posted
Hey, These books are great - here is the list:
1. Left Behind 2. Tribulation Force 3. Nicolae 4. Soul Harvest 5. Apollyon 6. Assassins 7. The Indwelling 8. The Mark 9. Desecration 10. The Remnant 11. Armageddon 12. Glorious Appearing
I didn't read them all yet myself.
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Kara Tyson
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I am somewhat curios about this series. I dont normally read fiction, but I have seen the books.
I dont believe in the rapture (the avoidance of the Tribulation for believers), but I have wondered..do most people reading the books believe in the rapture (the type where people are disappearing--a belief that started in Scotland in the 1800's) or do most people just see it as good reading?
[This message has been edited by Kara Tyson (edited 27 August 2005).]
lymie tony z
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My wife like many other Christians may believe in Tribulations however....she knows that these books are fiction and appreciates them as such.
These are just artistic interpretations of what it may be like at the end of times...
zman
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Kara Tyson
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There has always been the belief in the Tribulation. It is a core belief of Christianity.
What is new is the belief that Christians will escape the suffering. This belief was not taught prior to 1812.
This belief states that the church (those who are the elect) are secretly taken to heaven before the tribulation. After the reign of the antichrist, they will return with Jesus to set up His kingdom.
The first to present this doctrine was Manuel de Lacunza y Dias, a Chilean Jesuit of Spanish descent, who died in 1801. He wrote under the pseudonym of Rabbi Juan Josafat Ben-Ezra, claiming to be a converted Jew. His book, The Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty was first published posthumously in Spain in 1812.
Later it was translated into English by the Scottish preacher, Edward Irving, in 1827.
It was further enhanced by the claimed visions of a fifteen-year-old Scottish girl from Glasgow, Margaret McDonald, who, in 1830, claimed to have visions that confirmed the secret-rapture belief.
There is absolutly no mention of this belief in the Greek church or even among early Christian writiers (in the East or the West).
But perhaps it makes people feel better that they will not suffer.
lymie tony z
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Kara, You're just a wealth of knowledge...
Superfluous tho it may be to some folks...I mean if you're gonna buy intelligent creationism over Darwinism...you have to buy the whole load...not like some folks who pick and choose......
I don't know...are you of the belief that God is a fairytale for adults or that that comedian(political satyrist)Bill Maher is correct in his deduction that God is a Monkey??
zman
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Kara Tyson
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What does the Rapture have to do with Darwinism??
The Rapture makes no reference to Darwinism at all (that I know of).
And Darwinism makes no reference to the Rapture belief (that I know of).
lymie tony z
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Sorry if I broke it down too far for you to comprehend....
In simpler terms, do you believe in God and the teachings of the bible...?
Or do you believe in science and the teaching of evolution?
I was'nt looking for a debate...I initially asked a simple question and got a simple answer...
then you asked one and I answered it...then I asked one and you did'nt answer it... so I made the distinction a little easier for you... Care to answer it now??
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LabRat
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I was doing good till you explained and now I'm all confused! Anyway, do you have to go one way or the other? Can they not walk hand in hand and be compatible? We use to think the universe was static, then we thought gravity was pulling everything back together for a second big bang then we find the universe is expanding and increasing in speed! Oh, if we just knew it all! http://learnt.smec.curtin.edu.au/astro/music/Galaxy_Song.html
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lymie tony z
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Hey there labrat,
I was speaking about most Christians, and they certainly feel that you have to choose... Unfortunately so do the rest of the religions...that's one of the many reasons we have so many wars...
Personally I believe in God...I believe that if as it says in the Bible that we were created by God from a handful of clay...and stardust to me is a handful of clay...and the scientists say we are all derived from stardust ...then why can't science and religion find a happy medium...I don't know that the Bible should be taken so literally. It has to be left open to interpretation...otherwise the premise of free will goes right out the window.
Are all the religions going to blow up once life is found on another planet....I hope we're not so full of ourselves that we think we would be the only project God has on the stove....
Also this stuff of resurection could mean that we have to die/give up the life that most humans live...with all it's faults...to be reborn and live like Jesus.....loving one another unconditionally cuz we're all made of the same stuff..."I in you and you in Me...and maybe even not capitalize the I and Me anymore...
Have not got it all figured out yet but I am working on it.................zman
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Kara Tyson
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Lymie Tony,
There is nothing in the Bible that says people cannot physically change over generations (height, structure, number of teeth, number of vertebrae, ect).
I dont think most Christians do feel you have to choose between science or scriptures. Do most Jews/Christians believe Noah lived 999+ years?? Some I guess...but I dont think that many take it literally.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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lymie tony z
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Kara, You mean even after all this time...when you respond to my post...you still did'nt answer my question.
What is it...do you just like to debate??
Afraid to take a stand one way or the other??
You have seen what indecision has done in NewOrleans and will hear the political rhetoric for months to come...
Come on Kara...stand for something.....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kara Tyson
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What was the question. Considering I have been off the board for some time (due to the hurricane, you know)...I sort of lost the thread.
If you mean, do I believe in G-d? Yes.
Do I believe in the scriptures? Yes. I believe they were devinly inspired.
Yes. I believe in Science.
Yes. I believe in religion.
Yes. I believe in Darwin. Who, btw, NEVER said humans come from monkeys--I have read Origin of Species...it never says that.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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lymie tony z
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Thank you...you answered my question.
Now I read Darwin also the bible....and maybe one or two other books in my day...even a course in anthropology and a few things like that in my short stay in college...
You could fill volumes of what either the bible or darwin DID'NT say... It's kind of like these end of days books... Left up to the individual to decide....
I know we did'nt evolve from monkeys...mammals yes. But if we're all made up of star stuff...we're all related...to the most minute detail... If you read up a couple entries you'll get an idea of what I believe happened... Just a theory...but one I can reconcile the scientific and divinely inspired reasons for our being here. zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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God is pure infinite LOVE! We all were from the first morning of the World. Our bodies are our "horses" some get a good "ride" some "don't".
Evolution provides a supply of "horses". God created our Souls that "ride" those "horses".
Most of you are like little kids on the first day of school, you have to take a lot on faith until you learn enough to understand. If you want to see/experience God just ask. He will show you when you are ready for the incrediable experience.. But, a word of warning, once the understanding comes to you, you cannot go back into the warm comfortable embrace of ignorance....
Our world is just an illusion (it passes with a flicker), a place where WE attend school... God doesn't judge us, we judge ourselves and choose whatever life experiences (pain, suffering, happiness) that we need to advance to the next "Grade"... Some are hard headed and need to repeat some grades over and over until they pass the final. The world is perfect. Only your understanding of it is imperfect.... The Bible is the operations manual. Follow the manual and you will get along ok... Human Love is but a moment, God's Love is eternal.. It is great to see folks starting to think...
Tj
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Softballmom
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I believe in the tribulation and the Rapture and you can read all about in the Bible. I myself do not believe that book to be fiction.
Kara, You said you believe the scripures if they were devinely inspired. Are you saying that you only believe parts of the Bible?
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Kara Tyson
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I believe in the whole Bible. I believe the whole Bible was divinly inspired. G-d did not write the sciptures with his own hand (the Muslims believe that).
The bible never says that human beings will escape the tribulation thru the rapture. It never mentions people disppearing before the tribulation and only unbelievers suffering.
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Softballmom
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The part about people disapearing no. Idon't know how his people will desend but it will happen. Matthew 24:40,41.
It doesn't say we will escape the Tribulation but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. Matthew 24: 21,22
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Kara Tyson
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The use of the word 'rapture' in regards to the Left Behind Series is that Christians will be taken up before the Tribulation and will not suffer with unbelievers.
When this happens planes will crash, autos will crash, ect. People will disappear with only their shoes and clothing left.
There is no scriptural or church historical data that suggests this was an early belief.
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Softballmom
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I can see where they can assume that by the first scripture I put up. one will be taken and two will be left, It depicted in the field and in the mill.
It wouldn't be unlikely to assume that out of all the folks on a plane that the pilots could be taken.
Maybe the Lord will let them land the plane before they go.
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Opps,,,,Sorry. I get ahead of myself sometimes..
"Small moves, Sparks, Small moves" (From the movie Contact)
Tj
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lymie tony z
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Boy this simple question thread(as it started) has taken on a life of it's own...
I guess it's always that way and that's why folks always say don't discuss politics and religion with friends...
Hey tj3 are you pro or con...not quite sure I understand where you're comming from. I do understand that once and individual is "saved" by the Holy Spirit or whatever deity one cannot go back to ignorance...however...
What if one's vision of revelation or the apocolyps or the entire idea of religion is mearly a disease that has affected the temporal lobe of the brain thus giving one the perception or halucination of a divine awakening??? I mean the posibility should at least exist in some minds. These guys were always going away to the desert,mountains or wilderness to pray and fast. Science has either tapped into how our brain works when we have near death experiences...or they have tapped into our actual souls...and relationship with GOD on a spiritual basis. We just need some kind of machine to try and differentiate mental abnormalities and divine inspiration...or Faith alone is enough until that time comes.
Kara...I think you may want to read the left behind series of books before you attempt to extrapilate a meaning for the use of rapture in that series.....
No I have not personally read the series either...however I may now that wee're on this subject ask my wife to look over this thread and perhaps she can shead some light on the books interpretation and or useage....zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kara Tyson
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You dont have to read the books. The authors have open that this is what believe. There are no hidden meanings that need interpreting. You can even join their Prophecy Club on their official left behind web site.
They have a right to believe what they want--I just dont agree.
But the view of people disappearing is not a belief just of these authors. This newer belief is well accepted in many circles.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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LTZ; It is a matter of your level of understanding.. God (poor word to use)is all that there is. This little world we live on is just an illusion (pretty realistic though) provided for our limited understanding(school). Look at the world as a classroom put here so we can gain "life" experiences. Believe what you want, do what you want. Jump off any cliff you want. But,,,, there is a price to pay for all of your thoughts and actions. These actions creates ripples to all that are around you.
The coin of the Realm is Pain, suffering, joy, and most of all Understanding.. From understanding comes perfect Love... When things(stuff WE do that mucks up our perfect world) go really bad in the world,, forces arise that take "corrective" actions"... "God' does not judge us, we judge ourselves (try to lie to yourself).
That is the best I can say at this point. Don't want to scare folks... Remember, God is pure Infinite Love. Open your hearts to Him(?) and the Love will flood in... He even provided a short cut(forgiveness).. It is called the CHRIST....
The world is perfect only our understanding is imperfect... The Tribulation? Don't sweat it.. We all get what we need to raise our understanding.... Heaven,, no, you don't sit on a cloud all day and pluck a harp... "Heaven" (Understanding is a better word) is more wonderful than your wildest dreams. "There are more things under Heaven and Earth than you have ever dreamed" Shakespeare (I think)
God Bless Tj
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lymie tony z
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Kara, at some point you have to make a decision as to whether we were created or whether se just evolved due to natural selection.
Either we are here because of God or because of a chemical and biological juxtaposition...
J3 yo what religious(possibly poor choice of words) belief are you getting your opinions from...hinduism:Scientology...I'm not rating it or putting you in a box...just want to know....??zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Kara is right, there is some controversy among Christians whether the believers will stay thru or escape the tribulation....I am ready for what God brings my way.
[ 14. September 2005, 01:06 PM: Message edited by: meg ]
lymie tony z
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meg I don't know about right or wrong here...don't think there is any...I'm not a judge...
However you cannot believe in two distinct scenarios or reasons for our existance...
Either we were created or we evolved...therefore one cannot believe entirely in the Bible AND The origin of species....taking both literally...
IMO...unless we come to some meeting point which would explain them both... That is what I was trying to propose hypothetically...Which I confess I have'nt got all worked out yet...nor do I really think I ever will... Just something to ponder.....a what if?
No one really knows how it's going to end or who will or won't be saved...just opinions and supposed divinely inspired scriptures....
How do we know this whole thing wasn't just a biblical hippie movement...everyone trippin on acid and such....
We don't... Just a suppose .......If there were no faith and hope in the world...how would one stem the tide of a world full of humans that are afraid of no reprisals...final reconning...judgement...attonement......aaakkk!!!
No rules!!!.........aaakkk!!!....caos!!!...zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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LTZ All of them... They all start from a broad base but, all come to the same single point...
(Avoid those that preach death(killing others) as a way into "Heaven" and avoid cults, freedom of choice is most important)
It is your choice.. If you have problems, stop and explore how you got yourself into them, and learn how to get yourself out.. Study your "horse"(your "ride") learn how it works and what it needs to stay healthy.. Thank your "horse" for the priviledge of the "ride". Love your "horse" and take good care of it.
If all else fails, Ask the Father... Prayer is very powerful... Be careful what you ask for because you will probably get it...
If you have questions, hold those questions in your mind and answers will come to you (books and people will come into your life that will have answers)...
Beware,,, turning the other cheek... This is for only for highly advanced souls...
"If you love, love will come to you. If you hate, hate will come to you."
(somebody important said this, I think)
Life is beautiful, wonderful, and FUN!!!
God Bless Tj
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Kara Tyson
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Lymie,
You can be created and evolve. These are not mutually exclusive things.
The Origin of Species NEVER said that humans came from monkeys. Darwin never said that..someone else did (in the famous Monkey trial).
Earlier man had more vertebrae than we have today (except for me...I have the extra), their skulls were larger, ect.
There is nothing about the fact that humans have changed over time that is against the scriptures.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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Kara Tyson
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There is only one calander in the history of mankind that has an end date...the Mayan calander.
End date: December 21, 2012
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lymie tony z
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I beg to differ with your estimation that we humans had larger skulls...in fact they were smaller...just ask any palientologist...
As far as vertebrae...I believe we still retain the same amount as in the beginning. Are you talking about an extra rib??
I am not nor have I ever said we evolved from monkeys...I don't know why you insist on remarking about that...the origin of the species does'nt say that either....
tj3 I think I understand where you're comming from...taken literally all religeon is a good basis for living our lives... Too bad the extremists use their religeons to create havoc in this world...including those who believe MONEY is God...
However I must debate whether this earth is a good and fine place.... Sure it is if we did'nt inhabit it. What exactly is the force or influence that makes humans behave so maliciously toward their own kind?? Is it satan as the scriptures tell us? Are the bad things just tests of our faith? zman
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Kara Tyson
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Extra lumar vertebra. Cro Magna man had 7 lumbar. Today we have 5. Or most people do. I actually have 7.
Humans arent the only ones on the planet who are viscious. Animals in the wild are calculating and very agressive. Even to their own kind. And I doubt it is Satan making them do so. The dino's lived before humans. Was it a utopia? I doubt it.
Bad things happen to good people. Because...they just do. It is a mystery.
I dont believe G-d has given me terrible things just to test me. I dont believe that for a minute.
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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lymie tony z
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We were created and then we evolved???
If we were created in the image and likeness of God then we were good to go. We should'nt have had to evolve to a better status. Come on now Kara. Cro-magnan man?? Does this mean you're particular branch of evolution did'nt evolve enough to rid itself of the extra vertebrae?
What about all the other species of homosapiens? How come they died out...like neandertahl... Apparently you don't live by either darwin or the bible Literally...which is ok...as long as you don't criticize those that have convictions... Those that have faith in their choices and live their lives accordingly... My problem is when these same people take their beliefs to their ultimate exclusion of other faiths or beliefs...this is where war and all the other junk happens... Why can't we just realize that this is the only planet we have (right now) for existance...why can't we all realize that we're all made up of identical chemicals and stop killing each other. The animals kill or be killed for food... We as humans don't have to do that...so I would'nt say that animals are cruel by nature. They are just doing what has to be done to survive. Yes, even when they kill their own offspring... So why do humans do the same thing?(abortion) (ethnic cleansing)...etc... Bad things don't happen...just cuz they happen...come on now, that's the best you can do??? It's clear in the bible why bad things happen to good people... zman
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I wish you luck in your quest to figure it all out~!
S�use me for jumping into your debate here.... but for me, I don't believe everything the scientists say....they are in disagreement amongst themselves on many levels. How do they know the earth is x # of years old? Not one of us can say for sure, and neither can their scientific instruments.
It's a leap of faith to believe either the scientists or the Bible....is there verifiable proof either way? I choose not to believe in the falability of man, but the omnisciencse (sp?) of God~!....I also believe that my lyme journey IS a test.
Where oh where is that biblical verse that says in the end times we humans will be oh sooo smart and know nothing!
(Kara, I have an Aztec calendar on my wall....its beautifully made and of different shades of wood fit together tightly, not in colors like shown....its huge. I love it.)
it's like Milton Bradley created Twister, God (higher being) created what is here as we know it. His creations have evolved. What are you having trouble with. You put the seed in the dirt, some thrive, some die.
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lymie tony z
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No Meg, I don't believe in everything science has come up with yet. Copernicus,gallileo,Newton,Einstien... It does make you wonder however...as complex as our universe is and as complex as even our own minds are...there seems to be an Ineligence behind all of this. Divine inteligent design...maybe... How else could all this very complex stuff come off without some design. Glad you and lymester jumped in actually... But lymester you're explanation seems a little too simplistic...ya plant um and some grow and some don't??? How's come we were so lucky to have grown... Or like the bible says we were created this way... I don't remember reading anything in the bible ablut evolution...except perhaps the evolution of moving from one kind of God in the Old testament to a differant kind in the New testament... First a God of wrath then a God of Love. Or maybe the old testament was just tough love or something?! zman
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Kara Tyson
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Lymie,
Yes. Created and evolved. There is nothing that says G-d is limited in his creations.
Evolving also doesnt mean that you are 'better'. Early man may have had better hearing than we do or better eyesight. Evolving is change.
The bible says we are created in G-d's image, but it doesnt say we are all clones.
Some people in certain families never develop wisdom teeth--does that mean they are not created in G-d's image becuase most people have wisdom teeth?? Of course not.
Some people are born without hands or without hearing. Are they not also made in G-d's image?
So far as the 'branches' of beings evolving--everything is a theory. It is a mystery.
Sometimes the best explanations are the simplest.
And yes, my extra lumbar could mean that I am a 'throw back'. It is an inherited condition in my mother's family. Perhaps my branch didnt evolve on the normal pattern. And that is ok.
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lymie tony z
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Kara,
It says in the bible that we were created...nowhere does it say we will evolve...
Evolution has'nt been taught as a Theory since I went to college back in the seventies. It's not a mystery when it's backed by scientific facts.
The bible teachings are on the other hand supernatural mysteries. No imperical or scientific facts to prove one way or the other the existance of God or a supreme being. It's something we as humans take on faith.
zman
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Kara Tyson
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Lymie, More importantly does it say we dont (or cannot) evolve or that G-d is limited in his creations?
The Earth was (according to scripture) created, but we know that it has evolved/changed over the years. Land masses moved around.
Because land masses moved around, does that discount that the world was created? Of course not. One does not exclude the other.
Theories do develop into scientific laws. But sometimes even those must be changed.
There used to be the law 'matter cannot be created nor destroyed'. This has now changed to 'matter cannot be created or destroyed except by artificial means'.
WE are limited by laws (that we understand) but G-d is not. G-d creates those laws and can move around freely defying time & space.
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lymie tony z
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Kara...I'm afraid you have that wrong....
It is not matter but Energy that can't be created or destroyed...only reshaped into something else...
If you're gonna quote science or the bible try to be a little more accurate...
Oh so because it says nothing about evolution in the bible we are to assume we were created and then evolved....sheesh...I don't know. Seems to me to be a contradiction in terms at the very least. Your way of thinking is that God is more like early man...is that it? God is more like pithicanthropis(spl) erectus? Now that we have evolved we're actually better looking than God??
I don't know about all that. zman
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Kara Tyson
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Lymie,
LAW OF CONSERVATION OF MATTER Matter cannot be created nor destroyed, it can only be changed from one form to another. **
You can create matter in a lab. It has been done many times.
But matter can be created in a lab. And the law is the law of conservation of matter.
We are created in the image of G-d. True. If you are a Christians, you believe that Jesus is part of the trinity. So...are just men made in the image of G-d?
There is no contradictions between science and belief. You can believe in creation and evolution of the human form. You can believe in creation and the evolution of the planet. You can even believe in the big bang.
I still insist..you CAN be a scientist and a full believer.
Is your belief then that a person who believes that mountains that were formed later, or islands that were formed from volcano's cannot be a Christian?? Since the Earth was created (and should be good to go).
[ 16. September 2005, 10:49 AM: Message edited by: Kara Tyson ]
-------------------- Kara Tyson Lyme Disease Support Group Of Alabama--MobileChapter Posts: 6022 | From Mobile, AL | Registered: Apr 2001
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lymie tony z
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Sorry to differ with you dear... But Energy was created thru neuclear fission.
Not matter...energy...that's starting with matter (the atoms) potential energy and thru fission changeing that potential energy into kinetic energy...a big boom.
What book are you getting your info from...I believe if you go back to it you'll find your error.
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Sorry for jumping in the middle here..here is some interesting reading from Thomas Aquinas' 'Five Ways':
First Way: The Argument From Motion St. Thomas Aquinas, studying the works of the Greek philsopher Aristotle, concluded from common observation that an object that is in motion (e.g. the planets, a rolling stone) is put in motion by some other object or force. From this, Aquinas believes that ultimately there must have been an UNMOVED MOVER (GOD) who first put things in motion. Follow the agrument this way: 1) Nothing can move itself. 2) If every object in motion had a mover, then the first object in motion needed a mover. 3) This first mover is the Unmoved Mover, called God.
Second Way: Causation Of Existence This Way deals with the issue of existence. Aquinas concluded that common sense observation tells us that no object creates itself. In other words, some previous object had to create it. Aquinas believed that ultimately there must have been an UNCAUSED FIRST CAUSE (GOD) who began the chain of existence for all things. Follow the agrument this way: 1) There exists things that are caused (created) by other things. 2) Nothing can be the cause of itself (nothing can create itself.) 3) There can not be an endless string of objects causing other objects to exist. 4) Therefore, ther must be an uncaused first cause called God.
Third Way: Contingent and Neccessary Objects This Way defines two types of objects in the universe: contingent beings and necessary beings. A contingent being is an object that can not exist without a necessary being causing its existence. Aquinas believed that the existence of contingent beings would ultimately neccesitate a being which must exist for all of the contingent beings to exist. This being, called a necessary being, is what we call God. Follow the argument this way: 1) Contingent beings are caused. 2) Not every being can be contingent. 3) There must exist a being which is necessary to cause contingent beings. 4) This necessary being is God.
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lymie tony z
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Kara, I believe the son of God to be part of the trinity...and I guess you could say that Jesus is also...but he was god made man and I think he was not part of the trinity at this time.
If what Thomas Aquinas says is true and what Kara says is true about being able to create matter... Perhaps we as humans created the universe many eons ago...lived a life for millions of years...were almost wiped or totally wiped out and then somehow re-populated the earth due to our DNA remaining somewhere in the atmosphere...
Kara, I don't think one can "believe" in both the bible and evolution. One can believe in one and accept the other...this may be just a matter of semantics....whatever.
Did God create everything from nothing? Is the big bang the begining of God's creation? Recently I got an email about God's Eye...it's a picure of a nebulla taken by Hubble...it's a blue eye...for cryin out loud...does anyone out there really believe that God was white with auburn hair and blue eyes?? The guy was decended from Jews...not too many of which are white.
Are we to keep referring backwards in time as an explanation or reason for our existence? Or are we to go forward and find the truth. Whatever that may wind up being. It has been in the past that whenever science explained things contrary to religeous teachings the authors of these explanations were prosecuted and persecuted. I'm glad we have come past that stage anyway...but how far have we come if we refuse to recognize the nose on our faces??
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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Softballmom
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I am curious and have been wanting to ask this question.
Kara, why do you take the o out of God? I am not understanding that.
I may get a little off the subject here but I tend to ramble and stray.
I believe in the Trinity. God the father (The creater of all things), God the son (the human form) and God the spirit that we continue to carry on today. He who lives within us and through us.
I don't believe that God punishes us but allows things to happen in our lives. He never gives us more than we can handle. It depends on if we look to him for strength to help us through those times wether we make it through allright. Even if we know the outcome is death.
Like Meg, I believe that my illness has it's purpose but I chose to look in the right direction when I was facing what seemed to be the imposible. What I once thought of a horrible nightmare I am finding much good that has come out of it.
We have to make the most out of what hand we are delt instead of curling up in a corner singing wo is me.
I like to think of John Walsh. Look at the tradgedy that was placed on his family but look at the good that came from that. How many childrens lives have been spared at the loss of John's son.
The list is enormous of people using there tradgedy for a greater good.
We are all weak alone, so where does that courage and strength come from. I believe it comes from God.
As far as evolution. God created all things but gave man the knowledge to take what he had created to invent and evolve.
As far as Satan. I believe in him. Not Satan made me do it but you make a choice to follow good or evil. he doesn't make you do it but we allow him work through us by the choices we make.
A man murders a whole family of good people. Did God do it. No. He had no control over the person that chose to take their lives so how could he have stopped it. He had to allow it to happen or there would be no free will.
Some may not agree but that is how I see it.
-------------------- It's not the Lyme, I just can't spell! Posts: 1331 | From North Carolina | Registered: Sep 2004
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Absolutely~!! You put my thoughts into words and I couldn't agree more..... ****************************** Seems to me, that if one believes in God.....then how can one not believe in the bible, evil spirits, the trinity, the struggle between good and evil, creation of the earth, solar system, people, etc.
Not only could one not believe in evolution and God at the same time, but a belief in God should bring the whole enchilada with it. As in, you either believe or you don't....no halfway stuff. They are counter thoughts.
Zman--you added an interesting thought to this....that all was created by God and then evolvement took place after that. Could be true, but in that thought we are adding credence to the ideas of man on how we came to be. Evolution is a theory theorized by man.
lymie tony z
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Meg,
I think Kara made reference to G-d (?) creating everything and then everything evolving.
I am still working on the process He used. Like are we to believe the Bible literally or not...I think not...however that is not to say we should not believe in what the Bible is trying to teach us thru depicting the life of Christ as an example for all humans.
Softball mom I have to re-read your stuff as I'm a little lymie right now...I think we're somewhere in the same place...and I don't get the G-d thing either.............zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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lymie tony z
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Hey ther Meg, I hate to burst your bubble but evolution has been taught as a fact since I was going to college back in the late seventies....
Whether it was divinely designed is the latest attempts of christians to adhere scientific fact to supernatural mysteries.
Kara, that drive that makes one turn lemons in life to lemonade. Is that really divinely inspired or is it innate in all humans and life for that matter? What about atheists who have gone thru junk and come out of it better?
I know I'll never achieve my goal at proving scientifically the existence of God. This is what I am trying to wrap my mind around. I mean it even says something about man not being able to comprehend God in the Bible...but look how far we've come since it was written and how far we might get. It's just theory but some physicists say they have an explanation for the big bang. It's M theory wrapped around parallel universes colliding. I mean God could have created this also having in mind it would lead to our existance. Possibly the existance of others to worship Him. When was that A-HA moment in humans. It has always been good for humans to believe there is an ultimate judge who will eventually right all the injustices and wrongs in the world. This has been a belief of man thru our existence. Without it I doubt we would have survived this long. Where did this idea come from? There have been numerous deities all over the world...but seems to be a universal theme. Why? I know it's a matter of faith. One either has it or dosen't. Man I got tired...heh heh....ta ta for now............zman
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Softballmom
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Zman,
Have you heard the studies on the arc and Moses leading the people and the parting of the red sea?
They is suposobly evidence of that. The arc stuff seemed pretty scetchy but the red sea and the travel of the people was very intreging.
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Softballmom
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quote:Originally posted by lymie tony z: What about atheists who have gone thru junk and come out of it better?
How much longer does it take them to come out better? If I was an athiest I believe I would still be locked in my bathroom crying and in fear of not seeing another day. Maybe I would have eventually come through on my own but it would have taken much longer. Also every time I hit with a spell that appears to be another stroke I would probably regress instead of praying haveing faith and moving forward.
Also who is to say that they have come out better. We can't see the stuggles that people go through in their own minds. Many who appear to fine on the outside are struggling daily ghosts of the past.
Also not all athiest stay that way. Could God be working in their lives in hopes that someday they will reconize that?
I believe that God wants all to look to him. Even those who denounce him. I can't see him not trying at all.
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lymie tony z
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The parting of the red sea is (according to some scientists) as being a natural phenom...
Is that the study you're referring to?
Yeah I saw that on ntl geographic or some other such station. Along with the search for the arc. Also the latest of the shroud of Turin...
No I don't know of any atheists either...but I'm sure there must be some somewhere that would debate your hypothesis on speeds of recovery.
Ya know a shrink would say that your placebo is your faith...and they can't figure out some "miraculous" cures either...so who knows for sure. (rhetorical question)... see ya later softball mom............zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by lymie tony z: [QB] Hey ther Meg, I hate to burst your bubble but evolution has been taught as a fact since I was going to college back in the late seventies....
Whether it was divinely designed is the latest attempts of christians to adhere scientific fact to supernatural mysteries. ****************************** Dinosaurs, Cro-Magnan man etc.....are they divinely made?--I think so. I don't believe everything the scientific community theorizes.....but the above are not counter to the bible. Guess I'm not making myself clear enough.....so I'll quit for now. Meg
posted
Human Science is just organized ignorance, don't take it too seriously...
There was no "science" to guide Edison, the Wright Brothers, Ford, Koch, and many others..
Remember,, Kids, you are only in the First Grade. You have to take a lot on faith..... The Bible is a wonderful book, but beyond your understanding at this point in time. Read it over and over and look at the world around you, then understanding will slowly dawn...
God is more wonderful than your wildest dreams...
When you walk in God's Light you will have a good life. If individuals or nations wander into the Darkness, the inhabitants of the Darkness will harm them (through pain we learn)..
Open your heart and let in the Light and all your fears and troubles will fade away.....
"You can go anywhere and anywhen by knowing that you are all ready there" J.L.S. (I like that phrase)
God Bless Tj
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Softballmom
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Z-man,
The study showed that the earth left trace of large group of people and tracked it to the portion of the red sea that appeared to have been parted. Something about the sedement and stuff showed the track. I am not a science person but it sounded convincing.
Meg, I get what you are saying.
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lymie tony z
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Hi Meg,tj and sbm...I'll attempt to remember all your responses and deal with them in order.
Meg, you are still hung up on calling evolution a theory. I won't attempt to change your mind. I really don't want to shake anyone's faith or beliefs. However please explain to me then how creationism is factually proven. It's more of a theory than actually digging up bones of ancestors. I hope science does find proof of all the stories in the bible. It still does'nt prove how we got here. It just proves a certain group of humans settled on a one God religeon and who he/she is, is still up for debate.
TJ33...man I don't know what you're smoking but I want some of it. Organized Ignorance huh? Why would God in all His wisdom give us the ability if He did'nt want us to use it. Oh I know free will....then those that could, would'nt and we would all still be living in europe...cuz the world is flat. No science was involved with Columbus...he just kept sailing west till he found land or fell off the edge. I commend you on your strong belief in God...however
Softballmom, I saw a program where they did'nt find any artifacts...this was on a christian channel I believe. Which one did you see or read about? I hope they(the "organized" idiots) do find artifacts. But like I said above it does'nt satisfy my original quest. The new M-THEORY for the big bang may yet...but then how did all those membranes that collided from different dimensions get there?...Now that's a theory...all up on the physicists blackboards...zman
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Meg, you are still hung up on calling evolution a theory. I won't attempt to change your mind. I really don't want to shake anyone's faith or beliefs. However please explain to me then how creationism is factually proven. It's more of a theory than actually digging up bones of ancestors. I hope science does find proof of all the stories in the bible. It still does'nt prove how we got here. It just proves a certain group of humans settled on a one God religeon and who he/she is, is still up for debate. *******************************************
My answer to the question is in this thread already Tony.....neither is factually proven, man's way or God's way....it is a matter of faith or who you CHOOSE to believe.
Are you saying that evolution has been proven?
[ 22. September 2005, 11:59 PM: Message edited by: meg ]
Softballmom
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Zman, I can't remember where I saw it at. I don't think it was not a christian channel because I rarely ever watch TV and don't tune into the Christian channels when I do. Probably Discovery, I watch that channel.
Also for your responce to Meg. If we could factually prove all the stories in the Bible then living on faith would no longer be pertinent.
Our faith teaches us to believe in what we can't see or touch so why would we need artifacts to prove that it is real?
Maybe nothing will never be found just for that reason.
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lymie tony z
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I guess you were not reading what I posted earlier...several times...
Evolution is being taught as fact in our schools.
I guess the powers that be have decided it's fact enough to teach.
So yeah, I would say it's been proven!
Softball, Even if all the artifacts were found we would still have to rely on faith. God has'nt been found. Except for some who have had visions of one kind or another...no one knows for sure..."we walk by faith, not by sight"...
I only wish humans had more faith in each other or at least as much as they do in their respective deities...........zman
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Softballmom
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I don't think it as much people not haveing faith in each other as it is so many tend to dwell on the negative. That makes it harder to have faith in others.
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lymie tony z
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Yeah softball, Dwelling on the negative is not something I like to do...comming from a very negative environment and having had many negative things happen in my lifetime...
This whole thread was started with a simple request and I would'nt have gone any further but then it kind of took off into a philosophical discussion and one that did'nt include lyme disease and I kind of liked that.
Hope anyone else that participated did also.
Catch you on the flipside...zman
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