posted
I read in Medical Questions about a teleconference between 2 doctors.
There was mention and "question" about "Manganese".
I just started taking a supplement of Magnesium, 250 mg 1/day w/meal (which I'm not sure if that is even enough for Late Stage Lyme).
Anyway I wondered if Manganese and Magnesium were in the same family???
Someone posted that the spiro's "feed" on the Manganese I believe.
Should I continue the Magnesium? I have not received FULL treatment for my Lyme because I am still trying to find a Dr. I do not want to make things worse!
-------------------- Sick and Tired of Being Sick and Tired!! Posts: 153 | From St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Jun 2010
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dmc
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5102
The spirochetes deplete magnesium... If you do a search here you'll get tons of posts regarding should you take magnesium or not.
You'd get more answers if you put "Magnesium or Manganese" in the subject line of this thread.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I disagree with some of the things said to eliminate: nuts, seeds, cocoa. All are excellent for our health (unless one has an allergy to them). Cocoa, of course, should be without sugar. It is a simply fabulous plant with key antioxidants.
Since there is no direct link, it's hard to find out more about the author and see the direct quotes.
As for magnesium, there is one lyme researcher/author who says to avoid as it feeds the lyme. (I would have to hunt for that title and link but maybe someone will post it.)
I strongly disagree - yes, the lyme biofilm contains magnesium but it also contains other substances/nutrients.
If we deprive our body of magnesium, we will die. We require magnesium and if lyme steals that from us, we need more.
There are other ways to deal with the issue of biofilm but starving our bodies of key nutrients will kill us long before killing lyme. If we could figure out how to keep the biofilm from stealing our magnesium, now THAT would be way cool.
It's just not so easy as starving our cells to starve biofilm.
Most LLMDs advise magnesium supplementation. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
Dr. Burrascano's Treatment Guidelines, 16th edition, October, 2008
Page 6:
. . . Magnesium deficiency is very often present and quite severe.
. . . Hyperreflexia, muscle twitches, myocardial irritability, poor stamina and recurrent tight muscle spasms are clues to this deficiency.
. . . Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value.
. . . Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but those with severe deficiencies need additional, parenteral dosing: 1 gram IV or IM at least once a week until neuromuscular irritability has cleared.
Page 25:
. . . Levofloxacin is generally well tolerated, with almost no stomach upset. Very rarely, it can cause confusion- this is temporary (clears in a few days) and may be relieved by lowering the dose.
There is, however, one side effect that would require it to be stopped- it may cause a painful tendonitis, usually of the largest tendons. If this happens, then the levofloxacin must be stopped or tendon rupture may occur.
It has been suggested that loading the patient with magnesium may prevent this problem, and if the tendons do become affected, parenteral high dose vitamin C (plus parenteral magnesium) may afford rapid relief.
Page 28 (in the supplement section):
6. MAGNESIUM (required)
Magnesium supplementation is very helpful for the tremors, twitches, cramps, muscle soreness, heart skips and weakness. It may also help in energy level and cognition.
The best source is magnesium L-lactate dehydrate (``Mag-tab SR'', sold by Niche Pharmaceuticals: 1-800-677-0355, and available at Wal-Mart).
DO NOT rely on ``cal-mag'', calcium plus magnesium combination tablets, as they are not well absorbed. Take at least one tablet twice daily.
Higher doses increase the benefit and should be tried, but may cause diarrhea. In some cases, intramuscular or intravenous doses may be necessary.
Page 30:
OTHER OPTIONAL SUPPLEMENTS
VITAMIN D
Surprisingly, most people in America are vitamin D deficient. In the Lyme patient, low vitamin D levels can cause diffuse body aches and cramps that are not responsive to magnesium or calcium supplements.
Magnesium: The Underappreciated Mineral of Life Part II
-----------
All this on magnesium is partly because it has helped me so much. However, be sure to ask your doctor. Most lyme patients are very low in magnesium as the infections seem to do that.
One thing that makes lyme hard to treat is that the bacteria creates a sort of film around it, a biofilm.
Some are concerned that the magnesium can "feed" infection as magnesium has been found in the biofilm of borrelia (but - along with many other things).
However, there other ways to address the problem of biofilm besides with-holding the a key nutrient from all the cells in our body.
if the body is severely depleted the body must be replenished as magnesium is a necessary mineral for survival. We would die without adequate magnesium. Many of the severe symptoms of lyme can be greatly relieved with proper magnesium, along with other key nutrients.
Taking magnesium with B-6 helps it get into our cells better. And B-6 is a calming vitamin, too. -
Magnesium Malate is an essential mineral that is required by every cell in the human body and is important for helping to maintain normal cardiovascular, muscle, nerve, bone and cellular function.
Magnesium deficiency is one the most common nutrient deficiencies in the United States. No longer is there a sufficient amount of magnesium in most people's diet to maintain proper magnesium levels, even in a non-stressed individual.
Magnesium requirements can increase four to six fold under stress.
Under stress, magnesium is wasted through the kidney through the urine. It is also wasted from the body by the intake of coffee, soda, and alcohol.
A person mildly deficient in magnesium will have difficulty sleeping, sore muscles and constipation. A person moderately deficient in magnesium will experience muscle cramps, palpitations and muscle twitches.
A person severely deficient in magnesium will develop fatal cardiac arrhythmias, coronary spasms and heart attacks. Also, the possibility of seizures is more likely during severe magnesium deficiency if the patient has an irritable focus in his or her brain.
Magnesium Malate is likely to be the most effective form of magnesium.
Most alternative and integrative practitioners find a wide variation in the efficacy of different forms of magnesium.
Magnesium Oxide has the lowest absorption and utilization rate by the body, and this is the form most commonly found in health food stores.
Magnesium Malate is best absorbed and utilized by the body. According to many health care practitioners the cells utilize the malic acid for energy production in the mitochondria and simultaneously draw magnesium into the mitochondria, where it is most needed.
Most people in the United States are constipated because they have less than three bowel movements a day .
Constipation causes toxins to back up into the liver and gall bladder and then into the rest of the body. This back up of toxins will cause fatigue, brain fog, muscle aches and a variety of other symptoms.
Magnesium in sufficient amounts will correct constipation in most patients. Patients who should be most concerned and cautious when taking magnesium are those with kidney insufficiency or failure.
(from BIONATUS LABORATORIES NUTRAMEDIX DISTRIBUTOR IN ECUADOR Guayaquil, Ecuador)
(GiGi) -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Marnie posted this thread - Magnesium (Mg) is the key to successful treatment
. . . This is why the use of Mg derivatrves in therapy can represent an immunostimulating factor. The peculiarities of the cases are the following:
1. Patients had in addition to fever, articular pain and erythema migrans, Mg deficiency
2. The supplementation of therapy with Mg derrvatives had an immediate beneficial effect that was maintained in time.
As a conclusion at this stage, we consider that in the acute phase of Lyme borreliosis there is a significant Mg consumption and the introduction in therapy of such preparations is recommended and beneficial." . . . -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Marnie
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 773
posted
B. burgdorferi is one of the few pathogenic bacteria that can survive without iron, having replaced all of its iron-sulfur cluster enzymes with enzymes that use manganese, thus avoiding the problem many pathogenic bacteria face in acquiring iron. Wikipedia (and many other links as well)
Mn can and does substitute for Mg which WE need to make all of our enzymes (and WE need to make antibodies...along with Ca).
We need very little Mn compared to Mg.
P.S. In Romania, docs gave IV abx. AND IV doses of Mg...restoring the levels which drop "significantly" at the OUTSET of lyme.
The combination.
Mg is an anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine and inhibits HMG CoA reductase (like statin drugs). Bb follows the "cholesterol pathway" to build "his" cell walls...among lots of other pathways.
It appears we need to tame down inflammation bigtime AND hit Bb. Also, if IgE kicks in (histidine converts to histamine)...we may need anti-histamine "help". Bb's "zinc fingers" look to contain histidine.
Increasing ATP drives Mg back into the cell where it is the FIRST electrolyte to lock onto ATP as Mg-ATP.
MOST of our Mg is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP...intracellularly...which makes the level harder to figure out.
Posts: 9424 | From Sunshine State | Registered: Mar 2001
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nenet
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13174
posted
Hi Consuela,
I was the one who posted in that thread about Manganese and Lyme.
Magnesium is a different element.
Both elements are important parts of a healthy diet.
However, too much MANGANESE can be very toxic, and has been implicated in various disorders and disease states.
Considering Manganese's unique role in the life-cycle of the Lyme bacteria, that adds another concern for me, when it is being suggested that people supplement with it, beyond the levels found naturally in many foods.
MAGNESIUM is extremely important to our health, and becomes depleted when there is infection with Lyme Disease. It is very hard to take too much Magnesium, as our bodies metabolize it and "move it" quickly from the system if there is "too much". In other words, it comes out the other end, so to speak.
Many people find that Magnesium supplementation helps with their Lyme symptoms and recovery.
quote:Originally posted by Consuelachacha: just started taking a supplement of Magnesium, 250 mg 1/day w/meal (which I'm not sure if that is even enough for Late Stage Lyme). [snip] Should I continue the Magnesium? I have not received FULL treatment for my Lyme because I am still trying to find a Dr. I do not want to make things worse!
Dear Consuelachacha, It's great that you've been looking into nutrition as you prepare to be at your best to begin tx with your new LLMD.
Other posters addressed your magnesium question, and i'll bring up other nutrients.
Are you looking at Dr. B's suggested supplements from his 37-pg monograph? He lists supplements in order of priority based on decades of work with Lyme patients & their physicians worldwide.
Kefir is the number one recommendation. I drink coconut kefir. Have you started that, and another probiotic like acidophilis?
quote:Originally posted by Marnie: B. burgdorferi is one of the few pathogenic bacteria that can survive without iron, having replaced all of its iron-sulfur cluster enzymes with enzymes that use manganese, thus avoiding the problem many pathogenic bacteria face in acquiring iron. [snip] We need very little Mn compared to Mg. [snip]doses of Mg...restoring the levels which drop "significantly" at the OUTSET of lyme. [snip] Mg is an anti-inflammatory, anti-histamine and inhibits HMG CoA reductase (like statin drugs). Bb follows the "cholesterol pathway" to build "his" cell walls...among lots of other pathways.
It appears we need to tame down inflammation bigtime AND hit Bb. Also, if IgE kicks in (histidine converts to histamine)...we may need anti-histamine "help". Bb's "zinc fingers" look to contain histidine.
Increasing ATP drives Mg back into the cell where it is the FIRST electrolyte to lock onto ATP as Mg-ATP.
MOST of our Mg is attached to our ATP as Mg-ATP...intracellularly
Dear Marnie, I appreciate the info you've shared. Plz help me understand what's meant by "zinc fingers." Does LBb get its claws into our zinc reserves, too? Thx! Smile
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