However, I can't help but feel that perhaps for a large number of people, there ALREADY is an answer but they won't let those who could benefit have it or know about it.

There have been cases of spontaneous remission or even apparent cure, which suggests that it might not be so difficult for medicine to effect this, if only the physiological mechanism causing the disappearance of symptoms was known.

Or if only the honest clinicians studying what they see in their patients, and the honest lab scientists, agricultural researchers etc could be permitted to do their work without fear of persecution.

The military would not be so stupid as to weaponise something when they had no antidote.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by oxygenbabe:
Keep us posted, Lisa.

We all have our different talents, strategies etc. For me, it's sooo much unecessary suffering. Reading Rebecca Well's story (ya ya sisterhood)--7 years of agony. Now she's grateful to be able to fricken WALK to her desk. She will be on antibiotics and antimalarials for years, I'm assuming. Amy Tan is 90% better, that's great, I will feel most reassured when she gets off abx and stays well.

Why should anyone have to be on all these toxic drugs for years?

So my thinking is, let's find something that works. It really isn't that pie in the sky, its just notbody is focussing on it. I see a recent news item that a new and upcoming antifungal is proving both nontoxic and effective in chagas' disease which is about as bad as lyme and prevalent in south america and kills people through cardiac problems.

If somebody would put some research into lyme like this either existing drugs or new drugs would prove effective. Maybe even novel nutraceuticals. So I am pursuing two avenues. I don't think either one is at all unlikely to work, its just getting people interested. I have one place interested in making what I suggested. I haven't contacted the other, a pharma, but I will when I get a chance. They are making other novel products for common deadly infections.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
These are not just bacterias and viruses - they are SMART....as though they have been evolutionized (probably not a real word).

I agree with Lymerayja (p.s. I was there as a visitor). The question now is what CAN we do as a group?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by daniella:
I am appauled!!! I am reading it now....

The lyme chapter is what really peeved me. These co-infections are all native to other countries, not ours.

Lyme disease was even only a bacteria found in Europe. But it became a problem here shortly after the government was experimenting with infected ticks on Plum island. a german ex nazi headed up the Plum island experiments on infected ticks.

I think if this information is accurate it should warrent legal action...for infecting us..

You guys have any input...Is the book factualy accurate?

I think copies should be sent to all the senators to read. THEY them selves should read it NOT their aides.

I had heard about this book from numerous people and suspected it was interesting...but...onceI actually started it MYSELF...I am appauled and scared because I live so close to Plum island....

daniella

[This message has been edited by daniella (edited 28 March 2005).]

[This message has been edited by daniella (edited 28 March 2005).]

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Mo:

Somewhat related:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/bioterror/biow_popov.html

---

Thanks for posting this, Mo. I'd read part of this before, but it's really interesting to go back and read the whole.

The link concerns Sergei Popov, an old Soviet biowarman who now works for the US. Here are some bits of the interview which IMO are especially interesting:

"[There were] multiple levels of secrecy -- so that some people didn't know anything about the true direction of research. Some people knew just the so-called "closed legend," which was specially prepared information for those people and for the outside world."

Hmmmmm. Is the science published by Steere, Barbour, Klempner et al (all of whom have elite military background in Infectious Disease), and endorsed by the bioweapons men at NIH (McSweegan, Baker) and CDC just a "closed legend" for us?

Popov describes how scientists who were involved in a research project THEMSELVES would have no idea of the true goal of the research. We can imagine men and women working away on studying the virulence determinants of a particular microbe, believeing they are doing research to protect people, when in fact the results of their research are intended to be used to make weapons of mass destruction that will kill young and old alike (or mass incapacitation).

Look at this bit:
"Initially I was involved in the production of synthetic genes. That means we created in tubes, in vitro, [gene] constructs that did not exist in nature.

"The hope was, making those constructs, it would be possible to provide bacterial agents and viruses completely new properties which they did not have in natural conditions.

"So, for example, a virus could produce something absolutely difficult to imagine in natural circumstances, like peptides which destroy the immune system in a very special way."

I'm not sure I even want to think about what that means. And I'm sure it was not only the Soviets who were working on these things.

"My most successful research was the finding that a bacteria called Legionella could be modified in such a way that it could induce severe nervous system disease. And the symptoms of nervous disorders [similar to those of multiple sclerosis] would appear several days after the bacterial disease was completely "cured." So there would be no bacterial agent, but symptoms -- new and unusual symptoms -- would appear several days later.

NOVA: What would be the point of that?

Popov: Imagine a new weapon which is difficult to diagnose initially and then which is impossible to treat with conventional antibiotics. That would be [a good weapon] from the point of view of [masking] who originated the problem."

Or a weapon which can be treated with conventional antibiotics, but only if these are administered immediately after the tickbite, and in a strong enough dose and duration.

But the Steere camp have always been resistant to treating on tick attachment, and some of them have gone to extraordinary lengths to convince us not to.

You guys have a wealth of info on this stuff. Very interesting to read...

is lyme disease (and other "new" chronic debilitating illnesses) part of population control?

Out of 11 people in our family 8 of us are very ill...coincidence? My sister and I used to kind of joke around ...wondering how many handicap car plates one family can have.

I had a few laughs back then because we had always made fun of ourselves and our dysfunctional family, as a way to cope with the pain, but it seemed so odd that one family could get so many illnesses.

that was before I knew I had chronic lyme and had unknowingly passed it on to my children.

...that was before I knew what I know now.

since my re-diagnosis I have followed the bread crumb trails.

the CDC told me I was CURED back in '85.

I started to ask my self...how is that all of the drs. that I saw for 20 years missed this ? How could all of the endocrinologists, infectious disease drs, rheumatologists, neurologists, orthopedics, general practioners NEVER diagnosis me with this glaring cluster of symptoms?

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
Does anyone ever wonder....

is lyme disease (and other "new" chronic debilitating illnesses) part of population control?

---

Lyme, dislike AIDS, is rarely fatal. in fact the opposite unintended consequences fall here.

a population that is ill can not work hence it is not a taxable source of income (the pre-eminant reason for the state institution).

furthermore an ill population, or minority there of, is a human capital (comprosing economic, military and civil) drain on society as a whole.

quote:

---

Out of 11 people in our family 8 of us are very ill...coincidence?

---

that is unfortunate, my condolenses, but that is surely not the norm.

while we have many new diseases in our advanced, evolved world human kind has also eradicated, or come close to eradicating, many petulant diseases that were not controllable before, i.e. polio.

we have also extended by major leaps both the world birth expentancy and death rates (in the great majority of countries anyhow).

a century ago if you had 11 people in your family a quarter of them probably would not have lived to see 25 and the oldest probably wouldn't have passed 70.

life exptancy in the 1900 US census was 47.3 years, the 2000 US census had it at 76.9 years.

that increase is with the population tripling in the 20th century despite the included calculating in of two world wars worth of casualties, Vietnam, the toll of AIDS, rising coronary disease (often dependent on lifestyle), cancer (age & industrialized atmosphere) and automobile deaths.

to wax philosophic and anthropologic...

... the fact that human beings exist at all in a world made up of billions of particles of bacteria, viruses and fungi is in fact the greatest evolutionary achievement of all.

in a perfect world not only would humans exist, but they/we would all exist both healthy and happy. unfortunately we are far from a utopian universe.

but to argue that we are more ill as a world population today than yesteryear, the centuries or millenia before now is ludicrous.

there are much more simple explanations than far reaching conspiracy theories, not that there isn't nefarous and dubious ongoings often a foot but they can neither be quantified or qualified.

to do otherwise is like counting your chickens before they hatch without ever even having seen a chickencoop.

A very interesting read.

"a slam dunk!" george tenet whispered with enthusiasm.

even Iraqi insiders and ex-nationals said that in addition to the Americans, British, Dutch, Spanish, Italians, Isrealis, Jordanians, Saudis...........

Based on experience, I have to vehemently disagree with your first statement that lyme is rarely fatal. Having had three life-threatening brain infections due to lyme, with the last being a near-death experience, no one will ever be able to tell me that lyme isn't fatal. I know it is. I lived it, died it, and lived it again.

The word that one could use to sidetrack others from this truth would be RARE. But, how is anyone who really has lyme and dilivers that message helping the cause. Basically, you are saying, ``oh, it's not that seriouse.'' Are you kidding me. My sister-in-law, who has HIV and was close to death is doing better than I am. She is living a full life. The research dollars have gone to her cause.

There are more casualties due to lyme complications than anyone is even aware of, because no one has been tracking this...perhaps because no one cares about these statistics? How many deaths from cardiovascular disease are actually due to lyme? I wonder how many suicides, especially the teen population since the numbers are so staggering, actually had lyme disease. The suicide rates for teens parallels the increase in lyme disease - the fastests growing infectious disease in the world. I'm sure there could be many other factors for the suicides, however, until someone recognizes this hidden gem, the statistics won't be available. Since lyme hits so many organ systems - how does any one know that John Doe's kidney failure wasn't really due to lyme.

WE have been denied the truth. I won't hear otherwise. The CDC personally delivered my original diagnosis and told me I was cured after my recommended treatment. They have known these past 20 years that I have had lyme. If they were going to contact me because they were afraid I might have Hep. C because of a blood transfusion, why not mention that by the way, you might still have lyme based on what we know to date.

You mentioned philosophy

Well my thoughts reflect certain philosophical, spiritual and theologian stances as well. However, my opinion just comes from woman's intuition and experience. I can tell you with the utmost confidence that I didn't go to more than 100 doctors and world-renowned specialists in the country for 20 years...and they just all happened to MISS the fact that I had lyme...even when I listed that I had lyme back in `85. No one will ever convince me that was an oops.

the fact that you don't want to look at any of this as conspiracy.....is a red flag for me. You seem a bit too casual about the whole thing.

Mark my words. We are going to see many more WHOLE families being devastated by this disease.

You can argue that this all this disease is doing is producing ``human capital societal drain'' While that fact is true, it still doesn't preclude people from dying from this disease. You can't deny that some people with this disease are not getting the treatment they need to make them well. Honestly, we both know these individuals aren't going to just get better without proper threatment. So what direction do you think they are going to go in?

It's like those with HIV or AIDs....they are not just worried about the virus, they need to be cautious about the opportunistic infections.

You mentioned that a century ago a quarter of my family would be gone. That statement has no merit here. Again, are you kidding me? Who are you trying to persuade of what with this kind of argument. These are SUDDEN influences affecting our health in the past 20-30 years. AND, we know that the governments have the patents on these.

From another post of mine: I think that anyone who has truly suffered with lyme disease would say that SOMETHING JUST ISN'T RIGHT. That something is a COVER-UP. To think otherwise would be one just one more insult to our intelligence.

The whole process stinks and it just doesn't make sense. From diagnosis to Treatment to Politics to Ignorance. LD/West Nile/AIDS all hitting so hard in the past 30+ years...coincidental? These are not just bacterias and viruses - they are SMART....as though they have been evolutionized (probably not a real word).

Whatever.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:

The word that one could use to sidetrack others from this truth would be RARE. But, how is anyone who really has lyme and dilivers that message helping the cause

---

the cause?

you don't help any cause by exaggerating the truth. i have heard of at least 4 to 5 people who's spouses believed they have family members that died from cardiovascular problems from Lyme disease.

of course it's serious, of course it happens. but to put Lyme disease on the same level as AIDS is ridiculous.

there are tens of millions of people dying globally from AIDS. and you think Lyme is equatable on the mortality level as that?

furthermore Lyme, in the chronic in addition to the acute stage can be treatable, though there are many failures. AIDS, though some people do fairly well, is an uphill battle to the grave for 95%.

quote:

---

WE have been denied the truth. I won't hear otherwise.

---

in otherwords your mind is made up and you are going to believe what you want to believe regardless of anything said by anyone (unless of course they agree with you).

so i have no point in advancing a dead conversation then.

by the way philosophy is never intutition.

and as far as smart viruses there is no reason to believe that they are more likely to be made in lab than by nature itself.

nature is in a constant battle, as our weapons against disease get stronger, the diseases in turn get stronger so that they can live and flourish as well.

that is evolution.

quote:

---

The whole process stinks and it just doesn't make sense. From diagnosis to Treatment to Politics to Ignorance.

---

that we can easily agree upon.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:
[B]Does anyone ever wonder....

is lyme disease (and other "new" chronic debilitating illnesses) part of population control?
..B]

---

I don't really think Lyme was worked on by the bioweaponeers for population control, although it's true that some of the culprits have roots that trace back to eugenicist organisations, and of course the Nazis like Traub were all about eliminating "bad" races.

IMO it was more likely they were interested in its properties as an incapacitant.

Producing a huge range of symptoms, not showing up on routine tests, evading the immune system and possible combining with co-infections - what could be better for totally baffling the doctors of the target group?

Borrelia aside, tick-borne disease has ALWAYS been of great interest to the military (tularemia, Q fever, Crimean-congo haemorrhagic fever etc etc)

Lisa

Lisa

A LLMD told me that he personally knew at least 100 families where multiple members had come down with Lyme.

The Steere camp are STILL playing down and even denying altogether the risk of passing Lyme to the unborn child even today!

For instance that deranged Dr McSweegan with his "Quackwatch" disinformation site.

And despite the fact that Steere himself once admitted that Lyme can be acquired congenitally in a published paper, and Dr Wilske (Steere camp leading lady in Europe) autopsied a stillborn baby of a Lyme mother and found borrelia.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paisley:

Out of 11 people in our family 8 of us are very ill...coincidence? My sister and I used to kind of joke around ...wondering how many handicap car plates one family can have.

I had a few laughs back then because we had always made fun of ourselves and our dysfunctional family, as a way to cope with the pain, but it seemed so odd that one family could get so many illnesses.

that was before I knew I had chronic lyme and had unknowingly passed it on to my children.

...that was before I knew what I know now.

since my re-diagnosis I have followed the bread crumb trails.

the CDC told me I was CURED back in '85.

I started to ask my self...how is that all of the drs. that I saw for 20 years missed this ? How could all of the endocrinologists, infectious disease drs, rheumatologists, neurologists, orthopedics, general practioners NEVER diagnosis me with this glaring cluster of symptoms?

I feel like the stupid head now. I put all of my faith in the wrong place.

---

The article about anthrax contains some true information, but also mixes in some complete nonsense, eg it states that Germany had almost no biological/chemical programme (?) in WW2 because Hitler couldn't bear to use gases???!!!!

Oh common, what the hell was Auschwitz?

Also, we now know, thanks to the leaks from the intelligence community that John Loftus got hold of, that Hitler very much DID have a biowar programme, and its head ,Erich Traub, was recruited by the US to train up staff in OPEN AIR experiments on Plum Island with tick pathogens.

No disrespect to you, but we do have to be very careful and critical in where we look for our sources of information. If you go on the homepage of the worldnet site, you'll see it's all about blaming immigrants for the problems of America and setting up vigilante groups against them.

This is racist crap. After all, the whole of America is immigrants except for the Native Americans, and the same with the "indigenous" foreigner-hating British who forget they themselves are all descended from Scandinavians, Frenchmen and other foreign ethnic groups.

But seriously, we do need to beware. There IS a lot of crap out there, and the neo-nazis and some bizarre extremist cult groups are out there trying to jump on the bandwagon, talking about Lyme and biowarfare too.

IMO we have to use only watertight evidence from the most reliable, and verifiable sources, otherwise we will be laughed as conspiracy theorists.

And in fact Greatcod is right, much of the information proving the biowar, insurance and other corrupt corporate connections of the Steere camp are right out there in the public domain, where anyone can find it, because they've never hidden it very well. There's no need for us to consult any of these crazy neonazi or cultist groups.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corinne E:
Have a gander at these two sites:

Corinne

---

Yes, we have raised longevity and got rid of many old infectious scourges in the west, but we have turned the ex Soviet Union, which used to have a life expectancy like the west's, into a semi-third-world environment where men live to 56. (And that's not a plug for the old Soviet regime, just a statement of fact.)

In 1918 a terrible flu strain killed more people than the First World War, now a crazy NIH ex-Lyme program officer and biowarman wants to dig up the corpses to isolate the strain.

We could probably sort out the problems of the Third World easily but instead we (or rather, our multinational big Pharma corporations), make them pay through the nose for AIDS drugs they cannot afford so any progress in the west passes them by.

Same for the unnecessary millions of deaths from preventable disease, starvation and malnutrition. Our great genetic advances are used to develop sterile strains of grain that cross-pollinate and wipe out natural strains, so that subsistence farmers have to spend their last penny to buy more seed each year, till they owe their soul and their mother to the company store.

What I'm saying is that greed and the obsession with profit has often perverted science into something used to destroy life rather than improve it, and its worse than ever today, because molecular genetics has opened up so many new and horrifying possibiities.

You may feel it's a great achievement that humans exist at all in a world of billions of microbes, but only humans are daft enough to engineer those microbes to create forms that NEVER existed in nature, that could extinguish every human on earth.

Even those microbes that parasitise and kill humans, don't really want to wipe out us all out, as they would then lose their host. We are the only species daft enough to do it to ourselves.

Or rather, we have among us evil individuals who would mess with genetically engineered bioweapons and imagine they could control them. They would even kid us that it for "defense", and that the ability to wipe out or incapacitate millions of civilians is part of "defense".

If the rest of us are daft enough to sit back and do nothing, then we will make ourselves extinct.

No Zipzup, you can keep repeating that we should ignore "conspiracy theories" as much as you like, but when people present verifiable facts and solid eveidence, that is no longer "conspiracy theories" , but a scandal that will be exposed.

Sooner rather than later. In England a Conservative politician (and I am NOT plugging that part at all) had a flood of doctors and nurses ringing him up, after his name appeared in a Lyme article in the press, to tell him that they have long had reason to believe there is a Lyme coverup, but were too frightened to talk about it.

No Zippy, the genie is further and further out of the bottle every day, and you can tell that to your ILADS-hating and LymeNet-hating friend Weisman on sci-med too.

Would you like to re-instate Richard Nixon as President, Zippy?

After all, Watergate was just a "conspiracy theory", right?

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by zipzip:
...
while we have many new diseases in our advanced, evolved world human kind has also eradicated, or come close to eradicating, many petulant diseases that were not controllable before, i.e. polio.

we have also extended by major leaps both the world birth expentancy and death rates (in the great majority of countries anyhow).

a century ago if you had 11 people in your family a quarter of them probably would not have lived to see 25 and the oldest probably wouldn't have passed 70.

life exptancy in the 1900 US census was 47.3 years, the 2000 US census had it at 76.9 years.

that increase is with the population tripling in the 20th century despite the included calculating in of two world wars worth of casualties, Vietnam, the toll of AIDS, rising coronary disease (often dependent on lifestyle), cancer (age & industrialized atmosphere) and automobile deaths.

to wax philosophic and anthropologic...

... the fact that human beings exist at all in a world made up of billions of particles of bacteria, viruses and fungi is in fact the greatest evolutionary achievement of all.

in a perfect world not only would humans exist, but they/we would all exist both healthy and happy. unfortunately we are far from a utopian universe.

but to argue that we are more ill as a world population today than yesteryear, the centuries or millenia before now is ludicrous.

there are much more simple explanations than far reaching conspiracy theories, not that there isn't nefarous and dubious ongoings often a foot but they can neither be quantified or qualified.

to do otherwise is like counting your chickens before they hatch without ever even having seen a chickencoop.

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 04 April 2005).]

---

quote:

---

Yes, we have raised longevity and got rid of many old infectious scourges in the west, but we have turned the ex Soviet Union, which used to have a life expectancy like the west's, into a semi-third-world environment where men live to 56. (And that's not a plug for the old Soviet regime, just a statement of fact.)

---

russia has no one to blame but its own oligarchy.

quote:

---

We could probably sort out the problems of the Third World easily but instead we (or rather, our multinational big Pharma corporations), make them pay through the nose for AIDS drugs they cannot afford so any progress in the west passes them by....

---

while that is mostly true it is nearsighted to suggest that the lack of progressive work on part of the African Union, and the clientalism of its shady governments don't share a very large part of the blame.

Africa on the most part is a feudel kingdom.

quote:

---

What I'm saying is that greed and the obsession with profit has often perverted science into something used to destroy life rather than improve it, and its worse than ever today, because molecular genetics has opened up so many new and horrifying possibiities.

---

do you want to take on Lyme disease or completey reform the entire way of modern life including the current form of governmental institutions and pro-growth private capitalism?

i'm all for sustainability and a more equitable distribution of wealth and services but it would take a multitude of decades to even put in the parternship for the framework.

the world is not rosy, and it is not as equally vile.

it is dependent on individual human actions and subsequent to centuries of developing norms, human habits and differing philosophies.

equality has been a fight ongoing for centuries, it will not change in a fortnight.

still, with all our problems and discrepancies amongst each other, humans have more personal freedom today that any other time since the beginning of modern civilization more than 2000 years ago.

your over simplification of geo-politics is mired in a naive romanticism.

quote:

---

If the rest of us are daft enough to sit back and do nothing, then we will make ourselves extinct.

---

and why is that such a bad thing? if humans were gone life on earth would flourish like it hasn't in millenia.

but i have never said do nothing.

on the contrary, i have said if you are going to do something, do it with thought, prudency, respect and probably most importantly, do it coherently.

... not with wild eyed fancy and illusory.

say someone "blew the lid off" of Lyme disease and it was common knowlegde that it was created as a bio-terror weapon.

would people still be diagnosed quicker?

would the serology of the tests be better? would it be commonly accepted amongst doctors that chronic nueroborreliosis exist?

would insurance companies start covering IV antibiotics without hinderance.

most assuredly no, no and no.

the first, borrelia as a concerted bioweapon, and the second, borrelia as a persistant and easily acquired disease, are not mutually inclusive.

quote:

---

Would you like to re-instate Richard Nixon as President, Zippy?

After all, Watergate was just a "conspiracy theory", right?

---

watergate, unlike plum island, et all, has been corroborated & proven beyond any doubt, so it is hardly a theory. hence it is hardly a conspiracy in the sense that it is uncertifiable.

rather watergate (which is an ugly hotel) was a conspiracy in the sense that it was a conspired scheme.

... not that i can even see how watergate is apropos of parallel reasoning to purport the argument for bioterror weapons and their involvement in the rise in population of borrelia infection in the human host.

so obviously any reference to richard nixon in this discussion is a distraction meant to be an ad hominem attack.

to get back to the discussion at hand.... i have never said unequivocally that there is no conspiracies involving Lyme...

but they are concerning gross misrepresentation of the proliferation and manifestation of the disease (which is apparent) than development of governmental-military bioterror weapons that have never been seen (as per my Iraq example given previously).

again it comes back to corroboration, credibility and logical analysis.

as liegner wrote the fight for Lyme is "the sensible pursuit of answers", with emphasis certainly on 'sensible'.

http://www.lymeinfo.net/sensiblepursuit.html

I didn't fully read the 2 web sites I posted, just a line about Grosse Isle and biowarfare tests. I can't read much or clearly anything much right now. Had cataract removed in right eye 2 weeks ago, and will have cataract in left removed eye sometime in summer. Not only is my brain and head in a fog right, but my body is not cooperating either. I also have low-angle glaucoma in both eyes, all caused by lyme, or so my LLMD says.

I will be more careful in the future about what I post.

I would not be surprised if some of those crazy neonazi sites were actually set up by the military intelligence top brass themselves, to discredit serious people who want to expose this thing with facts, and to divert blame for the evil they have done on to traditional scapegoats like Jews, Latinos etc.

Lisa

quote:

---

Originally posted by Corinne E:
Lisa,

I didn't fully read the 2 web sites I posted, just a line about Grosse Isle and biowarfare tests. I can't read much or clearly anything much right now. Had cataract removed in right eye 2 weeks ago, and will have cataract in left removed eye sometime in summer. Not only is my brain and head in a fog right, but my body is not cooperating either. I also have low-angle glaucoma in both eyes, all caused by lyme, or so my LLMD says.

I will be more careful in the future about what I post.

Corinne

---

Or maybe you were not joking?

Look zippy, I don't want to get all off-topic and start a big debate about Russia and Africa. So I'll just say yes, I'm aware that there are vicious, greedy homegrown regimes that oppress their populations in both places, but in the latter case many were
installed and/or backed by the west and as for the case of the Russian oligarchs, all were. Now back to Lyme.

You say we should do things with prudence coherence, and "respect" etc. Fine.

But respect for whom? Not for the Steere camp, I hope?

You say, if the lid was blown off the biowarfare side of the Lyme conspiracy, how would it help people get diagnosis?

Well, with the lid blown off, we discredit all those who have been an OBSTACLE to diagnosis for an unknown, but likely STAGGERING number of people, who have been left to suffer needlessly and agonisingly for years.

Over-represented among that number: children.

You see, if it can be demonstrated that the majority of the Steere camp have known conflicts of interest with military biowarfare goals and/or greedy corporations (and you bet your momma it can), then we can demonstrate that the opinion of these researchers should be flushed down the toilet.

Along with the researchers themselves. (Ideally in those designer toilets Tincup suggested, each with the portrait of a leading Steere camp member etched on the bowl).

Unseat that corrupt Steere crew, and you give breathing space to genuine doctors and scientists who are studying borrelia because they want to ALLEVIATE SUFFERING, not create the world's most effective incapacitant, give value for money to insurance companies that pay them, or satisfy a paymaster trying to launch an unsafe vaccine etc etc.

And just out of interest, did you ever take the Lymerix vaccine Zip?

Unseat the Steere gangsters, and you open the door to REAL SCIENCE and hence to proper diagnosis, better testing, and effective treatment.

Yes we most certainly CAN force insurance companies to pay for needed treatment if our legislative efforts are accompanied by a mass political campaign.

And by that I DO NOT mean backing this or that party, because they're all up to their necks in it. I mean by our own patient protest actions, to accompany published exposes of the facts.

My point about Watergate, and asking you if you felt Nixon should be re-instated, was to show you that at some point, Watergate was also, technically, a "conspiracy theory". If people had shut their minds off in a knee-jerk response as you are doing, it would never have been exposed.

Yes Watergate has been proven by fact, but much of what we're saying has too.

For example, Klempner HAS been a biowarfare man for years, and much of the Steere camp roll-call reads like a Who's who in the Epidemic Intelligence Service (elite military Infectious Disease unit originally set up by the biowarmen in the McCarthy period, when it was legal, OFFICIAL POLICY to create offensive bioweapons.)

That's all easy to prove with material that's long been publicly available, often without even needing to do FOIA requests.

In the UK the military stuff has been leaking like a sieve.

You talk about "bioweapons that have never been seen". How do you "see" a bioweapon?

How do you know when you walk into a room where a 12 year old child has a PICC line in because he can no longer remember his ABC, is too tired to stand up, is screaming from a headache that can't be relieved by painkillers etc, how do you know that it's NOT a bioweapon you're looking at?

Especially when you see it reduce a 250 pound ex-wrestler to the same state?

Ken Alibek (former top Soviet biowarfareman, later recruited by the US), said some interesting things. He said that the biggest problem with preventing an escape or attack involving bioweapons, is that:

"We don't know whether or not we've already had one".

Hmmmmmm.

Lisa

honestly pointless to discuss anything with you.

with a heedless disrespect for veracity you juxtapose everything i say into a fabrication to suit the needs of your opinion.

best of luck storming the castle....

sincere regards,

zip

If you think the elected officials of this country are in control you are sadly mislead. There is a whole unseen establishment that runs this country. Our elected officials are just the puppets.

And by the establishment, I just dont mean big business. This is not paranoia this is reality. Every "auto-immune" disorder has seen hugh increases in percentages over the last 20 years.

Diseases that were only seen in older people are now being seen in children. We now have an epedemic in Autism, this includes all aspects including ADD/ADHD. By definition you can not have an epedemic of Autism.

THe CDC and NIH are absolute jokes, I think they are totally incapable of putting out a single document that has any truth or up to date information. Whether this is caused becaus of incompetence or by design, it is still a joke.

Our politicians tell us that they are increasing funding to the NIH, at least this is the garbage I heard from my Senator this week, to help identify what we are facing.

Almost every bill we have attempted to get passed has backfired on us. Congress can sit there and shed a tear over stories from children that have suffered severely from Lyme disease and then drag their feet in doing anything usefull.

When they want to they can act quickly, we have all seen that. They simply dont care. They have managed to isolate us all. The divide and conquor technique, meanwhile we struggle more and more.

I have seen first hand how this government works. How concerned they are about there secrets. My dad had a DOD agent in the operating room during all of his cancer surgeries. Never told us what he was working on, but did tell my mom you would not want to know.

All we can rely on is ourselves and our doctors that are willing to treat us. At least for the forseeable future I see very little help coming in the way of legislative relief for us all.

The best thing we can all do is help each other. Reach out when we are able and offer support to those that are less fortunate. This is a battle we will have to fight in the trenches.

By the way just an interesting sidenote if you believe in Prophecy, the cardinals gathered in Rome might actually be electing the next to the last Pope. St. Malachy, a bishop fortold the names of all of the Popes beginning in 1143 AD. He identified 112 of them. John Paul the II was the 110, they will be electing the 111 in the next month only leaving one more left at which time Rome will fall.

Maybe it is time for all of us to rethink about our lives and what is truly important. It sure would have been nice to know if the Pope had Lyme disease. Just one more interesting question.

quote:

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Originally posted by zipzip:

with a heedless disrespect for veracity you juxtapose everything i say into a fabrication to suit the needs of your opinion.

best of luck storming the castle....

sincere regards,

zip

[This message has been edited by zipzip (edited 06 April 2005).]

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Zippy, you haven't provided any real counter-arguments to anything I've said. It's all very well to mumble about "disrespect for veracity" - why don't you demonstrate where I have disregarded the truth?

You ridicule those of us who want to look into the biowarfare/commercial fraud nature of the Steere camp, while providing no evidence to show we are wrong, and simply disregard the facts when we provide them.

Would you deny that Mark Klempner runs a state-of-the art biowar superlab in Bosotn, and that he has been in that field for years?

Would you deny that Alan Barbour is trying to build the same in California?

Would you deny that McSweegan and Philip Baker, the NIH Lyme program officers these past years, were biowarfaremen too?

Or that Alan Steere is from the EIS (as are many many others in the Steere camp, even though the EIS is an elite organisation, ie has a very SMALL number of members in total, so it's very unlikely that you would find so many of them in the Steere camp working on Lyme science by "co-incidence".

Anyway in the UK some of these people have blown the whistle on themselves.

Thank you for wishing us luck in "storming the castle". With your friendliness to the known Steere camp provocateurs in sci-med, I don't expect we'll get any help from you in storming it.

I just hope to hell that when we knock down that big iron gate, we don't find you inside, helping to guard it.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by hwlatin:

I have seen first hand how this government works. How concerned they are about there secrets. My dad had a DOD agent in the operating room during all of his cancer surgeries. Never told us what he was working on, but did tell my mom you would not want to know.
....

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What????!!!!!!!! This is unbelievable!

Or maybe not.

When did this happen, and what type of cancer did your Dad have (if you don't mind me asking)?

He would go to work in the morning they would then load them onto a bus with blacked out windows and take the to a secret location. If my mom wanted to reach him she would have to call a special number where a DOD agent would get word to him and he would call her back.

"We don't know whether or not we've already had one".

There it is.

What we call Lyme disease today is undoubtably in some cases an illness the likes of noone has ever seen before.

Cases in children as described above ..
Cases where the primary sumptom is severe cognitive decline, and/or what looks like mental illness.

Do you know how unlikely it is that someone especially with mental illness symptoms as a result of infectious encephalopathy..
how VERY unlikely they are to ever even fathom they have an infection?

The number of people who are placed on a multitude of psycotropic meds, or institutionalized..simply written off as
chronically depressed, bi-polar..
or perhaps eventually commit crimes?

We have to also remember, even with debilitating symptoms more like CFS or Fibro, MS, as well as brain illness..
that there are likely hourds of people infected and debilitated who will never know it.

I do not agree that the general state of health is doing OK..not at all.
The above mentioned illnesses, as well as record numbers under the umbrella ADD, ADHD "diagnosis", and a multitude of immune deficiencies, ect, ect, ect has grown exponentially in the past few decades.
That's not to say certain advancements have not been made, or that there are not other contributors to some of the morbitity..
but certainly there is something more virulent than just that effecting a considerable number of people.

The fact that this illness is strangling a number of our children, to my mind, should be prodicing an angry but well informed mass of mothers equipped with the best, most credible information on the subject.

No, I do not think this is something we have to accept.

Mo

They have been demanding that the CDC release information about the scandal of the appalling security in Klempner's lab, where tularemia infected staff.) They have publihed an article stating they believe Lyme is a "potential bioweapon".

I think it would be good for Lymies to make contact with the Sunshine Project, which is devoted to fighting the trend to create new and ever more horrific bioweapons under the guise of "biodefense".

There is a reasonably large international movement of people dedicated to fighting the devlopment and proliferation of WMD (and that includes proliferation in the west!!!) - if we can make them our allies then already we have tapped into a vital resource of support for our cause.

They have a very interesting website at www.sunshine-project.org where you can find tons of declassified Army documents on biowar. With the Army admitting to messing with practically everything from anaesthetics to bees to prozac to valium to sex, is it really any surprise that they were so interested in neurotropic, immune-evading and totally incapacitating borrelia?

Lisa

Subject: International Campaign to Stop Smallpox Genetic Engineering Announced
From: [email protected]
Newsgroups: sci.med.diseases.lyme
Date: Apr 06 2005 07:28:12

Press Release
The Sunshine Project
Third World Network http://smallpoxbiosafety.org

This text is also available in:
Chinese: http://smallpoxbiosafety.org/who/prchinese.html
French: http://smallpoxbiosafety.org/who/prfrench.html
German: http://smallpoxbiosafety.org/who/prgerman.html
Italian: http://smallpoxbiosafety.org/who/pritalian.html
Spanish: http://smallpoxbiosafety.org/who/prspanish.html

International Campaign to Stop Smallpox Genetic Engineering Announced

Non-Governmental Organizations Urge the World Health Organization to
Put Smallpox in the History Books Instead of the Genetic Engineering
Lab

(4 April 2005) - An international alliance of non-governmental
organizations has launched a campaign to urge the World Health
Organization to reject a proposal that would permit the genetic
engineering of smallpox and to instead ensure that all remaining stocks
of the virus are destroyed within two years. Debate on the proposal
will take place at the World Health Assembly (WHA), which meets in
Geneva, Switzerland beginning on May 16th.

The NGOs, led by Third World Network and The Sunshine Project, have
opened a website, www.smallpoxbiosafety.org, where organizations and
individuals can send letters to the WHO Director General. The website
provides links to health ministries, so that people can also contact
their government's representatives to the WHA.

The website is available
in Chinese, English, French, German, Italian, and Spanish.

The proposal to genetically engineer smallpox, which would also permit
smallpox genes to be inserted into related poxviruses and the unlimited
distribution of small segments of smallpox DNA, poses a large number of
public health, biosafety, and biological weapons risks.

It was prompted
by the United States, and has been recommended to the WHA through an
imbalanced advisory committee. A Briefing Paper (The Genetic
Engineering of Smallpox: WHO's Retreat from the Eradication of Smallpox
Virus and Why it Should be Stopped) at the website explains the
political process that led to the proposal, the risks, and why it
should be rejected.

An edited excerpt from the paper that provides more
background is appended to this news release.

Between now and the May opening of the WHA, the NGOs will be seeking to
mobilize a wide variety of non-governmental organization and citizens.

They will contact all member governments of WHO and urge them to reject
the committee's recommendations and to instead:

* Prohibit the genetic engineering of smallpox, the insertion of
smallpox genes in other poxviruses, and any further distribution of
smallpox genetic material for non-diagnostic purposes;

* Set a firm and irrevocable date, within two years, for the
destruction of all remaining stocks of smallpox virus (including viral
chimeras, or hybrids with other poxviruses);

* In the interim before destruction, ensure that the WHO Advisory
Committee on Variola Virus Research and its advisors are regionally
balanced and that the Committee and its subsidiary groups conduct their
oversight activities in a fully transparent and accountable manner.

Interested organizations and people are urged to visit www.smallpoxbiosafety.org to learn more about this issue and to send a
letter to the WHO Director General.

----------

Background

The World Health Organization (WHO) is justly proud of the global
effort that brought about the eradication of smallpox in 1977; but the
truth of the matter is that the job was never finished. The United
States and Russia still retain stocks of the smallpox virus (Variola
major), an easily transmitted disease and ancient scourge of humanity
that is a potent biological weapons agent.

Smallpox kills one quarter
or more of the people it infects and leaves many that do not die
disfigured and blind.

In 1999, the remaining stocks of smallpox virus were slated for
imminent destruction. But Russia and the US balked at the World Health
Assembly (WHA) resolution calling upon them to destroy the virus.
Instead, the US has accelerated smallpox research.

Now, it wants open
the Pandora's Box of genetically-engineered smallpox. A plan to
genetically engineer the virus could be approved by the World Health
Assembly in May 2005.

The plan also includes the expression of smallpox
genes in related poxviruses, and unlimited distribution of segments of
smallpox DNA. If implemented, this plan would pose serious biosafety
risks and open the road to an artificial reconstruction of the virus
for biowarfare purposes.

Fewer and fewer people, and their leaders, have personal memories of
the horror of smallpox, or even the scars left by vaccination, which
had ended in most countries by the late 1970s.

As if the world is
condemned to repeat history through forgetfulness, WHO has now lost the
political will that it once had to finish the job of smallpox
eradication. Much of the blame can be laid at the feet of WHO's
decision to leave oversight of smallpox research in the hands of an
unbalanced and highly politicized "technical" advisory committee that
is dominated by a small number of countries and scientists with a
personal interest in pursuing smallpox research.

It was US pressure
that rammed the proposal for genetically-engineered smallpox through
that committee, and now the World Health Assembly is in an inglorious
position of being on the verge of endorsing what may prove to be the
undoing of one its own greatest achievements.

Civil society and like-minded governments must urgently come together
to turn the tide.

The creation of genetically-engineered smallpox and
hybrids of smallpox and other viruses (called chimera) pose serious
public health, biosafety, and biological weapons dangers to the entire
world.

With increased smallpox experimentation, the world stands closer
to the accident or deliberate act that would cause a release of the
virus.

Because many poxviruses are closely-related to each other and, in their
natural state frequently not entirely species-specific, the insertion
of smallpox genes in related viruses has the potential to create
dangerous new human (and animal) pathogens. Through genetic engineering
or targeted mutations, labs that receive pieces of the smallpox genome
may develop the ability to create smallpox or a novel virus with its
characteristics without ever receiving an actual sample of Variola
major.

Moreover, laboratory safety practices and technology cannot
erase human error and equipment failures that lead to accidents, as
evidenced by a recent string of lab-acquired infections and
environmental releases of SARS, Ebola, tularemia, and other dangerous
diseases.

In fact, the last reported human cases of smallpox were
laboratory-acquired (see page 3 of the Briefing Paper - The Genetic
Engineering of Smallpox: WHO's Retreat from the Eradication of Smallpox
Virus and Why it Should be Stopped).

Contained to only two labs in Russia and the US, smallpox has a unique
multilateral research oversight structure that has no parallel with any
other disease. Because of the unique situation of smallpox research, if
WHO approves these experiments it will not only increase the threat
posed by smallpox itself. WHO will also broadcast the signal that it is
internationally acceptable to have genetic engineering of other germs,
including experiments in which new and more dangerous forms may result
- or even be intended.

If endorsed by the WHA, the intergovernmental encouragement of the
creation of designer disease will come at a particularly dangerous
time. Globally, the number of high containment facilities handling
dangerous disease agents is expanding and the hazardous applications of
biotechnology increasing. This is reflected in a growing number of lab
accidents in a variety of countries in recent years involving highly
pathogenic agents in high containment facilities. Particularly in the
US, the scope and quantity of research on biological weapons agents is
growing, and now exceeds the cost of the effort that created the atomic
bomb (the Manhattan Project), adjusted for inflation.

Individuals and civil society organizations should take action and
voice their opposition to WHO and their national public health
authorities, urging them to reject the recommendations of the committee
and to instead ensure prompt destruction of all remaining virus stocks.
This briefing provides a political overview of smallpox eradication,
the WHO processes that led to the present state of affairs, and related
issues of biosafety and prohibitions on biological weapons.

Lisa, if you're forming a study group on this, please count me in.

Some dismiss the whole Lyme-biowar connection because they haven't really examined the factual evidence for themselves.

Some dismiss it because they are so frightened by the whole thing.

Some dismiss it because they have been put off by people who have mixed weird cultish nonsense in with the true material about what the DoD, British Ministry of Defence etc have been up to.

In Zip-zip's case, his dismissal of it might be something to do with the same reason he finds the company of ILADS-hating, Lymenet-hating Weisman so rewarding on the other Lyme group he hangs out at.

But then that's just my opinion, pure speculation.

Lisa

quote:

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Originally posted by paulscha:
How anyone can dismiss the Lyme/Plum Island connection as 'implausible' is beyond me, unless they've recently arrived on Earth from a much happier planet.

Lisa, if you're forming a study group on this, please count me in.

Paul

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