Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
I hold the same beliefs as "Lies". I hope we get a good health care bill passed with a strong public option, so that we can be a nation to feel proud of. I find the situation we have been in for years to be a national disgrace.
Truthfinder, what do you mean by this:
"taking from one group to give to another."
I don't see it like that at all.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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METALLlC BLUE
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6628
posted
My girlfriend who is from Italy says that her, her friends, family and most other people she knows in Europe love President Obama, but they think it's a real shame that Americans don't care enough about others to even take care of their own. They said "Americans throw money at dictators and oppressive leaders by the trillions over the last 20 years, but they have homeless, hungry and dying people -- especially infants -- who aren't receiving proper medical care.
They say it's disgusting the lifestyle of people who can't afford to eat healthful options because the street corner fast food restaurant has a dollar menus that can feed them unrelentingly fattening foods for 1/4th the cost of a meal that is health sustaining or that should be prepared for the dinner table at night.
They say that many americans have too much stress from working too many hours at a job that often pays too little. They say it's sad that we eat dinner in front of our TV sets instead of with family, because mom and dads "both" often have to work long hours to make the payments for insurance premiums -- which still don't often cover many necessary things, especially in people with chronic conditions.
The final nail in the coffin (no pun intended for those who die from lack of healthcare) was they said that while the longevity of the average person in the U.S. is around 75 yrs old, their quality of life really isn't great. They spend much time sitting at desk jobs, don't have enough nice walking areas in every town that are pedestrian friendly and easily accessible to everyone, and people are often depressed and lonely because they spend more time in front of a computer and far less time with people.
The bottomline Erica says is that people would be much healthier, happier and live more productive lives if "Health" was a primary concern of the Government. Easily accessible and affordable health care -- especially preventative care and education on lifestyle, stress management, and eating habits would go a long way to invoking good quality of life. She says that the governments (local especially) should create environments that make it easy for people to walk like they do in Italy.
You know what? I agree with her. Our tax dollars should be helping "The people." That is the whole point of a good government. Ironically, that's what Obama has been doing. She said it's really sad -- even pathetic -- that people are fighting him so much when all he's trying to do is give them back the better lives they have been asking for. They say they want it, but when it comes time to pay the price and to act upon it, the Americans don't care enough about each other to do it, and that they're selfish and afraid of change. The majority voted for President Bush twice, that says it all about your country.
Now why should we care what anyone else outside our borders thinks? Because they can often see things in us that we can't see.
-------------------- I am not a physician, so do your own research to confirm any ideas given and then speak with a health care provider you trust.
posted
I am still in wonder why everyone in America thinks every single commodity is a right to all Americans just because they are Americans.
America was built on the basis that if you work hard enough, you can get as high up the ladder as you choose. Bascially, you get what you work for. The harder you work, yadayada.
No one saved our Local Americal Farmers when the banks were taking all of the farm land from them. But, we are going to rush to the car companies aid (who refuse to negotiate their terms) and the banks aide, now we are going to add Healthcare and Clean Fuel to our deficeit.
We are broke people, no matter who or how many think that Healthcare, Food, utilities are a RIGHT, America is broke!!! The word deficeit means in the negetive. SO, we need to fix that first...or the Chinese will be deciding our healthcare!!
Posts: 893 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2008
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"No one saved our Local Americal Farmers when the banks were taking all of the farm land from them. But, we are going to rush to the car companies aid (who refuse to negotiate their terms) and the banks aide, now we are going to add Healthcare and Clean Fuel to our deficeit."
Needs you are right, perhaps we should be saving or should have saved local farmers. Perhaps we should save or help to save the mom and pop shops and local businesses.
I would venture to guess as I have spent a lot of time talking to Democrats and liberals, that the vast majority agree with you and think that small farms should be saved. Most Democrats have fought for that and voted for that too.
The ppl that I have found that either don't care about local farming are the people who want to get the lowest, cheapest price at the grocery store and therefore do not care if the huge corporate Agricultural and Farming company's come in and take over.
For the most part they are not the ones that support Obama.(at least not the ones that I know that support Obama). All my friends that are liberal support local farming . So, I guess I am not quite understanding what you are saying.
I owned 40 plus acres in prime upstate NY Ag land and had a farmer who farmed my land. He lost his business due to corp. america farming. He now has no insurance. He is exactly the kind of person that needs this and IMHO has a right. He worked hard, did the right thing and is now brushed under the carpet like he does not exist.
He did what you said above, in that he worked hard enough(And still, it wasn't good enough). He worked and had it all taken away from him, just like ppl who are losing their jobs and their health care.
It does not add up. He worked and did the right thing and now we are just going to turn our back on him. This is happening to millions upon millions of hardworking people. It could happen to most of us. And, I know I have been a hard worker and so has my husband.
His whole life was farming and now he has nothing. I agree we should have helped him. It's a shame and not the American way to allow Corporate America to own everything.
I am a firm believer of shopping local and try my best to avoid big box stores whenever I can. I boycott stores like Walmart and the like all the time. All they have done is sent our manufacturing jobs across the sea.
So on that one you are absolutely correct and I would also guess that many that want and believe in an affordable option also think we should save local farming.
I think it all comes down to preconceived ideas of how one chooses to spend ones money. We obviously have the money for war and space programs etc....(I am not implying that we should not use or spend money on those) I am just saying there has to be a balance of where we spend our money.
Also, I don't think we are broke when our upper class and our poorer class are growing. It's a proven fact that our upper class is growing in number. Of course our poorer class should not have to pay for this proposed plan, but the upper is definitely not broke or that class would not be growing in number year by year.
I also agree with you in that I do not like having a deficit. George Bush had a surplus and squandered it away(again in my opinion).
I feel like the wealthy should pay for this through taxes. Not the middle class, but the wealthy. I feel (in my opinion that they owe it to the person who made them what they are as I have stated in other posts).
Most of Obama's plan will be paid for by savings and collected premiums. If we incur any other costs the wealthy should pay it.
Again we should ask ourselves how is it that everyone is suffering this economic problem, but the wealthy are growing in numbers right before our eyes?????
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
"Tea Party protesters trying to tout the size of their march on Washington last weekend have been passing around a photo of a packed National Mall. But the picture is years old.
Politifact asked Pete Piringer, public affairs officer for the D.C. Fire and Emergency Department, if the rally was big enough to fill that space. Piringer said no -- and moreover, the picture can't be from 2009."
Your last post reminded me about a current event in my town.
We have a large local Medical Center here in my town and there were some doctors who were recently having a symposium/conference and this very subject was talked about very heavily.
The local news came and reported as they were interviewing the doctors about the state of healthcare and whether they supported a public option.
Although there were some opposing opinions. By and large the vast majority of doctors who ranged from Pediatricians to Heart Surgeons agreed that we should and do need an option for the uninsured Americans that don't have one.
They also discussed and we very vocal about how broken our system was and how change was needed ASAP.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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I don't know about that. I do know that it scares my LLMD, and he's a kuchnich supporter, hardly right wing.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
I'm going to throw a new wrinkle in your debate. I believe if you break arm or have a cold or have strep any class of easily treated malidies should be covered for every citizen in the U.S.. Just like I think every child in the United States must be educated ( that's not covered by the constitution either nor the bill of rights).
I no longer believe cancer should be covered, nor vaccines nor flu shots (they are all ineffective -- homeopathy is better, cheaper and safer).
Instead of covering cancer, divert all the money used in cancer research to improve diet, water, and our environment. Prevent cancer at the beginning not at the end, and improve people's quality of life. If you look at the numbers, cancer treatment is a real failure and that is where all the money is going.
And by the way, cancer treatment isn't in the constitution either, why should it be included in insurance.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
First I'll say that doctors have fought against this for years, so I think it speaks volumes that they are supporting it now.
I like to look at medical coverage for all as the "right thing to do" as opposed to whether or not it's a right that is defined in any of our governing documents. To me that is the issue. Do we, as a society, want to do the right thing; as all of the other industrialized nations have decided to do long before our current debate about it.
Bob I don't think I'll go as far as you and say that cancer, flu shots and vaccines should not be covered but I do agree with your philosophy. If experimenting with something like this proves to be effective and we don't need them, I'd be the first to day yes. I don't get flu shots, will not get any new vaccines but for young children I'm not 100% sure all should be eliminated but don't like the way they are being administered now. We give more than any other country in a very short span of time and the the amounts given and timing has changed greatly since I was young and received my vaccinations. Right now I'm not 100% comfortable in totally doing away with them; I simply don't know enough about whether homeopathy will truly work the same way but do understand the dangers of vaccines.
I believe that improving diet, water, and the environment will likely cut down on cancer greatly and prevent it and hopefully will eliminate the need for such treatment, most of which is often a waste of money and causes undue patient suffering. But it does have be measured against the particular situation. Some people actually do survive cancer, if the circumstances are right and it's caught early, but I for one, would not take mainstream cancer therapy. And some mainstream cancer treatments are not as bad as others. If a cancer could be cut out, that is often a good option but yes, finding a way from preventing cancer is the right emphasis.
I do think we need to address as a society when it is appropriate or not. I have had members of my family die from this illness and it is very clear to me that doctor's use cancer patients as guinea pigs up until the moment of death. My family always knew when enough was enough and to say no. But the sad fact is I've seen cases where people had days left to live and they were still pumping more poison, into them to see the results, when it was very clear that the patient could not survive.
I agree with you that in the vast majority of cases cancer treatment is a failure and the methods we have come up with to combat it are bad. It's just poisons the entire body and the patient suffers terribly. But we can't lump all cancers into one pot. For example thyroid cancer has a very high success rate, treatment is not devastating as in other types and most go on to lead normal lives.
I'd like to see a more healthy balance like they do in other parts of the world using homeopathy and allopathic medicine but certainly I agree with you that so much money is wasted on cancer research because the emphasis is in the wrong place. It needs to be on prevention. If we would clean up our toxic environment, eat better quality food grown without pesticides, antibiotics and all the bad things agri business puts in our food (in fact get rid of agri business), have clean pure drinking water and a better philosophy of how to live life as Metallic Blue discussed in one of his posts, we would have a lot less cancer in this society. Americans fiercely individual stand in some ways serves them ill. Metallic illustrated this well in his post. America is a a very lonely, alienated society. Not so in Europe and other parts of the world despite industrialization. It's just two completely different mindsets but in Europe and most parts of the world there is always a central square where people come to mingle. Having close social relationships with friends and family are just as important, if not more, than a good career. Emphasis in on living life, not fabulous careers, acquired tons of $$$ and material things, certainly not to the extreme like it is in America. So many studies show that those who live lonely isolated lives die younger.
But if we really wanted to talk about prevention and your approach then we would have to get after the muti national corporations and stop them from producing all the bad food stuffs that are on the super market shelves and the toxic substances they use to produce so many consumer products, as well. We would have to have a really educated public and also stop them from marketing to children to buy the unhealthy stuff on the supermarket shelf. We would really need an entirely different approach to life and living in this society and an educated proactive population.
In a nutshell, I believe that emphasis on prevention, a clean environment and better lifestyle, instead of drugs and invasive treatment, when not absolute necessary would serve us all better. So I'll meet you 3/4 of the way on this but would love to see an environment the way you describe it, if I could be convinced it would work.
[ 09-15-2009, 10:43 AM: Message edited by: Abxnomore ]
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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quote: But if we really wanted to talk about prevention and your approach then we would have to get after the muti national corporations and stop them from producing all the bad food stuffs that are on the super market shelves and the toxic substances they use to produce so many consumer products, as well. We would have to have a really educated public and also stop them from marketing to children to buy the unhealthy stuff on the supermarket shelf. We would really need an entirely different approach to life and living in this society and an educated proactive population.
It would be a way to get out of this mess . And stop destruction of resources and environment. Unfortunately I think it will never happen -humans en mass are not capable of acting logically and productively.
If it was ,say about you and me we could agree on something like this and act on it , but the action needs to be done on national and even planetary scale. At this level population is simply a very dumb sheep easily manipulated by mass media and whose sole interest in life is boundless consumption, 95% of them produce absolutely nothing useful and their only summary contribution is pollution and destruction of resources.
At the top of the food chain (those who make decisions and have power and money) there is no interest in change either,as capitalistic economies ( their source of wealth and power is) is driven by ever increasing consumption, status quo will be kept
We had reached the level of technology necessary for building sustainable and balanced society but we (as a whole) do not have any desire or incentive to do so. Technology is used almost solely for driving the vicious circle -in fact sustainable technologies are driven out of the market because they do not contribute as much to capitalistic economies (which rely on destruction of resources are in public domain - therefore "free")
Alas - at some point the current system will crash (as resources are finite and damage we doing is serious and accumulating), it will end up in disaster for humanity (maybe even wipeout), but maybe more intelligent beings will emerge out of it
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
I made the point about cancer, vaccines, flu shots, because how closed the medical thinking truly is. If we are going to fix health care we have to look at health first. It starts with the DNA that forms life and the environment that life lives in. I suspect we spend very little money giving the health care dollars on the first stages of life.
It is true that homeopathy is much cheaper then vaccines. If it is more effective we should study it to see if it works so it saves money. The problem in proving it, it is not going to make big pharma rich. Hence the problem in the structure of health care, and how we approach health. We need to have independent thinkers on how to structure health before we can determine how to pay for it. The Europeans and Asians are way ahead of us in this regard.
Another way of looking at: what should we pay for diseases like cancer, fibromyalgia, CFS, AFS, gulf war syndrome, lyme, mycoplasma. Or do we pay for health so these issues are more difficult to occur. Build a strong immune system to handle a more chemically, electro-magnetically toxic world. Or some combination of both. Right now I'd guess 90% of all money goes to solving some disease. Name a disease identified and solved with all the money we've spent. If you can name one, how much did we spend.
If we spent a trillion dollars on health and took our chances with cancer and the other diseases. Would the money be better spent.
This is just to put a different spin on how we spend money. And how effectively the money is spent.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
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I am right there with you in your thoughts on health and eastern medicine. I think that doctors think it is all hogwash. But, we do need medicine for emergencies. I wish as a child my parents had taught me how to eat properly. My parents were young when they had me and our diet consisted of macaroni and cheese and ravoli out of a can.
Later I did begin to like tomato sandwiches, but we never ate carrots, salads or anything like that. It is so hard for me now to stick to a good "eating plan". Even though it is better for me.
I am gaining weight and feeling worse. That should be enough motivation, but it is HARD!! The horrible thing is that I can eat a really healthy lunch, then if someone walks by me with McDonalds french fries, I sometimes feel like I could just snatch the fries from from them. Then, just because I smelled those fries my body is starving, for what...french fries. So, food is my addiction.........and maybe the thing holding me back in treatment.
Sorry so wordy...
Shalome
Posts: 893 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2008
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I agree that mainstream medicine should include alternative medicines that have been used for hundreds if not thousands of years, but alas we know who owns the cards don't we??? Corporate America will never give up their grasp on that one, that's why we have to fight them.
I think there needs to be a balance of spending money on both preventative and then spending money when ppl become ill. We are spending far too little on preventive and education etc.. So on that point I really do agree with you.
Where I think we will get into trouble is that, ppl are very ill with all the disease that you described above. I don't think you would get the support to just stop treating the people who have or come down with these things.
I don't think people would vote to put all the money into what you propose, although I think we should follow the example of what many other country's are doing in this regard. They are way ahead of us.
I do know if my child came down with cancer, I would want to treat him or her and try to save their life. Again, I personally think there needs to be a balance of where the money goes, butt definitely can see your point.
It would be nice to see a lot more money going into homeopathy and environment control i/e reduction of pesticides, poisoning water etc....I would love to see natural and holistic medicine being accepted and offered at the mainstream level.
Our doctors are basically not allowed(based on their oath to what western medicine dictates) to recommend Chiropractors, holistic medicine, etc....
Example, my GP doctor would not tell me who a good Chiro was, but when I pressed the issue and said, okay, tell me who all the doctors in this practice go and see, he told me that. It ticked me off that he wouldn't tell me when I asked because he could not look as if he was prescribing a chiro, but as soon as I said, I know you all go to chiro's who do you all see, he told me.
This is exactly the problem. Same with my Physical Therapist. They poo-poo Chiro's and alternative medicine(they are so afraid it will take away from their business)...Again, it is about greed and they are brainwashed into thinking all these other alternatives are hogwash.
Anyway, I appreciate your way of looking at things and hope we do change our approach to some degree.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ann-OH
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2020
posted
What a crock!
I think a little more respect for the office of President is absolutely required. Making a hero out of a proven racist who shouts out during an address to congress calling the President a liar, for saying something that is proven and absolutely true is really unforgivable.
Whatever health plan emerges, it will have to be with a compromise first in the House and then in the Senate.
All this public shouting about losing liberty etc. is really painful to watch.
The rest of the world must think the U.S. is full of uneducated,mis-informed, self-centered, fools, easily duped by racist TV and radio rabble-rousers.
I sure hope wiser minds do what is right and correct the current health coverage situation before none of us can afford care.
posted
Hi, a while back people brought up the guy with the gun at the townhall.
He was outside, not in the meeting. Oh, and he wasn't shouting or being rowdy.
And he was black.
Also, I know the Patriot Act came up. Just a couple of days ago Mr. Obama "re-upped" this act, instead of letting it expire in a couple months as it was set to do.
(I think someone had said "show me where Mr. Obama supports the Patriot Act; I don't think you can.")
Posts: 374 | From United States | Registered: Nov 2008
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
Study links 45,000 U.S. deaths to lack of insurance
quote:Originally posted by Snailhead: Hi, a while back people brought up the guy with the gun at the townhall.
He was outside, not in the meeting. Oh, and he wasn't shouting or being rowdy.
And he was black.
Not true, Snail. Unless there was a second gun-to-townhall toting incident of which I'm not aware.
I saw the gun guy being interviewed on a political talk show. Now, my Lyme has definitely affected my eyes, and my vision is not as clear as it once was, but I am pretty certain this guy had a creamy pink pigment to his complexion.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Snailhead: Hi, a while back people brought up the guy with the gun at the townhall.
He was outside, not in the meeting. Oh, and he wasn't shouting or being rowdy.
And he was black.
Not true, Snail. Unless there was a second gun-to-townhall toting incident of which I'm not aware.
I saw the gun guy being interviewed on a political talk show. Now, my Lyme has definitely affected my eyes, and my vision is not as clear as it once was, but I am pretty certain this guy had a creamy pink pigment to his complexion.
posted
Thanks for pointing out that fox news leans to the right, I had no idea. No one should watch them because republicans are always evil and democrats are always good. Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
I haven't much regard for people who form opinions about other people they don't watch and spout opinions about group causes they haven't attended or listened to.
But you look foolish slamming Glenn Beck and accusing him of fear mongering and propaganda when the issues he raises bring about resignations, firings, suspension of funding and investigations.
I charge that you are sadly out of touch with the truth and will remain so until you lay down your bias and you begin to listen and learn for yourself.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Abxnomore
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18936
posted
More than half the country could say the same about your statement.
Posts: 5191 | From Lyme Zone | Registered: Jan 2009
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posted
"I charge that you are sadly out of touch with the truth and will remain so until you lay down your bias and you begin to listen and learn for yourself."
So are you saying that Glen Beck is "IN" touch with reality, and does not have a bias???
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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If you want to buy into Glen Beck being non-biased then that is your choice. I don't believe in basing my decisions on talk show hosts that lie and change their tune just to sell their show.
I tend to watch very little TV and try to read reliable new resources and publications. Many think that real news is people like Hannity, Beck, O'Reilly, Olberman, Colmes, Rush etc....They all quite frankly profit and are sitting there being paid to "entertain" us.
Most recently Beck was shown saying how great the US healthcare system is and yet only one year ago when he had a very bad run in with the healthcare system, he said quite the opposite.
Don't you find that interesting? Would you like me to show you the clips where he does this? Your Mr. Beck hated the healthcare system that we have. Anything for ratings.
If you notice, I tend to post writings and facts from non-biased sources. I watch little in the way of mainstream media garbage and try to base my thoughts and ideas by making informed decisions from reliable sources.
And yes, the truth is certainly the truth!!!!
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
Beck is definitely biased towards liberty and things like that. It's true.
But I also said that All sources are biased. Did you miss this part ?
The problem is that you won't notice the bias if only read certain websites. Like a fish doesn't know what water is, because it's everywhere.
Amazingly enough, he's right on both points.
1. Our healthcare system is terrible and definitely broken. When dogs and cats get better/cheaper healthcare than people, thats one sign. Another sign is how things like Lyme are misdiagnosed and not treated.
2. Our healthcare system is still the best in the world. We have lots of LLMDs in the US compared to Europe. If you get cancer, your prognosis is best in the US. We try the hardest to save premature babies.
There is no contradiction. ObamaCare will push the quality of care in the US down.
posted
Hey, "Best" doesn't mean there's no room for improvement.
You know, for certain problems, It would be cheaper to fly to India, get surgery there with a top notch surgeon and hospital, and it will still be cheaper than a hospital in the US.
Why ? There's no Insurance in India. Very few lawsuits.
My friend did it for a spinal problem, and he also visited his parents at the same time. Win-win.
We need to move the US towards a free-market system, not towards the European/Canadian system, which is already broken ...
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
You know, I have taken a break from all of this. Grandmother, Lies, we know where this is headed.
I have spoken my opinion in the appropriate forums and will be voting my conscience as I am sure you all will be doing.
I'm looking up, building my treasures in heaven and making a point to enjoy my time on earth.
Govts will do what govts will do.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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