Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Your two cents is worth a million Bob. Some with with both sense and common sense and an ability to see the big picture.
METALLlC BLUE, well said. You would think with so many sick on this site they would be the first to know we need heath care reform and how they have been screwed over by their health care provided time and time again.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
I also want to mention one more thing. I have Medicare and Mass Health.
Both have paid for "all" my medications. They only required authorization and gave me a hard time about two medications. Neurontin and Zithromax. They did finally allow me to use it for about 6 months in total before telling me they wouldn't cover it anymore. I wasn't seeing progress on it.
I've been given:
3 months of IM Bicillin 4 years Tetracycline 3 months Dorxy 4 Weeks IV Vancomycin 2 weeks Diflucan 3 years Biaxen and Plaquenil 3 months Malarone 3 months Mepron 2 months Factive 7 years Cortisone 5 years Lamictal 5 years Buproprion 6 months Armour Thyroid 8 years Pentasa 5 years Ativan
I could go on and on. I've been hospitalized numerous times. I've been to the E.R. numerous times. I've had Kidney Stone procedures, I've been to over 150 doctors 50 of which I saw specifically while under Medicare. They never gave me a hard time or made me pay a dime over the basic co-payment of 2-5 dollars for some meds. Eventually they paid even the co-payments for me.
Before Medicare I had Tufts and Unum Provident. Before that I was on Blue Cross Blue Shield.
Tufts fought me on a lot of things, including a procedure I had for Kidney stones (Lithotripsy). They were trying to stick me with a 10K bill because I saw a doctor who they claimed was "Out of Network even though I had the option in my contract to see him if my primary authorized it.
Unum Provident denied me continued long term disability and dropped me, citing that I wasn't really disabled. When I called a lawyer to begin legal action they threatened me by citing passages they'd taken off the internet of things I'd said. The passages were taken out of context. They basically made it appear as though I were lying about being disabled because I had some good days where I was able to go outside. What they didn't note was that I also said it was "once in a blue moon that I was able to go outside." My lawyer eventually told me that it wasn't worth it to continue. He said I was too sick and it would do damage to my health to fight a huge battle with the insurance company. He told me they would get mean and do more than just copy passages from the internet -- they would weave a tail based on my entire life by the time they were done. I dropped the case.
The only problem with Social Security and Medicare is that most people should hire a lawyer from the start to make sure everything is organized and goes thru the very first time.
Medicare > *
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: Yeah and I said that since Regan and his policies of slowly deregulating industry we have have corporate facism .....the lines of government and corporations have been blurred.
The new administration campaigned to try and change that. Read all of my text, not just the part that will support your point.
Corporations rise and fall, naturally. It is government intervention/regulation that keeps Corporations powerful. Government, on the other hand, is almost impossible to shrink.
You're replacing something bad with something worse.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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It seems to me, some people want 'free things' while others want 'freedom'.
It seems if we made healthcare free for everyone and no one had to pay a cent. Then healthcare itself would just go away completely. I know several doctors personally, they had to pay huge costs to go to medical school, all of them had to attend 8-10 years of college and training. We can't just walk in and say, you are going to treat me for free...
It's just illogical and unfair to them.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
It's interesting that the documentary film Food Inc was mentioned here because an innovative farmer by the name of Joel Salatin is in that film.
And according to Mr. Salatin our government creates rules and regulations that HURT the small farmer but helps the big corporate farms.
Essentially, Mr. Salatin says that government regulations and government programs help big "corporate" farms survive. And that government regulation hurts small farmers.
Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
It's not free. In some way you pay either thru taxes or a premium but it costs less than thru the private sector if the whole nation is in one pool and everyone had the security of knowing they will not lose it if they change a job or come upon difficult circumstances.
As to what's in congress now, we don't have all the facts, they are still working on it.
Nothing is free! People should not go into medicine to make millions but because they have a passion to help sick people and take care of the sick and they don't work for free.
But our educational systems stinks too. Many countries have free or very low cost high quality universities, so that doctors don't have to pay so much in tuition. As far as the time they put in in training that comes along with the territory of the profession they choose.
Why should it be a right. Because it's the humane thing to do, a moral obligation to our fellow brethren and members of our society. We are not living in the middle ages. It's the 21st century and we are the only major industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for all.
Why???
Even smaller countries in South American and other areas do so.
How could any one in their right mind not see this as the right and decent thing to do, especially all you family values people?
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: I find it very sad. That is why the glory days of America are over and every other industrialized nation is surpassing us for a long time now, China and India included. They are producing the well educated thinkers and inventors of the next generation, not the U.S.
There's a reason why the US is the largest economy in the world. And it has nothing to do with following Europe's lead on anything.
The glory days are fading because the government is squeezing people dry.
India and China are developing countries. They're developing quickly because they're just grabbing low-hanging fruit. It will be a long long time before they can compete directly with the US. Infact, most Indian and Chinese inventors come to the US for higher education.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
That's you point of view. We are not competitive most of industry weighted down by the cost of health care the auto industry being the prime example. And we don't produce anything any more.
We out source everything abroad. It benefits corporations (cheap wages for their benefit) and that takes good paying jobs away from Americans.
When corporate America is held responsible to the public and the community they are in, only then will we be competitive. When they stop taking jobs abroad and stop going abroad to avoid paying taxes using offshore tax havens things may change.
That's because they have been so unregulated (thank you Regan) that they have abandoned all principles.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
quote: METALLlC BLUE, well said. You would think with so many sick on this site they would be the first to know we need heath care reform and how they have been screwed over by their health care provided time and time again.
It blows my mind to hear some of the things coming from people these days. There is such a passionate resistance on this issue all the sudden, yet 6 months ago all I heard from "everyone" was how badly we needed Health Care Reform and how Lyme Patients were being rail roaded by their private carrier who wouldn't cover their child's meds, or they went Bankrupt having to pay out of pocket because the private insurances companies wouldn't work with their LLMD.
Yet ironically, go to any LLMD who accepted Medicare and they don't give you even the slightest difficulty. So much for big bad government standing between me and my medical treatment.
It is my opinion that health care is a right in our country, just as education, public access to information, protection from crime and fire. You can't discriminate against people based on their ability to pay or not pay for medical care. Someone with money lives who has the same illness as someone who doesn't have the money who dies because they couldn't afford continued care of the same quality is wrong.
And as far as people not being turned away from Emergency rooms or dying because they couldn't get access to public assistance - you're kidding right? Haven't you heard that it's difficult for people to get public care for their "STATE" when the poverty lines are skewed. If you have one kid but make so and so amount of money, you can't get covered -- even though the job you have doesn't allow you enough resources to pay for the health insurance. Then if you have 3 kids but make the same amount, if you're married but your partner is disabled, you can't get coverage. Oh and what about if you're single and entirely entitled to coverage but you're so sick that you can't gather the strength to jump all the hoops to get the entitled care because you live alone and have no one to help you?
Millions upon millions live below the poverty line or right at the poverty line and can't afford insurance. These same people, most of them... 47 Million...of them, can't make ends meet nor have access for (whatever reason) to getting help.
Lot's of people are turned away from the Emergency room because a lot of people have problems that the Emergency rooms claim aren't emergencies -- including a lot of cases of Chronic Illness. What is worse is, why should the Hospitals have to privately swallow the costs which reduces their ability to provide the highest quality care when they do accept emergency cases of patients who don't have insurance or money?
The hospitals have to make a profit too and they're often forced to raise costs in an attempt to manage their ability to pay employees, utilities, taxes, machines, and other supplies. Many are turned away because they can't say yes even if they wanted to because of the way the health care system is currently setup.
The public is the one who should be absorbing the costs when it's the general public as a whole who benefits and uses the health care system all through their lives. How the system is setup is a whole other story, but reform is absolutely critical (Even if you don't agree with health care being a right like I do). We must reform the lawsuits, emergency care, mandatory care for preexisting conditions and variety of other things. These all HAVE to change whether you like it or not, else one day you and yours could be on the end of the **** stick if you hit a real bad patch and suddenly have to fend for yourself medically.
And this whole thing about the Government being big bad and evil and how all our lives have gone down the drain is a bunch of bull****. The quality of life of the average human being has increased substantially over the time period humans have been inhabiting the planet Earth because of our ability to "manage" ourselves thru evolving governments. Because of our evolving political government, "most" of the industrialized societies allow most citizens luxuries. Most of us can get a car, a place to live, own a COMPUTER. It might be a ****box car and a shamble shack where you pay 300 rent and a computer out of the library -- but do you know how blessed we are to have those opportunities? Yet, at the end of the day, what about medical insurance? Can't sell your luxuries when those very tools allow you to navigate the world to get to a low paying job.
People have the right to vote against Health Care Reform under Obama. Just make sure you've got all your ducks in a row before you form your conviction.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: It's not free. In some way you pay either thru taxes or a premium but it costs less than thru the private sector if the whole nation is in one pool and everyone had the security of knowing they will not lose it if they change a job or come upon difficult circumstances.
(((What if people just saved up their own money for when something happens to them? I think you as a person could more than likely do a better job of using 'your' money than the government does.)))
As to what's in congress now, we don't have all the facts, they are still working on it.
(((If the plan was so good, if it would help everyone, if it would cut our debt down instead of bring it up, then why is it taking so long? If it was so good and not debatable, it would pass in a very short time.)))
Nothing is free! People should not go into medicine to make millions but because they have a passion to help sick people and take care of the sick and they don't work for free.
(((Then why would people go into medical school if they knew they would not get paid more? Surgeons, doctors, radiologist, techs, ect. are all highly skilled people. People that are highly skilled are paid more because their work it harder. Why do people go to college? Because they want to, or because they want to try to increase their skills to make more money...)))
But our educational systems stinks too. Many countries have free or very low cost high quality universities, so that doctors don't have to pay so much in tuition. As far as the time they put in in training that comes along with the territory of the profession they choose.
(((And government runs our educational system. Where are these free universities that are really high in quality? If a university were free, then there would be no university.)))
Why should it be a right. Because it's the humane thing to do, a moral obligation to our fellow brethren and members of our society. We are not living in the middle ages. It's the 21st century and we are the only major industrialized country in the world that does not provide health care for all.
Why???
(((So if healthcare is a right, then that would make it free of charge to each and everyone. You have already admitted it is not free because peoples tax dollars pay for it... Even if this utopian dream were real, then I guess we should have free healthy food, everyone should have a free and healthy home to live in, everyone should have free clothing to keep them healthy in the winter. Everyone should have a safe car to drive. Where does it stop?)))
Even smaller countries in South American and other areas do so.
How could any one in their right mind not see this as the right and decent thing to do, especially all you family values people?
(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group.
Look... I wish there was no sickness, pain, suffering, ect. I wish life was easy and full of nothing but fun everyday. But, that is not a world we live in. We have to approach these problems in an economical, sensible, reasonable, and more efficient way.
What government is doing right now is making a power grab. They want to tax, spend, and regulate, and then do it over again. I am not a democrat or conservative. I am strictly a Constitutionalist.)))
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Many people have lost their logic on this issue. We are sooooo locked into the idea that centralized administration of anything can't work. Imagine we're in the 60's and determine to get to the moon, we decide government intervention would slow the process.
So we turn to corporations to do this. My guess, it would have taken forever because no one could consolidate enough resources with limited budget to do it. What corporations would do, is to keep pleading for money, reducing cost, don't deliver the results then go bankrupt. All the proponents would still get rich. Nasa had to be centralized, we'll say it cost 100 billion to get to the moon. If it took 100 billion and you had 8 companies vying to be first, it would cost 100 billion 8 times. So, in my estimation that is why companies would fail, they don't care about succeeding if they get paid.
Our health care isn't quite the same as NASA, but there are very similar parallels that can be drawn as far as expending resources. Medicare being one of them.
There is a common joke, in this country a corporate company was given a contract to develop a pen that would work in space. All pens are gravity based, 14 million dollars later to a company name Accenture we have a pen that works in space. Of course the Russians worked within their own community and solved the problem with a pencil. The idea is how corporations work, its not that they didn't know about the pencil, they could just bill the government more.
Corporations are about profit not public good. There are times you have to create utilities based on public good, to represent "we the people". You have to centralize your information and resources to save money. You have to create utilities that are answerable to the people and not government. Why I suggest, we the people vote for who is to manage health care and not leave it to government.
Obama is in one of the worst situations, he has all these special interests around him. The only thing he can do is negotiate the best solution for us. I truly believe he is doing the best he can. The issue isn't about what Obama is going to do, it is what we are going to do. We the people need to tell government what we want for health care. It starts by saying everyone is covered.
There is no perfect solution, but the corporate solution is soooooo flawed it has proven to be the worst solution. Why you might ask? It's sole purpose isn't about the public good and never will be!
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: That's you point of view. We are not competitive most of industry weighted down by the cost of health care the auto industry being the prime example. And we don't produce anything any more.
We out source everything abroad. It benefits corporations (cheap wages for their benefit) and that takes good paying jobs away from Americans.
American industry is at a disadvantage due to these reasons:
Unions (GM, etc) Higher cost of labour. Highest Corporate taxes in the world. Environmental restrictions are a problem for industries. Lower standards elsewhere make outsourcing cheaper. Healthcare, but government healthcare won't change anything. what the companies pay for insurance will be paid as tax to the government instead.
So regulation is actually the problem. We need to make it easier for companies, not harder. Increased regulations = driving companies out of the country.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
You're a Republican talking point text book. There is a reason why they have finally been voted out of office.......thank god. They have set us back a good twenty years. Thanks for the deficits, the financial crisis, recession and one needless war.
Buster, maybe you and Ron Paul could take some of your followers and go into the Mohave desert for a few years and when you come back defeated we'll have to tell you that you blew it......there's no safety net for you, sorry.
Bob, how refreshing to hear a voice of reason.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
Buster said: "(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group."
The difference is that a government option is not about the bottom line or profits, therefore more of the money will actually be spent on healthcare.
The only current plans are based soley on profits. We must offer a plan that has an affordable option.
Currently the people who don't have a plan spend far more than they would if they had an affordable option, hence costing us all more money. It's not cost effective to wait until someone is seriously ill before we treat them.
Lyme patients know this all too well. It makes no sense to have people being treated through an ER when they could easily for most things get preventative care.
WE are the only industrialized nation in the world that does not have a plan for all people. Talk about wasting money.
All sides agree that this a major problem and one that needs fixing. We are going broke over this whole mess.
We are losing jobs due to this issue. People are losing their homes and everything they have worked for over this issue.
This does not happen in other modernized Countries that offer a plan for everyone.
it really boils down to a philosophical and moral difference. There are those that believe "ALL" people should have an "Affordable" option and there are those that "Don't" think that "ALL" should have that option.
So it really boils down to which side of the fence you are on.
I personally believe that we are not living in the stone ages. Just like we as a society agree we should have roads, water, electricity etc....those things are regulated.
I believe that at a minimum, that all ppl should have an affordable option. And, quite frankly, I am already being rationed in regards to what I can have and can't have in relation to my Lyme Disease and I have what many would consider good insurance. What a joke.
I think a new option(Note: the word OPTION) will drive competition too, which I would think ppl would like. Currently the Insurance Agency's, Drug Company's, and Medical Community at large charge whatever they want and we are at their mercy.
Of course this new option will not be free, but will be cheaper and save our country from ruin if we sit and do nothing. It may cost us 900Billion dollars to enact, but you have to consider the money you will re-coup and will save by adding this option, which will help significantly reduce the 900Billion we will need to spend.
I personally do not think it will be a complete wash(meaning it may cost us some money, but if we can continue spending millions daily on other things like a war, then I think we can spend some on a plan that is the right thing to do for Americans that don't have an affordable option.
Also, we will be creating healthier people, hence healthier workers, hence better educated people, hence better jobs, hence better position in the world economically. Just my opinion.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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America voted for a centrist. What they got was a leftist. They have stopped trusting Obama, only a few months into his presidency.
Watch for the big swing back, Republicans gaining a lot of seats in 2010."
Ninjaphire,
Don't know where you came up with that one. Apparently President Obama picked up huge kudos after he gave his Congressional speech two days ago! And, also after his speech on Education the day pror.
He dismantled a lot of the lies and fabrications that were out there and pretty much every poll that I have seen shows he picked up major points from people who were wishy-washy after they watched it.
He was able to answer so many questions. Of course we should not base our decision on one speech, but he gave a heck of a speech and his ratings went way up in the last couple days.
i think people were better able to see how many lies were out there regarding his plan. What he said made sense and most who were on the fence are now on board with his plan.
Don't get me wrong, there were many that had already made up their minds that they do not want his plan to pass, but the ones on the fence or that were not sure, are now predominately supporting his plan. So I think your statement may be off base in regards to this issue.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
HA! There is no way Obama is a leftist. If he were he would be demanding a single payer plan. May be too left for you but is far more to the right of center than to the left.
It's a certain group that want to label him a leftist for their own purposes and because many are ignorant of the facts and the distinction between the words socialist, communist and fascist. Yes there are distinctions between those terms and he is non of the above.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Maybe lymenet should survey its member on what they would like to see in health care. I think the results would be very interesting.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: HA! There is no way Obama is a leftist. If he were he would be demanding a single payer plan. May be too left for you but is far more to the right of center than to the left.
It's a certain group that want to label him a leftist for their own purposes and because many are ignorant of the facts and the distinction between the words socialist, communist and fascist. Yes there are distinctions between those terms and he is non of the above.
He realizes that a single payer plan is politically impossible right now. That's why he's trying to get this plan through, to destroy insurance companies and lead to single payer.
I don't know what he is, but just look at his friends and "czars".
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Regan began appointing "CZARS". Are you implying Obama is a Communist? I thought most these days preferred to depict him as Hitler.
It's truly evil to try to bring insurance reform and affordable health care to all. What is this country coming too. Soon all citizens will demand to be treated with equal respect no matter
what their ethnic background, race or color, can you image?? It's been in the law for years but it might actually become the norm all across this great country.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
I don't know what he is, or believes. You look at the people he has appointed, and tell me what he is.
I'm divided between socialist and empty-suit-with-a-golden-tongue.
I agree, it is truly evil, because it will destroy the current system and it is a mistake that will be impossible to undo.
Believe it or not, most people don't care all that much about race and color anymore. We elected a black man to be president.
What the left wants is to enforce equality of result and therefore mediocrity upon all the people. The implementation of insurance right now is already halfway to socialism. Government health-care or "Public Option" will take it all the way. We need to go in the other direction, towards a real market in healthcare.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
I was being facetious about health care for all being evil. There is nothing evil at all about it.
No, it is not true that the country has accepted the fact that we have a black President and it was well demonstrated by the disgusting behavior displayed at the town hall meetings held during the course of this summer. A little more than half of the country elected him....remember that.
We have already let the the free market system rule and it has given us the mess we have now in all aspects of our economy and the health care crisis. Do you think the health care system we have now is good and serves the best interests of our citizenship?
The public option will not bring us to socialism. It will never happen in this country but it will bring choices, more affordable health care options and put pressure on the private insurance companies to clean up its act. It's called competition.....something the free market system loves.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
You are mistaken. The town hall meetings were not about race. They are about the US spending Trillions of $, and socializing health-care in the middle of a recession.
We have been going away from the free market system for quite a few years now.
The Free Market is not operational in the case of the health-care system. It is already half socialized. I agree with you that the system is broken, but the fix needs to move us in the other direction, towards free markets.
Pardon me, but the government stepping in is *not* competition. It will become a monopoly.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by liesandmorelies: Buster said: "(((I am against free healthcare and I am in my right mind. Materials(drugs) and labor(care) have costs in any form of business. The problem I have with it is taking money from one group of people and giving it to another group."
The difference is that a government option is not about the bottom line or profits, therefore more of the money will actually be spent on healthcare.
The only current plans are based soley on profits. We must offer a plan that has an affordable option.
Currently the people who don't have a plan spend far more than they would if they had an affordable option, hence costing us all more money. It's not cost effective to wait until someone is seriously ill before we treat them.
Lyme patients know this all too well. It makes no sense to have people being treated through an ER when they could easily for most things get preventative care.
WE are the only industrialized nation in the world that does not have a plan for all people. Talk about wasting money.
All sides agree that this a major problem and one that needs fixing. We are going broke over this whole mess.
We are losing jobs due to this issue. People are losing their homes and everything they have worked for over this issue.
This does not happen in other modernized Countries that offer a plan for everyone.
it really boils down to a philosophical and moral difference. There are those that believe "ALL" people should have an "Affordable" option and there are those that "Don't" think that "ALL" should have that option.
So it really boils down to which side of the fence you are on.
I personally believe that we are not living in the stone ages. Just like we as a society agree we should have roads, water, electricity etc....those things are regulated.
I believe that at a minimum, that all ppl should have an affordable option. And, quite frankly, I am already being rationed in regards to what I can have and can't have in relation to my Lyme Disease and I have what many would consider good insurance. What a joke.
I think a new option(Note: the word OPTION) will drive competition too, which I would think ppl would like. Currently the Insurance Agency's, Drug Company's, and Medical Community at large charge whatever they want and we are at their mercy.
Of course this new option will not be free, but will be cheaper and save our country from ruin if we sit and do nothing. It may cost us 900Billion dollars to enact, but you have to consider the money you will re-coup and will save by adding this option, which will help significantly reduce the 900Billion we will need to spend.
I personally do not think it will be a complete wash(meaning it may cost us some money, but if we can continue spending millions daily on other things like a war, then I think we can spend some on a plan that is the right thing to do for Americans that don't have an affordable option.
Also, we will be creating healthier people, hence healthier workers, hence better educated people, hence better jobs, hence better position in the world economically. Just my opinion.
What we can do about cheaper healthcare is allow people to buy insurance from insurance companies outside of their state. That would make for more competition and competition always drives prices down.
We can also stop people from suing doctors for millions of dollars if they don't like their nose jobs, or if the doctor makes a mistake. I think it is a right to sue, but to sue for multi-million dollars is very wasteful and just giving lawyers fat pockets.
Also, if the government would not pander so much to the FDA, CDC, pharma companies ect. prices would also fall and drugs can come in from other companies... this would increase competition.
Look at the stats, government has created only 3% of the drugs that americans now use all the rest have been produced by private industry. Did thomas edison invent the light bulb under the government? What about all the other inventors? What inventions came out of USSR, North Vietnam, China, North Korea, ect?
I take no sides with parties. I don't vote because when voting, it is like voting for the lesser of the 2 evils for the past 100 years or more. I just don't believe in taking money from one person and giving it to another. I believe in charity, not taking. This is what government is going to do.
Not to mention even longer waiting lines and healthcare will be rationed more so than it is already.
Democracy is when 51% of the people can make laws and tell the other 49% of people what to do. It is not right... That is why we started out as a republic.
Keep the government strong enough to protect the 'natural' rights of citizens but small enough to keep government off the backs of citizens. Why do you think people came here to start a country like that and why did they spend 200 years write a Constitution?
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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Abxnomore
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If you could read between the lines you would be able to tell that much of the angry and organized mobs at the town halls was about race. It was very obvious to me.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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There's no way I can convince you of this, but It was not about race. It (as well as the tea parties) is very much a grass roots effort, and not organized from above.
Now, some racists may choose to try to hijack the events, but it is not racial.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
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I don't need convincing, thank you.
It's not a grass roots movement. It was started by Dick Armey supplied with money from the insurance companies and from big pharma to for the purpose of disrupting public discourse. He has been thoroughly exposed and his movement.
It attracted its followers but it's not a true grass roots movement.
"FreedomWorks, which was one of the lobbying groups involved in orchestrated the anti-Obama "tea parties" on April 15, 2009, in summer of 2009 began pursuing an aggressive strategy to create the image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform at Congressmembers' town-hall meetings in their districts. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website "Tea Party Patriots," describes how members should infiltrate town hall meetings and harass and intimidate Democratic members of Congress:
Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put tIle Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up ... You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation. Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early. If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have someone else follow-up with a shout-out ... The goal is to rattle him ..."
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
ABXnomore, what is the problem with organizing and voicing your opinion?
Freedom of speech is a natural right of all people. They have as much a right to voice their opinion as does the Code Pink, PETA, anti-war, ect. All groups use these tactics. I'm not picking sides, just stating that they have the freedom to do it.
Don't suppress anyones voice.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
He's just taking credit for something he didn't organize.
Also, Big Pharma is actually running an ad campaign in favor of ObamaCare.
Yes, disruptive tactics have worked well. The Right has just caught onto tactics which the left has been using for quite a while. Remember the anti-war protestors ?
This Health-Care reform is not a friend to Lymies. The approach they use to cut costs will make things harder for LLMDs, especially the unified database and things like that. Evidence based medicine is also scary on the horizon.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: He's just taking credit for something he didn't organize.
Also, Big Pharma is actually running an ad campaign in favor of ObamaCare.
Yes, disruptive tactics have worked well. The Right has just caught onto tactics which the left has been using for quite a while. Remember the anti-war protestors ?
This Health-Care reform is not a friend to Lymies. The approach they use to cut costs will make things harder for LLMDs, especially the unified database and things like that. Evidence based medicine is also scary on the horizon.
Bingo! This will hurt our lyme research, LLMDs, and increase our wait times while also rationing our treatment even more than it already is.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
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posted
[B"]ABXnomore, what is the problem with organizing and voicing your opinion?"[/B]
It's wrong and interferes with the democratic process to deliberately organize for the sole purpose to be disruptive as out lined in the instructions posted below from Freedom Works to disrupt the flow of public discourse. The town halls were organized for people to voice their
opinions and ask questions in an effort to gather information. Dick Armey and his recruits bused in people to shout down the speaker and stop the flow of information and public discourse. That is wrong and their behavior was despicable. Read the instructions that were given again, below:
Quite different than voicing ones opinion or organizing an anti- war protest that is organized and not interrupting another meeting.
Can you grasp the difference. I would hope so.
"FreedomWorks, which was one of the lobbying groups involved in orchestrated the anti-Obama "tea parties" on April 15, 2009, in summer of 2009 began pursuing an aggressive strategy to create the image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform at Congressmembers' town-hall meetings in their districts. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website "Tea Party Patriots," describes how members should infiltrate town hall meetings and harass and intimidate Democratic members of Congress:
Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put tIle Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up ... You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation. Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early. If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have someone else follow-up with a shout-out ... The goal is to rattle him ..."
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: [B"]ABXnomore, what is the problem with organizing and voicing your opinion?"[/B]
It's wrong and interferes with the democratic process to deliberately organize for the sole purpose to be disruptive as out lined in the instructions posted below from Freedom Works to disrupt the flow of public discourse. The town halls were organized for people to voice their
opinions and ask questions in an effort to gather information. Dick Armey and his recruits bused in people to shout down the speaker and stop the flow of information and public discourse. That is wrong and their behavior was despicable. Read the instructions that were given again, below:
Quite different than voicing ones opinion or organizing an anti- war protest that is organized and not interrupting another meeting.
Can you grasp the difference. I would hope so.
"FreedomWorks, which was one of the lobbying groups involved in orchestrated the anti-Obama "tea parties" on April 15, 2009, in summer of 2009 began pursuing an aggressive strategy to create the image of mass public opposition to health care and clean energy reform at Congressmembers' town-hall meetings in their districts. A leaked memo from Bob MacGuffie, a volunteer with the FreedomWorks website "Tea Party Patriots," describes how members should infiltrate town hall meetings and harass and intimidate Democratic members of Congress:
Spread out in the hall and try to be in the front half. The objective is to put tIle Rep on the defensive with your questions and follow-up ... You need to rock-the-boat early in the Rep's presentation. Watch for an opportunity to yell out and challenge the Rep's statements early. If he blames Bush for something or offers other excuses -- call him on it, yell back and have someone else follow-up with a shout-out ... The goal is to rattle him ..."
Yes I saw the instructions. But they had every right to be there, to voice their opinions, when this country was being formed their was plenty of shouting and even physical fighting. These townhall protestors stayed within the law. I like people that have their views and express them, if we all agreed on everything, then we would be living blindly.
Don't try to tear down these people but then say the anti-war protestors were not like this. I can show you video after video of violent and deadly anti-war protests. Being violent and deadly is wrong but yelling, cheering, and expressing opinion.... have at it all you want.
You can disagree with people but don't silence them. Silence is the art of a tyrant.
It's not about democrat vs republicans. It's about control vs. freedom. I side with freedom every time.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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posted
There is a huge difference going to a protest and a town hall meeting. That is not what town hall meetings are for and it's taking the rights of the people who go there to gather information away from them.
It's like if someone shouts fire in a movie theatre, when there's no fire. It's wrong and illegal.
These nut cases go to these town hall meetings solely to disrupt and shut down these informational meetings. If ppl can't see the difference than I fear that we may be in bigger trouble than can ever be helped.
Again, you have the right to say what you want at protests, etc....but Town Hall meetings are not free for anyone to scream, rant, rave etc.... Just like if I host a wedding for my daughter and some nut case comes in and trys to disturb the service, that person has no right to stop the wedding and or disturb the service.
You can spin it however you want, but the law does not allow as much freedom as you believe it does.
You have a right at a town hall meeting to ask questions. You don't have a right to be rude, yell, chant, and purposely stop the town hall meeting from going on by behaving badly.
Again, these are not protests. Disgusting, dispicable displays of behavior have been shown recently at these town halls.
I am all for free speech, but free speech does not mean you have the right to stop the others from their free speech by displaying this type of behavior.
Dick Armey has every right to form a protest/Rally, but no right to disturb a meeting in that manner.
Just like college kids don't have a right to go into a lecture and shout whatever the heck they want because they don't like the professor teaching the course.
Think about it.
How will we ever get anywhere if we have ppl who will use this excuse for poor behavior. What the heck are we becoming. It scares me to death. Pardon the pun.
Ps you are losing no freedoms, by sitting politely and asking questions politely...When you can't control yourself or purposely disturb the peace, that is when your so called freedom, just stole my freedom from me.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
They only showed you on the news channels the people shouting. They were not shouting the whole time if you watched them on CSPAN or the internet leaks. Yeah the shouting can get annoying but what about the people not letting certain people into townhalls? The pro-healthcare side has been busing people in as well (acorn, unions, and activist groups) I have also read about 2 or 3 fights started by union members. Some of Obama's townhalls have had plants out in the crowds.
There is always 2 sides to the story and the media will only cover parts they want to. This is why I watch CSPAN and my local news.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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Abxnomore
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Liesandmorelies , well said. A welcomed voice of reason here and your screen name could not be more appropriate for this topic, as well.
Buster....give it a break. She made the distinction very well. If you can't grasp it fine but stop trying to defend a position that is patently wrong and has been exposed for the entire nation to see.
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Truthfinder
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posted
Unfortunately, many people are confused about what constitutes a `right' to something.
A `right' doesn't cost anyone anything. By its very nature, it is free - for everyone. Read the Bill of Rights.
A legitimate right is something one can have without any action being taken by another. If it is a right, it will not require taking something from one person to give to someone else.
To take something from someone else, in order that you might have something you would not normally have, does not constitute a 'right.'
Yet there are many politicians, who should know better, who are known to misuse the concept of a `right'. John Edwards, for example, said some of the most important basic human rights were healthcare, Internet access, and American citizenship. He failed to mention a single issue delineated in The Bill of Rights. The Clintons, Obama, Senators Dodd, Reid, Kennedy, and Kerry have all said similar things.
All of those things mentioned and including education, food, shelter, etc. are all nice things to have - maybe even essential for life - but guaranteeing them for you would require that someone else provide them.
To claim you have a 'right' to healthcare means that you are depriving someone else of their liberty. They must pay your bill if you cannot afford it. Taxes must be raised on the masses to cover the fact that the care you receive will not be paid for by you.
It is practically and rationally impossible to secure a right by infringing on the rights of others.
So, we may term healthcare a lot of things, but it isn't a `right'.
What may constitute a `right' is that our government insure us a fair and equitable marketplace for pursuit of those things essential for life.
And this, I believe, is where our government has totally and utterly failed us. We cannot `fix' anything with healthcare or energy or education or much of anything else until we route out political and corporate corruption.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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daystar1952
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Thankyou TruthFinder and Lymie for posting your excellent points.
JUST TRYING TO GET PEOPLE'S ATTENTION WITH THE CAPS
Michael Moore and people on this board are saying how bad the big corporations are. Well this is true BUT the government is MESHED with the corporations....so....more power to the government EQUALS more power to the corporations. Will anyone acknowledge this and agree that we need to investigate how deeply the government is intertwined with corporations before we ever accept more extensive government run healthcare?
Demanding this type of investigation can't be wrong. If people ignore this statement or say something is wrong with it...then it would make me wonder why they thought it was wrong.
Does anyone agree that there should be an investigation? I believe that should be our focus instead of arguing back and forth...which is what they want us to do....Divide and conquer
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daystar1952
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Truthfinder
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You are right, daystar.
And one other thing: Our mainstream media is corrupt, as well. Much of the illicit actions on the part of goverment and the private sector would have already been exposed if we had an honest, truly 'free press'.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: Believe it or not, most people don't care all that much about race and color anymore. We elected a black man to be president.
What planet is this? I would like to move there.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by nomoremuscles: What planet is this? I would like to move there.
There are racial issues. But it's not as much of a problem as you think, If 53% of people voted for Obama.
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Abxnomore
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"Believe it or not, most people don't care all that much about race and color anymore. We elected a black man to be president."
You are getting your talking points mixed up because 53% is slightly more than half the county. What about the other half. That's a large number.
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Abxnomore
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The President's Plan for Health Reform
``It will provide more security and stability to those who have health insurance. It will provide insurance to those who don't. And it will lower the cost of health care for our families, our businesses, and our government." - PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
If You Have Health Insurance, the President's Plan:
* Ends discrimination against people with pre-existing conditions. * Limits premium discrimination based on gender and age. * Prevents insurance companies from dropping coverage when people are sick and need it most. * Caps out-of-pocket expenses so people don't go broke when they get sick. * Eliminates extra charges for preventive care like mammograms, flu shots and diabetes tests to improve health and save money. * Protects Medicare for seniors. * Eliminates the ``donut-hole'' gap in coverage for prescription drugs.
If You Don't Have Insurance, the President's Plan:
* Creates a new insurance marketplace -- the Exchange -- that allows people without insurance and small businesses to compare plans and buy insurance at competitive prices. * Provides new tax credits to help people buy insurance. * Provides small businesses tax credits and affordable options for covering employees. * Offers a public health insurance option to provide the uninsured and those who can't find affordable coverage with a real choice. * Immediately offers new, low-cost coverage through a national ``high risk'' pool to protect people with preexisting conditions from financial ruin until the new Exchange is created.
For All Americans, the President's Plan:
* Won't add a dime to the deficit and is paid for upfront. * Requires additional cuts if savings are not realized. * Implements a number of delivery system reforms that begin to rein in health care costs and align incentives for hospitals, physicians, and others to improve quality. * Creates an independent commission of doctors and medical experts to identify waste, fraud and abuse in the health care system. * Orders immediate medical malpractice reform projects that could help doctors focus on putting their patients first, not on practicing defensive medicine. * Requires large employers to cover their employees and individuals who can afford it to buy insurance so everyone shares in the responsibility of reform.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Abxnomore: You are getting your talking points mixed up because 53% is slightly more than half the county. What about the other half. That's a large number.
Bill Clinton got 49.x% of the vote. So being black didn't hurt Obama at all.
There are quite a few black/colored republicans.
Michael Steele, RNC Chairman Condoleezza rice Colin Powell Martin Luther King was Republican! Bobby Jindal, GOP governor of Louisiana is of Indian origin. Clarence Thomas, was nominated to the supreme court by George HW Bush.
In short, being black is not as much of a disadvantage as you think.
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daystar1952
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What does race have to do with the points I am making? You are diverting people's attention away from what should be the main focus....investigating the connections between government health agencies and corporations.
Those who want to cloud and skirt around the issues either change the subject or make the issue into something it never was in the first place. Race is not the point
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quote:Originally posted by daystar1952: Those who want to cloud and skirt around the issues either change the subject or make the issue into something it never was in the first place. Race is not the point
Tell that to ABX who brought up race as an issue. The opposition to Obama has never been racial.
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Abxnomore
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Who said it hurt him? I said the issues on the right that are causing so much hate to be spewed are partly motivated by race. The behavior on the right is hurting the country, not the President.
You can't distinguish between the different issues.
Your list was not necessary. I am very well informed and have also not heard the term "colored" used since the "civil rights" era. I don't think the term "colored" is considered politically correct.
Indians are Indians, not colored. Indigenous Americans are Native Americans, no distinction needed.
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lymie_in_md
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I agree with truthfinder that health care isn't a right. However, healthcare is to important for the well being of the country, to not cover everyone. For those who think it is two expensive to cover everyone, I want you to take a look at 10 people you know well, and in your mind decide who shouldn't be covered. They lost there job and they lose there insurance.
Lets look at one aspect of cost going into to H1N1. We the american citizens are padding the pockets of big pharma with several billion dollars for vaccines that or may not work. Are they necessary and was that a good way to spend money. I think back to a post about homeopathy use in Cuba to prevent leptospirosis another spirokete bacteria. For 2 1/2 million people it was more successful then the vaccines used. The cost difference went from 3 million dollars for the normal vaccine to 100,000 dollars for the homeopathic vials.
Remember my arguement about the multi million dollar pen that defies gravity versus a pencil. To save money you have to practically solve problems, there just isn't enough oversite for this and an enormous amount of waste is created.
The idea of cost is a big issue. And there is way too much greed in the process. We have to get greed out of it.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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daystar1952
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I agree with you Ninjaphire. I was directing my post to whomever it applied to. Thanks for pointing out who keeps diverting from the topic of investigating alliances between government health agencies and corporations involved with healthcare.
The president can say whatever he wants but if the foundation or identity of the government is corporations they will find a way to mould it all to their benefit. That is why before we get deeper into any system, we should examine it all very carefully.
Posts: 1176 | Registered: Oct 2002
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Originally posted by Abxnomore: The President's Plan for Health Reform
``It will provide more security and stability to those who have health insurance. It will provide insurance to those who don't. And it will lower the cost of health care for our families, our businesses, and our government." - PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA
If You Have Health Insurance, the President's Plan: ...
These things will make insurance very expensive and basically kill private insurance. After all if you were young and healthy why would you pay lots of money for insurance you may never use ? If You Don't Have Insurance, the President's Plan: ...
In theory it's going to increase competition, but it's not likely to happen if private insurance is regulated out of existence.
For All Americans, the President's Plan:
* Won't add a dime to the deficit and is paid for upfront.
This is a lie, for reasons mentioned below. * Requires additional cuts if savings are not realized.
This will almost certainly happen, cuts will be necessary. * Implements a number of delivery system reforms that begin to rein in health care costs and align incentives for hospitals, physicians, and others to improve quality.
Basically, save money, even if care is compromised. * Creates an independent commission of doctors and medical experts to identify waste, fraud and abuse in the health care system.
Again, save money, even if care is compromised. There isn't enough waste, fraud and abuse in the current system to pay for a larger new system. And even if there is, the waste and fraud is very very hard to remove, or it would already have been removed. * Orders immediate medical malpractice reform projects that could help doctors focus on putting their patients first, not on practicing defensive medicine.
There is no tort reform in the healthcare bill, and there is not going to be. They're just making stuff up now. * Requires large employers to cover their employees and individuals who can afford it to buy insurance so everyone shares in the responsibility of reform. It turns out that the incentives in the bill actually encourage employers to drop employee insurance. The fine they pay will actually be less than the cost of the mandatory insurance, which will skyrocket...
Basically, you're forcing young healthy people to buy insurance to pay for sick people. How is that even remotely fair ?
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