lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
o2babe -- my doctor is certain i have lyme. the amazon c-f herbs did work, not nearly as effectively as the mms again based on energetic testing. and yes there are complications with candida, strep (more specifically in my case streptocaucus aureus), he found mycoplasma, giarda, herpes symplex, and campylobacter. Not to mention, I was completely mercury / lead toxic in my years of having 50 amalgams in and out of my mouth. I now have "0".
o2babe if you want to trust blood tests over energetic testing. it is your choice, and i can understand why you wouldn't trust energetic testing -- it is really about the practioner and the practioners skill.
Speaking of skills, based on symptoms not blood work. How many folks have lyme or a coinfections based on symptoms and the skills of an llmd of which my doctor is an llmd and not blood work?
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I did not mean to insult you in any way. It doesn't mean you weren't feeling very sick. It just means that because someone muscle tested you and concluded you have lyme, I don't necessarily believe it. I can't afford to believe it, actually.
Igenex tests are very reliable and usually don't miss these things.
It is hard to know what to say about subjective reports of energetic testing. For instance, we haven't heard from Clancy again, but though Dr. W "energetically tested" her husband to be free from lyme, he still had all his symptoms. Clearly he still had lyme.
Without a bullseye rash, history of known tickbites in endemic areas, or an Igenex test for lyme and babesia, I can't feel confident a person had/has lyme just because they were sick. Viruses can cause bad symptoms, so can chronic strep and staph for instance. This is not to minimize that you were suffering, nor to minimize that you are feeling well now, it is just to say that because a doctor claimed via muscle testing you had lyme and that now you don't, I can't trust that.
That is my honest assessment not meant to be an insult. I would hope you would understand why!
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Sounds a lot like comments from someone that has not experienced ART themselves....
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
o2babe -- you didn't insult me at all. I perfectly understand why you might find someone who hadn't tested with igenex in your mind isn't conclusive for lyme. But I believe none of the blood tests are conclusive for lyme if negative including igenex, in my opinion. Granted igenex is the way to go for a blood test to prove lyme, if you want to go that route.
I think Scott is absolutely correct. You have to experience ART over time with a good practioner to understand its value.
If your opinion is ART as an energetic testing has no value. It is your opinion. 8 or 9 months ago, It was getting to the point I could barely walk, was considering disability. Had crawling sensation in my legs and arms. Constant flu like symptoms. I had many other neurological symptoms as well. It didn't seem to be just mercury or viruses or strep to cause severe symptoms of this kind.
The practioner stated I had lyme, it isn't what I think that is important. If you can see some of transformations I've made in 9 months. You might just give him the credit he deserves and respect his assessment. I know this is contrary to what you believe, and you know, that's ok. I'm just stating what I've experienced believe it or not. It's not my issue.
If you would like to talk to me directly feel free to PM me, I'll send you my info. I really do appreciate your posts and find them very respectful.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
jamescase20
Unregistered
posted
Yes, I can understand why someone would question lyme without a conv test like the WB.
Thats why I had one done (WB) even though I knew I had lyme via the live blood.
But I did the blot, and sure enough, it was pos.
IP: Logged |
posted
I dont understand... I feel like people contradict themselves a lot...
Everyone says Lyme is a CLINICAL dx and Labs mean nothing,... and than all of a sudden you all say NO You NEED to get the WB to PROVE lyme..
SO what is it... IS it a CLINICALl DX or a LAB DX
So pretty much what you are saying is that if a person has a negative WB, they DO not have lyme disease...
I think that goes against a lot of what ILADS says.
So if a LLMD clinically dx'd Bob with Lyme, he doesnt have it because he didnt get a WB?? Thats like him getting a negative WB and being told he doesnt have lyme.
I really think you need to read what you wrote.. You also said. If you have never had a bullseye.... Ummm HOW many people NEVER get a bulls eye.. You are really contradicting everything that LLMD's say and ILADS says...
This is why it is so confusing... So I guess my thoughts about not having lyme are exactly correct... I didnt have a Bulls Eye, I dont remember a tick, and I only had a positive IgG and not CDC positive...
Well there you have it! Lyme is a LAB diagnosed illness
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
Shandy -- I agree it is confusing, it is really a very confusing disease. I just remember Dr. Alan MacDonald got 10 alzheimer brain tissue samples and 70% of them had lyme. I bet none of them thought they had lyme. My point, if you have symptoms and they prolong more then a year, good indication you have lyme, why worry about tests, fight the disease as if you have it. Because when you fight lyme, you fight everything else anyways. IMO, I believe James and I certainly don't respect the opinions of LNE.
Jeanne -- ART is an advanced form of muscle testing, you have a substance like mercury in a vial and the practioner tests your muscle reaction. It is dependent on how good the practioner is, who maybe doing this for 1000s of patients over time. It becomes a technique. EDS is different, it is a biofeedback device, it sends a signal through your body and extrapolates based on the signal returned what is going on in the body. It is very similar to an EKG only far more advanced. Again this device is interpretive and is highly dependent on the skills of the practioner.
All energetic testing is based on the skills of the practioner. It is matter of reading a complicated document, some will get the points in it, some won't. Reminds you of a primary care physician, some are good some are not so good.
I got lucky and had two good practioners.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
The problem with testing is the conventional testing. For instance, there is a young woman at my holistic doc's who is sooooooooo sick. She walks with a cane. She's in constant pain. She looks glazed over. She has a husband, 3 kids.
She has two positive bands on a western blot.
Her insurance says that is not a positive as it needs to be 5 bands. That's because of the idiot CDC.
Moreover, she lives in front of a sod farm and when they pull up the sod tons of ticks come out. She has pulled ticks off her dog. Her little girl got a tickbite this year with a 104 degree fever.
So, in such a case, you look at 2 bands, exposure to ticks, and you know you have a lyme case. But she can't get IV rocephin because of the CDC. etc.
That's why we say it's a clinical diagnosis. What else is left to us?
Igenex is very reliable, imo.
Unexpected, you mis-read what I wrote. I never said, "If you never had a bullseye." I wrote a list of indications for lyme disease, that I would rely on. A bullseye is diagnostic without any other indicator.
Also, an ART practitioner who suggests amazon herbs and MMS may be a good doctor but he is not an LLMD, imo.
I don't want to get into an argument here and I may be headed that way. If so, I'm going to bow out.
As for Scott, you've been on everything mainstream and alternative I can think of in the last few years. I don't know how you're doing actually. I don't know how to evaluate your situation because you try so many things at once.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
lymednva
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 9098
posted
oxygenbabe said:
quote: Igenex tests are very reliable and usually don't miss these things.
You are confusing me here. You make the statement more than once that Igenex tests are very reliable.
Then you say if someone has two positive bands they have Lyme, even though that would be labeled a negative WB blot by Igenex.
I have never had more than two positive bands on a WB from Igenex, but have the clinical dx of Lyme.
I've also traced my symptoms back over 40 years, and I do know I had quit making antibodies by my early 20's.
IMO a negative Igenex WB does not rule out Lyme, which is why there are clinical dx's. However a positive Igenex WB definitely indicates Lyme.
BTW, James, keep up the hard work. We just worry about you sometimes because we don't want you to overdo it. It takes a lot of courage to do what you are doing.
-------------------- Lymednva Posts: 2407 | From over the river and through the woods | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
no, lyme IS a clinical diagnosis. there are lab markers that can help indicate lyme, but even if one tests negative one can be actively infected and diagnosed clinically by an LLMD.
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
ps. i have found ART to be extremely reliable but it takes an open mind and a skilled practitioner and i realize not everyone has access to both.
posted
James, a constructive comment (hopefully)? How about creating a website of your findings -- photos and all? That would be cool...
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
jamescase20
Unregistered
posted
A website costs money, which I dont have at the moment.
IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
OB - I am not working on my own health for purposes of others to evaluate it.
Everyone knows that Lyme is difficult. In my opinion, integrating conventional and alternative options is the most logical way to approach the disease.
I think you will find more and more treating docs that used to use ABX alone are also starting to change their views in this area and focusing more on detox, herbs, etc. Antibiotics are not the solution; though they may be a part of it.
I happily share my journey with others in hopes that they benefit from it but I am not looking for evaluation or validation from others (though I do appreciate feedback and learning from others) that my journey is the correct one for me. It may not be the correct one for others and then again it may well be.
As for ART, I'd happily toss every last conventional test into the garbage vs. losing the benefits I have gotten from the information revealed by ART.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
To clarify again, two bands is a positive, but not by the CDC. However an LLMD knows that is a positive. The CDC is dishonest.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
Actually, 2 bands on IgM IS positive even by CDC criteria.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
lymie_in_md
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14197
posted
This has been very constructive as far as getting to new points of view. I really appreciate lymenet. It continues to help progressively get us closer to the issues concerning our health. What I really appreciate most is the civility of our debates.
Hopefully LNE takes note, and somehow appreciates other points view in a civilized manner. As far as I'm concerned only a barbarian would use the bashing hammer on a fellow lymie.
I think james has given us a new weapon. The combination of monolaurin or lauricidan with MMS. I thank him for his efforts and we should all celebrate.
-------------------- Bob Posts: 2150 | From Maryland | Registered: Dec 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
James, there are many ways to get a free web site; blogs, web sites and more. I wish I could help you now, but I am swamped. Others that can help James, pls PM him...
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Yes I agree James' experiments are very interesting.
Scott--the webpage you cited states:
"There are currently multiple criteria that support a positive blot. "Positive" means that certain antibodies to B. burgdorferi are present. The CDC/ASTPHLD criteria are very conservative, require 5 of 10 bands (antibodies) for a positive result, and do not recognize equivocal or borderline results."
The CDC requires 5 bands. This has been true for a long time. This allows insurance companies to refuse to pay in many cases. That is what this poor woman is going thru and she's only in her early 30's and is really sick. I'm not sure what's going to happen to her. From my perspective she seems to be getting worse each time I see her.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Hey James how about shutting up those guys and posting the pictures day by day showing clearly all the keets and proving that MMS work? that would be awesome.
Posts: 13 | From U.S of A | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
CDC requires 5 bands for IgG. They require 2 bands for IgM.
From the page I originally posted:
The CDC/ASTPHLD criteria for a positive result are two of the following three bands: 23-25 kDa (Osp C); 39 kDa; and/or 41 kDa
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
So what is your point, Scott? She does not have 5 positive IgG. She's been sick a while.
How does a person get 4 positive IgG and that's not enough evidence they have lyme? Its completely arbitrary and basically criminal imo.
And this is off topic of my point which is that if someone gets muscle tested and told they have lyme, and then muscle tested and told they no longer have lyme, that's not evidence enough for *me* especially on a message board. This is not against Bob and he understands where I'm coming from.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[group hug]](graemlins/grouphug.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
![[bonk]](graemlins/bonk.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic