The lyme chapter is what really peeved me. These co-infections are all native to other countries, not ours.

Lyme disease was even only a bacteria found in Europe. But it became a problem here shortly after the government was experimenting with infected ticks on Plum island. a german ex nazi headed up the Plum island experiments on infected ticks.

I think if this information is accurate it should warrent legal action...for infecting us..

You guys have any input...Is the book factualy accurate?

I think copies should be sent to all the senators to read. THEY them selves should read it NOT their aides.

I had heard about this book from numerous people and suspected it was interesting...but...onceI actually started it MYSELF...I am appauled and scared because I live so close to Plum island....

daniella

[This message has been edited by daniella (edited 28 March 2005).]

The first chapter is entitled:"1975 The Lyme connection"
The author is a lawyer, general counsel for a finance company.

This looks like a pretty reliable book, not like some of the conspiracy theory jobs.

Ann - OH

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
Yes, I am sickened as well...I am reading it now. Hard to believe we recruited these scientists. I have asked about class action suits 2x on this forum and have never received any responses. Perhaps it is based out of fear. I am especially angry because I was on Plum Island in the '80s. ..It was accessible to the public.

---

If you don't mind me asking, what do you mean when you say you were "on" the island. As a visitor, working there etc?

It's pretty incredible that this man was working with top US Infectious Disease personnel long after Hitler came to power, and even continued to have his work published in US medical journals right up to the moment the war broke out. (Of course it was not public knowledge then that he was Hitlers top biowar man, but the US authorities obviously knew it).

After the war Traub was brought to US as part of Operation Paperclip, the secret recruitment program of nazis who had "talents" considered useful to the US cold war ambitions.

The source of Carroll's info in Lab 257 is a former Justice officer who worked on uncovering nazis after the war, and is the man who brought former UN Sec General and chancellor of Austria Kurt Waldheim down in disgrace.

A pretty hard source of facts.

Traub is known for his tick experiments IN OPEN AIR on Plum Island in the 50's, and tick colonies continued for decades after that too.

Durland Fish (Steere camp entomologist-from-hell) worked there, reportedly studying the competence of ticks as vectors of African swine fever virus.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by daniella:
I am appauled!!! I am reading it now....

The lyme chapter is what really peeved me. These co-infections are all native to other countries, not ours.

They were never here until these "mad" scientists brought them here.

Lyme disease was even only a bacteria found in Europe. But it arrived around the same time a german headed up the Plum island experiements.(I am 1/2 german so I am not knocking them)

I think if this information is accurate it should warrent legal action...for infecting us..

You guys have any input...Is the book factualy accurate?

I think copies should be sent to all the senators to read. THEY them selves should read it NOT their aides.

I had heard about this book from numerous people and suspected it was interesting...but...onceI actually started it MYSELF...I am appauled and scared because I live so close to Plum island....

daniella

---

Don't think this can be true, since museum specimens more than a hundred years old have been infected with lyme. Of course, they can find it in ancient dried up animals but not in live humans.

This is the authors web site....very imformative.....

Does it say this in the book you have? It would be helpful if we stuck to facts and named sources. Otherwise, we just give ammunition to those trolls who come to this website, find easily discredited information, and then write journal articles saying the website gives out bogus info.

In Karen Forschners book, page 38 of the first edition, it says white footed mice collected in MA in 1894 were DNA tested and positive for lyme.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
white footed mice collected in MA in 1894 were DNA tested and positive for lyme.

---

this is true. and then some.

Lab 257 cannot be corroborated beyond any reasonable doubt.

it is much more likely, in historic models of biological evolution, that global warming (via the rise of the industrial/post industrial world) is responsible for the rise in borrelia and friends.

look at the hot spots - lyme is most often find in major suburbans areas near to cities or industrial centers.

you don't find much lyme in maine or vt (which is heavily wooded but low in emissions and industry) as compared to mass, ny, ct, nj, etc.

'believing' in Lab 257 is like taking the Da Vinci code as gospel.

it makes for a good read.

you've got top justice officers, nazi scientists, biowar materials, etc - did tom clancy write this? - and while there are some facts that are true they are strewn together and exaggerated to sensationalize the fact and ultimately....

... sell ****loads of books (if the author has good PR management).

no one is a reliable source on esoteric and classified endeavors, cum grano salis.

waste of time and energy to get upset by words on paper, better off telling people to ride their bikes and not their cars.

that will realistically slow down lyme disease more than putting a cement seal around the lab at Plum Island.

GOV Cuomo lives in my building, i'll ask him his feelings on the book if i see him in the elevator.

'If we're lucky, someone in the media will read this carefully researched, chilling expose of a potential catastrophe and force the government to do something about it. If not, Mike Carroll's brilliant work will have been wasted and we may be the victims, once again, of government inadvertence.'
--Mario M. Cuomo, former Governor of New York

The books source notes reads like it's own book with sources like many government memorandums and reports.

And a quote from the'note to the reader': " Based largely upon interviews, official documents, and detailed research, this book is also the product of personal visits to Plum island, after the sixth of which I was abruptly denied further access by the U.S. Department of Agriculture, on the grounds of national security."

I reread that part and it only states where Originally the diseases came from, not how they migrated. I've edited my overstatement and yes, you are right to really stick to the facts on this, thanks.

Perhaps an enginered strain of Bb, or co-infection, or both.

(a huge misnomer, I feel..to call it "Lyme"..
noone I know has just Lyme, and I doubt the five or six known possible TB bacterium are coming close to identifying all..)

I think we have some facts, but allot of unknowns..

I'm sure global warming, de-forestation, interuption of eco-systems and deminishing natural predators, pesticide use killing good bugs and mini creatures with the bad..
(the Millbrook studies say that you have less of a problem in forested areas with in tact ecosystems than you do in suburbia, ect)

But I also don't think that's necessarily the whole picture, and the existance of bio-warfare experimentation is a big deal in and of itself, IMO..
who knows, maybe they experimented with tick/other vector proliferation/"hardiness", ect, ect..

I also feel that germ warfare experimentation on Plumb Island (and other locations) would be absolutely impossible to contain due to rodent, bird, and other populations..
when insects/ticks are used as vectors.

Impossible to contain, really. Especially open air, but even otherwise.

Perhaps engineered strains were made to be more transmissable by human vectors.
(similar to Gulf War Mycoplasma and the high incidence in families contracting it from vets)

I think "Lyme" contains some of what was around along time, and lots of other variations, mutations, bits and pieces of stuff that could well be engineered..
it sure acts like it is in many chronic cases...
..due to nature taking it's course in transporting and blending the microbes.

Mo

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
this is true. and then some.

Lab 257 cannot be corroborated beyond any reasonable doubt.

it is much more likely, in historic models of biological evolution, that global warming (via the rise of the industrial/post industrial world) is responsible for the rise in borrelia and friends.>

Zip says:

No. In Europe for example there are many forested areas crawling with Lyme but not near any industrialised centre.

Zip:

Anyone here from Maine or Vt like to comment on that? Esp Maine?

zip:

No all that is demonstrably true.

Are you the same zip zip who posts on sci-med and is freinds with Weisman?
Lisa

<- and while there are some facts that are true they are strewn together and exaggerated to sensationalize the fact and ultimately....

... sell ****loads of books (if the author has good PR management).

no one is a reliable source on esoteric and classified endeavors, cum grano salis.

waste of time and energy to get upset by words on paper, better off telling people to ride their bikes and not their cars.

that will realistically slow down lyme disease more than putting a cement seal around the lab at Plum Island.

GOV Cuomo lives in my building, i'll ask him his feelings on the book if i see him in the elevator.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 28 March 2005).]

---

What the biowarriors do is dangerous, possibly not in complete control, and something the government is not going to give us the details about, especially if they have contributed to an epidemic. If you look at govt goofs in the past, the perpetrators never confess or apologize. It is only years later, if then, that the story comes out and officials make apologies or restitution.

So, I think we should concentrate on the known crimes, not the unknown.

Of course, getting het up about lay people making plumb unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum is probably not worth doing, when the professionals are lying their heads off in published journals and being rewarded for it. It is certainly frightening that the same people doing this are involved in any way with biowarfare. Do we need unscrupulous researchers medalling around in pandora's box? Who needs enemies, with people like this on "our side?"

Zip, can you start off by answering my first question?

And also can you answer the question I've asked you many times, ie - are you the same zippy who posts on sci.med.diseases.lyme and is a great friend of "Weisman"?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lymerayja:
1. You say "Lab 257 cant be corroborated beyond any doubt". What do you mean specificially , Zip? The entire book? The chapter on Lyme? The theory that Lyme-causing borrelia escaped from there? the theory that it was studied there, whether it escaped or not? The idea that ticks were experimented onthere for military purposes? What?

---

It's true governments don't normally admit the truth when they've been responsible for horrendous coverups. But they can sometimes be forced to admit it. In the 80's the French government was guilty of a horrendous scandal involving HIV and donor blood, the Minister went down as a result.

Recently here in the UK a family won compensation , after decades, from the govt which finally admitted liability after the the "common cold" research programme (which continued till fairly recently) their relative had volunteered for had led to his agonising death from the chemical weapons tested on him.

Now all the others involved want to sue too.

You might say, so what if the Lyme epidemic was the result of some horrendous military experiment, what's the use of raking up the past? A fight for compensation would be long and hard and may never be won.

Well, there's lots of answers to that, and the most important of them is this - even today, a fantastic proportion of the Steere camp policy-makers are military officers and/or bioweaponeers. (Of course we can add to that those who do it because of their links with the insurance industry, certain biotech companies etc.)

In other words, we need to understand what happened in the past to understand what is going on in the present, and also to be able to predict the future.

If we'd all understood the military role in the Lyme tragedy, would we ever have trusted a guy like Klempner, for example, who's been involved in bioweapons for years?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
The trouble is that when you mix in all these wild sounding speculations with what is actually no-question-about-it happening in diagnosing and treating the disease, then part A tends to discredit part B.

What the biowarriors do is dangerous, possibly not in complete control, and something the government is not going to give us the details about, especially if they have contributed to an epidemic. If you look at govt goofs in the past, the perpetrators never confess or apologize. It is only years later, if then, that the story comes out and officials make apologies or restitution.

So, I think we should concentrate on the known crimes, not the unknown.

Of course, getting het up about lay people making plumb unsubstantiated claims on an internet forum is probably not worth doing, when the professionals are lying their heads off in published journals and being rewarded for it. It is certainly frightening that the same people doing this are involved in any way with biowarfare. Do we need unscrupulous researchers medalling around in pandora's box? Who needs enemies, with people like this on "our side?"

To Zip - you live in the governor's mansion? Would this be the basement or the attic? Ha, ha. Couldn't resist.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by bettyg:
Where is PLUM Island?

Betty G.

---

Betty, Plum Island is in the eastern tip of Long Island, a tick hop from the town of Lyme, Ct (literally, just across a narrow strip of water which is swum regularly by deer).

If you couldnt find it on your map, it's because the US govt made sure this "civilian facility" was not marked on many maps.

It seems that that..coupled with the known financial ties to the insurance companies..
AND their writings, which have at times been extremely medically/scientifically outlandish and contradictory..
(look at Steere's old writings, for one instance, compared to the new when these concerns/connections became more evident)..

All these things make for a pretty good case to discredit their work..
work which insurance Guidelines and inadequate/dangerous care or lack of are based on for the majority of patients.

If they can be completely discredited, there is a chance that more adequate care can begin to become a possibility..
cases treated early and adequately,chronic cases referred to specialists.. ect, ect, ect..

You know..it's the people that have to make a stink.

It wasn't until Aids activists thrw blood on the steps of St. Patricks cathedral that Docs took that HIV was acknowledged for what it was.

Polly Murray got mothers to band together and find the cause for the children in CT coming down with what looked like rhumetoid arthritis..
(which, by the way, was the initial way this manifested across from Plumb island..with an autoimmune component..a bacteria that evaded and confused the immune response..tangent..sorry)

Amyway..not saying we should become fanatical..
but in this case, the evidence seems piled high for an organized refute..
how can these connections be ignored much longer?

We would need numbers of people who want to act on this. Numbers who have read the book. The author is also a lawyer(interesting note). I wonder what his take on this would be, maybe we should find out.

I believe the book and all of its factual and referential points...

edited for spelling
daniella

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lymerayja:
Speculations that are wild and not backed up by any evidence whatsoever are obviously damaging for us.

That's why I asked Zip to state what he believes should be totally dismissed?

---

well you can't have it both ways.

i don't totally dismiss the book btw, but it is fairly conveniant to lay a befuddled etymology on the doorstep of a singular presentation.

i said there may be some truth, but that it is greatly exaggerated. furthermore it is not corroborated by any other journalists or high ranking professionals... also fairly conveniant.

per example the same 'nazi' scientist Erich Traub has also been the fictionalized culprit of AIDS, ebola, west nile virus, BSE, a multitude of Cancers and practically every other 20th century emerging pathogen.

it's a runaway story, he is the perfect candidate for the sinister evil villain; scientist, german, maybe even a Nazi? it reads like a Tom Clancy novel, or a biomedical version of Die Hard.

in the early 1930's, before the rise of Hitler, Traub was already well established as a scientist in the US at the The Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, Princeton, N. J.

was borrelia tested on by the US govt? probably. i mean they expolded atom bombs in the desert in Nevada afterall.

as you well know, look at what Klempner is doing with Tuleremia in Boston with grant money. but case in point there has been no outbreak of tuleremia in beantown (but a couple of inhouse contiminations unfortunately).

maybe i'm dead wrong about all this, but I highly doubt it. either way i couldn't care less. it is history, real or otherwise, and you can't change it now.

even if it were true, like the US govt would do anything about it. maybe an official apology 50 years after they vaccinated everyone.

the evolutionary model makes plenty of more sense as it is. Lyme, like all diseases and organic forms of life, are part of an interweaved and intelligent pattern.

hardly ever have there been isolated instances by human hands that have significantly changed that pattern. in fact i can't think of one that has significantly altered the world with the exception of Hiroshima and Chernoybl.

case in point - a Stanford study last year showed that global warming led to the death of the passenger piegon in the US in the early 20th century.

at one time it was the most populated bird in America.

the passenger piegon's source of nourishment? ticks.

within the evolutionary model there is certainly room for something like a Plum Island to add insult to injury, but it surely in no way responsible for the pandemic of Lyme.

off topic - i am the one and only zipzip I know of.

weisman is not my 'buddy' by any means, he has plenty of venemous faults, but he certainly is not McSweegan. lol.

regardless that should have no effect on what i think or state anywhere.

As regards Lab 257.

You are saying that Erich Traub has been fictionalised and blamed for every disease under the sun. I don't know, I think most people have never even heard of him till the book Lab 257 came out.

The info that Traub was Hitler's top biowarfare man, that he was recruited by the US after the war, that he was brought to Plum Island, and that he did conduct tick experiments there, originated with John Loftus. Loftus used to work for the Justice Dept., and is the man whose efforts to uncover old nazis still in the woodwork exposed the nazi past of Kurt Waldheim, the Chancellor of Austria and Secretary General of the UN. In other words, an extremely powerful man. Yet Loftus' evidence was so watertight that it brought Waldheim down.

Do you see? Those facts I mentioned above on Traub are no crazy7 "conspiracy theory", but have come from a pretty rock-solid source. Do you think two ex-Governors would have risked their reputations in endorsing a wild conspiracy novel?

You say Traub was already established in the US before the rise of Hitler. Traub belonged to a pro-Nazi club on the east coast, and was working with the Rockefeller Institute AFTER Hitler came to power, and indeed as I said, was publishing in US medical journals right up to the outbreak of the war, 6 years after Hitler came to power.

You say that although Klempner had tularemia escapes in his lab, there's been no escape in Boston yet. That's a very thin argument, zip. Its like a guy who jumps off the roof of a 20 storey building, and as he passes the second floor he says "See, nothing has happened to me so far."

Then you imply that even if Lyme has arisen as a result of things the military did, well, it's history. I am saying no, it's clearly not history, because the Steere camp is dominated by people from that same background (as well as the insurance whores etc) and the result is there is NO POSSIBILITY of true advancement in terms of recognition, proper diagnosis, treatment, search for new cures and allevaiation of mass suffering until this rotten crew is kicked off the playing field.

Just look at the persecution of our LLMDs(which your friend Weisman loves to join in).

I agree that the US (or British or other NATO) governments are not going to do snything about it off their own bat. This is because they have been supporting the cover-up for decades. A military coverup implies a government coverup, as the senior military officers do not have carte blanche to do what they like without agreement at top level.

Because the governments are involved, it will not be enough to simply fund our good doctors to do good research. The good research will be denied exposure in medical journals and the lay media; while the Steere camp crap will be blasted at us from all those sources, plus from the pulpits of CDC and NIH (whose Lyme desks have always been staffed by military and biowarfare types such as Baker, McSweegan, Dennis etc). A good example is the garbagey article sttaing that our good Lyme info sites are spreading misinformation. This article went out on Reuters, potentially reaching millions.

We need to devise ways to expose this huge corruption, because as I say, good science on its own is not enough. Our good docs will get sidelined at best, persecuted at worst, until we make the political stink needed for their voices to be heard.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
well you can't have it both ways.

i don't totally dismiss the book btw, but it is fairly conveniant to lay a befuddled etymology on the doorstep of a singular presentation.

i said there may be some truth, but that it is greatly exaggerated. furthermore it is not corroborated by any other journalists or high ranking professionals... also fairly conveniant.

per example the same 'nazi' scientist Erich Traub has also been the fictionalized culprit of AIDS, ebola, west nile virus, BSE, a multitude of Cancers and practically every other 20th century emerging pathogen.

it's a runaway story, he is the perfect candidate for the sinister evil villain; scientist, german, maybe even a Nazi? it reads like a Tom Clancy novel, or a biomedical version of Die Hard.

in the early 1930's, before the rise of Hitler, Traub was already well established as a scientist in the US at the The Rockefeller Institute for Medical Research, Princeton, N. J.

was borrelia tested on by the US govt? probably. i mean they expolded atom bombs in the desert in Nevada afterall.

as you well know, look at what Klempner is doing with Tuleremia in Boston with grant money. but case in point there has been no outbreak of tuleremia in beantown (but a couple of inhouse contiminations unfortunately).

maybe i'm dead wrong about all this, but I [b]highly doubt it. either way i couldn't care less. it is history, real or otherwise, and you can't change it now.

even if it were true, like the US govt would do anything about it. maybe an official apology 50 years after they vaccinated everyone.

the evolutionary model makes plenty of more sense as it is. Lyme, like all diseases and organic forms of life, are part of an interweaved and intelligent pattern.

hardly ever have there been isolated instances by human hands that have significantly changed that pattern. in fact i can't think of one that has significantly altered the world with the exception of Hiroshima and Chernoybl.

case in point - a Stanford study last year showed that global warming led to the death of the passenger piegon in the US in the early 20th century.

at one time it was the most populated bird in America.

the passenger piegon's source of nourishment? ticks.

within the evolutionary model there is certainly room for something like a Plum Island to add insult to injury, but it surely in no way responsible for the pandemic of Lyme.

off topic - i am the one and only zipzip I know of.

weisman is not my 'buddy' by any means, he has plenty of venemous faults, but he certainly is not McSweegan. lol.

regardless that should have no effect on what i think or state anywhere.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 29 March 2005).][/B]

---

Michael Carroll is connected with a law firm, I am sure there would be many other lawyers and also journalists around the world who would be interested, once all the information is put together, as long as it is backed up by watertight references.

Also, I think we should see Plum Island as only one part of a bigger picture. Military work on tick-borne disease has been carried out here in Britain too (as one example). NATO has supplied funding to ensure that all European Lyme diagnosis and treatment would be "standardised" ie to the appalling Steere camp standards.

What I am saying is that there is potentially a huge number of people who have been hurt by all this, not just in Ct or even in the US.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by daniella:
I feel the same way Mo...
What do we do?
If there is enough info to make an interesting and valid accusation where and how to do it, is the question.

We would need numbers of people who want to act on this. Numbers who have read the book. The author is also a lawyer(interesting note). I wonder what his take on this would be, maybe we should find out.

I believe the book and all of its factual and referential points...

edited for spelling
daniella

[This message has been edited by daniella (edited 29 March 2005).]

---

I definately want to join up and help. Can you give me some info on this...

Lisa--

I definately want to join up and help. Can you give me some info on this...

daniella[/QUOTE]

I want to help. Someone email me.

We can't even get our act together on small lyme activism projects, how in the world are a handful of sick people going to take on something like biowarfare?

Zip, I disagree with the passenger pigeon stuff. Don't know what the Stanford study said, but global warming did not do in this pigeon. Read what Audubon says about the slaughter of these birds long ago. Global warming didn't wipe out the big bison herds or the passenger pigeons. Humans did that.

Just to clarify for Daniella and others, there isn't a formal group working on this stuff (as far as I know), just a loose informal network of individuals from many different places. If people want to set up a formal group, it might a good way to get things on a more organised plane.

It was up till recently a bit risky to even discuss the subject, IMO, but so much has leaked out now, that things have changed. For instance, in the UK, even the Conservative Party have been publicly talking about the Lyme cover up. And you don't get much more conservative than the Conservative Party.

On the pigeon stuff - zippy, I also don't get what you're saying. The passenger pigeons are known to have been wiped out by mass hunting and destruction of their nesting sites by man about 100 years ago. I never heard that they ate ticks.

I don't know about passenger pigeons, but modern pigeons are parasitised by ticks, and birds in general are being recognised more and more as serious culprits of Lyme spread.

An English study of several different types of tick found the highest percent of Lyme infection in Ixodes uriae , the sea-bird tick. Lab 257 has a map that does seem to show that bird fly-routes from Plum Island to the coastal towns do mimic the lines of Lyme spread pretty closely.

But as Bruce said, Plum Island is not the whole story, just a part.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
I am bowing out at this point. In the past I have avoided threads like this. Should have stuck to the policy.

We can't even get our act together on small lyme activism projects, how in the world are a handful of sick people going to take on something like biowarfare?

Zip, I disagree with the passenger pigeon stuff. Don't know what the Stanford study said, but global warming did not do in this pigeon. Read what Audubon says about the slaughter of these birds long ago. Global warming didn't wipe out the big bison herds or the passenger pigeons. Humans did that.

[This message has been edited by lou (edited 30 March 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lymerayja:
We need to devise ways to expose this huge corruption, because as I say, good science on its own is not enough. Our good docs will get sidelined at best, persecuted at worst, until we make the political stink needed for their voices to be heard.

Lisa

---

But what they don't understand, is every time a person finds out the one they love has been disabled through chronic Lyme, and that they have been UNNECESSARILY denied treatment; every parent who is forced to watch the suffering of their child and can do nothing about it, when something can be done about it - all these people potentially turn into 24-hour a day, 7-days a week soldiers in this battle , once they understand what's going on.

Every young person watching their best years evaporate while their friends are out having fun. Every person whose marriage, relationship, family, job, self-respect have been destroyed by this.

Every one who has had to watch a loved one scream or moan from pain that's not touched by our wonder analgesics, or watch someone they love who has gone blind, lost their ability to walk, to talk to remember, to think straight etc etc etc.

Everyone who lost a friend or a lover or a parent or a brother or a son or a daughter through Lyme suicide.

Everyone of those people affected by Lyme and all those close to them, has every reason to fight with everything they've got, once they realise that the so-called Lyme controversy is not a "controversy", but a DELIBERATE cover-up by the Steere camp.

Every day, the Steere camp create thousands of potential soldiers against them who, once understanding the origin of their misery, have no choice but to fight to the bitter end.

Yes, some are overwhelmed, some do commit suicide, and some give in to apathy and just do nothing. But there are enough people out there who would act if only they knew what would be effective.

The day everyone wakes up to what's going on, the Steere camp have a hell of a fight on their hands. Even people who can't stand up can contribute to the fight if they have a computer keyboard or a friend who will tap it for them.

Sure, they may try and kill some of us. There will always be new replacements. They ***** up so many lives, that they create full-time soldiers against themselves every day.

Anyway, the genie is out of the bottle now. None of us wanted to be full-time soldiers fighting them. They forced us to!

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
What can actually be done without getting either stonewalled or killed?

You think I'm joking? But I'm not. I don't see what can be done. People are not going to talk and if they do talk off the record you can't publish it.

---

I just don't see how ordinary people are going to get classified information, just because they or people they love are sick.

Look at all the vets who suffer from depleted uranium, or who got the experimental anthrax vaccine without their knowledge, which contained squalene adjuvant, which is a known autoimmune disease inducer--so many are ill, these are vets, there's a big book out about it, are they being taken care of? Not.

I'm not being negative but there's little likelihood of penetrating the system truly, to get all the secrets out and if you were good enough to get the data you'd probably get killed.

I think its horrible but its part of the military industrial complex and what do they care. They didn't care about nuclear testing. They don't care about young men dying for oil. THey don't care that carelessness put bioweaponized bugs in ticks out into the wild and now because of suburban growth, global warming, and love of Bambi, we've got a deadly epidemic that is ruining lives.

The thing is so big, and there's a pleasure in playing God and letting humans be pawns. There's almost a hidden desire to create suffering even here--not just "there" in the outgroup among the enemy.

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Lisa, re: "Steere camp", it's not that small a thing...one person, one camp.

This is how I really feel but I don't think diverse lyme patients can get proof (Lab 257 is interesting but there's no proof of anything in it so he's safe) and if one of them somehow could (and I'm not volunteering) they would probably die in a mysterious accident.

---

thank you for a realistic viewpoint, you may be the smartest person to post on this thread.

not that i disagree with lisa's last posting at all. i applaud her determinism but it is bordering on the precipe of sheer, futile romanticism.

aka don't shoot for the stars when you can do good work right in your own backyard.

and you can't save everyone, or anyone, (in a non-christian sin/redemption sense) until you save yourself.

unfortunately such rhetoric is so loose to be adaptable to be intepreted in any sense, but i mean it in the simplest, realistic and most rudimentary form.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lou:
Zip, I disagree with the passenger pigeon stuff. Don't know what the Stanford study said, but global warming did not do in this pigeon.

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we are both correct. it is an ecological devastation.

in addition to climate change and hunting rules is the rise of industrialization, suburbanization, clear cutting, agri-business and host of other wonderful evolutionary changes that have disregarded enviromental impact and have led to gross unintended consequences.

here is a good legal history which documents all this, and unlike LAB 257, this is corroborated. but without the nazi spies it is not as delicious of a read. lol.
http://law.wustl.edu/centeris/Confpapers/Chenfinal.html

maybe plum island was a player, but in reality it cannot be counted on as an etyolgy for the rise in borrelia bacterium.

the evolutionary model stands the test of time, unless you are an anti-darwinist jerk.

also i recalled incorectly. the passenger piegon survived on acorns. the same thing that the main agents of lyme disease, the white tailed deer and white footed mouse, subsist on. they didn't actually eat the ticks.

the institute of ecological studies has called it the 'acorn connection'.

stanford excerpt :
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/2004/pr-Birds-0112.html

law of unintended consequences :
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWE/is_12_7/ai_111698192

"Many of you will know about the passenger pigeon, which numbered in the billions in the early part of the 19th century and became extinct when the last known representative, Martha, died in captivity on September 1, 1914.

The size of passenger pigeon flocks were legendary and often estimated to contain as many as 4 billion birds! It must have been an amazing sight as pigeons darkened the skies.

The bird's rapid extinction was primarily us. They were such easy targets that one gunshot could kill a dozen birds. At one time, passenger pigeon hunting competitions were held that required killing a minimum of 30,000 birds to even be close to winning!

Interestingly, Lyme disease, the illness that is spread to thousands of people annually by ticks, is tied to the extinction of the passenger pigeon.

As part of their natural cycle, oak trees produce an extra abundance of acorns every few years. Until they were rendered extinct by human beings, these huge flocks of passenger pigeons thrived on these acorns in northeastern forests.

This additional acorn production by oak trees toppled the dominos in an ecological chain reaction. Acorns attract the two key animals that are critical to Lyme disease dispersion--white-tailed deer and the white-footed mouse.

Both love to eat acorns, and with the vanishing of competition of the passenger pigeons these two animals bred more and provided increasingly hospitable hosts to ticks and their Lyme bacteria.

A century later, when folks walk through the woods in the spring they connect with these ticks and become exposed to Lyme disease.

If the passenger pigeon had survived to help keep the acorn supply in check, would we still have had a Lyme disease epidemic? A simple player change in the ecology can cause major change down the line."

Also, an expose can be done in stages, it need not be all at once.

For me, rather than immediately trying to define what exactly has been done by military scientists and for what noxious purpose, we could start with a small step. The step is this - can we prove that the MAJORITY of the Steere camp are either military officers/biowarfare scientists and/or have a glaring conflict of interest with industry (insurance, Glaxo, test-kit makers etc).

I would postulate that we can prove this ALREADY, without requiring anyone to risk their lives revealing classified information, and using mainly material that's already in the public domain!.

Now, the fact that so many of the top Steere camp swine come from such arenas cannot be a co-incidence.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Lisa, re: "Steere camp", it's not that small a thing...one person, one camp.

I just don't see how ordinary people are going to get classified information, just because they or people they love are sick.

Look at all the vets who suffer from depleted uranium, or who got the experimental anthrax vaccine without their knowledge, which contained squalene adjuvant, which is a known autoimmune disease inducer--so many are ill, these are vets, there's a big book out about it, are they being taken care of? Not.

I'm not being negative but there's little likelihood of penetrating the system truly, to get all the secrets out and if you were good enough to get the data you'd probably get killed.

I think its horrible but its part of the military industrial complex and what do they care. They didn't care about nuclear testing. They don't care about young men dying for oil. THey don't care that carelessness put bioweaponized bugs in ticks out into the wild and now because of suburban growth, global warming, and love of Bambi, we've got a deadly epidemic that is ruining lives.

The thing is so big, and there's a pleasure in playing God and letting humans be pawns. There's almost a hidden desire to create suffering even here--not just "there" in the outgroup among the enemy.

This is how I really feel but I don't think diverse lyme patients can get proof (Lab 257 is interesting but there's no proof of anything in it so he's safe) and if one of them somehow could (and I'm not volunteering) they would probably die in a mysterious accident.

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I have already confronted you in the thread called "Zipzip, Weisman etc" and asked you why you are so friendly to a man who constantly heaps hatred on the whole of LymeNet, condemns the whole of ILADS, and organises the active persecution of people who speak out vocally against the Steere camp?

I'm talking about the weasel called "A Weisman" on the usenet, of course. And all you can say is that you have "no problem" with him.

Then you come in here and try and discourage people from exposing the huge conflicts of interest the Steere camp with the military and with insurance and other corporations.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by zipzip:

aka don't shoot for the stars when you can do good work right in your own backyard.

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I have already pointed out to you that msome of the most important facts in Lab 257 have been corroborated by a guy whose evidence was powerful enough to bring down the former secretary general of the UN and chancellor of Austria, but you just keep repeating that the book is "not corroborated".

You make fun of it as sensationalism and "nazi spy" stories etc..

You've read the book. So you should know, that the book does not refer to any Nazi "spy" at all. It refers to a Nazi who was Hitler's top biowarfareman, who was DELIBERATELY RECRUITED by the US government (and by the way, the British were interested in him too)as part of their cold war effort.

It explains that this man (Traub) was a founding father of Plum Island, and was even invited to head it!

It explains that he was engaged in tick experimentation there, at a time when offensive biowarfare was still respectable, and an openly admitted military policy of the US.

All of which is corroborated by John Loftus, the unimpeachable source mentioned above.

Now let's imagine for a moment that you are right, zipzap, and the tick experiments on Plum island did not involve zoonotic diseases, or the risk of creating zoonotic diseases, and in fact, the Lyme pandemic today has no connection with any military issue anywhere in the world at any time, but is the result of the decimation of the passenger pigeon population in the eastern US at the end of the 19th century (with nearly a 100 year gap till the appearance of the problem).

Why the hell then is the Steere camp run by military types instead of ornithologists?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:

here is a good legal history which documents all this, and unlike LAB 257, this is corroborated. but without the nazi spies it is not as delicious of a read. lol.
http://law.wustl.edu/centeris/Confpapers/Chenfinal.html

maybe plum island was a player, but in reality it cannot be counted on as an etyolgy for the rise in borrelia bacterium.

the evolutionary model stands the test of time, unless you are an anti-darwinist jerk.

also i recalled incorectly. the passenger piegon survived on acorns. the same thing that the main agents of lyme disease, the white tailed deer and white footed mouse, subsist on. they didn't actually eat the ticks.

the institute of ecological studies has called it the 'acorn connection'.

stanford excerpt :
http://www.stanford.edu/dept/news/pr/2004/pr-Birds-0112.html

law of unintended consequences :
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FWE/is_12_7/ai_111698192

"Many of you will know about the passenger pigeon, which numbered in the billions in the early part of the 19th century and became extinct when the last known representative, Martha, died in captivity on September 1, 1914.

The size of passenger pigeon flocks were legendary and often estimated to contain as many as 4 billion birds! It must have been an amazing sight as pigeons darkened the skies.

The bird's rapid extinction was primarily us. They were such easy targets that one gunshot could kill a dozen birds. At one time, passenger pigeon hunting competitions were held that required killing a minimum of 30,000 birds to even be close to winning!

Interestingly, Lyme disease, the illness that is spread to thousands of people annually by ticks, is tied to the extinction of the passenger pigeon.

As part of their natural cycle, oak trees produce an extra abundance of acorns every few years. Until they were rendered extinct by human beings, these huge flocks of passenger pigeons thrived on these acorns in northeastern forests.

This additional acorn production by oak trees toppled the dominos in an ecological chain reaction. Acorns attract the two key animals that are critical to Lyme disease dispersion--white-tailed deer and the white-footed mouse.

Both love to eat acorns, and with the vanishing of competition of the passenger pigeons these two animals bred more and provided increasingly hospitable hosts to ticks and their Lyme bacteria.

A century later, when folks walk through the woods in the spring they connect with these ticks and become exposed to Lyme disease.

If the passenger pigeon had survived to help keep the acorn supply in check, would we still have had a Lyme disease epidemic? A simple player change in the ecology can cause major change down the line."

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 30 March 2005).]

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Project PAPERCLIP: www.spitfirelist.com/f480.html

``A biological warfare mercenary who worked under three flags--Nazi Germany, the Soviet Union, and the United States--Traub was never investigated for war crimes. He escaped any inquiry into his wartime past. The full extent of his sordid endeavors went with him to his grave.

While America brought a handful of Nazi war criminals to justice, it safeguarded many others in exchange for verses to the new state religion--modern science and espionage.

Records detailing a fraction of Eric Traub's activities are now available to the public, but most are withheld by Army intelligence and the CIA on grounds of national security. But there's enough of a glimpse to draw quite a sketch.'' (Ibid.; p. 11.)

11. An important chapter in the story of how the inquiry into the possible link between Plum Island, Erich Traub's work on behalf of the US and the spread of Lyme Disease concerns the work of former Justice Department prosecutor John Loftus.

In his book The Belarus Secret, Loftus referred to work done on Plum Island in the early 1950's in which Nazi scientists were experimenting on diseased ticks. Might that have referred to Traub?!

`` . . . Attorney John Loftus was hired in 1979 by the Office of Special Investigations, a unit set up by the Justice Department to expose Nazi war crimes and unearth Nazis hiding in the United States. Given top-secret clearance to review files that had been sealed for thirty-five years, Loftus found a treasure trove of information on America's postwar Nazi recruiting.

In 1982, publicly challenging the government's complacency with the wrongdoing, he told 60 minutes that top Nazi officers had been protected and harbored in America by the CIA and the State Department. `They got the Emmy Award,' Loftus wrote. `My family got the death threats.''' (Ibid.; p. 13.)

12. ``Old spies reached out to him after the publication of his book, The Belarus Secret, encouraged that he--unlike other authors--submitted his manuscript to the government, agreeing to censor portions to protect national security. The spooks gave him copies of secret documents and told him stories of clandestine operations.

From these leads, Loftus ferreted out the dubious Nazi past of Austrian president and U.N. secretary general Kurt Waldheim. Loftus revealed that during World War II, Waldheim had been an officer in a German Army unit that committed atrocities in Yugoslavia. A disgraced Kurt Waldheim faded from the international scene soon thereafter.'' (Idem.)

13. ``In the preface of The Belarus Secret, Loftus laid out a striking piece of information gleaned from his spy network: `Even more disturbing are the records of the Nazi germ warfare scientists who came to America.

They experimented with poison ticks dropped from planes to spread rare diseases. I have received some information suggesting that the U.S. tested some of these poison ticks on the Plum Island artillery range off the coast of Connecticut during the early 1950's. . . .Most of the germ warfare records have been shredded, but there is a top secret U.S. document confirming that `clandestine attacks on crops and animals' took place at this time.'' (Idem.)

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by laserred:
No comments, just following this thread and found this site interesting...I believe when reading it I saw where it stated 'when the (2) boxes of files were opened they were found empty'.

Project PAPERCLIP: www.spitfirelist.com/f480.html

[This message has been edited by laserred (edited 30 March 2005).]

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There is plenty of Lyme in Maine, though not as much as in CT. (I was infectd in CT, recently moved to ME.) The YahooGroup for Mainers with Lyme currently numbers 134. There are virtually no LLMDs here, and little knowledge of Lyme in the general population here, so I would guess the undiagnosed, unreported cases are high. They say that Lyme is more prevalent on the coast -- makes sense, aligns with the flight paths of migrating birds.

I agree that Plum Island experimentation MAY have contributed to the spread of TBD, although it did not create the disease. It seems there are many other factors as well. Perhaps shedding light on this connection will help this country wake up to the need for accurate testing, diagnosis, and treatment.

HOWEVER, I think we also have to pick our battles. I would hate to see lots of time and talent wasted on trying to prove the truth of the Plum Island connection, when people are still in more immediate need of help. And screaming about conspiracies is always a good way to not get your message heard.

David Noble was a guy at MIT who was fired for blowing the whistle on connections between academia and the military-industrial complex. He then was going to get a special appt at MacLean, unanimously recommended, and I think, the dean nixxed it.

You *could* make a point finding out how many prominent researchers in what we regard as the old-boy network (those who downplay lyme and downplay longterm abx treatment etc) have links to the military-industrial complex but if David Noble got fired for it, and if its widespread in academia anyway, what makes you think you will get anywhere?

Don't get me wrong I feel the same way you do. I actually think we made virulent bugs and a whole soup of them and then because labs are careless they got out there, and people's lives are ruined as a result. Besides, bacteria exchange genes so it's kind of like genetically engineered corn--which is contaminating organic crops now. Once its out there, if it helps the organism survive, it'll easily 'pollinate' previously less virulent versions.

quote:

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Originally posted by bettyg:
Where is PLUM Island?

Betty G.

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Inventors: Lo; Shyh-Ching (Potomac, MD)

LAB: 257 Plum Island
The Disturbing Story of the Government's Secret Plum Island Germ Laboratory

by Michael C Carroll

Nestled near the Hamptons, the fashionable summer playground of America's rich and famous, and in the shadow of New York City, lies an unimposing 840-acre island unidentified on most maps. On the few on which it can be found, Plum Island is marked red or yellow, and stamped U.S. government--restricted or dangerous animal diseases. Though many people live the good life within a scant mile or two from its shores, few know the name of this pork chop-shaped island. Even fewer can say whether it is inhabited, or why it doesn't exist on the map. That's all about to change.

Lab 257: The Disturbing Story of the Government's Secret Plum Island Germ Laboratory blows the lid off the stunning true nature and checkered history of Plum Island. It shows that the seemingly bucolic island on the edge of the largest population center in the United States is a ticking biological time bomb that none of us can safely ignore.

Based on innumerable declassified government documents, scores of in- depth interviews, and access to Plum Island itself, this is an eye- opening, suspenseful account of a federal government germ laboratory gone terribly wrong. For the first time, Lab 257 takes you deep inside this secret world and presents startling revelations including virus outbreaks, biological meltdowns, infected workers who were denied assistance in diagnosis by Plum Island brass, the periodic flushing of contaminated raw sewage into area waters, and the insidious connections between Plum Island, Lyme disease, and the deadly 1999 West Nile virus outbreak.

An exploration of the complex world of microbiology, viruses, and bacteria, Lab 257 also shows how the U.S. Department of Agriculture, which ran Plum Island for the last half century, is far more than wholesome grade-A eggs and the food pyramid. The book probes what's in store for Plum Island's new owner, the Department of Homeland Security, in this age of bioterrorism. And for those interested in questions of national security and safety, it is a call to action for those concerned with protecting present and future generations from preventable biological catastrophes.

Lab 257 will change forever our current understanding of Plum Island - - a place that is, in the words of one insider, "a biological Three Mile Island."
From http://www.canlyme.com/lab257.html

However, because there has recently been a public fuss about this, and plenty of exposes in the media, some of this is finally beginning to change. (Very slowly, I admit).

NIH recently had to announce they were doing away with their conflicts of interest (which would be like a skunk opting for fragrance-free - we'll believe it when we see it/smell it). But the fact that Dr Zerhouni , the director, felt the need to annoounce this... well, it's a start.

What's different about the Lyme fraud is the role of the military - I dont think thats widespread in other diseases.

You ask what's the use even if we can prove that most of the Steere camp, or "old-boy network" as you called it, are military/biowar types, and you say, isn't it better to look for a cure?

Well, my take is this. Let's assume that the military did some nasty things in the past with some borrelia species. (It's known for a fact that the Japanese expeimented with borrelia genus in WW2, and their personnel were later recruited by the US.)

Given that the military are still dominating the Lyme scene, why should we assume that whatever interest they had in borrelia in the past is now over? Or even, that the only reason they are still there, running the Lyme show, is because they want to cover up some past mistakes and/or deliberate nastiness?

Do you guys and gals not think it is possible that the military (and not just of US) might STILL be interested in borrelia right now, today?

And that work on enhanced virulence, etc, may not just be past work, but ongoing?

Now, if this last scenario is correct, it means that the Steere camp will be controlling the flow of information about this disease, in order to prevent any facts coming out which may hinder or conflict with their perceived goals in any way.

Remember that military scientists have very different priorities to civilian doctors.

If finding a cure conflicts with a military goal, or requires the release of information which the military would rather is hidden, which do you think they will choose?

And if some honest doctor, scientist, lab researcher, Nobel Prize winner etc etc stumbles upon a bit of truth that could potentially help hundreds of thousands of Lymies, but interferes with some nutty general's dream, what do you think they will do?

That's why I say that we need to unseat this evil crew before we can ever make real progress. And exposing them is a start.

Besides, if we dont take notice of who they are and what they are up to, we make bad mistakes, as I said. Like trusting Klempner.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
You *could* make a point finding out how many prominent researchers in what we regard as the old-boy network (those who downplay lyme and downplay longterm abx treatment etc) have links to the military-industrial complex but if David Noble got fired for it, and if its widespread in academia anyway, what makes you think you will get anywhere?

Don't get me wrong I feel the same way you do. I actually think we made virulent bugs and a whole soup of them and then because labs are careless they got out there, and people's lives are ruined as a result. Besides, bacteria exchange genes so it's kind of like genetically engineered corn--which is contaminating organic crops now. Once its out there, if it helps the organism survive, it'll easily 'pollinate' previously less virulent versions.

WHat are we going to do? I'd rather look for an easier cure. Some people DO get much better or well on a few months or years of highlevel meds. But some people still relapse off them. And some people even tho improved are 'never quite the same'. And others can't get better enough no matter what or can't tolerate that amount of meds (like me). I'd rather look for a novel cure. Thats where teh energy should be focussed. Exposing the source, what good does it do? Its out there already and infecting people right and left.

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Are you well?
If not, better to try and figure out a way to cure this quickly and easily, not without all this sturm and drang people go through.

However, governmental malfeasance or intentional coverup for various reasons may help explain the pervasive beyond reason denials and scientific misconduct which has been perpetrated by steerites and government officials with regard to lyme disease.

Some of these steerites are quite vicious human beings. Recognizing the governments inability to regulate their actions because to do so would be to acknowledge certain truths about LD which would be damaging to the government and other entities, these creatures are in every sense of the phrase foxes guarding the henhouse.

Migratory patterns of birds does not serve to adequately explain the increased prevalence of LD in certain areas.

Very important flyways in other parts of the country are virtually devoid of Bb s.s. Bb is not seen in wintering grounds of many of the east coast migratories, even though it has been demonstrated that migration stress activates Borrelia infection, for instance.

Deer population density is correlated with Bb prevalence, but this is also not an answer in and of itself because there are heavy populations of deer in other parts of the country (even corresponding with migratory flyways) that have low Bb seropositivity.

I think it is more climatological. Bb s.s. infected ticks are most common in a certain type of environment containing deciduous trees, leaf litter, decent humidity, etc. The presence of deer is like throwing gasoline on a fire.

However we must not forget that there are species such as B. lonestari which are found in ticks in different environments possibly adapting cycle of infection to warmer and drier conditions. Not much is known about lonestari or other as yet undiscovered spirochetes.

I believe that our government should take strong action to reduce and/or eliminate the deer population especially in the US east of the rockies. Say, back to 1900 levels. When we still had the passenger pigeon.

quote:

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Originally posted by shazdancer:
I just wanted to weigh in on a couple of points.

There is plenty of Lyme in Maine, though not as much as in CT. (I was infectd in CT, recently moved to ME.) The YahooGroup for Mainers with Lyme currently numbers 134. There are virtually no LLMDs here, and little knowledge of Lyme in the general population here, so I would guess the undiagnosed, unreported cases are high. They say that Lyme is more prevalent on the coast -- makes sense, aligns with the flight paths of migrating birds.

I agree that Plum Island experimentation MAY have contributed to the spread of TBD, although it did not create the disease. It seems there are many other factors as well. Perhaps shedding light on this connection will help this country wake up to the need for accurate testing, diagnosis, and treatment.

HOWEVER, I think we also have to pick our battles. I would hate to see lots of time and talent wasted on trying to prove the truth of the Plum Island connection, when people are still in more immediate need of help. And screaming about conspiracies is always a good way to not get your message heard.

Regards,
Shaz

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The whole process stinks and it just doesn't make sense. From diagnosis to Treatment to Politics to Ignorance. LD/West Nile/AIDS all hitting so hard in the past 30+ years...coincidental? These are not just bacterias and viruses - they are SMART....as though they have been evolutionized (probably not a real word).

I am less ill than most Lymies I know, so yes, I have the energy to fight the Steere camp. I am more fortunate than most Lymies in that respect.

In other respects, less fortunate.

Maybe my motivation is higher than some others, because the Steere camp have taken from me something more important to me than my own life. And left me with no choice but to spend every ounce of energy and every spare minute fighting them.

I would much rather sit at home and bake cookies and wash clothes and wrap birthday presents.

But by the looks of things, it seems, the Steere camp prefer to have me engaged in studying their connections with biological warfare, Kaiser Permanente and Glaxo SmithKline.

Their choice, not mine.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Yes, its true, the bioweaponization goes on, and often openly. I recall an article in New Scientist about a lab in England attempting to make avian viruses jump species, because, supposedly, if we can do it nature can do it so we'd better try to do it and then be prepared. Nice reasoning.

Are you well?
If not, better to try and figure out a way to cure this quickly and easily, not without all this sturm and drang people go through.

I'm not sure what that way is but I have some ideas. I prefer to pursue those, with nutraceutical and pharmaceutical companies, rather than try to stop this big machinery. But I wish you well .

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We all have our different talents, strategies etc. For me, it's sooo much unecessary suffering. Reading Rebecca Well's story (ya ya sisterhood)--7 years of agony. Now she's grateful to be able to fricken WALK to her desk. She will be on antibiotics and antimalarials for years, I'm assuming. Amy Tan is 90% better, that's great, I will feel most reassured when she gets off abx and stays well.

Why should anyone have to be on all these toxic drugs for years?

So my thinking is, let's find something that works. It really isn't that pie in the sky, its just notbody is focussing on it. I see a recent news item that a new and upcoming antifungal is proving both nontoxic and effective in chagas' disease which is about as bad as lyme and prevalent in south america and kills people through cardiac problems.