog for long enough and nothing you try seems to help, it is understandable that ppl resort to alternative treatments.
If you have no life due to such severe illness, then you start to think, "what do I have to loose". You can become desperate and I can see how anybody including myself could resort to just about anything in an effort to regain your life.
Not that I am promoting the salt/c protocol. Nor am I condeming it!
Posts: 4035 | From Mississippi | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Thank you, WildCondor.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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Brussels
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Member # 13480
posted
I did this for a while, got awful herxes (probably meant it worked to kill), then got high blood pressure from it. The tinnitus I gained appeared after first days of salt/ C, it took me a long time to heal.
The longer I kept trying that my body accepted the extra amounts of salt, the longer it took for my BP to return to normal.
Salt and C caused REAL harm to many people in this board in the past, it has been discussed here many times. While few others say it is fine (almost always the same people), it is not for everyone.
Short term, yes, I would do that for a trial (not anymore though, as I already tried it).
Middle and long term, nope: too many risks. Many loads of better and gentler alternatives, in my opinion. It may work well for some parasites, but for lyme, I doubt.
Salt and C discussions are almost always heated.
Whenever any criticism against the protocol shows up, the first person to be blamed is the person for which the protocol didn't work.
Same pattern here. The guy who almost died is to be blamed, not the protocol.
Beware, guys. Not everyone here is lying. The warning is REAL.
Why is that only Salt/ C proponents keep accusing other lyme sufferers? If an abx doesn't work, there won't be people screaming that the patient is lying, not taking their pills correctly, right?
Why is then that the only blame for the salt/C not to work lies in the patient?
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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glm1111
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Member # 16556
posted
Brussels,
It's not about blaming the patient. It's about misinformation in regards to what really happened.
As I stated before, hypernatremia is not due to excess salt, but is a direct result of not having enough fluid intake.
In other words allowing onesself to become dehydrated because they didn't drink enough water. All of the facts were not presented here, but for some reason, that is not accepted as a problem.
Instead if something goes wrong while someone is doing the salt/c protocol, then it must be the protocol.
No one here said the patient was lying, what IS being stated is that the information MEDICALLY is incorrect. Again HYPERNATREMIA IS A RESULT OF NOT TAKING IN ENOUGH FLUIDS!
Why is that so hard to accept? I guess it's easier to blame the unpopular protocol.
Any time someone presents erroneous and not factual information (as would have to be presented in a court of law) about a situation and presents dire warnings without all of the facts,(in this case the salt/c protocol) it becomes very frustrating.
If it were an absolute FACT that the person was being hurt by this protocol, I would be the first one to shout about it.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
Stop trying to argue over semantics. If you cannot see the danger in this you have no business advising sick people on how to treat their medical problems.
I have personally see now much trouble people can get into with electrolyte imbalances from much subtler causes. They can and do kill people.
Posts: 714 | From San Antonio TX | Registered: Oct 2004
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posted
My LLMD didn't bat an eye when I said I was doing salt/C. All she said was that it stopped working for some of her patients. As far as I know, they are all doing it on their own, not on her recommendation.
My cardio was pleased when I was up to 6g of salt.
I read a book by a MD that said the study on salt and high bp really wasn't impressive at all. Not many were effected by salt or reduction of it. He did recommend salt intake, unrefined salt.
He did mention that some people are sensitive to salt.
posted
I did not want to come back to this thread again. However, some people just will not leave this (or me) alone.
For the final time, hypernatremia can, (and was in my friend's case) be caused by excess salt intake. I am in med school and I know what I am talking about. Do you think I would post something on here this serious just for giggles? You don't know me at all.
I am not here to argue what Salt/C does or does not do for Lyme patients. I respect people's right to choose whatever treatment they want. Do not assume that because I posted this warning that I have a stance on the treatment protocol. I also very much understand the desperate measures some people take to try to get well again. I was once in your shoes, and did a ton of risky things to try to get cured, some of them would blow your mind, so again, do not assume.
Some of you need to show some respect and try being thankful that people like myself are here taking my free time to post educated information and warnings trying to help ALL of you. I do not have to be on here anymore, I have been well for 5 years, I have a full and busy life, and I have much more positive things to do. That said, I am here because I know the patients need me and my heart is in this for life. I am not here to argue with people. If you do not want the help, then please scroll on by. Some of you have no right to try to sabotage and get in the way of what might be information that could save another persons life. I do not see why you need to resort to making ignorant and ungrateful remarks.
Also, if "people would not think kindly of my warning" and this is "fear mongering" then they have their heads buried in the sand and are only presenting one side of the story. They live in glass houses ans should not be throwing stones. Ignorance and censorship prevailing. Sad to see. You would not want to see your antibiotic prescriptions come without any warnings or contraindications tied up in a little bow smelling like perfect roses now would you? Of course not, there are always risks! I agree!
Here...since you just cant seem to let this lie. Let's have school for a minute.
Electrolytes 101
Here, let's do wiki first for all lazy way.
"Water is lost from the body in a variety of ways, including perspiration, insensible losses from breathing, and in the feces and urine. If the amount of water ingested consistently falls below the amount of water lost, the serum sodium level will begin to rise, leading to hypernatremia. Rarely, hypernatremia can result from massive salt ingestion
From my Medical textbook
"Although less common, hypernatremia can also result from excess salt intake"
Med. Hypernatremia represents a deficit of water in relation to the body's sodium stores, which can result from a net water loss or a hypertonic sodium gain. Net water loss accounts for most cases of hypernatremia. Hypertonic sodium gain usually results from clinical interventions or accidental sodium loading. As a result of increased extracellular sodium concentration, plasma tonicity increases. This increase in tonicity induces the movement of water across cell membranes, causing cellular dehydration.
The following 3 mechanisms may lead to hypernatremia, alone or in concert:
- Pure water depletion (eg, diabetes insipidus)
- Water depletion exceeding sodium depletion (eg, diarrhea)
- Sodium excess (eg, salt poisoning)
Med online. Sodium must be maintained at a specific concentration in the blood and the fluid surrounding the body's cells for the body to function properly. The body maintains a balance of sodium in the blood by matching the amount of sodium ingested with the amount excreted (put out) by the kidneys. Hypernatremia occurs when the body loses too much water in relation to the amount of sodium in the blood. Excessive water loss can occur if the kidneys excrete too much urine (called polyuria). Or, it can be caused by excessive sweating during intense heat or exercise, prolonged diarrhea or vomiting, or simply by not drinking enough water. Hypernatremia can also be caused by a high salt intake,
In closing, hypernatramia is often referred to as "dehydration" and most of the time that is exactly what it is and not drinking enough water is what causes it.
In this case, my friend WAS drinking plenty of water, he was going slow and steady with the Salt/C and still, he got seizures and ended up in the ER with abnormal electrolytes and an irregular heart rhythm. The cause of the hypernatremia was determined to be EXCESS SALT INTAKE.
Please be careful with this if you are doing it and do not assume all symptoms are "herxes"! That is what happened here.
Those are the facts. That is the warning. Ignore it if you wish. The choice is yours.
Signing off now for the final time. Good luck everyone. Please be careful. -WC
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lymebytes
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posted
It is true, too much salt can cause Hypernatremia OR too little water or both.
In some people it can be complex, if it is studied, you read about renal problems or "thirst drive" being an issue.
I do a MUCH smaller intake of salt at my LLMd's approval, BUT my electrolytes are tested often and BP. My LLMd would never ok the levels of salt in the Salt/C protocol.
I think the real issue here is to listen to your LLMd. WC's friend was told not to do this. There had to be a reason why his doctor said no. If my Md said no, I certainly wouldn't do it anyway.
I hope others google/study Hypernatremia and ask your LLMd's what your max salt intake should be. Although salt is absolutely necessary for survival, you may have a high salt diet, or high BP or messed up electrolytes - all have to be considered before embarking on high dose salt.
WC - I am so sorry this happened to your friend and I read survivors can have perm neuro deficits. I hope your friend recovers fully.
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
I always give up writing in salt/C discussions, because it always leads to nothing.
Wild condor wrote: " He was drinking plenty of water. "
Gael keep saying: "In other words allowing onesself to become dehydrated because they didn't drink enough water."
Doesn't that imply you're calling someone liar?
Even if he didn't drink a lot of water, as stated in the medical book, 'Hypernatremia can also be caused by a high salt intake.'
Suppose his kidneys didn't work well, drinking more water would do the job?
Come on, Gael. It's ONLY with salt/C that such type of discussions arise (the pointing fingers to the patients themselves).
I like your other threads on other subjects! I just can't accept that sort of blind fanaticism and pointing fingers to others only during salt/C discussions.
I guess we're big enough for that type of behavior.
I'm also no longer sick. It will be a year without lyme, nor lyme treatment.
I just thought it was important to say for people that don't know about its dangers. There were MANY people with lyme who got damaged (some people say permanently) with salt/C.
Just do a search here.
If it works for some, great. But DEFINITIVELY, it is not for everyone.
This is my opinion, of course.
If you go to the salt/C forum, you'll see the thousands of people that got healed in their list. I was one of them!! They put my name there without my permission, knowing that I left the protocol and the forum because I was unable to stand it. I was FAR from healed after salt/C.
Never I was a success story with salt/C. After I found my name there years later, I question now if any of those stories are true.
Me too, I'm not writing again here in this thread. I just leave my view and experience.
I also know a lady that was one of the most frequent posters there for many years. She sort of stopped posting after the blaming got too bad (on other people, not on herself).
Thank you Wildcondor, for your warning. Great to know that you are following medical school! I hope you become a LLMD!
So, that's it. Ending my post in this thread here.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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glm1111
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posted
Brussels,
I clearly stated above it's not about blaming the patient, it's about misinformation. In other words, all of the FACTS were not presented.
(That does not imply I was saying he was a liar, and I really don't like your accusations!)
Facts such as what other meds was he on that could have contributed to the hypernatremia. Was he perspiring and loosing fluids etc. Hypernatremia cannot be caused by a high salt intake unless one does not take in enough fluid. It's just common sense.
FYI WC, is studying to be a Physicians Assistant (PA) not an MD as that is what she stated in her blog. Also I believe that WC just attacked the IPT treatment that springshowers posted, so it's not just a heated discussion about SALT/C.
Bottom line is people that do alternative treatments and are attacked because others are are misinformed, are put on the defense.
Facts and not twisted erroneous scary statements is what's objected to. Everyone should be checking with their doctor and following their advice anyway.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
GLM111: Glad you've decided to end it.
You're going around in circles with your posts, and not speaking with an informed opinion and the whole thread has gone off topic in personal slams.
Please take this as constructive critisism.
Do a little research on exactly what elements comprise the electrolyte balance, and how imbalance can occur when the elements ARE NOT in the correct ratios with each other.
It's more complicated than salt intake and drinking enough (or not enough) water.
Best regards, Barb
Posts: 1875 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Barb,
The discussion was mainly in reference to hypernatremia and that was why on stayed on that focus.
It was NOT about other elements that can cause electrolyte imbalance and there are numerous reasons. I didn't think I had to go into a whole medical dissortation about electrolytes since the doctors dx was hypernatremia (dehydration).
I believe I did mention there were other factors that could cause dehydration such as vomiting, diarrhea, meds, excess perspiration etc. That is why I objected to the blanket statement that salt/c was the cause.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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posted
How much water are you suppose to drink? Is there a formula to eliminate any risk of too much or to little water. You can get into an electrolyte imbalance with either. Does a persons metabolism and kidney function matter? I'm wondering what test I would need to do this protocol.
Posts: 383 | From Ar | Registered: May 2007
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ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
quote:Originally posted by WildCondor: ...I am in med school and I know what I am talking about. Do you think I would post something on here this serious just for giggles? You don't know me at all.
...Some of you need to show some respect and try being thankful that people like myself are here taking my free time to post educated information and warnings trying to help ALL of you. I do not have to be on here anymore, I have been well for 5 years, I have a full and busy life, and I have much more positive things to do. That said, I am here because I know the patients need me and my heart is in this for life. I am not here to argue with people. If you do not want the help, then please scroll on by. Some of you have no right to try to sabotage and get in the way of what might be information that could save another persons life. I do not see why you need to resort to making ignorant and ungrateful remarks.
Also, if "people would not think kindly of my warning" and this is "fear mongering" then they have their heads buried in the sand and are only presenting one side of the story. They live in glass houses ans should not be throwing stones. Ignorance and censorship prevailing. Sad to see. You would not want to see your antibiotic prescriptions come without any warnings or contraindications tied up in a little bow smelling like perfect roses now would you? Of course not, there are always risks! I agree!
Here...since you just cant seem to let this lie. Let's have school for a minute.
Electrolytes 101
Here, let's do wiki first for all lazy way.
...
Wildcondor, I've always liked info that you've posted in the past, but I must say that I find your tone and attitude becoming more and more patronizing and condescending and now, with this post, I'm near ready to lose my once delightful lunch. How dare you!?
I do not have to "scroll on by" at your command and all of us have every right to post as we please, as long as we don't violate site rules. I will not hesitate to say what I think.
BIG DEAL that you're in med school. Bum Steere, The Worm and Spliced-Gene actually graduated from med school with behavior that is now so shameful that there can be very few here who would object if their licenses to practice were revolked immediately. Not to mention your utter conceit with comments such as how we should be thankful that "people like myself" are taking their free time to post info here... Excuse me? What about the rest of us who are in remission? So you're well and have a full and busy life and more positive things to do? Then, by all means, please go do them! Talk about ignorant, ungrateful remarks and people in glass houses who throw stones; just look in the mirror!
Mods can ban me if they wish for this post, but it needs to be said...How completely arrogant you've become, Wildcondor!
[ 03-27-2010, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: ping ]
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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posted
A. If you think salt/c is dangerous , don't do it
B. If you don't then be careful and don't try to push it upon others unless you explain the risks.
Posts: 42 | From Niger | Registered: Oct 2008
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
quote:Originally posted by mwhite18: A. If you think salt/c is dangerous , don't do it
B. If you don't then be careful and don't try to push it upon others unless you explain the risks.
This
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It is good to pay attention to everyone's reactions - we learn from that.
WC has some good points: the main problem was thinking this was a herx and then still proceeding. The blog link below details how bad a move that can be.
And, while we can learn from the mistakes of other, I would also like to thank Gael for being here to help those who find this helps. She has been a voice of reason and safety - all along.
She consistency cautions people to start low and slow and not just take off like a rocket (as so many do - over and over). Some people don't know what caution means and some don't do all their homework first. So, Gael has always been there to answer questions about Salt/C. and help redirect when something has been overlooked or misinterpreted.
Yes, of course there are concerns, considerations and cautions with this. The same can be said of any plan. Get educated. Know the facts. Take it very seriously. Start slowly -proceed wisely. Listen to your body. It's not for everyone but it can be helpful to some.
All this should be common sense but lyme seems to have some of us loose our compass regarding the ability to determine - or decode - just what our body is telling us.
I don't feel drawn to Salt/C but I can't ignore that Gael, an intelligent woman with medical training, has had good success with it herself. Some others have, too.
For anyone thinking about this addition to studying the actual protocol, here's one patients' blog/ checklist with things to consider before and during - this also answers some questions and see where others tripped up - it's good to be aware of the tricky stuff in advance.
Mostly: don't assume any one protocol is the one right one for everyone or will address everything.
Never assume everything is a herx - and never just keep on pushing harder through a herx. That can be a very wrong move.
[ 03-27-2010, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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bpeck
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3235
posted
GLM111:
Sorry I wasn't clear - I know you wanted to talk/discuss just about about dehydration ..
But since this involves sodium & chloride, it's difficult to talk about just one element- whether it be deficiency or an excess of one of the major electrolytes.
- So, what I mean is that you can't talk JUST about dehydration/hydration ( i.e. water) when the problem is primarily caused by an electrolyte imbalance.
That's because this particular problem (which is being call dehydration) is actually more than Just Dehydration because to be in balance, the elements ( that comprise the electrolytes) work in concert with each other, substitute for each other in some cases, and for proper balance need to be the the correct ratio to each other.
When Drs. give an IV bag in the hospital for "deydration"- it's *just* not water in that bag.
IMO it's not a case of thinking it dangerous or not dangerous - it's a case where you have to understand the dosages of single elements ( in this case sodium & chloride ) and understand how it's going to effect the whole Electrolyte balance.
Here's a list of the major electrolytes... and the reference site.
* Sodium (Na). A positively charged electrolyte that helps to balance fluid levels in the body and facilitates neuromuscular functioning. * Potassium (K). A main component of cellular fluid, this positive electrolyte helps to regulate neuromuscular function and osmotic pressure. * Calcium (Ca). A cation, or positive electrolyte, that affects neuromuscular performance and contributes to skeletal growth and blood coagulation. * Magnesium (Mg). Influences muscle contractions and intracellular activity. A cation. * Chloride (CI). An anion, or negative electrolyte, that regulates blood pressure. * Phosphate (HPO4). Negative electrolyte that impacts metabolism and regulates acid-base balance and calcium levels. * Bicarbonate (HCO3). A negatively charged electrolyte that assists in the regulation of blood pH levels. Bicarbonate insufficiencies and elevations cause acid-base disorders (i.e., acidosis, alkalosis).
Posts: 1875 | From VT | Registered: Oct 2002
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springshowers
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 19863
posted
"I can't ignore that Gael, an intelligent woman with medical training, has had good success with it herself. Some others have, too.'
I so agree with this and all that was said above about Gael. She has been a ROCK around here for support and intelligence and detailed answers about Salt C and how it work and what and how to implement it correctly.
That is what is so important and some people just jump in and do not understand the importance of following protocol. Since most do this without a doctor telling them what to do each step of the way then it is even more important.
So research and learning and following in detail the protocol (which is written to go slow and watch yourself and your reactions every step of the way).
Posts: 2747 | From Unites States Of America | Registered: Apr 2009
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I THINK WILD DID A GREAT JOB IN SAYING WHAT SHE HAS POSTED AND i THINK HER TONE IN SAYING IT WAS FINE.sorry about caps There are many salts that can cause this ie potasium salts to little your muscles and heart dont work to much and the same thing. She was just saying be very careful etc.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
then, if further considering this, be sure to get the instructions, follow them - keep in touch with Gael or others who have succeeded with this. I've read of too many taking far too much salt right off the bat and then wonder what went wrong.
Also, if someone had diabetes or certain other conditions, this just might not be the right fit . There are other ways to address parasites so don't give up.
Everything we consider (even foods) requires a lot of homework and much thought.
Most important: first clear it with your doctor and be sure to be monitored. Realize that what one might think is a herx could be a warning sign. Cautions are very helpful so that those same bumps or cliffs can be avoided.
WildCondor said: " . . . Everyone has a different metabolism and tolerance . . . " - that is important to remember for those trying to push through with heroics for some sort of herx ribbon. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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momlyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 27775
It is important to start slow and scale up slowly.
-------------------- May health be with you!
Toxic mold was suppressing our immune systems, causing extreme pain, brain fog and magnifying symptoms. Four days after moving out, the healing began. Posts: 2007 | From NY/VT Border | Registered: Aug 2010
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