sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Very nice article, Scott.
I'm really doing well on the herbs so far.
My LLMD also has adjusted my thyroid meds, so in conjunction with the adrenal support of the Cowden protocol and the additional adrenal support I am taking (I believe it's Xymogen Adrenal Essense), I am feeling SO much better!
I had more energy this weekend than any other member of my family, LOL. And that was after spending two days cleaning and organizing hubby's new office building!
I am still on one abx and one babs med. I'll be switching over to the new babs herb next month.
I'm really liking this as a follow-up to abx ... I was not better by ILADS standards, but Dr. H feels that this is the way to get the rest of it out. He also has me doing lots more detox as mentioned in the article.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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savebabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9847
posted
Does anybody know how long the new babs herbs treatment will take?
Do you continue taking this new supplement along with other herbs?
posted
Why on earth would Dr. Cowden (and other LLMD's) advise patients to include samento as part of our treatment regimine if Samento causes renal failure?????????
-------------------- Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT, Symptomatic:1999 Hospitalization: 2004 Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since. Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly. Posts: 140 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
OK, I am not a newbie to Lyme, just not an avid poster, sorry.
I have done the Cowden for 7 months now. Just stopped a couple of days ago and supposed to go back to antibiotics. We'll be treating for Babs/bart with Mepron, zith, septra and art.
The art will be 5 days on and 3 off.
I have no clue what these herbs are targeting, only can say that I sometimes felt better on Quina, and sometimes Cumanda during rotation.
Maybe because Babs may have been cycling itself at certain points, I believe the Quina may have helped. I was also on malarone for the past 4 months which helped.
I have always done the full 30 drops of Quina and Cumanda. Samento had to drop back to 10 after 2 months.
LLMD told me to try Banderol for 30 days, then 30 days Quina. It's not something he has done before or often I understand.
Banderol got me so sick and it did not abate at all when I switched to Quina. Matter of fact, I have regressed so badly with what i think are Bart symptoms. I didn't tolerate banderol longer than 18 days.
I felt like I was poisoned on Banderol. The Burbur or the parsley did not help me during this time significantly enough, and for a few days I took Burbur practically every hour with some help.
Saw LLMD on Friday the 18th and he thinks I slipped, hence antibiotics and also feels chronic Babs. (I did wake up with sweats very bad one night, loooow blood pressure, my whole body felt inflamed, have chills quite a bit (can't get warm)
Forgot to show him what I think is a Bart papule which came out during Banderol. (my lyme brain)
Today after a shower and having worn lose clothing for 3 days since I have been homebound, I noticed what looked like a stretch mark rash.
I am going to be calling LLMD regarding this tomorrow, but also will be contacting Cowden via fax to ask if he has seen Banderol draw out Bart symptoms. None of the other herbs did this to me. The tightening in ribs got sooo bad, I thought someone had a belt wrapped around me. Have had thi symptom before, but it was pronounced with Banderol.
Wearing a bra was next to impossible and believe me I need one, so I tucked them in my pants. (kidding)
As far as chronic Babs, apparently he is coming to NY in March to meet with a subset of patients. I've been added to the list, but not sure if chronic Babs is really my main issue right now.
I had been treated for Bart 2 years ago. Had 3 Babs test and 3 Bart- all NEG. But my symtoms of anxiety, bone pain, suicidal, nodes enlarged suggested treating Bart. I NEVER had any of this prior to treatment and even in the 17 years of treating Lyme.
I did test POS for Babs 7 yrs ago.
I tell you this because this because of my past history and extended time on Cowden that I feel I can speak of my experience and my hypotheses what is occuring with these herbs.
I am not convinced my sweats episode was babs. I believe Bart can do this as well which obviously can complicate diagnosis.
Buhner's Book on Bart mentions this very same thing, page 198 " In all cases they (Bart) move into endothelial tissue. However, once adapted to a new species, they periodically move from that location into red blood cells. This creates a periodically recurring malarial like (or babesiosis like) disease"
I am very interested to hear what Cowden has to say and I will post my responses when/if I receive them.
But my suspician is Banderol will draw out the Bart. Could be I brought down the Babs and Bart reared it's ugly head? Not sure. I could be wrong.
But I don't think it kills Bart IMHO. I think it upset it enough to move around.
You can call me nuts if you like. You wouldn't be the first..... LOL
Sorry for the long post, but I thought it important to explain history to justify my rationale.
If you take anything away from this it should be to go slow on Banderol. I assumed because I could tolerate the full dose of Quina and Cumanda that I would do the same on Banderol.
That was a mistake for me.
[ 22. January 2008, 02:09 AM: Message edited by: Chia Pet ]
Posts: 85 | From here | Registered: Jul 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
Into your pants ...
I'm using Cowden after knocking down the Lyme and being symptom-free of coinfections. I hope it works better for you after getting these coinfections!
Most of my sweats went away with babs treatment .... but I still had a version of the sweats until bart was treated. They weren't quite as drenching as the babs sweats, but they were still pretty drenching.
It does sound like bart is a problem for you. I hope the abx treatment goes well and quickly.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
I beginning to see the that the symptoms of babs and bartonella are similar. My LLMD believes I may have bartonella (night stickyness but not drenching sweats, and slight soreness & pain underneath my feet). Over the past 6 years I've had all (-) Igenx tests. Thoughts??
-------------------- Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT, Symptomatic:1999 Hospitalization: 2004 Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since. Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly. Posts: 140 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SForsgren: He still does energetic testing with the Asyra or other tools as mentioned in the article to determine what the patient may need for his own patients, but for the NutraMedix protocol, Zeolite now replaces Algas and Serrapeptase replaces Carnivora. Make sure you read and understand the difference between Zeolite and Zeolite HP. For most people, Zeolite is the one to start with first and then later progress to the HP. Also mentioned in the article. Be well
Does he explain the reason for the change from Carnivora to Serrapeptase? You mean I took that meat eating plant for naught? LOL The carnivora was used briefly in the beginning of the protocol. Is the Serrapetase being used through the entire protocol now?
Posts: 85 | From here | Registered: Jul 2007
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CherylSue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13077
posted
bumping
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
I believe it is represented in the current protocol from NutraMedix. I would take a look at the protocol on their site which should already contain the changes from Carnivora to Serrapeptase. If not, please let me know and I can help facilitate a response. Take care
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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CherylSue
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 13077
posted
See the following link of Dr. H's study of the Cowden protocol with his patients. He also present this at the ILADS Lyme conference, I think
In a nutshell, the protocol is not effective for babs. However, combined with abx it may be effective for Lyme, especially for those with GI problems and cannot tolerate high doses of ABX. It can be used in conjunction with ABX with a reduced dosage of abx along with the herbs.
The Cowden is moderately effective in 70% of his patients.
Posts: 1954 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2007
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
up
Lyme Doc suggested I do the Cowden Protocol.
Don't have the funds to purchase the whole thing, but wondering about a limited protocol.
Am on amoxy and a sulfur drug right now.
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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lymie tony z
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5130
posted
I believe the cowden protocol is no more effective against lyme/co infections then any other adjunctive herbal remedies.
These things I believe are used to get people to go out an buy certain products hawked by the
sales people when they put a DR. or MD. in the forfront of their advertising in an attempt to
gain some kind of respectability for their products. Nothing more.
Cowden can't claim he cures anything with his protocol and neither can any of the other
natural protocol, "Nutramedix" preferred or sold by SForsgren included.
Any individual who is not seriously ill may gain some health benefits by taking supplements
as opposed to leading an unhealthy lifestyle.
I quote, SForsgren who quotes Dr Cowden, who states in a sentence written by SForsgren in the NUTRAMEDIX newletter,
"A key component of Dr Cowden's approach is the belief that if a patient does not deal with the numerous toxins stored within the body,
it will not only take longer to get rid of the disease, but the patient will generally not
remain symptom free and is more likely to relapse at a later time.
Toxins create an environment that supports the growth of microorganisms" Now this may say disease and
microorganisms but not specifically lyme or co/infections are ementioned.
I would tend to agree that the release of toxins from the body are essential in helping
people with any disease that causes these toxins feel better.
We all know that killing spirochetes do cause a neurotoxin to be released into our bodies.
Cleaning them out would be a necessary approach which just has to help us feel better.
Whatever protocol you may employ would be equally effective at ridding the body of unwanted toxins.
IMHO that's all.
zman
-------------------- I am not a doctor...opinions expressed are from personal experiences only and should never be viewed as coming from a healthcare provider. zman Posts: 2527 | From safety harbor florida(origin Cleve., Ohio | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
My LLMD just yesterday took me off the entire full cowden because I have been getting worse (not a herx). So far I am not impressed with the protocol!
-------------------- Bullsye rash: 1994, tx w/ ABT, Symptomatic:1999 Hospitalization: 2004 Equivocol results (specialy lab) resulting in chronic use of ABT, herbs, etc ever since. Severity of symptoms continue to worsen intermittingly. Posts: 140 | From maryland | Registered: Oct 2006
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posted
I'm all for herbal antibiotics and I think they are very effective.
Some of Nutramedix products are based on well known botanicals that have been used as antimicrobials for a long time. For example their product "Quina" is extracted from Cinchona Bark, which is basically the natural form of quinolone drugs (levaquin, cipro, etc).
Also, their Samento is an extract of Uncaria Tomentosa, another well documented and researched herb for microbes, AIDS and even some cancers.
However, they market other things like "Cumanda" and "Banderol".
Cumanda is extracted from Campsiandra angustifolia bark. There is no published research on the antimicrobial actions of this herb. And Banderol is extracted from the bark of the Otoba tree, again no published research that I could find anywhere.
I'd say that only a couple of herbs in the C protocol are proven microbe fighters, and you might rather use the raw form if you are so inclined - it would be a whole lot cheaper and you know exactly what you are taking.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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sixgoofykids
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11141
posted
I am loving the Cowden and feeling the best ever.
Absolutely essential = cumanda, samento, quina (alternates every two weeks with cumanda)
Here are what the rest is for so you can decide, Kam, what you need most.
detox = burbur, pinella, parsley
adrenal support = adrenals
Serra peptase is for breaking down fibrin, so I think it's important.
Magnesium (to help encourage 2-3 bm's per day for detox)
Trace minerals
Zeolite for chelating/binding heavy metals
Armantilla = valerian root .... maybe you can get it cheaper elsewhere.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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CD57
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Member # 11749
posted
Maybe it's on a case by case basis. We are not all the same, none of our stories are the same, etc etc.
My LLMD does not like Cowden and uses Buhner. Much cheaper, btw.
Posts: 3528 | From US | Registered: Apr 2007
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 3410
posted
bringing this back up to the top so I can read it when I get a chance
Posts: 15927 | From Became too sick to work or do household chores in 2001. | Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:Does he explain the reason for the change from Carnivora to Serrapeptase? You mean I took that meat eating plant for naught? LOL The carnivora was used briefly in the beginning of the protocol. Is the Serrapetase being used through the entire protocol now?
Anyone know the answer to this? Is it because Nutramedix is not able to manufacture Carnivora themselves for patent reasons or is Serrapeptase more effective?
Posts: 101 | From Living in the Now | Registered: Mar 2009
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Lymeorsomething
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Member # 16359
posted
quote:Originally posted by Flyinpiker: Anyone know the answer to this? Is it because Nutramedix is not able to manufacture Carnivora themselves for patent reasons or is Serrapeptase more effective?
I don't think it matters too much. Serrapeptase just aids in dismantling biofilm and keeping blood thinner. The real guns of the protocol are the antimicrobials, especially Samento and Banderol.
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