Topic: 45% Of Doctors Would Consider Quitting If Congress Passes Health Care Overhaul
luvs2ride
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8090
posted
Ok, all of you who trust our government to do right by us, ask yourself these questions.
Why does Obama want to establish a health insurance company owned by the government? Why not just pay the medical bills for those who can't afford it?
I'll tell you why. Government wants a piece of the action and the profits will not come back to you and me as they do not come back to you and me now.
How do we even know certain programs are broke except that they tell us it is? How come they never say pork barrel projects are broke?
The fat greedy thieves are positioned inside our government.
You want to stop Wall Street greed? Stop corruption in our government. The government is the enabler. Without the government, Wall Street could not run amuck. Think about that real hard. If govt was doing its job, Wall Street would have to tow the line.
Buster points out two very good things but you must be willing to look objectively at the government involvement and stop believing they are looking out for you.
#1-Stocks in insurance companies are rising. Lies, I am not seeing any anti-healthcare ads from insurance companies. I have said it before, I work in the industry and it is amazingly quiet about the whole affair and United Healthcare just held a job fair in our town. They are EXPANDING! Why?
#2-Govt regulation started the whole health insurance-as-a-work-benefit thing which stopped competition. Govt regulation also prevents insurance from being purchased across state lines which stops competition. Now who benefits from no competition?????????
Govt and business are in bed together and that isn't stopping with Obama. He is as much in bed with business and rich corporate giants as any president ever.
Insurance companies are going to administrate the govt plan. This is why they aren't worried about it. This is why their profits are soaring and they are hiring. No layoffs in the healthcare industry.
Wake up! Wake up! Wake up!
Govt taking care of us = Govt raping and pillaging us.
-------------------- When the Power of Love overcomes the Love of Power, there will be Peace. Posts: 3038 | From america | Registered: Oct 2005
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Come on you know you wanna laugh. Laughing is good for your endorphins.
Peace
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
Not able to read what others have written. Just responding to the subject line.
When I came down too sick to work or do household chores...I thought wow I could be a doc.
it seems all they did was shake my hand ask me a few questions within a very limited time frame...
5 min avg and then bill the insurance company.
Mind you. I know the docs are not making the creme of the money here.
I heard it was the insurance company stockholders. Big bucks there.
But, it seemed to me that most docs were more interested in not finding a solution to my health care problem as they would be penalized by the insurance company for doing so.
I had several primary doc's keep rescheduling me until it stretched out for 3 months.
Or stretch out requests for over 3 months and then tell me the insurance company denied the request.
One time I was doing well enough to call the insurance company and was told it was never requested.
I had one even tell me she would not send me to Stanford as recommended by a specialist I had seen because it would come out of her pocket.
Later when talking to the watch dogs for the insurance companies in the state i lived in I was told that the doctor's receive a quarterly bonus if they stay within their contact with the insurance company.
They have a choice of how much of a bonus they will receive depending on what they sign for the contract.
Business first. My health second. I understand needing to stay in business...but it is a health care business.
So, what to do??
Sorry, if I have written this before. Teflon brain.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
I would prefer a subject on some solutions on what to do...
I heard so many stories of people going to the doctors' for help...one had a daughter with cancer that went undx for too long even though she keep going to doctor's for help.
Instead they attacked the mother. The child died.
another went to one hospital and was sent home...had someone drive him 2 hr out of town to another hospital and had open heart surgery right away...was told he would not have made it through the night.
It seemed the doctors' that were willing to help were ones that I paid out of pocket for until the pockets became empty.
I am sure we all have stories of how the health care system let us down.
There is something very wrong when you go to the health professionals for help and they become part of the problem instead of the solution.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
Identify the problem (s) and come up with solutions.
In the case of lyme disease..we need better testing since most doctors' seem to go by test results.
Then they need to be able to treat with long term abx.
If we had better testing, I assume we would have better results with which meds to use.
Of course it is not this simple. But, it is a start.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
I am reminded a bit of when the topic of equal pay for equal work was in debate.
I recall the main focus seemed to be on if we did that we would no longer have separate bath rooms.
That subject was no were in the proposed law. But, it was a scare tactic.
As it turned out, the companies got around the bill by giving females one title and males another title although we were all doing the same work.
OK Wasted energy here. Not feeling well and just wanted to vent. Not a good choice for changing my attitude this am.
MOving on to something more positive I hope.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
Tried to find a list of what the profits were for each health care company without the other stuff but couldn't find it this am.
Found this on fact check.org. What I saw was the large amount of profits.
Insurance Co. Profits: Good, But Not Breaking Records
August 5, 2009 Bookmark and Share
When President Obama said at his July 22 news conference that health insurance companies were making record profits "right now," we thought he might have insider access to corporate earnings data.
After all, most of the top publicly traded companies were on the verge of filing their reports, but only one had done so at the time Obama spoke.
Obama, July 22: Now, you know, there had been reports just over the last couple of days of insurance companies making record profits. Right now, at the time when everybody's getting hammered, they're making record profits and premiums are going up.
A day earlier, UnitedHealth Group had reported its earnings for the second quarter of 2009, which beat analysts' expectations with profit of $859 million.
Still, other quarters have been more profitable for the insurer, such as the first quarter of 2008, when profit rang in at $994 million.
We wondered if there was any other evidence to support Obama's statement now that other earnings reports are in.
The answer is: not much. Humana Inc. logged a quarterly profit of almost $282 million.
But in the third quarter of 2007, it rang up $302 million in profits.
Aetna came in at $347 million in profit for the quarter, which lagged behind its $480 million of a year earlier.
Health Net logged a $40 million profit in the spring quarter, compared with $77 million a year earlier.
Wellpoint's $693 million for the quarter paled next to its third quarter 2008 profit of nearly $821 million.
And Coventry Health Care Inc. wasn't breaking any records, with second quarter profit of about $18 million compared with $83 million a year earlier.
CIGNA's balance sheet showed second quarter profit of $435 million, which was better than anytime in the last couple of years, but the company saw higher numbers in, say, 2004 and 2005.
In the quarter ending June 30, 2005, for instance, the company's net income, or profit, came in at a sizable $720 million.
In general, the health insurance industry did poorly toward the end of 2008 and in the first quarter of 2009, so record profits weren't likely in the second quarter.
Obama was right about one thing: Health insurance premiums have gone up.
The average premium for a family with employer-sponsored insurance rose 5 percent from 2007 to 2008, according to the Kaiser Family Foundation, and has more than doubled since 1999. Figures for 2009 haven't been calculated yet.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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massman
Unregistered
posted
This is fun ! More docs ? How about less docs that get more done ?
I do not recall exact dates + figures (one of you searchers can find it I am sure) but when docs went on strike death rates went down !
And overall lots of $$$, politics and egos involved. IME as a natural health pro for 25 years many MDs are not really there to help the public.
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quote:Originally posted by luvs2ride: Why does Obama want to establish a health insurance company owned by the government? Why not just pay the medical bills for those who can't afford it?
Umm because in US medical bills are outrageously overpriced? $6k for 2 days hospital stay, $15k for ER work up, $300 for 15 min office visit.
And frankly the care US doctors provide is nothing amazing - you would be surprised that some 3d world country doctors are able to provide better care with many times less resources and getting paid a miniscule fraction of what US Drs are
quote: Govt taking care of us = Govt raping and pillaging us.
Its is not like corporation are saints, without government interference they become huge greedy monopolies (check the 30s and great depression).
It is sad that government now is so much in bed with them that most regulation now actually benefit biggest greediest corporation
Posts: 856 | From MA | Registered: Jul 2009
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We are paying more and more and receiving less and less, but I guess that is okay with some people.
You are so correct about doctors being part of the problem too. You don't know how many doctors I had to see and they just would not listen to me. What a waste of my money(everybody's money).
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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I found this and hope it can answer some of your questions. They claim to be a bi-partisan organization. I don't have time to read it now, but thought you could get started. I will read the whole thing later.
"Everyone has an opinion. They are pretty cheap considering everything else."
LOL that is pretty funny and true too.
I have read huge chunks of it, but not the whole thing. I try to read up on it daily and have tried to stay informed as it has changed.
I would venture to guess that most people have not read any or little of it and then there are those that say they have read some, but sound as if they have read something totally different than what the plan actually says. Funny how that works.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: A more important question is that how many of you, and those "surveyed" doctors have actually take time to read what's in the reform bill so far?
My guess is very few.
You'd be wrong. This bill affects their career and livelihood. I'm sure they might have a better idea of what it means than you do.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: A more important question is that how many of you, and those "surveyed" doctors have actually take time to read what's in the reform bill so far?
My guess is very few.
You'd be wrong. This bill affects their career and livelihood. I'm sure they might have a better idea of what it means than you do.
I hope so but I am afraid that most people take everything on Fox News as facts. And that is a fact. Just listen to Bill O'reilly's own words about his listeners.
Oh, I forgot, you can't trust what he says...my bad.
And then there might be a few who are reading what's in the bill for the reason to tear it apart, not for the things they say in public.
The rest, I bet, never give much thought. Most don't really know and have never traveled to a "communism" society to see how bad it really is so they are scared and just follow what others have to say.
I love everyone here but on this topic, I just can't agree with some of my very respected friends. I hope you don't hate me now for my "cheap" opinion on the health care issue.
Most of my friends in the social circle belong to the 42 millions who don't have insurance. And for even my personal obligation, I want them to be insured to the level at least like myself and my family.
I can't imagine how I am going to get by without an insurance for now both my wife and my daughter are under treatment.
posted
wtl, nobody hates you. However, they may think you're misguided.
What you're really arguing for is cheaper healthcare, which is definitely achievable. But this bill is not the way to do it.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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You are not the one that allows the likes of Glen Beck to help you make your decisions.
I pray for all your friends who are among the 47 Million that don't have insurance.
Remember it is easy for those that have to not remember those that have not.
This bill is the best thing that has ever been proposed. Perfect, no, but better than what other administrations have ever proposed yes. Oh, wait, the other administration never proposed anything.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ninjaphire: wtl, nobody hates you. However, they may think you're misguided.
What you're really arguing for is cheaper healthcare, which is definitely achievable. But this bill is not the way to do it.
Good. Now I can sleep.
I keep hearing the opposition party saying the problem can be addressed without a total reform, but the real problem is that I have not heard even slightly what that proposal will be. So sounds like million balloons in the air.
I am from the State where John Buhner kept getting more sun tans every day and runs his thin lips about how bad the president's proposal is. The truth is he has nothing to say other than "If you don't have insurance and you need medical attention, go to the church and ask for donation." Yeah, right, like he really believes that's the true reform for that 47 millions uninsured people.
Or sounds more like a scandal to me...
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: I am from the State where John Buhner kept getting more sun tans every day and runs his thin lips about how bad the president's proposal is. The truth is he has nothing to say other than "If you don't have insurance and you need medical attention, go to the church and ask for donation." Yeah, right, like he really believes that's the true reform for that 47 millions uninsured people.
Or sounds more like a scandal to me...
Thing is, although the Repubs have many ideas, they're all useless right now. They were completely locked out of the process for this bill.
None of these ideas will happen while the Dems hold both houses.
Have to shut this bill down first.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
ninjaphire - not to beat on a dead horse, but I would really like to have these repubs ideas spelled out. I just haven't heard any.
And this really should never be about dems or repubs. i am not sure why some people keep milking this cow...
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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posted
Ninja, The proposed plan in this link will not work
They are only proposing a 5k debit card for "low income" families. This will not address a huge portion of the 47 million that don't have insurance, yet are not what they deem low income.
Do you even know what it costs for coverage for a family of four in a basic plan?
They claim the debit card can be used to put towards insurance or expenses.
Again, ppl will not buy insurance and will continue to go through ER's and blow through their money and will not receive preventative care, which is costing our country billions of dollars.
I think ppl who have employers who offer healthcare benefits do not even realize what these premiums cost. Many only pay their employee share and have no clue.
My brother who is healthy was told he would have to pay 1k per month just for him to buy private insurance.
Do you even think the 5k is going to make a dent in it. And keep in mind that the 5k would be handed over to the private insurance sector only to get less and less of the 5k spent on actual health care than a public option would allow them.
A family of four runs approx anywhere from 1k - 2k per month. So the 5k proposal would not really help these ppl at all. Think about it.
And, what about the family's who make medium salary's like lets say 60k who don't have a plan from their employer. Right now they are expected to pay anywhere form roughly 12k to 24k per year to purchase private insurance depending on the plan and the state etc....
These ppl would not get the 5k debit card at all from what I understand.
From what I can tell this plan does nothing to create competition and or put pressure for the private sector to come down on prices.
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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Americans are happy about the quality and access to healthcare. They are unhappy about the cost. So the plan needs to reduce the costs. Obama's plan will not do anything to reduce costs. It will reduce quality and availability.
The reason why healthcare for a family is expensive, is because they do have lots of healthcare expenses. The only way to fix that is to bring costs down. You cannot hope for insurance to cost less than the expected expenses over the year on average.
Yes, for a family of 4, healtcare will be a major portion of income. That's why we desperately need to reduce costs.
In an ideal world, insurance would be similar to car insurance. Covering emergencies only.
It's also sad that I can't find a good article on the Republican proposal. It's never going to pass, so nobody really cares.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Dont' mean to come across harshly, and of course you can't see me or hear me. I wish we could have a face to face talk as these posts don't let us see emotion or hear inflection.
I think this proposal that you posted would be worse than what we have now.
A 5k debit card will do nothing and it will prolong people from getting preventative services. It will do nothing to force prices down.
Obama's plan helps reduce cost because it is a public option where more of every dollar spent goes directly to actual care. The savings passed on go to reduce the cost of the plan. And the premiums collected will go on to reduce the cost of his plan.
you keep saying that the only way to fix the problem is to bring costs down. How is a 5k debit card going to do that? It is only going to give the low income ppl money to put towards some expenses. It will not encourage them to get and receive preventative care.
Costs will continue to go up as more and more ppl wait until their problems have escalated to a point where they keep going through ER's. How does that reduce costs???
You and I both know that a 6 hour stay in an ER can cost 5k alone.
Another thing, what have we become when we think it is okay for family's to have to spend the bulk of their salary on healthcare?
How is that good for our economy?
That is why so many are underinsured or have no insurance period. We can't expect ppl to spend 25% to 50% of their salary's on healthcare. That is absurd.
We don't live in an ideal world(most americans don't make enough money to pay for insurance on their own). If they are not fortunate enough to have an employer purchasing and paying for the bulk of the premium, most can't even think of buying one on their own. i don't know anyone making 60k per year that can afford to take 12k to 24k per year just to buy a premium.
So the thought about health insurance being like car insurance does not work either. My car gets better treatment than I do.
Right now, I pay my car insurance and I am covered for everything that may come along. Unlike health insurance where they pick and choose what I can have and not have and then they fight you on everything.
What's worse is when you think certain things are covered they come in and say no. Great system that is .
BTW, I am not some stuck in the mud Dem. I have voted all different ways through the years, so to say that nobody cares about the Rep proposal doesn't add up.
The problem is their proposal is a stall tactic and does not answer any of the big problems that we are currently facing with healthcare.
It delays preventative care and does not reduce costs one bit. It does not really help anyone "AFFORD" a plan of coverage. So what is the point of their plan then????
If they were offering real solutions to the problem I would be the first to listen, but all I see is the same ole same ole, meanwhile more and more Americans do not have access to affordable healthcare. This has got to end.
Peace
-------------------- aka: Lyme Warrior
In order to do "real" science, you have to have a "real" conversation with nature.
Well Behaved Women Rarely Make History!
"Just Demand your Rights" Posts: 869 | From nor - cal | Registered: Apr 2008
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posted
ninjaphire - thanks for the link. I enjoy and appreciate your civilized manner in discussing this subject.
It sounds good for a "middle of the road" approach. But when you thnk about it, it is not as "middle of the road" as one can claim. It really is one way for the ones who could afford, but not for the ones who couldn't.
It sounds like the one who has the idea (McCain originally?) has already conceded that the plan won't help those who absolutely can't afford the insurance, like those who lost their jobs and are losing their homes, and many other "unfortunate" people in this richest country on earth.
Second, my insurance costs about $1500/mon for my family, and it's pretty good but still costs too much for me every time I see a doctor. I have a pretty decent income and am willing to "subsidize" some of the cost for other less fortunate. You and I both do anyway because of ERs and other medical cost in the society. It's not like we are not paying. So the cost portion of the repub argument is just a moot point.
5k seems to be alot, but with counting the cost increase in medical insurance in recent years, you tell me how long this is going to help, and how many people this will help.
The original concept of insurance started long before the US was formed as a country. People chip in certain amount of money peridically so that when one has emergency, there is a pot of money to help out. The ones who temperarily need help will have no obligation to contribute until their conditions are improved. Then the rotaation goes on. It really is a "socialism" concept (by the way, human living condition is more socialism by nature as we do depend on each other more than we are independent. Just look at this community here). Historically, that's where the concept come from.
Now looking at that concept again, "mandatory" is a neccessary part of what makes insurance work. It means that all members of the community will have to be part of it in order for the system to work. If only those who need to spend the money are the contributors, the system will go broke. The ones who contribute and never use the money should consider themselves lucky because of their health. same as auto insurance. I pray I will never use my auto insurance or I wil be in a mess.
Politicians can tell you what they want to tell you, in the end, you are mandated to contribute. Everybody is now, through paying the insurance premium or tax. Even at the moment some don't have job and sick or whatever they don't have income to pay, at some point of your life you will do, or your family, or someone who supports you. It is that plain and simple. So I am not sure how we can argue "mandatory" for insurance is a bad thing.
For those who are permanently disabled, both mentally and physically, it is the society's moral duty to take care of them. It has always been this way since the dawn of human race. And I hope repubs don't argue about that since they are the ones who keep pulling the cards like "value" and "morality".
For lowering the cost, I believe there are more ways than the three you listed. It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality. For a starter, public option is one of the ways to lower cost. It might not be good for the insurance industry, but it is damn good for all others. Just look at Swissland, Germany, Taiwan, and Japan.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality.
Sorry, You are wrong. The US healthcare system is the best in the world in terms of quality and access to care. People from Canada come to the US to get ahead of the waiting lists. This aspect of it is worth saving.
Where else in the world can you find LLMDs so easily ?
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
Posts: 893 | From Florida | Registered: Dec 2008
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massman
Unregistered
posted
The quality of the care is poor in this country. Just because there are lots of docs and big fancy machines does not equal quality.
I will search for those stats tomorrow.
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quote:Originally posted by Need Lots of Help: Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
I've been watching this thread. This is the point I was trying to make on page 1. It's been a long time since I have seen a president without self interests. I could make lists of all the recent presidents/administrations.
It is also easy to tell which ones on here are spouting 'I wish you could hear my 'emotion' and which ones are trying to approach the problem in a just and real way. When you try to use emotion in an argument... fact, logic, and reason are thrown out the window.
I've tried but it's hard to reason with people that think Obama is the one that is going to save us. They feel the strong need for free/very cheap healthcare. They want it now and everything will be good and fixed.
I can understand that, but we have to approach the problem without causing further deficit, reduced and rationed care, and without impeding on anyone's rights, and not causing anyone to have to pay higher taxes.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: It is the fact that USA system costs the most and is one of the lowest in quality.
Sorry, You are wrong. The US healthcare system is the best in the world in terms of quality and access to care. People from Canada come to the US to get ahead of the waiting lists. This aspect of it is worth saving.
Where else in the world can you find LLMDs so easily ?
Can you provide the source of your assertion? I only hear this from Rush Lambaugh and Glen Beck.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Need Lots of Help: Everyone on this board should know by now, the number cruncher can twist and turn the numbers them to make the "outcome" whatever they want it to be.
As in the case of Lyme, how many lyme cases are actually recorded. In another post Tincup was mentioning how they were using what Lyme patients said against them to make us look crazy. There is no chronic lyme in all their research.
So, I don't care what the politicians are saying, I don't believe any of them. If I believed them, I might be able to support this bill, but I know the politicians aren't in this to help the average American. If they were, they would give up some of that outrageous salary they make and add it to the pie.
If they would pay taxes, give up all the gifts they receive, and forgoe their insane idea that they should receive a full salary for the rest of their life, I am sure that money could insure many of the "uninsured".
If they really believed in this healthcare reform, they would take the same services as you and I get..........
That's the cynicism at its extreme.
Not saying that government is all that great and trustful. As a matter of fact, the founding fathers of this nation had warned its citizens to watch what government is doing in order to maintain the freedom and liberty at all cost. That is why the constitution allows a process for debate, and vote for the people to have a voice in the decision.
For that exact reason, I will take the government over private insurance company at any day. Think who is the government? Those politicians, or us collectively? I think it is us, unless we give up and let them do what they want. We can't mistrust "ourselves" to prevent the progress to be made for our own good. Compared to what we have now (depending on the mercy of the insurance company to spare a few pennies to us), the reform bill looks very attractive.
My argument is not saying that this is perfect bill and everyone should jump on it without carefully examining what's in it. But to say you don't want to be part of it and research to find what the proposal is about before rejecting...well, that's your choice.
I would just rather be part of the process but I understand we all have our choice. And that's the beauty of this democracy.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Buster: It is also easy to tell which ones on here are spouting 'I wish you could hear my 'emotion' and which ones are trying to approach the problem in a just and real way. When you try to use emotion in an argument... fact, logic, and reason are thrown out the window.
I can't remember if it is Thomas Jefferson who said that one without emotion is less than a human, or something to that effect.
The human history has always contained the emotion. After all, that's the core element of our existence. What we need to be careful is how we are going to use our conscience to channel our emotion into a reality that benefits our further existence.
quote:Originally posted by Buster: I've tried but it's hard to reason with people that think Obama is the one that is going to save us.
That is very sad that some of us are willing to sacrifice our own good to defend a certain political ideology.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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All the other issues are mostly to do with money, and I agree, we need to improve the cost.
Again, it's hard to find good numbers to objectively compare the US to Europe or Canada. I do know that people in Canada end up on waiting lists, and they come to the US to get MRIs/hip-replacements etc.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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No one can dispute that US has some of the most advanced medical research projects, and in some areas, we hold the prominent position in treatment techniques.
However, when speaking of an overall quality of care of a nation, one cannot ignore the many of its citizens who can't even obtain the chance to see a doctor for the care they need. That's the thing - how does the best treatment technique help if one can't afford to use it?
Being able to treat a certain disease does not equal to the improved care one can actually receive. It only reinforces the need for a medical system reform that could create more competition so that we can put those research results into practice.
In Japan, the need for medical research is not based on how much profit the company can make through the research, as we Americans think naturally, but is to create "leverage" to keep its competitiveness in the market and its patients. Another way saying it - they compete for patients, not for cash. Now, that's a new kind of capitalism I can bring myself to support.
And the reality is that no average Japanese is a better person than an average American. It is the system...
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: However, when speaking of an overall quality of care of a nation, one cannot ignore the many of its citizens who can't even obtain the chance to see a doctor for the care they need. That's the thing - how does the best treatment technique help if one can't afford to use it?
Everybody can see a doctor, even if they can't pay. Just go to an emergency room.
As I said before, the quality of healthcare is good. What we need to do is to reduce the cost.
Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Again, I am not sure what language in the proposal that suggests your notion. The Congressional leaders and vets of this country are using the public option and I have every reason to believe it is a pretty good policy for the quality these have received so far. How can one simply makes assertion that public option will lower the quality of the health care? And the currently circulated proposals are all based on the model of what the Congress receives.
I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
And the proposal is pretty clear in addressing a lot of your concerns.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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I can't remember if it is Thomas Jefferson who said that one without emotion is less than a human, or something to that effect.
The human history has always contained the emotion. After all, that's the core element of our existence. What we need to be careful is how we are going to use our conscience to channel our emotion into a reality that benefits our further existence.
This is the quote you are referring to: Patriotism is not a short frenzied burst of emotion, but the long and steady dedication of a lifetime.
And here is another one for the emotional type: Nothing gives one person so much advantage over another as to remain always cool and unruffled under all circumstances.Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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Obama's bill will reduce the quality of healthcare, which we don't really want.
Will we continue to be able to pay cash for treatment ? Nobody knows exactly what the rules will be yet. That's something you should think about.
Again, I am not sure what language in the proposal that suggests your notion. The Congressional leaders and vets of this country are using the public option and I have every reason to believe it is a pretty good policy for the quality these have received so far. How can one simply makes assertion that public option will lower the quality of the health care? And the currently circulated proposals are all based on the model of what the Congress receives.
I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
And the proposal is pretty clear in addressing a lot of your concerns.
The healthcare plan for war veterans is absolutely horrible. I can give you phone numbers of men that actually have experienced it and instead buy their own. These men actually deserve some good healthcare because they earned it. 1 is my grandfather and another is my uncle.
Politicians can and do buy their own, they actually make good money.
Posts: 458 | From Miss | Registered: Mar 2009
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There you go, this is exactly proposed in the bill discussed. Something called "choice".
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Buster: [qb] healthcare plan for war veterans is absolutely horrible.
Not as horrible as those 47 millions who don't have any. Not suggesting it doesn't need improvement - always. But we are not speaking in terms of "comparatively".
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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quote:Originally posted by wtl: I really suggest everyone who cares about this issue take time read the actual proposal, not just follow some talking heads in the media, from both sides.
The problem is that this bill is seen as a way to bring about government-run healthcare by Obama and other democrats. They've been pretty clear on this too.
I can find some video if you'd like.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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posted
What prevents one to read the actual text of the proposal? The insistance of not wanting to read the actual text seems to be silly. Why go by the perception? We all know perception is largely based on the information source you have used. Why not go to the real source?
I really want to say this is not about dems or repubs. Some politicians might want to milk that cow, but as far as I am concerned, they are both my employees and they are just doing their job to get my pay. I am only going to care about what they produce. I couldn't really care who should take the credit or blame. It is that simple.
Posts: 822 | From midwest | Registered: Apr 2009
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