treepatrol
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Symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency Ways to Get B12 Deficiency
The two main ways people get vitamin B12 deficiency are inadequate dietary intake and inadequate absorption from loss of intrinsic factor or lack of stomach acid. Other, much less common ways are listed in Appendix: Ways to Get B12 Deficiency.
Elevated Homocysteine: No Symptoms
Please note that the symptoms listed below are found in overt vitamin B12 deficiency. You can be B12 deficient, increasing your risk of disease because of elevated homocysteine without suffering any noticeable symptoms.
Early, Noticeable Symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency:1
unusual fatigue faulty digestion no appetite nausea loss of menstruation Other symptoms of Overt B12 Deficiency:
numbness and tingling of the hands and feet1 nervousness1 diarrhea2 mild depression1 striking behavioral changes1 paranoia1 hyperactive reflexes1 fever3 frequent upper respiratory infections4 impotence5 impaired memory5 infertility6 sore tongue2 enlargement of the mucous membranes of the mouth, vagina, and stomach117 macrocytic anemia low platelet count3,7 and increased bleeding3 neutropenia3 Neurological Symptoms
Neurological symptoms, often referred to as subacute combined degeneration (SCD), are the biggest concern regarding B12 deficiency. The damage can be irreversible if not caught early enough. SCD affects peripheral nerves and the spinal cord, and is normally different in children than adults.8 .
Theories of How B12 Deficiency Causes Nerve Damage
There are 3 main theories as to how B12 deficiency causes nerve damage:
1. B12 deficiency produces a lack of methionine for conversion into S-adenosylmethionine (SAM).9 SAM is required for the production of phosphatidylcholine10 which is part of the myelin (the fatty material that insulates many nerves).10 (See Figure: Methionine-Homocysteine-Folate-B12 Cycle.)
2. The inability to convert methylmalonyl-CoA (a 3-carbon molecule) to succinyl-CoA (a 4-carbon molecule) results in an accumulation of propionyl-CoA (a 3-carbon molecule). Fatty acids are normally made by adding 2 carbons at a time to an even numbered carbon molecule. In an overabundance of 3 carbon molecules, large amounts of unusual 15-carbon and 17-carbon fatty acids may be produced and incorporated into nerve sheets, causing altered nerve function.11
3. Nerves are damaged by different hormone-like molecules (cytokines, tumor necrosis factor, and epidermal growth factor) which become unbalanced in the nerve tissue in B12 deficiency.8
When is it Time to Call a doctor?
There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment.
Notes for Symptoms of B12 Deficiency 1. Crane MG, Sample C, Pathcett S, Register UD. "Vitamin B12 studies in total vegetarians (vegans). Journal of Nutritional Medicine 1994;4:419-430. 2. Lindenbaum J, Healton EB, Savage DG, Brust JC, Garrett TJ, Podell ER, Marcell PD, Stabler SP, Allen RH. Neuropsychiatric disorders caused by cobalamin deficiency in the absence of anemia or macrocytosis. N Engl J Med. 1988 Jun 30;318(26):1720-8. 3. Sarode R, Garewal G, Marwaha N, Marwaha RK, Varma S, Ghosh K, Mohanty D, Das KC. Pancytopenia in nutritional megaloblastic anaemia. A study from north-west India. Trop Geogr Med. 1989 Oct;41(4):331-6. 4. Crane MG, Register UD, Lukens RH, Gregory R. Cobalamin (CBL) studies on two total vegetarian (vegan) families. Vegetarian Nutrition. 1998; 2(3):87-92. 5. Ho C, Kauwell GP, Bailey LB. Practitioners' guide to meeting the vitamin B-12 recommended dietary allowance for people aged 51 years and older. J Am Diet Assoc .1999 Jun;99(6):725-7. 6. Kuhne T, Bubl R, Baumgartner R. Maternal vegan diet causing a serious infantile neurological disorder due to vitamin B12 deficiency. Eur J Pediatr. 1991 Jan;150(3):205-8. 7. Refsum H, Yajnik CS, Gadkari M, Schneede J, Vollset SE, Orning L, Guttormsen AB, Joglekar A, Sayyad MG, Ulvik A, Ueland PM. Hyperhomocysteinemia and elevated methylmalonic acid indicate a high prevalence of cobalamin deficiency in Asian Indians. Am J Clin Nutr. 2001 Aug;74(2):233-41. 8. Scalabrino G. Subacute combined degeneration one century later. The neurotrophic action of cobalamin (vitamin B12) revisited. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 2001 Feb;60(2):109-20. 9. Groff J, Gropper S. Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism, 3rd ed. Wadsworth: 2000. 10. Grattan-Smith PJ, Wilcken B, Procopis PG, Wise GA. The neurological syndrome of infantile cobalamin deficiency: developmental regression and involuntary movements. Mov Disord. 1997 Jan;12(1):39-46. 11. von Schenck U, Bender-Gotze C, Koletzko B. Persistence of neurological damage induced by dietary vitamin B-12 deficiency in infancy. Arch Dis Child. 1997 Aug;77(2):137-9. 12. Licht DJ, Berry GT, Brooks DG, Younkin DP. Reversible subacute combined degeneration of the spinal cord in a 14-year-old due to a strict vegan diet. Clin Pediatr. (Phila). 2001 Jul;40(7):413-5. From
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
"There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment."
Wow! They actually listed Lyme as a serious disease!! Is this article from Germany by any chance? [just looking at the names in the references]
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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treepatrol
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DRUG-SUPPLEMENT INTERACTIONS IN LYME DISEASE
Leo Galland M.D.
Lyme Times, published by the California Lyme Disease Association (CALDA)
Interactions between prescription or over the counter drugs and nutritional supplements are common and often not well known. In creating the Drug-Nutrient Workshop (www.NutritionWorkshop.com), a professional database of interactions between drugs and dietary supplements, nutrients, and food or food components, I found that over 400 drugs commonly used in the U.S. deplete specific nutrients and almost 500 drugs have their efficacy or side effects influenced by various foods. I also identified about a thousand adverse interactions between drugs and dietary supplements and several hundred beneficial interactions, in which specific dietary supplements may enhance the efficacy or decrease the side effects of specific drugs.
People with Lyme and related diseases are usually administered prolonged therapy with antibiotics, often combined with Prilosec or other proton pump inhibitors (drugs that greatly reduce stomach acid), sometimes in conjunction with Plaquenyl (an immune modulator) or anti-parasitic drugs for treatment of babesiosis. Some potential interactions (negative and positive) between these drugs and dietary supplements are described below. Information on drug/food interactions is usually available from the pharmacist and included in the patient-package insert. This should be checked for each individual drug being taken, because the dosage form (sustained-release vs. regular, for example) may influence the effect of food on drug absorption. Patients with chronic tick-borne infections may also be taking antidepressants and pain relievers, each of which may have its own interactions with nutritional supplements and nutritional status.
Drugs may interact with food or supplements through the following mechanisms:
(1) The food or supplements may interfere with drug absorption. This is especially important for tetracycline or quinolone antibiotics. {Although quinolones like Levaquin are not used for Lyme disease, they are the primary drugs for treatment of bartonellosis, a common co-infection). Both groups of antibiotics form insoluble complexes with minerals, especially calcium, magnesium or iron. This process, called chelation, inhibits absorption of both the antibiotic and the mineral. Not only are most tetracyclines (with the sole exception of doxycycline) and all quinolones better absorbed away from food (especially mineral-rich foods like meat and dairy products), they must be taken several hours apart from any nutritional supplements containing minerals. Two hours of separation may not be enough. Several herbs, including fennel, dandelion, and Sanguisorba, have a high enough mineral content that their consumption has been shown to interfere with quinolone absorption.
Penicillins may have their oral absorption impaired by fiber or by food, although this is more likely for penicillin V and ampicillin that for amoxacillin. Food causes the drug to be retained in the stomach, where the presence of acid causes the drug to decompose. Psyllium has been shown to bind oral penicillin, decreasing its absorption.
(2) The drug may increase the requirement for certain nutrients, because it causes depletion of the nutrient from the body. The normal gastrointestinal bacterial flora synthesize B vitamins, biotin and vitamin K, which are absorbed and utilized by humans. Depletion of these bacteria by prolonged antibiotic therapy may produce vitamin deficits. Bleeding caused by vitamin K deficiency has occurred as a result of intravenous therapy with cephalosporin antibiotics[1], a group that includes Rocephin and Claforan. High dose penicillin therapy causes increased excretion of potassium by the kidneys[2]. When combined with antibiotic-induced diarrhea or poor appetite, this effect may cause potassium deficiency, with fatigue and muscle weakness as primary symptoms. Proton pump inhibitors like Prilosec, used to enhance antibiotic absorption and cellular penetration, decrease formation of stomach acid, permitting overgrowth of bacteria and/or yeast in the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract. Microbial overgrowth may be associated with gastrointestinal symptoms like diarrhea and bloating[3] and may cause malabsorption of nutrients. Prolonged use of PPIs has been associated with decreased absorption of vitamin B12, zinc, and carotene and may create a need for supplementation[4].
(3) Drugs, supplements and food may interact by inhibition or stimulation of enzymes involved in drug transport or metabolism.
The cytochrome P450 (CYP) system is extensively involved in drug metabolism and may be strongly inhibited or stimulated by drugs, foods or dietary supplements. CYP enzymes are most active in the liver, intestines, lungs and kidneys. Humans have over 20 different CYP enzymes, all of which contain iron and which all use oxygen to change the structure and function of the drugs they metabolize. The most important CYP's for drug metabolism are designated CYP1A2, CYP2C9, CYP2C19, CYP2D6, CYP2E1 and CYP3A4. This classification system is not based upon biological function but upon similarity of amino acid sequences in the structure of the enzyme. CYP oxidation of drugs may produce metabolites that are less active or more active than the parent compound. The exact effect of inhibiting or stimulating any CYP enzyme will therefore depend upon the specific clinical circumstances and cannot necessarily be predicted from experiments done in a test tube.
Another important aspect of drug metabolism is transport into and out of cells. Some drugs are ejected from cells by a transport system referred to as P-glycoprotein (P-gp). In the intestine, P-gp limits the absorption of a variety of unrelated drugs, many of which are also metabolized by the intestinal form of CYP3A4. Inhibition of P-gp and/or CYP3A4 by grapefruit juice or other natural substances can increase absorption of drugs that are P-gp or CYP3A4 substrates, raising their concentration in blood. This effect is only important for drugs that are slowly absorbed in the intestine to begin with. Drugs that pass through the intestinal lining rapidly are absorbed too quickly for inhibition of CYP or P-gp enzymes in the intestine to affect drugs levels. St. John's wort is one of the few products that stimulate intestinal P-gp and CYP3A4. Taking St. John's wort can decrease the plasma concentration of those same drugs and underlies many of the adverse drug interactions reported for this herb.
Some important interaction of drugs used in treating tick-borne diseases and the CYP system are listed below:
CYP2C9 is increased by rifampin (an antibiotic sometimes used to treat Bartonella) and inhibited by fluconazole (Diflucan, an anti-fungal).
CYP2C19 is increased by rifampin and artemisin (a derivative of the herb Artemisia annua, a natural anti-malarial herb that may be used in the treatment of Babesiosis). CYP2C19 is decreased by Prilosec and ketoconazole (Nizoral, an anti-fungal).
CYP3A4 is increased by St. John's wort and rifampin and inhibited by grapefruit juice, Seville orange juice, the anti-fungal drugs ketoconazole (Nizoral) and itraconazole (Sporanox), and the macrolide antibiotics azithromycin (Zithromax), clarithromycin (Biaxin) and telithromycin (Ketek). The effect of grapefruit juice occurs only in the intestines, not in the liver, so it can--at high levels of consumption--increase absorption of some drugs without affecting their internal metabolism. Artemisinin is metabolized by intestinal CYP3A4, and its absorption appears to be enhanced by grapefruit juice[5]. The herb Echinacea, used for immune stimulation, inhibits intestinal CYP3A4 but stimulates the liver's CYP3A4, so it may increase or decrease the levels of a co-administered drug, depending upon the drug's rate of absorption and the extent to which it is metabolized by CYP3A4.
Milk thistle, an herb used to support liver function, contains a group of bioflavonoids called silymarin. Silymarin may inhibit intestinal P-gp and liver CYP3A4. Surprisingly, concomitant administration of milk thistle significantly decreased the absorption of metronidazole (a drug used to treat the spore form of Borrelia).[6] This interaction could not have been predicted from knowledge of the herb's effects on drug metabolizing enzymes. Moreover, vitamin C (500 mg/day) and vitamin E (400 units/day) decreased the effectiveness of metronidazole in treating H. pylori infection of the stomach.[7] The mechanism of this interaction is unknown but suggests that anti-oxidants should not be used with metronidazole therapy.
Quercetin, a bioflavonoid used as an anti-oxidant and for relief of allergic symptoms, competes with quinolone antibiotics for binding sites on bacteria. No interaction between quercetin and antibiotics has yet been demonstrated outside a test tube, but it would be prudent for people taking quinolone antibiotics to refrain from the use of quercetin and perhaps other bioflavonoids.
Beneficial effects of dietary supplements for people taking antibiotics have been described. The most consistent benefits have been demonstrated for probiotics (living organisms) that can counter the gastrointestinal side effects of antibiotics. The best studied are Saccharomyces boulardii (a yeast, dubbed "yeast against yeast" in France)[8], Lactobacillus rhamnosis GG[9], Lactobacillus plantarum and Lactobacillus sporogenes[10].
Proteases are enzymes that digest protein. When taken by mouth on an empty stomach some of the preparation is absorbed intact and may be active in the body. Oral proteases have been shown to relieve pain and inflammation in patients with arthritis[11], may break down circulating complexes of antigen and antibody (these have been described in so-called "post-Lyme syndrome") and may breakdown blood clots that form as a result of inflammation. Although research on proteases as adjuncts to antibiotic therapy is minimal, a study done in animals found that bromelain (a protease-containing extract of pineapple stem), increased penetration of tetracyclines into the tissues[12].
[1] Alitalo et al. Hypoprothrombinaemia and bleeding during administration of cefamandole and cefoperazone. Ann Clin res 1985; 17: 116-9. Shimada et al. Bleeding secondary to vitamin K deficiency in patients receiving parenteral cephem antibiotics. J Antimicob Chemother 1984; 14 (Suppl B): 325-330
[2] Gill et al, Hypokalemic metabolic alkalosis induced by high-dose ampicillin sodium. Am J Hosp Pharm 1977; 34: 528-31
[3] Lewis et al, Altered bowel function and duodenal bacterial overgrowth in patients treated with omeprazole. Alimentary Pharmacol Ther 1996; 10: 557-61.
[4] Bradford & Taylor, Omeprazole and vitamin B12 deficiency. Ann Pharmacother 1999; 33: 641-43. Bellou et al, Cobalamin deficiency with megaloblastic anemia in one patient under long-term omeprazole therapy. J Intern Med 1996; 240: 161-4. Marcuard et al, Omeprazole therapy causes malabsorption of cyanocobalamin. Ann Int med 1994; 120: 211-15. Tang et al, Gastric acidity influences the blood response to a beta-carotene dose in humans. Am J Clin Nutr 1996; 64: 622-26.
[5] van Agtmael et al, Grapefruit juice increases bioavailability the bioavailability of artemether. Eur J Clin Pharmacol 1999; 55: 405-410.
[6] Rajnarayana et al, Study on the influence of silymarin pretreatment on metabolism and disposition of metronidazole. Arzneimittelforschung 2004; 54: 109-13.
[7] Chuang et al, Vitamin C and E supplements to lansoprazole-amoxacillin-metronidazole triple therapy may reduce the eradication rate of metronidazole-sensitive Helicobacter pylori infection. Helicobacter 2002; 7: 310-16.
[8] Surawicz et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea by Saccharomyces boulardii: A prospective study. Gastroenterol 1989; 96: 981-88
[9] Vanderhoof et al, Lactobacillus GG in the prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea in children. J Pediatr 1999; 135: 564-48. Armuzzi et al, The effect of oral administration of Lactobacillus GG on antibiotic-associated gastrointestinal side effects during helicobacter pylori eradication therapy. Aliment Pharmacol Ther 2001; 15: 163-69.
[10] LaRosa et al, Prevention of antibiotic-associated diarrhea with Lactobacillus sporogens and fructo-oligosaccharides in children. A multicentre double-blind vs placebo study. Minerva Pediatr 2003; 55: 447-52.
[11] Leipner et al, Therapy with proteolytic enzymes in rheumatic disorders. BioDrugs. 2001;15(12):779-89.
[12] Luerti & Vignali, Influence of bromelain on penetration of antibiotics in uterus, salpinx and ovary. Drugs Exp Clin Res 1978, 4: 45-48.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: "There are some serious diseases that have similarities to B12 deficiency, including Guillian-Barre syndrome, Lyme neuropathy, heavy metal intoxication, and lupus myelopathy.12 Anyone who develops symptoms of nerve damage should see a doctor immediately for treatment."
Wow! They actually listed Lyme as a serious disease!! Is this article from Germany by any chance? [just looking at the names in the references]
Its quoted from all those sources below original post
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
map1131
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Member # 2022
posted
Thanks for the info Tree. So the 3+ yrs I did abx including IV probably caused my deficiency of B-12. Makes sense. That's why my increased dosages of late have made a great improvement in energy.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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I usually dont get to excited but iam hoping this is helping i feel so much better this afternoon its just great I know I have had good effects from Magnesium,cq10,b complex, and after time this one helped Rhodiola rosea . But ill know more Iam deffinatly going to bye some sublingual B 12 I cant imagine it being anything other than the B-12 shot in the butt my mind seems clearer and Iam not depressed today and I have had many things to be depressed over lately I feel pretty normal mentaly and I just plain feel better. Boy sure hope this is the right key to the puzzel.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
Proton pump inhibitors like Prilosec, used to enhance antibiotic absorption and cellular penetration, decrease formation of stomach acid, permitting overgrowth of bacteria and/or yeast in the stomach and upper gastrointestinal tract. Microbial overgrowth may be associated with gastrointestinal symptoms like diarrhea and bloating[3] and may cause malabsorption of nutrients. Prolonged use of PPIs has been associated with decreased absorption of vitamin B12, zinc, and carotene and may create a need for supplementation[4].
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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treepatrol
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Experience has shown that collateral conditions exist in those who have been ill a long time. Test B12 levels, and be prepared to aggressively treat with parenteral formulations of the B-vitamins: 100mg each of B1 and B6 and 1000 mcg of B12 IM at least weekly in the more ill patient. Magnesium deficiency is very often present and quite severe. Magnesium is predominantly an intracellular ion, so blood level testing is of little value. Oral preparations are acceptable for maintenance, but most need parenteral dosing: 1 gram IV or IM at least weekly until neuromuscular irritability has cleared. Because the Lyme syndrome has been associated with faulty activation of T4, measure free T3 levels by RIA and basal A.M. body temperatures. If hypothyroidism is found, treat with T3 preparations.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
No, you probably were not absorbing the B's. I have found B12 shots to really affect my mood in a positive way...for sure!
You're not dreaming!
-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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treepatrol
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Thanks everyone I simply can not get over one B-12 shot in the a$$ and its made such a difference. Sorry I just havent had this kinda change before its always takin a lot of time this is just freakin nuts!!
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: No, you probably were not absorbing the B's. I have found B12 shots to really affect my mood in a positive way...for sure!
You're not dreaming!
thanks!!!!!!!!
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
I still hurt but that shot helped its not as near as bad as it was before the b-12 shot shoulders feel about the same as yesterday which is deffinatly better same as the rest of me back pain is down a few notches too. !
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
posted
I just had my first B-12 shot last week, after getting a call from my PCP's office telling me that I had a very low level (150).
It did help some, I think, but now my fingers are again starting to tingle and my shoulders, back and legs are hurting so bad.
My PCP has me scheduled for another shot next Tuesday, telling me that he wants me to have them every 2 weeks for 8 wks, then 1x a month after that.
Being that my level was so low and my symptoms hitting so hard again, should I be getting them more often??
I have seen in some websites under treatment, where they recommend as much a 2-3x a week at first.
Wonder if I should bring this up to my doc??
Posts: 50 | From Port Crane, NY | Registered: Apr 2007
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treepatrol
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Maybe your lke me so wore down that we need more of it? Iam still trying to figure it out I know 3 days now and its gotten better but not completly Iam deffinately going try and get another shot at my next LLMD visitr now my wife wants one too. hahahShes seen the difference in me the last few days. Its danm remarkable deffinate immprovement. Iam going to night and by sublingual B-12 2500mcg and try 2 at a time and see what happens although Ill have to make sure its nowhere near when Iam taking my pills abx's try and do the sublingual b-12 6hrs before or after abx's. From what I read sofar.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Glad to hear the B-12 is doin' the trick for you. Thanks for posting the info.
That reminded me of the fact that I used to give my wife B-12 shots and it helped w/her fatigue.
Somehow we got out of the habit of doing that and so I called her from work and reminded her of this info. and we're going to resume the shots immediately.
We still have some in the med. cabinet somewhere, amongst all of the other (seems like hundreds) of meds, vit., min, etc. Can ya relate.
I pray for you all daily.
DG
Posts: 14 | From Meriden, Ks. | Registered: Oct 2007
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David95928
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DR. B's guidelines have noted the we tend to chronically depleted of B vitamins and Magnesium. This may be for a number of reasons. Having had stomach surgery may have compromized my ability to make extinsic factor. If that were the case, oral supplementation would be futile. That was my experience. I spent several months taking lots of oral B12 and B complex with no noticeable effects whatsoever. As soon as I started shots, like the next day, I slept through the night for the first time in months, the aphthous ulcers on my gums cleared compltely, the angular stomatitis in the corners of my mouth that nothng would touch began healing, people started spontaneously commenting that I looked well, plus a few other things. When I slack off, the still all come back. Currently after years of this plus antibitics, I take a shot of B complex about once a week and B12 twice a month. Dave
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by David95928: DR. B's guidelines have noted the we tend to chronically depleted of B vitamins and Magnesium. This may be for a number of reasons. Having had stomach surgery may have compromized my ability to make extinsic factor. If that were the case, oral supplementation would be futile. That was my experience. I spent several months taking lots of oral B12 and B complex with no noticeable effects whatsoever. As soon as I started shots, like the next day, I slept through the night for the first time in months, the aphthous ulcers on my gums cleared compltely, the angular stomatitis in the corners of my mouth that nothng would touch began healing, people started spontaneously commenting that I looked well, plus a few other things. When I slack off, the still all come back. Currently after years of this plus antibitics, I take a shot of B complex about once a week and B12 twice a month. Dave
Amazing I dont want to get out of bed now sleeping straight through the night and alarm hahaha I must have that problem not absorbing huh I wonder if the magnesium is having difficulty being absorbed to? I know the melatonin gets me off to sleep so thats working but before the b-12 shot i would wake up anywhere from 15 to hr before my alarm now since the shot i want to stay in bed hahaha
Intrinsic factor is a natural substance normally present in the stomach. It is essential to the digestion of vitamin B-12. Lack of intrinsic factor leads to pernicious anemia and vitamin B-12 deficiency.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
David95928
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I inject myself with Magnesium Sulfate when I start getting little spasms or twitches. It works well. I didn't try very hard with oral supplementation because, having a history of stomach surgery and surgery for an intestinal obstruction due to adhesions, I tend to be hypervigilant to any abdominal symptotms and, when they occur, immediately start wondering if this is the day I will have to have emergency abdominal surgery. Since magnisium can irritate the GI tract, a shot now and then is much easier. My take on it is the Dr. B believes that there is an absorption issue with it too. Dave
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
R U guys using hydroxy b12 or methyl b12? how many mg/ml do you use per injection? 1cc? Jenin
Posts: 455 | From Maryland | Registered: Jul 2007
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David95928
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I'm using standard $7.00 per 30ml vial cyanocobalamin and B Complex 100 manufactured by Niche Pharmaceuticals. Dave
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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map1131
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Jenin, I don't like needles. I discovered after 3 yrs of taking B-12 of course I wasn't taking enough but live and learn, I found sublinguial B-12 methyl 3000 mcg about 8 weeks ago in my local health food store.
It really really helps me. I take under the tongue late morning and it gives me some energy to get through something useful for afternoon.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Keebler
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Secondary Porphyria: what you should know before starting a CAP
In general, there are many aspects of this article that may be good information as lyme/ TBD tx mirrors that of Cpn.
B-12 excerpt:
Two other suggestive indicators of porphyria which don't require the more challenging 24 hour collection of specimens is measuring B-12 deficiency both directly and also from blood elements which are affected by B12 such as serum methyl malonate levels and homocystine levels.
However Dr. Stratton notes:
Homocystine levels are elevated with B12 and folate deficiency, but can be reduced by folate alone. On the other hand, serum methyl malonate levels are elevated in B12 deficiency and are not changed by folate.
Therefore, serum methyl malonate levels are the best indicator of B12 deficiency.
On Medical Mysteries last week a woman went to many many Dr.'s for declining health, partial blindness, muscle disorders, trouble talking etc. She was not a Lyme patient, but a Rheumatologist (sp?) discovered she had no B12........... She was put on injectable B12 and doing well.
I believe it was an 8 year journey before she found her answer. Unbelievable !!!!!!!!
Posts: 116 | From state of lyme | Registered: Oct 2006
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treepatrol
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I have to ask which b-12 shot i got ? when I go back to llmd. Just for everyones info sunday which would be counting the day i recieved the b-12 shot would have been the 6 days and sunday lastnight i ached and both shoulders hurt again I think the shot wore off now this morning not bad slightly achey and can feel shoulders trying to hurt.
I went to our CVS phatmacy they didnt have sublingual b-12 all they had was some losengers 50mcg crap. I am going to try and get to gnc to see if they have it. I want another shot badly it really helped just about everything.
Ps I hate needles too but I would get 1 shot a week if it would help.hahaha heck maybe 2 shots a week
5 a week hhaaaa
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
Vitamin B12 is a little bit different from other vitamins. If you don't have a certain substance in your digestive system, you can't absorb vitamin B12!
Your stomach produces a substance called intrinsic factor. This substance has to be in the intestinal tract in pretty large amounts for your body to be able to absorb vitamin B12. If you don't have intrinsic factor in your digestive tract, you'll eventually develop a vitamin B12 deficiency called pernicious anemia.
Liver is probably the number one source for vitamin B12 -- but any and all animal foods contain this vitamin.
In fact, people who don't eat meat or animal products (like vegetarians and vegans) are some of the folks at highest risk for pernicious anemia.
But just because you eat meat doesn't mean you're safe from a vitamin B12 deficiency; some people are just born without the intrinsic factor in their digestive systems. Just because you ingest the vitamin doesn't mean you'll be able to absorb and use it. Maybe me? or lost the ability?
So what does vitamin B12 do for you? This is a vitamin that is useful in fighting all kinds of diseases at all stages of life.
Children with asthma may benefit from vitamin B12 therapy. Studies show that daily oral supplements or weekly injections can reduce the frequency episodes of breathing difficulty.
Vitamin B12 helps your body produce melatonin -- the hormone that helps you get a good night's sleep. Expains my sleeping better
Vitamin B12 can help increase sperm counts in some men.look out honey haha
People with tinnitus (ringing in the ears) are often deficient in vitamin B12. Adding a supplement can help diminish the sensation of ringing.
In laboratory tests, vitamin B12 reduces the replication of HIV (wonder if it inhibits Bb?. AIDS patients often are low in vitamin B12. Is there a connection? Studies are underway.
Older adults with declining mental function -- even the start of Alzheimer's disease -- find that vitamin B12 can help improve mental clarity. My mind deffinatley cleared some
In older adults, vitamin B12 can help work with the brain to produce serotonin -- a neurotransmitter that helps maintain a calm feeling of well-being. Iam deffinatley calmer and happier??
Iam sooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!! Freakin excited that this made such a difference now to figure out if Iam lacking the ability to produce intrinsic factor or am I just really low??
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Tree, I tried different B-12s over the years. About 6 mths ago I tried GNC liquid B-12 under the tongue sublingual and didn't feel it is as good as the latest I've discovered.
From what I have read everyone, under the tongue helps with the absorbtion that is difficult with B-12 into the stomach.
Tree, let me know if you want some ordering info on this B-12 I found. I have heard from others about the B-12 wearing off in about 5 days and they could tell the difference.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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posted
A high level of blood serum homocysteine is a powerful risk factor for cardiovascular disease. Unfortunately attempts to decrease the risk by lowering homocysteine have not been fruitful.[5]
Studies reported in 2006 have shown that giving vitamins [folic acid, B6 and B12] to reduce homocysteine levels may not quickly offer benefit, however a significant 25% reduction in stroke was found in the HOPE-2 study [6] even in patients mostly with existing serious arterial decline although the overall death rate was not significantly changed by the intervention in the trial. Clearly, reducing homocysteine does not quickly repair existing structural damage of the artery architecture. However, the science is strong supporting the biochemistry that homocysteine degrades and inhibits the formation of the three main structural components of the artery, collagen, elastin and the proteoglycans. Homocysteine permanently degrades cysteine [disulfide bridges] and lysine amino acid residues in proteins, gradually affecting function and structure. Simply put, homocysteine is a 'corrosive' of long-living [collagen, elastin] or life-long proteins [fibrillin].
ah ha!!! fibrillin conection need lower homocysteine thats whats happening . ]My last visit LLMD Bp higher, cholesterol up,pain up isnt this might be it? NEED More B-12 B-6 B-9
These long-term effects are difficult to establish in clinical trials focusing on groups with existing artery decline. The main role of reducing homocysteine is likely in 'prevention' but with a slow but probable role in 'cure'.
Also this I had a molar break a couple of months ago and I was cutting easily>>
Bone weakness
Elevated levels of homocysteine have been linked to increased fractures in elderly persons.[9][10] Homocysteine does not appear to have any effect on bone density. Instead, it appears that homocysteine affects collagen by interfering with the cross-linking between collagen fibers and the tissues they reinforce.
Vitamin supplements could counter the effects of homocysteine on collagen. As B12 is inefficiently absorbed from food by elderly persons, they could gain a greater benefit from taking in higher doses orally or via intramuscular injection.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
quote:Originally posted by map1131: Tree, I tried different B-12s over the years. About 6 mths ago I tried GNC liquid B-12 under the tongue sublingual and didn't feel it is as good as the latest I've discovered.
From what I have read everyone, under the tongue helps with the absorbtion that is difficult with B-12 into the stomach.
Tree, let me know if you want some ordering info on this B-12 I found. I have heard from others about the B-12 wearing off in about 5 days and they could tell the difference.
Pam
pm me please.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Conclusions. The evidence derived from these limited studies suggests that 2000 �g doses of oral vitamin B12 daily and 1000 �g doses initially daily and thereafter weekly and then monthly may be as effective as intramuscular administration in obtaining short-term haematological and neurological responses in vitamin B12-deficient patients. From
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
I buy mine from Rainbow Blossom. This is fairly new item for them. I believe it was $10-12 and that is 50 lozenges.
One lozenge to dissolve under tongue 4 to 7 times weekly.
Warning for pregnant & nursing mothers.
I do plan to have my B-12 levels tested this month. My PCP lyme literate doctor noticed my fingernails and no half moons except thumbs (they are the last to go) 4 yrs ago when I first started taking B-12. Little did I know or my doc that I needed more than the 500 mcg I was taking then.
Half moons are better, but I believe 3000 mcg for the last 2 months is still not enough and I will be deficeint.
Hope this helps someone else as it seems to give me a lift.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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posted
Thanks I think Ill try GNC first
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posted
This all interests me very much. A few questions:
Do you need a script for B12 shots??
If no, where do you buy it? (and injection supplies)
What kind of a test should be ordered to see if you are deficient?
Thanks for your help!
Posts: 390 | From Oakland, CA | Registered: May 2007
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treepatrol
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posted
quote:Originally posted by Ellie K: This all interests me very much. A few questions:
Do you need a script for B12 shots??
If no, where do you buy it? (and injection supplies)
What kind of a test should be ordered to see if you are deficient?
Thanks for your help!
Dr or nurse gives the B-12 shots.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
David95928
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3521
posted
Standard B12 (Cyanocobalamin) is over the counter in Canada and sold by the online pharmacies. However, while most doctors question its effectiveness, it's my experience that they will humor me and prescribe. They carry it at most pharmacies. I get it at CostCo.
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Tree, are you wanting to use the cyanocobalamin B-12 vs. the methylcobalamin B-12? Because I noticed the GNC product is the cyanocobalamin.
Tell me your thoughts on this, please.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
map1131
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posted
Thanks, I've saved it to read when I get back from the visit to Gatlinburg, TN. A Christmas holiday visit in the Great Smokey Mountains!!!! aaahhhhh
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Jellybelly
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posted
There is a product called "B12 Dots". A tiny little sublingual very red dot. I found them to be the next best thing to the shots.
There was also a product I tried many years ago, little tubes of B12 gel you put in your nose. The nose is a very good place for absorbing stuff. I liked it too, but it often ran down your nose a bit and you could appear as if you had a bloody nose.
The B12 shots I take are so strong that they turn your pee red. Was a real shocker the first time, doc forgot to mention this. For me, in lesser doses, if it doesn't turn my pee red, then it needs to be stronger, the weaker stuff just doesn't work as well.
Posts: 1251 | From california | Registered: Apr 2005
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treepatrol
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Mine turned like tea for 3 days. That b-12 shot lasted got it on a tuesday11-27-07 and sunday12-2-07 night I was hurting again. Iam deffinatly discuss this with my LLMD next appt\.
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treepatrol
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posted
Missed work yesterday 12-11-07 shoulders really hurt. Apparently the b-12 by mouth ingestion isnt cutting it. I need another shot see llmd on 26th.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
Thanks Jellybelly
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posted
I just started on compounded Methyl B12 on Wed. I'm allergic/intolerant to corn so I needed to get this compounded.
Even though I've been supplementing with 1,000 mg of oral corn free B12 per day my tongue is sore and cracked. I have constipation issues and a long history of GI issues.
My insurance covered the cost except for a $25 copay and $6 for the needles.
My instructions are to inject one ml 1-3 times per week or as needed. After just two shots, I'm noticing huge positive changes. Maybe as needed will be "everyday".
I had been doing the Methlyation protocol with Folapro and Intrinsi Factor but was not having results like this.
Doing the shot myself was super easy. I'm already injecting heparin and HGH.
Posts: 192 | From Dwight, IL USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by Munch: I just started on compounded Methyl B12 on Wed. I'm allergic/intolerant to corn so I needed to get this compounded.
Even though I've been supplementing with 1,000 mg of oral corn free B12 per day my tongue is sore and cracked. I have constipation issues and a long history of GI issues.
My insurance covered the cost except for a $25 copay and $6 for the needles.
My instructions are to inject one ml 1-3 times per week or as needed. After just two shots, I'm noticing huge positive changes. Maybe as needed will be "everyday".
I had been doing the Methlyation protocol with Folapro and Intrinsic Factor but was not having results like this.
Doing the shot myself was super easy. I'm already injecting heparin and HGH.
Are you taking any other b12? Iam also taking 3 full eyedropper fulls its helped quite a bit and taking complex b vitamins ,magnesium,cq10
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Got another shot b-12 it didnt feel the same as the first shot? And I seem to want to sleep more this time although my shoulders pain is still down around 2or3 so thats good. Going to get 4 more sjots b-12 one a week will see how that works out?
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treepatrol
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posted
Well I gave myself my first B-12 shot right in the belly fat. I hate needles but I have to say I didnt even feel it.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
Today is the 1/14/08 last wed I gave myself my first b-12 injection this makes 3 now over a coarse of 2 months or so and I got up today after feeling everday a little better but today I feel iam at abou 80 to 90 percent better when it comes to aching and joint pain.
So what Iam saying is lymenetters dont over look the depleation of the B vitamins or magnesium or any mineral !
I cant wait until wed to give myself another.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
map1131
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 2022
posted
Tree, I had on my list of things to do, ask Tree how the B-12 shots are going?
Thanks for posting update.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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David95928
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posted
Tree, I'm glad it's helping. Injecting that stuff is a piece of cake. It's interesting how we can look forward to something we previously avoided if we find it to be effective.
-------------------- Dave Posts: 2034 | From CA | Registered: Jan 2003
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by map1131: Tree, I had on my list of things to do, ask Tree how the B-12 shots are going?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
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