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map1131
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Tree, I love it. Now I'm going to study all this info. Next week when I go for my EGD, I can guide my gastro/friend on what I want him to look for.
Any biopsy suggestions anyone for stomach/small intestine? Since my colon seems to be bacteria, virus and parasite free???? There's got to some explanation for my IBS sx.
Now if lyme & company would only be considered a auto-immune disorder by all the medical establishment?????
Hats off to Tree!!!!!!!
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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Good going! I have just started B12 shots myself, and in fact, will be giving myself one today. I got three in the LLMDs office, then learned how to do it myself on Friday, so from now on, I'm it. I'm slightly (okay more than slightly) nervous...the one on Friday was in the doctor's office with a nurse watching what I was doing.
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treepatrol
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3. Nerves are damaged by different hormone-like molecules (cytokines, tumor necrosis factor, and epidermal growth factor) which become unbalanced in the nerve tissue in B12 deficiency.8
8. Scalabrino G. Subacute combined degeneration one century later. The neurotrophic action of cobalamin (vitamin B12) revisited. J Neuropathol Exp Neurol. 2001 Feb;60(2):109-20.
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treepatrol
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Background on Homocysteine
Methionine is an essential amino acid obtained from protein in the diet. Some methionine is turned into homocysteine. The body turns much of this homocysteine back into methionine with the help of vitamin B12. If someone is B12-deficient, homocysteine levels will increase because this reaction cannot take place.
Homocysteine appears to be a nerve and vessel toxin, promoting mortality, cardiovascular disease (CVD), stroke, Alzheimer's Disease, birth defects, recurrent pregnancy loss, and eye disorders. These will each be discussed below.
B12 and Chronic Disease: Cancer
Summary: There is some evidence that a low B12 intake could play a role in the development of cancer.
To be confident of a link between a nutrient deficiency and cancer, numerous prospective studies should be conducted showing such an association.
As of May of 2002, there was only one prospective study performed with the purpose of examining the relation between B12 and cancer (discussed below), and it was not performed on people with especially low B12 levels.
Thus, there is not a lot of evidence one way or the other at this time. On the other hand, there is some evidence that low B12 intakes increase DNA damage which could then lead to cancer.
B12 and DNA Damage
It is thought that since B12 is needed for proper DNA production, a lack of B12 could have an effect on cancer through the incorporation of uracil into DNA.
This can cause chromosome breakage resulting in a cancerous cell.1 The same can be said of folate.1
Fenech2 studied folate and B12 levels and intake in respect to DNA damage in white blood cells (lymphocytes) which has been shown to be a good marker for future cancer. They found that serum B12 > 405 pg/ml and a supplemental intake of 7 �g of B12/day was optimal for reducing DNA damage. The subjects were not vegetarian.
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treepatrol
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The reasoning for the use of B12 and other B vitamins.
On the other hand, secreted substances could injure the neural cells. While B.b. do not possess any known endotoxin (100), cells of the host could secret neurotoxic products in response to the spirochetes. Schwann cells, for example, appear to produce nitric oxide (NO) in the rhesus monkey model of LNB (101) and the incubation of glial-enriched primary cultures of neonatal rat brain cells with B.b. leads to the accumulation of NO in the culture medium (78). In addition, macrophages incubated with B.b. can produce quinolonic acid, an agonist of NMDA synaptic function, which can be neurotoxic in higher concentrations (102). Furthermore, the spirochetes can induce cytokines like IL-6 or TNF-α in glial cells that are both neurotoxic and might provoke autoimmune reactions (99;103). Taken together, the neural dysfunction in LNB patients might also be due to secreted substances that are induced by spirochetes.
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treepatrol
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Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2001 Jan;71(1):60-5.
Vitamin B-12-deficiency affects immunoglobulin production and cytokine levels in mice.
Funada U, Wada M, Kawata T, Mori K, Tamai H, Isshiki T, Onoda J, Tanaka N, Tadokoro T, Maekawa A.
Faculty of Applied Bioscience, Tokyo University of Agriculture, Setagaya-ku, Tokyo 156-8502, Japan.
To clarify the role of B-12 in the immunological function, serum C3, IgM, IgG, IgE contents, splenocytes expression of CD4, CD8, and CD4 positive intracellular IFN-gamma and IL-4 were examined in B-12-deficient mice, and the effect of the administration of CH3-B-12 was also studied. Serum C3, IgM and IgG contents were lower in B-12-deficient mice than in the control mice. On the other hand, serum IgE content was significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice, and the value in CH3-B-12 administered mice, administered CH3-B-12 to B-12-deficient mice for 48 h before the end of feeding period, showed a tendency to recovery. CD4+CD8- cells and CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio in splenocytes were significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice. CD4+IFN-gamma+ cells was significantly lower in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice, and CD4+IL-4+ was significantly higher in B-12-deficient mice than in control mice. These results suggest that B-12-deficiency causes CD4+CD8-T cells shift from the T helper type 1 to the T helper type 2, which participate in the IgE production and elevates CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio. Thus, B-12 plays a role in maintaining the immune function in mice.
PMID: 11276924 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
Related Links
Changes in CD4+CD8-/CD4-CD8+ ratio and humoral immune functions in vitamin B12-deficient rats. [Int J Vitam Nutr Res. 2000] PMID:10989765
Deficiency of CD26 results in a change of cytokine and immunoglobulin secretion after stimulation by pokeweed mitogen. [Eur J Immunol. 2003] PMID:12778469
The role of interleukin-10 in the generation of CD4+ and CD8+ memory T cells (expressing a CD44+, CD62L- phenotype) and their contribution to the regulation of immunoglobulin E antibody formation. [Int Arch Allergy Immunol. 2002] PMID:11979045
Eosinophilia, IgE production, and cytokine production by lung T cells in surface CD4-deficient mutant mice infected with Toxocara canis. [Immunology. 1998] PMID:9767463
Induction of the imbalance of helper T-cell functions in mice exposed to diesel exhaust. [Sci Total Environ. 2001] PMID:11327383
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treepatrol
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Gave myself another B-12 shot 10.ml on 1-22-08 6am. Feeling good and getting stronger pain levels all pain down 1 to 2 from before a constant 8tp9to10 for months and months
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map1131
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Gosh Tree, I'm glad you are doing good on the B-12 injections. I just hate needles so bad and to think about giving to myself again, makes me cringe.
I gave myself the HGH for months and I'm still cringe just thinking about it. But if I need to try it, I will do what I got to do.
I will not quit the fight of winning this war with lyme & company.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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Pam thats the way Iam about needles too hate them but it didnt hurt and it sure helping me.
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treepatrol
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Still feeling good!!! up for others!!
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treepatrol
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B12 DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS, SIGNS AND CO-CORRELLATES high urine MMA (specific shortage of adenosylcobalamin) high serum homocystein (specific shortage of methylcoabalmin) mouth sensitive to hot and cold sore burning tongue beef-red tongue, possibly smoother than normal sore mouth, no infection or apparent reason teeth sensitive to hot and cold burning bladder (no UTI) painful urgency (no UTI) burning urethra (no UTI) burning muscle pain accumulating muscle pains following exertion sore muscles lack of muscle recovery after exercise exercise does not build muscle dyspepsia - sick stomach, nausea, regurgitation, vomiting, bloating, not emptying, etc flatulence altered bowel habits abdominal pain loss of appetite for meat, fish, eggs and/or dairy foods, the ONLY foods containing b12 - nutrient specific anorexia intermittent constipation intermittant diarrhea irritable bowel syndrome Crohns disease (direction of causality if any not established) Celiac disease (direction of causality if any not established) - gluten sensitivity Dairy sensitivity, lactose and/or proteins (direction of causality if any not established) Sores, ulcers and lesions along entire GI tract or any part reduced libido - loss of sexual desire loss of orgasmic intensity, unsatisfying orgasms inability to orgasm loss and/or change of genital sensation unable to become aroused [b]MEN erectile disfunction
WOMEN post partum depression post partum psychosis False positive pap smears menstrual symptoms paleness rapid heart rate shortness of breath heart palpitations weak pulse congestive heart failure Hypothyroid (direction of causality if any not established) psychosis, including many of the most florid psychosis seen in literature, formerly known as megoblastic madness Alzheimers (very recent research, 2007) irritable depression mania dizziness - even unable to walk delirium dementia paranoia delusions hallucinations mental slowing personality changes chronic malaise poor concentration moodiness tiredness mood swings memory loss listlessness anxiety or tension nervousness impaired connection to others mentally fuzzy, foggy mild to extremely severe fatigue continuous extremely severe fatigue easy fatiguability severe abnormal fatigue up to and including apparent paralysis leading to death weakness sleep disorders non restorative sleep alteration of touch all over body, can be unpleasant and painful alterations and loss of taste alterations and loss of smell loss of smell and taste of strawberries specifically roughening and increased raspiness of voice, can smooth in mid word with methylb12 blurring of vision - can be sudden onset and sudden return dimmed vision - usually not noticed going into it because change can be very slow, or present for life Visual impairment can be seen; ophthalmological exam may show bilateral visual loss optic atophy centrocecal scotomata diminished hearing - gradual onset or present for life, sudden return tinnitus - ringing in ears always feeling cold Brainstem or cerebellar signs or even reversible coma may occur neural tube defect not caused by folate deficiency or child with it demyelinated areas on nerves subacute combined degeneration axonial degeneration of spinal cord unsteadiness of gait ataxic gait, particularly in dark positive Romberg positive Lhermittes Positive bilateral Babinski reflex neuropathies, many types progressive bilateral neuropathies demyelination of nerves - white spots on nerves on MRIs loss of detail and sensual aspects of touch all over body paresthesias in both feet - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both legs - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both hands - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness, etc paresthesias in both arms - burning, tingling, cobwebs, wet, hairs, pain, numbness Loss of position sense is the most common abnormality (or vibration sense) Loss of vibration sense is the most common abnormality (or position sense) hands feel gloved with loss of sensitivity feet feel socked by loss of sensitivity toes turn up instead of down in reflex to sole stimulation sudden electric like shocks/pains shooting down arms, body, legs shooting down from neck movement standing with eyes closed, a slight nudge or bump causes loss of balance most patients have signs of both spinal cord and peripheral nerve involvement Motor impairment may range from only mild clumsiness to a spastic paraplegia clumsiness slowed nerve impulses The effect on reflexes is quite variable decreased reflexes difficulty swallowing brisk reflexes brisk reflexes impaired white blood cell response decreased deep tendon reflex poor resistance to infections easy bruising pronounced anemia macrocytic anemia megablastic anemia pernicious anemia decreased blood clotting low hematocrit MCV > 94 first warning, MCV > 99 alert (Mean Corpuscular Volume) elevated MCH (Mean Corpuscular Hemoglobin) elevated LDH big fat red cells (when said this way usually with happy or healthy modifying it, completely misinterpreting results of MCV) platelet disfunction, low count white cell changes, low count headaches inflamed epithelial tissues inflamed endothelial tissues mucous becomes thick, jellied and sticky dermatitis herpetiformis, chronic intensely burning itching rash frequent infected follicles Seborrheic dermatitis dandruff eczema dermatitis skin on face, hands, feet, turns brown, or yellow if anemia occurs poor hair condition thin nails painfully tight muscles, especially legs frequent muscle spasms anywhere in body Bariatric surgery Dilantin and some other medications relative (parent, grandparant, sibling, child, grandchild, ever needing B12 shots or supplements
AS INFANT OR CHILD delayed myelination failure to thrive autism delayed speech depression frequent toncilitis frequent strep frequent pneumonia frequent longlasting supposed viral illnesses that linger and linger and linger everything goes to the lungs for extended periods headaches growing pains skin problems dandruff allergies asthma
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map1131
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Great threads here, thanks treepatrol. Vitamin B-12 seems to be rather important to our ill bodies.
I hope others see how beneficial it can be. Even if you can't pay for meds thru a doctor like tree is or give yourself an injection of b-12 like tree is doing.....
sublingual B-12 is cheap, cheap compared to many other supps I take. Don't start on mega doses. Based on what I experienced I wish I would of started on 1000 mcg and worked my way up over a few months to 3000 mcg.
I took 500 mcg for over 3 yrs before I found the information that being b-12 defiecent means you need more than 500 mcg.
I've been doing the 3000 5-7 days a week for a few months. I wouldn't be without it now.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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Thanks Map or Pam
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Geneal
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posted
I took the B12 through shots the first few weeks of Lyme.
I didn't notice any increase of energy....but a decrease.
Noted that one of the side effects can be increased drowsiness.
I just got tired of my shots. Two a week.
Lucky my RN neighbor gave them to me, but they still burned like crazy.
I now take mentanx which is a Rx B12.
I tried the sublingual. Yuck and it made my tongue feel.....numb.
The only draw back is that my insurance will cover the shots, but not the pill form.
Still, it is worth 40.00 a month to not have to have any needles pointed
At my rear end.
The articles were very informative. In fact my husband has been complaining
Of his tongue being sore. He is going to get his B12 shot tomorrow.
Hugs,
Geneal
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treepatrol
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Up for this week of 2/4/08.
Iam still giving myself b12 shots and iam holding my own every 3 or 4 days depending on how i feel ie if i start getting achey then a shot and iam good again.
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treepatrol
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up date week 02/11/08 feeling pretty good still no aches. B12 injections work for me.
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treepatrol
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Update still doing great on b12 injections week 0f 2/18/2008.
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map1131
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Geneal, that is weird that b-12 sublingual made you tongue numb? Did it just tingle and feel funny under the tongue where you place it, or did the whole tongue feel odd?
I've done different brands and different strengths and liguids under the tongue and I don't recall anything unpleasant or nasty about it for 5 years.
B-12 is very hard for the body to absorb. Especially through the stomach from what I understand and have read many places. Tell me about this pill form? What's the stength and how is your body absorbing this pill form?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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Introduction A Scarlet Pimpernel for the Resolution of Inflammation? 1 proposed that vitamin B12, cobalamin (Cbl), in all its various forms, is central to the effectiveness of the immune inflammatory response, and that its deficiency, chronic, functional or 'compartmental', may largely contribute to the aetiology of systemic inflammatory response system
(SIRS)/sepsis/septic shock, as well as autoimmune disease, central nervous system (CNS) disease, cancer, in particular haematological malignancy 2, and the progression of AIDS.
The hitherto unexplained elevation of Cbl carrier proteins, the transcobalamins (TC I, II and III), their receptors, and TC unsaturated B12 binding capacity (UBBC) in trauma, infections, chronic inflammatory conditions 3-9 and some cancers 2 9-13 was seen to signal a central need for Cbl as a principal regulator of inflammation.
The initial hypothesis proposed that Cbl might exert a pivotal effect on inflammation via regulation of the redox sensitive transcription factor, NFB 14, which determines the expression of a diversity of genes encoding mediators of the pro- and anti-inflammatory phases of the immune response: cytokines, chemokines and inducible enzymes, principally, cyclooxygenase (Cox II), inducible nitric oxide synthase (iNOS) 15 and heme-oxygenase (HO-1) 16.
Regulated expression of such genes by NFB, a family of rel protein homo- and heterodimers (RelA/p65, RelB, cRel, p50, p52), ultimately determines cell survival or proliferation, tissue repair and apoptosis.
Evidence for five interrelated mechanisms by which Cbl might regulate NFB was put forward:
(1) hormone-like regulation of tumour necrosis factor- (TNF), through scavenging of excess nitric oxide (NO) by Cbl, as well as through the selective inhibition by Cbl, in tandem with gluthathione, of iNOS;
(2) Cbl-quenching of NO radicals (RNIS) and reactive oxygen species (ROS), enhanced by Cbl's glutathione (GSH) sparing/promotional effect;
(3) Cbl promotion of acetylcholine synthesis, central to the neuro-immune cholinergic anti-inflammatory pathway;
(4) Cbl's promotion of cellular energy and respiration via the tricarboxylic acid (TCA) cycle and oxidative phosphorylation;
(5) a bacteriostatic role of the TCS released by neutrophil secondary granules during phagocytosis, which also appears to modulate the inflammatory response 1.
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treepatrol
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Vitamin B-12 And Lyme Disease This comes from Sue Massy, a great fighter in the Lyme Battles.
B12 is critical in the human body and lymies especially are deficient due to poor digestion (lacking the intrinsic factor in the stomach). Here is some helpful info:
Get a plentiful amount in your food. Liver or shellfish eaten at least once a week is the the best way to ensure that you are taking in adequate amounts.
Avoid overconsumption of foods that block vitamin B12 intake or increase the body’s need for the vitamin, such as soy foods and spirulina.
Avoid antacids and drugs that lower stomach acid levels: acid-suppressing drugs such as Tagamet, Zantac and Losec can lead to serious B12 deficiency (Koop H. Aliment Pharmacol Ther 1992;6:399-406 [review]; Marcaurd SP and others. Ann Intern Med 1994;120:211-215).
Avoid diabetes drugs such as Glucophage which also interfere with B12 absorption (Archives Int Med 2002 Feb 25;162:484-85.
Consume plenty of calcium. Calcium is involved in the absorption of B12 from the lower small intestine. Best sources are raw dairy products and bone broths. (Bone broths also help heal intestinal inflammation that could cause absorption problems.) Dolomite powder can also be used as a calcium source.
Take coconut oil and consume lacto-fermented foods: these help fight against pathogens such as helicobacter pylori, which is associated with B12 deficiency. Eradication of the organism often clears up B12 deficiency. (Archives of Internal Medicine, May 8, 2000 160:1349-53)
Avoid foods fortified with folic acid. Taking folic acid without B12 can mask signs of B12 deficiency in red blood cells but will not protect against deficiencies in the nervous system.
Folic acid and B12 work together and any supplementation program should include both of these nutrients (Institute of Medicine. Food and Nutrition Board. Dietary Reference Intakes: Thiamin, riboflavin, niacin, vitamin B6, folate, vitamin B12, pantothenic acid, biotin, and choline. National Academy Press. Washington, DC 1998).
Avoid taking excess vitamin C, especially for long periods. The ability of vitamin C to destroy B12 has been observed by several researchers-although this is disputed by others.
Small amounts of natural vitamin C are a better choice than large amounts of synthetic vitamin C. (Herbert V and Das KC. Folic acid and vitamin B12. In: Shils ME, Olson JA, Shike M, eds. Modern Nutrition in Health and Disease. 8th ed. PhiladelphiaL Lea & Febiger, 1994:404.)
Dont smoke. Cigarette and cigar-smoking deplete vitamin B12 (New Eng J Med 1995 Nov 2;333(18):1176-82).
Take extra B12 before and after surgery. Nitrous oxide anesthesia during surgery can deplete B12, a fact that may explain many cases of post-operative depression (Marie RM and others. Arch Neurol 2000 Mar;57(3):380-2).
Avoid vaccinations containing thimerosol and other mercury-containing compounds. Vitamin B12 is depleted by mercury (J Molecular Psychiatry Apr 2004).
Avoid molds in the environment and your food. Mycotoxins produced by molds disrupt or interfere with the normal functions of vitamin B12 (Anyanwi EC and others. Scientific World Journal 2004 Aug;4:736-45).
Do not take oral contraceptives (the pill), which can deplete vitamin B12. (Henley S. Body Forum 1977 Jan 30;2(7):20; Sutterlin MW and others. http://isthereacure.info/?p=80
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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H Pylori can cause an individual to have a Vitamin B12 deficiency. It is also a known contributor to gastritis, ulcers, and it can prevent to stomach from being able to absorb the Vitamin B12 you consume. According to the information on the PCC Natural Markets website, an infection of Helicobacter Pylori, especially in adults will lead to a deficiency of Vitamin B12.
One study has found that 56% of those with H Pylori are also anemic due to a lack of Vitamin B12. Taking care of the H Pylori has shown that blood levels improve and Vitamin B12 are higher for 40% of those who have been infected. Some other studies indicate that H Pylori and a Vitamin B12 deficiency are definitely linked. However, eliminating H Plyori doesn't always mean the body will be able to have a higher level of Vitamin B12. Therefore it is important to have it carefully monitored.
A study regarding the effects of H Pylori on Vitamin B12 levels can be found in the archives of Internal Medicine (Vol. 160, No. 9, May 8 of 2000). This study involved 138 individuals who were diagnosed with both anemia and a Vitamin B12 deficiency. Each individual in the study completed a Gastrointestinal Endoscopy to determine how severe the atrophic gastritis was. A biopsy was conducted for Campylobacter organisms and a complete medical history was documented. The diagnosis of H Plyori resulted in a combination treatment.
The study determined that H Pylori was found in 77 of the 138 patients (56%). They H Plylori infection and the anemia both improved with the assistance of Vitamin B12 supplements in 31 (40%) of the individuals. Therefore, it is reasonable to state that H Plylori is linked to a Vitamin B12 deficiency.
The results of various studies have shown that H Pylori damages the stomach cells which prevents it from successfully absorbing the Vitamin B12. Taking care of the H Pylori will help with the level of Vitamin B12 but not in every case. It is therefore essential that you have your Vitamin B12 levels checked at routine intervals if you have ever had H Pylori.
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map1131
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Tree, I printed off the medical url you posted that was written in '88. When reading it, I started getting very aggitated with my gastro doctor.
I would think a gastro doctor should know that B-12 deficiency can cause my gastritis. I'm glad I've been through the colonoscopy, endoscopy and the bowel x-rays. I know that my colon, small intestine, large intestine shown problems but at least there is nothing too serious from the lyme & company so far.
This doctor has yet to share all my test results and the literal pages that he reports to me. He doesn't know yet, but a visit soon to his office is going to be a drilling by me and a review of my own test results.
I don't know if he tested my B-12 levels or not. But after all this research I've been reading, he better have. After all he has ordered fecal tests, blood test, biopicies, etc.
Even if there is a test level that says my B-12 is in normal range, I won't believe it. I've been doing B-12 for 5 yrs. Sublingual though?
I'm going to have this gastro doc order B-12 injections for me. I will learn to do myself from home. I'm a big baby, but I will try anything (well almost) to take care of my GI problems.
Oh yeah Tree, I won't eat my feces or a cow pile. Thanks for all your posting/info on this thread.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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Wow Pam!
I jsut wanted to put this weeks update in to. 2/25/2008 doing good otherthan rifampin causing me to wake up through the night no aching at all I have started getting a floater thing in left eye which started about a week into the rifampin Iam glad allmost done with taht stuff.
I feel good sore from all the brooming and shovaling of snow this past week hahaha.
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treepatrol
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Week 3/3/2008 b12 shots doing good shovaled snow friday saturday relaxed sunday sore and today half as sore and gave myself injection this morning feel good!! what a relief after aching for so very very long.!!
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map1131
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Tree, here's my update. Went to gastro today and he told me all the blood they took doesn't include doing B-12 levels. He said gastritis causes B-12 deficiency. Not lack of B-12 causes gastrisis.
Not a good day today. I'm feeling so defeated at this point. He did order an blood evaluation of my B-12 levels. Didn't have time to get blood drawn this morning. I had appt in 20 minutes with my therpists.
Thank God. I was at the end of my rope this morning. Next step is looking into surgery for hemorrhoids. Problem is nothing has been done to stop the cause of my hemorrhoids. All typical meds have failed at my GI issues that have caused this problem.
I'm glad you keep this thread coming up. I've got to figure something out. Hoorrraaaayyy for Tree. Shoveled snow? I can't shovel snow due to the other problem? lol
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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treepatrol
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So hang in there and still take b12 shots sometimes I wonder where Drs heads are?
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posted
Nicole is on B-12 shots 2 x weekly. It helps. Her LLMD said she could take as often as every other day.
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treepatrol
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Starting this week 3/10/2008 feel good!! Still no aching I take one shot 10.ml or 1 cc every four days.
Had a hemmroid problem better now not completly healed though.
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Ann-OH
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You can get B12 in sublingual pellets at your health food store. I take one called "No Shot" It has Folic Acid as well. It is pretty inexpensive. I get it for $15 per 90 tabs.
treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by Ann-OH: You can get B12 in sublingual pellets at your health food store. I take one called "No Shot" It has Folic Acid as well. It is pretty inexpensive. I get it for $15 per 90 tabs.
A study reported at a Canadian conference said sublingual was as effective as shots. I think I posted that here someplace.
If you want to see it, let me know.
Ann - OH
Thanks Ann Dont know if it would work on me Iam taking 10ml every for days guess Ill need to convert it to mcg's??
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treepatrol
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posted
Doing good still taking b12 injections every 4th day no more aching!!! yea Date 3/17/2008
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treepatrol
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Apparently beer flushes b12 I ache today took shot this morning 3/24/08 starting to feel better duh wont do that again.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
Iam feeling good no aching still week of 3/31/08!
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luvs2ride
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Wow! How did this thread get by me for so long?
After treating H. Pylori, my doctor has me on prescription sublingual B-12. It looks and tastes like blood but I am glad to be getting it.
Especially glad after reading this thread.
Luvs
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treepatrol
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Eyes are almost back to normal and the drops worn off almost 40hrs not the same as the eye Drs normal drops.
Anyway feeling great today took b12 shot this morning update 4/4/08
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treepatrol
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posted
I love b12 shots what a difference its making !!
wish I had my intrinsic factor back though. Date 4/8/08
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treepatrol
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4/15/2008 B2 injections feeling stronger each week!!! No aching at all!!
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THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did! B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide. Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise. Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
MENTAL ACUITY - Methylcobalamin 12.5 mg Methylcobalamin, perhaps the most important and potent of the essential cobalamins, plays a vital part in cell growth. Particularly important for your central nervous system, it helps promote healthy homocysteine levels and helps increase the brain's focus and clarity, and the spinal cord's function.
ENERGY - Dibencozide 12.5 mg Dibencozide metabolizes essential fatty acids to produce more energy. As a biologically active form of B-12, it reacts with cells to provide muscles and nerves with bursts of energy.
LIVER SUPPORT - Cyanocobalamin 7.5 mg Cyanocobalamin, the most common of the cobalamins, becomes active in your liver, creating enzymes to help the body with blood formation, cell reproduction, iron utilization, and tissue synthesis, while aiding the digestion and absorption of foods.
DETOXIFICATION - Hydroxocobalamin 2.5 mg Hydroxocobalamin, one of the three essential cobalamins that make up the vitamin B-12 complex, helps remove heavy metals from the system and supports overall detoxification. It also assists with methylation and energy production.
Dissolves under your tongue for maximum absorption.
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treepatrol
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quote:Originally posted by sparkle7: Thanks for all the info.
I get a catalog of vitamins that is geared towards people with fibromyalgia. They sell a bunch of different B-12 supplements.
Do you think any of these are good? Can't really afford shots/doctor at this time.
THE MOST POTENT SINGLE DOSE OF B-12 ON THE MARKET!
ProHealth's founder, Rich Carson, set out to develop the most potent B-12 supplement on the market - and that he did! B-12 Extreme contains the world's most potent single dose of all four forms of B-12 on the market, including the only two biologically active forms in humans - methylcobalamin and dibencozide. Low blood levels of vitamin B-12 are frequently associated with fatigue and malaise. Hydroxocobalamin and methylcobalamin have also recently gained attention from leading CFS and FM researchers and doctors.
MENTAL ACUITY - Methylcobalamin 12.5 mg Methylcobalamin, perhaps the most important and potent of the essential cobalamins, plays a vital part in cell growth. Particularly important for your central nervous system, it helps promote healthy homocysteine levels and helps increase the brain's focus and clarity, and the spinal cord's function.
ENERGY - Dibencozide 12.5 mg Dibencozide metabolizes essential fatty acids to produce more energy. As a biologically active form of B-12, it reacts with cells to provide muscles and nerves with bursts of energy.
LIVER SUPPORT - Cyanocobalamin 7.5 mg Cyanocobalamin, the most common of the cobalamins, becomes active in your liver, creating enzymes to help the body with blood formation, cell reproduction, iron utilization, and tissue synthesis, while aiding the digestion and absorption of foods.
DETOXIFICATION - Hydroxocobalamin 2.5 mg Hydroxocobalamin, one of the three essential cobalamins that make up the vitamin B-12 complex, helps remove heavy metals from the system and supports overall detoxification. It also assists with methylation and energy production.
Dissolves under your tongue for maximum absorption.
One of your posts stated that oral supplements (maybe under the tongue) are just as good as shots. I didnt say that someone posted that here but some of the literture does say sublingual is as good as injections.
All i can say is give the b12 sublingual a try and see if it helps. If not then have Dr prescribe b12 injections and give them to yourself I inject myself just between the skin and the fat on my belly at a 10 to 30 degree angle being careful not hitting a blood vessel.
The syringes cost is cheap and so is the b12 juice that you inject. I know when I tryed sublingual I took 5to10 times the dose but it didnt seem to work at there doses recomended. That got expensive. Now the sublinguals you showed me maybe more effcient?
Let me know how it turns out.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
Could a Common B-12 Deficiency Be Causing Your Symptoms?
by Dr. Dana Myatt, NMD, and Mark Ziemann, RN* ImmuneSupport.com
03-08-2008
Advertisement
Less than 20 years ago, patients complaining of fatigue were often given a "tonic shot" by their doctor. Many people claimed this worked like magic to improve their energy levels. What was this miracle tonic? A simple injection of vitamin B-12. Although the practice of administering vitamin B-12 injections has fallen out of favor, modern medical science now understands why vitamin B-12 supplementation makes people feel better, and the reasons extend far beyond just the "placebo effect" of receiving a shot.
The Far-Reaching Effects of Vitamin B-12 Deficiency
Vitamin B-12, called "cobalamin" because it contains the mineral cobalt, is required for a staggering number of physical functions and chemical reactions. Best known for its participation in the manufacture of red blood cells, B-12 is also needed for production and maintenance of the myelin sheath that surrounds nerves and for production of DNA, the genetic material of all cells. And that's just the beginning.
The serious health consequences of vitamin B-12 deficiency can adversely affect nearly every system in the body.
Energy: Even minor deficiencies of vitamin B-12 can cause anemia, fatigue, shortness of breath and weakness.
The Nervous System: Deficiencies of B-12 can cause neurological changes including numbness and tingling in the hands and feet, balance problems, depression, confusion, poor memory and Alzheimer's-like symptoms. Long-term deficiencies of B-12 can result in permanent impairment of the nervous system.
The Gastro-Intestinal System: B-12 deficiency can cause decreased appetite, constipation, diarrhea or alternating constipation/diarrhea, weight loss and abdominal pain.
The Immune System: Vitamin B-12 is necessary for normal functioning of white blood cells. Studies show that B-12 helps regulate Natural-Killer T-cells and prevents chromosome damage.
The Cardiovascular System: Vitamin B-12 participates in the conversion of homocysteine to methionine. Elevated homocysteine levels are a known independent risk factor for heart attack, stroke and thrombosis. Without adequate B-12 levels, homocysteine levels typically rise.
Special Senses: Degenerative changes in the central nervous system caused by B-12 deficiency can also affect the optic nerve, resulting in blue-yellow color blindness.
Other symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency include sore mouth or tongue.
With so many physical functions at risk, it is easy to understand why knowledgeable clinicians and researchers consider B-12 supplementation beneficial.
Are You At Risk for a Vitamin B-12 Deficiency?
Medical science once believed that few people were vitamin B-12 deficient. This false assumption may stem from the fact that vitamin B-12 is produced in the body by a normal, healthy population of bowel bacteria.
Secondly, unlike other water-soluble vitamins, B-12 is stored in the liver, kidneys and other tissues. Deficiencies of B-12 often appear so slowly and subtly as to go unnoticed, and blood tests for vitamin B-12 levels miss early deficiency states at least 50% of the time.
So, who is at risk for vitamin B-12 deficiency? Recent research shows that a much larger segment of the population is likely deficient than previously thought.
Because assimilation of vitamin B-12 from food requires adequate stomach acid and intrinsic factor, and because stomach acid typically declines with age, people over 50 were once thought to be the biggest ``at risk'' population for B-12 deficiency. Previous studies showed 3% - 39% of seniors to be vitamin B-12 deficient, but newer studies suggest that number may be as high as 72% - 78%.
Vegetarians and vegans are another population believed to be at high risk for B-12 deficiency, in part because of low animal food intake of vitamin B-12 and also because many vegetable sources such as seaweed must be consumed in large amounts in order to provide adequate vitamin B-12.
Other high-risk groups for B-12 deficiency include:
Those who use acid-blocking or neutralizing drugs (such as Prilosec, Prevacid, Nexium and others), or drugs which impair intestinal absorption (such as Metformin, Questron and Chloromycetin), People who have had gastric surgery, And people who have chronic illnesses such as ME/CFS and Fibromyaligia. Bacterial overgrowth of the small intestine, which occurs frequently in people with low stomach acid, is a predisposing factor for B-12 deficiency because the bacteria themselves use vitamin B-12.
The most recent and disturbing studies suggest that vitamin B-12 deficiency is more prevalent in young adults than previously thought. One study found that vitamin B-12 deficiency was similar in three age groups (26-49 years, 50-64 years, and 65 years and older), but that early symptoms were simply less apparent in the young.
This study also found that those who did not take a vitamin B-12 containing supplement were twice as likely to be deficient as supplement users, regardless of age.
Four Forms of B-12 - Which One is Best?
Cobalamin is a collective term for four closely related forms of B-12 - cyanocobalamin, methylcobalamin, hydroxycobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide).
Cyanocobalamin, the most common form of B-12 found in nutritional supplements, has the lowest biological activity and must be converted in the liver to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin before it can be utilized.
Because it can be converted to other forms of B-12, cyanocobalamin can be considered the ``mother form'' of B-12. However, this conversion is inefficient and some people may not benefit from cyanocobalamin due to lack of assimilation or conversion.
Methylcobalamin is considered by many researchers to be the most active form of vitamin B-12. It protects the nervous system by regulating glutamate-induced neuronal damage (common in aging) and promoting nerve cell regeneration.
Methylcobalamin is the only form of vitamin B-12 that participates in regulating circadian rhythms (sleep/wake cycles). It has been shown to improve sleep quality and refreshment from sleep, as well as increasing feelings of well-being, concentration and alertness.
Adenosylcobalamin (dibencozide), the second highly active form of vitamin B-12, is essential for energy metabolism. It is required for normal myelin sheath formation and nucleoprotein synthesis. Deficiencies are associated with nerve and spinal cord degeneration.
Hydroxocobalamin is a unique form of B-12 that participates in detoxification, especially cyanide detoxification. Cyanide levels are often elevated in smokers, people who eat cyanide-containing food (like cassava) and those with certain metabolic defects.
Excess cyanide in the tissues blocks conversion of cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin or adenosylcobalamin. In such instances, hydroxocobalamin may be the vitamin B-12 of choice. Hydroxycobalamin is FDA-approved as a treatment for cyanide poisoning.
Oral Vs. Injectable: Which Delivery System is Preferred?
Although many people including some physicians still believe that injectable vitamin B-12 is the preferred route of administration, it is well-known and widely accepted that oral vitamin B-12 is equally as effective as injection in treating pernicious anemia and other B-12 deficient states.
Conclusions and Recommendations
Vitamin B-12 deficiency is far more widespread than previously thought, with up to 30% of young people affected and possibly as many as 78% of the over 50 population suffering from deficiency.
Those at special risk include:
Seniors, Vegetarians and vegans, People taking acid-neutralizing drugs or various other drugs, and Patients with cognitive impairment and/or chronic illnesses. The U.S. Institute of Medicine recommends that adults over 50 obtain their vitamin B-12 from supplements.
Because symptoms of vitamin B-12 deficiency often manifest months or years before B-12 blood tests become abnormal, early deficiencies are often missed.
Symptoms and side effects of B-12 deficiency are many and varied, can mimic other diseases such as Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, and can produce irreversible changes of the nervous system if not corrected early.
Oral vitamin B-12 supplementation is extremely safe, as effective as injections, comparatively inexpensive, and more convenient than injections.
Those at risk of vitamin B-12 deficiency or with symptoms suggestive of B-12 deficiency should consider adding this important nutrient to their supplement protocol.
[Note: See also "The Vitamin B-12 - ME/CFS/FM Connection" by Myatt and Ziemann. It explains how two biochemical abnormalities heavily involved in the ``unexplained illnesses'' (ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia, Multiple Sensitivities, Gulf War Syndrome, PTSD) are both related to forms of vitamin B-12 deficiency. The article explains the role of B-12 in: 1) Dr. Martin Pall's model of a dysregulated Nitric Oxide/Peroxynitrite (``No, Oh No!'') cycle, and 2) dysregulation of the Methylation Cycle.]
____ * Dr. Dana Myatt, NMD, is a practicing naturopathic family physician, educator, author, and speaker with a special interest in nutrition. She lectures widely to medical and lay audiences, and hosts a website (http://www.drmyattswellnessclub.com). Mark Ziemann, RN, Dr. Myatt's husband and collaborator, is also an educator, author, and speaker specializing in holistic nursing practice and patient education.
A footnoted version of this article, including 78 reference citations, will be available soon on Immunesupport.com/
___ Note: This information has not been evaluated by the FDA. It is generic and is not meant to prevent, diagnose, treat, or cure any condition, illness, or disease. It is very important that you make no change in your healthcare plan or health support regimen without researching and discussing it in collaboration with your professional healthcare team.
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treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
sparkle7 Thanks for adding good info!!
I wish I could make everyone see how very important b12 is to the body seeing for me was the very first injection then the studying came.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
Up for believe3 good luck!!
Iam doing way way way better!!
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
By the way I have stopped all abx's a couple of months now today is 4/24/08. This is after I did a 16 month straight abx stint. The way I figure every cell in body is suppose to be replaced in that period 16 months. After starting b12 shots i have no aching only by the 4th day do i start to ache thats why I get b12 shot on fourth.
Some people it may take more or less b12.
Some b12 may not be the problem but if you have been on abx's a long time I woulkd bet big money your Intrinsic Factor is bad or severly reduced then I promise b12 shots will help!!!
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
Whoops made mistake over past weekend since I havent had any beer for quite sometime . I had some over weekend and ate a big juicy medium rare stake before bedtime . Then woke up with Gout in right knee its right up there with lyme joint pain whewwee!
I bought some blackcherry extract concentrate and took it every 3 or 4 hrs starting saturday through today monday 5/7/08 and knee is feeling quite alot better.
Anyway this extract sure helped. Now I have been having for the last year or so trouble with higher uric acid problems which brings on gout and people on abx's might use this black cherry extract its about $15.00 at GNC.
Pain is almost all gone at 11am today. This may help you guys?
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
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posted
From what I gather if your taking cyanocobalamin instead of methylcobalamin then SAMe is needed because in the process of converting in the body cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin it depletes same.
Appendix: SAMe Figure 3 shows that S-adenosylmethionine (SAM, aka SAMe) is in the homocysteine-methionine pathway. SAM has been used in the treatment of liver disease, neurological disorders, rheumatoid arthritis,1 and fibromyalgia.2,3 Houston et al.4 noted that SAM is depleted in B12 deficiency. Loehrer et al.1 reported that SAM levels are low in a significant proportion of coronary artery disease patients. Kelly suggests that SAM is involved in converting cyanocobalamin to methylcobalamin.
Loehrer et al.1 showed that 400 mg of SAM (in the form of S-adenosylcobalamin bis(sulfate)-p-toluenesulfonate) taken orally after an overnight fast (with the fast continuing for 6 more hours), caused serum SAM levels to increase substantially, indicating that SAM is absorbed when taken orally. It was well tolerated by all 14 volunteers.
Not enough research has been done to determine whether vegans who have depleted their stores of B12 can benefit from supplementing with SAM in addition to B12. Looking at the biochemical pathways, it would appear that if homocysteine levels are high (which would be expected in B12 deficiency) and folate is adequate, supplementing with B12 would be enough to replenish SAM stores. However, if supplementing with B12 does not resolve symptoms, someone might consider discussing SAM supplementation with their physician.
Notes for SAMe 1. Loehrer FM, Schwab R, Angst CP, Haefeli WE, Fowler B. Influence of oral S-adenosylmethionine on plasma 5-methyltetrahydrofolate, S-adenosylhomocysteine, homocysteine and methionine in healthy humans. J Pharmacol Exp Ther. 1997 Aug;282(2):845-50. 2. Jacobsen S, Danneskiold-Samsoe B, Andersen RB. Oral S-adenosylmethionine in primary fibromyalgia. Double-blind clinical evaluation. Scand J Rheumatol. 1991;20(4):294-302. 3. Leventhal LJ. Management of fibromyalgia. Ann Intern Med. 1999 Dec 7;131(11):850-8. 4. Houston DK, Johnson MA, Nozza RJ, Gunter EW, Shea KJ, Cutler GM, Edmonds JT. Age-related hearing loss, vitamin B-12, and folate in elderly women. Am J Clin Nutr. 1999 Mar;69(3):564-71. 5. Kelly G. The co-enzyme forms of vitamin B12: Toward an understanding of their therapeutic potential. Alt Med Rev. 1997;2(5):459-471.
-------------------- Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. Remember Iam not a Doctor Just someone struggling like you with Tick Borne Diseases.
treepatrol
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 4117
posted
I feel good not gret yet but good!!! Date: 5/14/2008 I love my b12 shots.
Its to bad everybody thats been on abxs for any length of time do not take this seriously. What a shame. Ill see some of you at the finish line.
Ps I want to thank God and Jesus personaly and Publicly here and now!
Thank you lord and father and holy spirit for helping me see what was missing. And help me to continue to see and know that wisdom and knowledge come from you. And Love for all these people here on lymenet suffering will gain these gifts.
And thank you for the people that here and see.
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