nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Whenever I am on abx I have wakefullness in the middle of the night. I usually get a bart hot flash around 2:30-3:30AM and then cannot go back to sleep for three hours. It is strange that it is the same event, same time and same period that I cannot get back to sleep.
I take corydallis root to go to sleep but nothing works on the middle of the night awakenings. I can either lay in bed trying to stay in a meditative space or get up and use the computer or whatever. Here I am and it is now 4:47.
Does anyone else experience this? When I quit the abx I sleep better. Someone on this board mentioned that bart multiplies during the night. I don't know why this is happening.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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feelfit
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12770
posted
Neff,
FWIW, I have the same problem to a 'tee'. It doesn't happen every night...the bart hot flash does....the awakening does too...same time as you 2:30- a.m. like clockwork.
sometimes i am able to fall back into a restless sleep with the aid of benadryl...other times I am up and on the computer for 3-4 hr's.
I am treating Bart but had this problem when treating babesia as well......
I think it was Bea Seibert who said that Bart replicates during sleep...
feelfit
Posts: 3975 | From usa | Registered: Aug 2007
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dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
posted
I didn't know Bart caused "hot flashes" Thought Babs was the responsible culprit.
Where is that Bart -hot flash info?
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
posted
While I don't get the hot flashes, I get exactly what you describe. Every night lately. for me I wake up close to 4 AM. Sometimes earlier. I was going to make a post about it yesterday, but didn't get to it.
I found that taking a snack and activated charcoal would put me back to sleep. I guess it's the liver as I do feel horrible when I wake up. I would like to know how to correct the problem though as it's annoying. I take plenty of stuff for my liver.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I've been doing some reading on the subject of circadian rhythms. It seems that whatever the problem is - these pathogens (Lyme, babesia, bart, etc.) effect our cellular function which effect our circadian rhythm.
These thing may also be effecting our genetics, as well. Our metabolism is connected to our circadian rhythm. If something is causing damage or dysfunction to our cells - it is probably effecting our circadian rhythm. It also connects to genetics, too. It's a pretty deep subject.
---
New Hope For Sleep Disorders: Genetic Switch For Circadian Rhythms Discovered
"Sassone-Corsi notes that if this amino-acid modification is impaired in any way, the switching mechanism can be thrown off, which can be the genetic underpinning of circadian-rhythm-related ailments. Currently, Sassone-Corsi is testing antibodies that can target this BMAL1 amino-acid activity."
I guess it's a case of chicken or egg... I think it's probably the pathogens that cause metabolic dysfunction which effects the circadian rhythm.
I'm not sure if it's specific to the pathogen or any particular organ. Many of us with Lyme, co-infections, fibromyalgia & CFS (& probably other illnesses) have sleep problems.
I also tend to get more pain around 2-4am. I usually end up having to take some Vicodin to fall asleep. It may have something to do with cellular dysfunction & it's interconnection with circadian rhythm. I don't know why this happens between 2 - 4am, though.
I don't have any hot flashes. I'm not sure if we can just pin this sort of thing on the liver & being too toxic. It may have to do with overall metabolism & cellular function...?
Just thinking out loud here.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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canefan17
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 22149
posted
Have a snack before bed. A protein snack.
High cortisol levels, that spike around 3am-4am are a sign of hypoglycemia. (and subsequently adrenal fatigue)
An hour or so before bed I always try to get something with protein or good fat (almond butter with celery, etc)
This helps regulate my blood sugar while I sleep.
Posts: 5394 | From Houston, Tx | Registered: Aug 2009
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posted
I currently try what canefan17 suggests with almond butter as well. It doesn't seem to help me unfortunately, but my adrenal function is not great (started cortisol again). I do suffer from hypoglycemia dips as well (as seen in recent non-fasting labwork).
I may steal my grandmas kit (she is in the same house), and take my blood sugar when I wake up next time. For whatever reason, hypoglycemia gives me a really sick feeling as well. Perhaps that is it.
Posts: 967 | From A deserted island without internet access | Registered: Sep 2009
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Remember to Smile
Unregistered
posted
Prologue - I'm losing cognitive skills, so plz just know I mean well...
In reverse order, Canefan: imho, I believe advice in the book "Potatoes Not Prozac" (new edition out, so see latest. Available in libraries.) is better suited for good sleep. A light portion of quality carbs with NO protein is best. If you have protein & carb, you may become too invigorated and just stay up & do more! Of course there's debate on that.
That book is great for helping anyone with any type of sugar cravings or food addictions or alcohol abuse challenges. There are numerous easy-to-grasp charts with glycemic index info, etc.
Her (author's) oft-repeated urging is to keep a food journal, cause ymmv. I record all Rx meds, lots of symptoms, and about half the food I eat in a notebook.
A. Puhn's book "Midlife Miracle Diet" is fab for making it clear that we need lots of protein & veggies for breakfast & lunch. She encourages people to be "carb careful" to get into "better balance." She urges limiting carbs until after lunch. Ex: Quinoa pasta for dinner is fine, but cereal & toast & juice for breakfast is a carb overload. (I refer to this book often to keep me on track & have given it as a gift, too.)
I need to learn more about adrenal support and cortisol, so welcome more dialogue on this.
Sparkle, thanks for bringing up circadian rhythms. I stress at the thought of opening a new link today (info overload stress), but look forward to reading them soon.
Similar to Sparkle's theme, there is much info in Chinese medicine, acupuncture and feng shui about specific hours of the day correlating with specific body functions.
Gigi, THANKS for posting the link for Organ-clock theory! I've been thinking about this for a few weeks but hadn't pulled out my books yet. Maybe you could elaborate a bit here, and/or start a new thread explore it?
I pulled 2 sentences out from Gigi's link: "a strong or a weak organ disturbs the energetically sound relationship with the other. This causes pathological symptoms."
I believe these wee hours under discussing are "liver time" (not the technical term!).
Do circadian rhythms tie in to Lymies having symptom flares just before the full moon? Are the hoards of invading parasites surging within our lymie bods along with the chorus of life? Tied to pheremones, tides, et al? (Oh, yeah, that calls for a short answer! )
Liked kday's idea about using activated charcoal. Would go nicely for me with a 2/3 serving of my favorite whole grain rice crackers, plain. (Not the whole bag, just a few!)
posted
I used to wake up every night at 4 am. Now, on a different abx protocol, I'm up til 2, 3, or even sometimes 6 or 7 am. I'm tired but can't sleep. Had hotflashes on tetracycline and diflucan but they're mostly gone on mepron and zith.
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
I was reading something about Ayurveda & they have different times for the organs then the Chinese. I was trying to find it but I couldn't...
I'll keep looking.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Thanks, I am going through the links. Takes me awhile to digest new information. I want to understand the circadian rhythms.
Today one of my dogs had to be put to sleep. Yesterday I went to the doctor and he gave me a year's worth of ABX - said I do not need to worry about taking liver tests except maybe once a year. I think he is an idiot.
No wonder I wake up at night but it actually has nothing to do with anything happening.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
I went back to sleep and then woke up about every 15 minutes to half an hour until nearly 8AM. That is a typical night. It must be the stress of the abx on my liver. I will try some liver detox and support, and drink milk before bedtime with some extra magnesium. Maybe I should try eating something when I wake up.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Sorry about your pet, nefferdun. It probably adds to the stress level. Hope yo can get some good quality sleep soon.
I wouldn't want that many abx unless they were free. Seems that you may have to switch up your protocol & try different things so you don't build up a resistance.
I usually like to try a few first just to see if my body can deal with them. Buying a huge amount is usually a waste of money to me. Then, they make a big deal at the drugstore if you just want a few to test them out & charge you extra... Ugggh.
I can see why you would say he's an idiot.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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GiGi
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 259
I used to have (in my Lyme days) the worst problems around the time I was supposed to cook cinner and/or sit down for it. My major problems until I learned better were around that time in the evening. Look up the clock http://www.healthepic.com/accupuncture/static/Acupnorgan.htm
Go to bed with castor oil pack around whole body area! and leave it on. It helps. My major problems for liver toxin work was during metal detoxing.
We do our major detoxing at night. If organs start screaming, it's time to get busy with help. My most favorite one was Ayush Livit 2. I added one to every meal and that kept things under control. I have never taken milk thistle. Any good product containing chlorella helps immensely.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Thanks, I have a detox I have not used much of yet. When I took it before I got pretty sick so quit using it. Maybe this time will be better, and probably what I need anyway even if I do feel worse.
That doctor is bananas. I should have asked for every drug I could think of he was going to give me an open ended prescription like that. He also said the Fry test was a waste of money. It didn't matter what I had, just give me a bunch of abx for the rest of my life if necessary. I feel depressed - so on my own.
Good news is, I am getting excellent references of good LLMD's in other parts of the country and I now have the money so I can travel there. You are all so helpful.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
no matter what i take for sleep or do, i wake up every night at about 2:45 or 3:00, 3:15 at the latest.
i'll lay there for a couple of hours then finally get back to sleep.
even i take a sleep aid, bam!! i wake up.
nothing seems to help.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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lyme in Putnam
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11561
posted
I am so sorry about your dog. Its a tough time now I'm sure. Feel better.
-------------------- He took u to it, He'll you through Posts: 2837 | From NE. | Registered: Apr 2007
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nefferdun
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 20157
posted
Thank you for the sympathy for losing my dog. In the last two months I have lost another dog, my favorite cat and my mother. The four months before that, a horse foundered, another horse poked something almost into his eye, someone dumped a horse here for me to take care until he dies (he is 24) and my other favorite cat died. It has been very hard. No wonder I feel so out of it.
It is hard to tell what is depression from the bartonella and what is just depression and grieving from life. My dog that just died was very very old and past his time but the others were young and their deaths were tragic and totally unexpected.
-------------------- old joke: idiopathic means the patient is pathological and the the doctor is an idiot Posts: 4676 | From western Montana | Registered: Apr 2009
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
Sorry, nefferdun! That's alot of loss in a short time. Take it easy. I hope time will heal your heart.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
So many losses nefferdun! I hope you have good support around you and you're taking the time to take care of yourself and heal.
I will follow up on the clock-that looks interesting.
I'm on sleep meds, first in my life, and I'm an insomniac who had successfully been able to sleep most nights.
Without the med, I wake up every 15 minutes to 2 hours, usually 5-6+ times per night. With the med I wake between 3am and 5am and take another to get back to sleep. With too little sleep I can not detox and get so bad I have to go off the meds, build back up, etc.
My acupuncturist who had successfully treated my insomnia before I started lyme/babs treatment doesn't know what else to do, so I'm not getting treatment.
Have tried every combo of food before bed as well as meditation, prayer, getting enough exercise, etc. At this point only the med gets me the sleep I need; not a good situation.
This is really helpful thread-thanks.
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