Topic: Oral Vit D Suppl - Cause of Allergy Pandemic?
TX Lyme Mom
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A paper was published recently in a European allergy journal suggesting that the history of our modern day allergy "pandemic" might be caused (at least in part) by the addition of oral vit D supplements to the food chain.
Note that this research was done in Europe, where they don't always concur with the dominating influence of American medical ideas over their countries' health policies.
It hsa been our family's experience over the last 4-5 years that cutting out synthetic vit D -- by buying whole milk without vit D added to it (because the FDA requires that vit D be added to all milk which has had its fat content altered) -- that this minor change in our diet has been enough to get rid of Hubby's seasonal allergies and to strengthen his immune system so that he doesn't catch every cold and flu bug that comes around every winter.
Hubby teaches on a college campus, and the college students come to class sick, knowing that they are sick, because they don't want to get behind in their work. He used to catch every flu bug that went around the campus all winter long, every winter -- but not since he started drinking vit D-free milk 4.5 years ago. No more colds and flu at our house anymore now, thank goodness.
Our daughter used to think that she was "allergic to milk" or that perhaps she was "lactose intolerant" -- but once she switched to non-fortified (D-free) whole milk, she has tolerated milk just fine ever since.
I will never ever bring another carton of "fortified" (with vit D) milk into our house again, ever -- as long as I live! Sometimes we even have to do without milk for a week or so whenever the store runs out of the only brand of D-free milk sold in our little town.
Unfortunately, some LLMDs are now recommending vit D supplementation to their Lyme patients. I strongly encourage each of you to look into both the pros AND the cons of vit D supplementation for yourselves.
We learned about the harmful effects of vit D supplementation at the Marshall Protocol (MP) website. Here are links to more info about vit D from the MP website:
TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by massman: What FORM of D ?
D3 ?
Was the added stuff the cheap form ?
Answer: Either or both forms (D2 or D3) of synthetic D can be harmful.
Even too much natural vit D found in fish oil, especially if it's rancid -- as much of the fish oil capsules on the market are -- can be bad, too.
Be sure to look at this paper by Greg Blaney, MD (link below) which was published recently in the prestigious Annals of the NY Academy of Sciences, based on data collected from 100 of his patients. It includes data from about a dozen "post-Lyme" patients.
(I hate that term "post-Lyme" but that's what Lymies are called in the mainstream medical literature, so that's what Blaney called them in his paper also in order to be consistent with the current accepted terminology.)
TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Gahagan: Hmm. Very interesting. Indeed, my LLMD recommended Vit D supplements instead of getting flu vaccines.
Frustrating when there is strong, yet conflicting, recommendations about anything.
Oh, what to do....what to do?
Gahagan, what used to work pretty well for our family has been high doses of vit C plus extra vit B, instead of taking supplemental vit D. That was in the old days, a couple of decades ago, before vit D became such a big fad and when megadoses of vit C was still the big fad at that time.
In fact, I remember getting over flu within just 1-2 days one year when the flu season was particularly bad by taking vit C plus vit B around the clock, every 2-3 hours, even at night whenever I woke up. I was back on my feet in less than 3 days while everyone else was down and out for 2-3 weeks. I'll never forget that experience because I never expected it to work that well.
In fact, if I recall correctly, that was probably back during the 1976 Swine Flu epidemic. I'm pretty sure it was, based on the ages of my children at the time. I wouldn't have thought about this or have remembered it if you hadn't raised this question. Thanks for jogging my memory.
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-------------------- --Lymetutu-- Opinions, not medical advice! Posts: 96239 | From Texas | Registered: Feb 2001
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Lymetoo: That makes no sense to me at all!!!
Hey TuTu, You're (usually) one very smart chickadee. So, what part of it doesn't make sense to you?
Did you really read it?
Did you look at any of the other links?
What's not understandable about it, TuTu?
Or did you maybe have a really bad night's sleep at Holiday Inn last night, huh?
Wake up, TuTu. Vit D supplementation is not innocuous, despite all the marketing hype about its value and importance.
Look, TuTu, if Vit D had been discovered today, instead of earlier in the last century, it never would have been named as a "vitamin" -- because it's NOT a vitamin.
It's a seco-steroidal hormone instead. And we all know that steroidal hormones can be like a double-edged sword, not to be played around with, nor taken in excess or inadvisably.
TuTu, I hope you haven't been taking so much synthetic vit D lately that your brain is starting to turn to mush now.
Remember, vit D and vit A are both fat-soluble vitamins, meaning that they are stored in the body's fatty tissues and that they can build up to toxic levels. They aren't innocuous like water-soluble vitamins are which are washed out of the body if you take too much of them, thereby creating nothing worse than expensive urine.
Please, TuTu, take another look at those links before you poison yourself with anymore of this potentially toxic substance. We love you too much, TuTu, to watch you harm yourself that way.
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Ocean
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Where did she get the unfortified milk from? Possibly it wasn't homogenized because some people can tolerate non-homogenized milk just fine.
Makes me think she got it from a small time dairy farm, like where my sis gets her milk, it is pasturized, but not homonegized
posted
It doesn't really make sense, as most people are deficient in D.
D fortification in milk is usually minimal anyway, somewhere around 400IU of D2 (not an amount that will boost D levels a whole lot in most people).
And there is no difference between D3 (either from cod liver or lanolin) and the D3 your body produces from the sun. Well, there is one difference, in that a person can megadose D orally a lot easier than via the sun, but the fortification in milk is hardly a megadose.
Dairy has been implicated with allergies, however. Perhaps it's more the brand -- organic grass fed cows, pasteurization, homogenization or some other factor in the milk. Milk isn't really so healthy anyway (casein, etc), but that is a different matter.
Anyway, I wouldn't blame the D.
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Ocean: Where did she get the unfortified milk from? Possibly it wasn't homogenized because some people can tolerate non-homogenized milk just fine.
The FDA requires that all milk which has had its fat content altered must be fortified with vit D. However, it's optional whether the distributors add synthetic vit D to their whole milk or not.
Whole Foods carries both kinds of whole milk -- organic, of course. It's all homogenized, so that's not the issue.
Organic Valley, which is sold in smaller health food stores, produces both fortified and non-fortified whole milk since they are aware that not everyone desires milk that has been supplemented with vit D.
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Lemon-Lyme: It doesn't really make sense, as most people are deficient in D.
That point is highly debatable -- especially if one measures BOTH forms of vitamin D, including 1,25-D, not just 25-D alone.
Please read the information at the MP website (links in the first post of this topic, above) about this more carefully so that you are familiar with both points of view about it before making up your mind.
Here is a link to another article which discusses the problems with supplemental vit D and the fact that most people are NOT deficient in 25-D at all. Quite the contrary. Persons who have chronic health problems often have dysregulated vitamin D metabolism, instead of simple 25-D deficiency.
posted
Not going to argue on the merits of Vitamin D, but do agree that the letter from the Lyme patient was misleading.
Switching from non-whole milk with vitamin D added to whole milk without vitamin D it is not valid to assume that vitamin D is the only issue. What about the increased good fats in the whole milk? -- that could be what helped the family.
Mom and dad had a milk cow for years and I can tell you there is a tremendous difference in "store-bought" milk and the real thing. And there are big differences in milk fat content between Holsteins (most common commercial dairy breed) and other breeds such as Ayrshire, Guernsey or Jersey. Actually dad's last milk cow was a Charolais from his beef herd.
Bea Seibert
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TX Lyme Mom
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Massman, Back in those days, all vit C sold was ascorbic acid. Period. None of the variety of different kinds of vit C back then. Everyone was on the bandwagon started by ..?.. can't think of the name of that famous scientist who won TWO Nobel Prizes and who took mega-doses of vit C. He lived into his 90s.
Actually, I followed a formula in an old out-of-print copy of an Adelle Davis nutrition book which stated that vit B-2 plus vit B-6 plus vit C would get rid of colds and flu. I didn't really expect it to work, but I tried it anyway out of necessity since there weren't any other natural options back then.
I took this combo every 2-3 hrs around the clock, including everytime that I woke up in the middle of the night. I can't remember if I took an aspirin with it or not, but I might have taken enough aspirin to keep my fever down. I just don't remember.
What I do remember though is that I was very surprised how effective it was because I had never experienced anything like that in my life before -- with the exception of the occasional rare use of an antibiotic for acute infections, of course. That's how effective that vit C + vit B combo around the clock was for flu that season.
It's hard to remember back that far, but that experience with vit C + B for flu is what got me started on the track of looking for other natural alternatives to all kinds of family ills.
As far as the difference between vit D2 vs vit D3, I try very hard to avoid both forms.
Furthermore, I don't like to use fish oil either -- although FWIW, the article by Matthias Wjst, cited above, states that fish oil isn't as bad as synthetic, water-based forms of vit D. (Quote below from pg. 8 of the Wjst article)
"Merck AG also sold a combination of vitamin A and vitamin D (that was already on the market in the pre-war years). This combination, mimicking the high vitamin A and vitamin D content of cod liver oil, seems to antagonize the immunological effects of vitamin D [20], [21]. The effects of cod liver oil may therefore not be fully comparable to chemically synthesized vitamin D. Another difference is the oily basis of cod liver extract that may have less allergenic properties than the watery solution used for some vitamin D supplements [22]."
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TX Lyme Mom
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TuTu and I have been having a private little exchange by PM, but TuTu's mail box is full now, so I'm going to take a short-cut by posting my most recent reply to her here instead so that I don't lose it.
Nope, my dear darling TuTu. You're absolutely right.. that I'm going to say "You're wrong!"
Nope, you are NOT deficient in vit D -- not if you have 1,25-D, which is the active form of vit D -- sorta' like there are two kinds of thyroid -- T4 and T3, with T3 being the "active" form of thyroid.
Well, 1,25-D is the "active" form of vit D. That's why it's so important to measure both forms -- and it must be measured properly, too, by freezing the sample during transport because it deteriorates rapidly if it's not frozen. Lab Crap (my name for Lab Corp) doesn't freeze their samples, so their test results are a wasted effort and expense.
Taking supplemental vit D is somewhat similar to taking cortizone or cortisol. It makes you feel good in the short term, but later on it catches up with you after you have built up to a toxic level of it -- just like too much cortizone or cortisol will come back to bite you, and then you have to stop taking it, and it can be very hard to get off of it.
Do read the material at the MP-KB website. They do a really good job of explaining it understandably -- much better than I can do.
I probably need to go back and post some of this for everyone at LymeNet....
And so that's just what I'm doing right now.
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gwb
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TLM, what do people who have low vitamin D do if it's not advisable to take vitamin D3 supplements?
posted
Gary, that's a good question. After being on the MP and getting better, I have some different ideas on this...all of which are still in the formative stages. In other words, "dunno right now."
A few related thoughts: how would one know if one has a D dysreg problem? I think that is THE question. TexMom has stated with the references that it is the pathogens that "weigh down" the immune system and cause this dysregulation. And that's an oversimplification on my part.
I still cannot explain this process to people, let alone myself, so it's Ok to be perplexed, IMHO.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I've read over the first abstract and have read articles about Marshall before.
I don't want to offend anyone, but most real scientists consider Marshall a borderline -- or over the border -- quack..
He's not a medical doctor and most of his theories have no actual clinical proof.
That said, it is worth getting 1, 25 tested and for some people, supplementing with D is a bad thing (such as in sarcoidosis people). But his theories don't really have scientific backing at this point.
I wouldn't go crazy supplementing with D3 (I wouldn't go over a serum of 50 at this point, until data shows a benefit), but remaining in a deficiency state can't be good for anyone. I have bad allergies, by the way, and tested deficient in D years ago (serum of 21), after supplementing to get it in the 40-50 range, my allergies didn't get any worse -- and I noticed less aches and pains too.
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I'd look at other things before jumping to conclusions about Vit.D Canada has proclaimed that their science has found that 70% of all Cancers are the result of subnormal amounts of Vit D. Other things that fit your thinking are, Cell phones, Plastics, genetic foods, Pesticides and more.
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Lemon-Lyme: I've read over the first abstract and have read articles about Marshall before.
I don't want to offend anyone, but most real scientists consider Marshall a borderline -- or over the border -- quack..
He's not a medical doctor and most of his theories have no actual clinical proof.
I have trouble defending Trevor Marshall personally because he does have his personality "quirks" -- to put it euphemistically. He has about as much tact as a porcupine or a skunk, to be quite honest about it. But I'll give the man credit for being a scientific genius -- or close to it.
His hypothesis and protocol worked for our daughter and she is well now after having been ill for most of her life since early childhood, and for that we are indebted to him -- even if he has been unforgiveably rude to us. (Long story)
So there, now you know where I'm coming from, regarding my own personal bias about the dangers of hypervitaminosis D -- or dysregulated vitamin D, as some might prefer to call it. I'm not here to sell the MP to anyone though because I know of too many folks who got into trouble with it, especially back in the early days before they had most of the wrinkles worked out of their treatment guidelines so that people were herxing too hard and were dropping like flies along the wayside.
What I am trying to accomplish though is to create awareness of the dangers of too much exogenous vit D and how it can impede progress towards recovery.
I'm told that someone was asking why I came back to LymeNet after having been away for so long, and my answer to that is that the people who helped us the most over the years of our long journey in quest of answers were those few patients -- and I can count them on one hand -- who had triumphed over incredible odds and who had recovered their health from so-called "incurable" diagnoses (of various kinds, not necessarily Lyme disease).
At any rate, I try to contribute what little I can, when I can, as a way of paying back what LymeNet meant to us during those earlier years after she found her Lyme diagnosis but before we found the MP, which was a major factor in her successful recovery. Here's a link to a summary of her progress on the MP, written several years ago, but things just kept getting better and better from then on.
She is completely off the MP now, BTW, and has been off all antibiotics for approx. 8 months and has remained symptom free since discontinuing the MP. We won't dare to use the "C" word (hint: "cure") yet, until she is 5 years out -- you know, sorta' like cancer -- you aren't "cured" of cancer until you have been in remission for 5 full years without relapse. Nevertheless, for the very first time ever, we sincerely believe that this time it's for real.
However, let me reiterate that I'm not here to try to sell the MP to anyone because we know how difficult it is and what the pitfalls are for Lyme patients who have tried the MP, many of whom were not so lucky to be as successful as she has been. That's not the point.
The main point of this topic is that there is a definite down side to supplementing with exogenous vit D and that the LLMDs who are recommending it are not fully informed about the problems caused by exogenous vit D, especially synthetic vit D -- as opposed to fish oil sources of vit D, which don't seem to be quite as bad as synthetic vit D. Fish oil isn't necessarily good, of course, but it's just not quite as bad as synthetic vit D.
I've forgotten what else I had intended to add here, but this post is long enough, so I'll stop now and give someone else a turn to comment -- cause I know that most of you are very dubious about all of this.
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Pinelady
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I think if they did not have so many people with lyme disease they would not focus so much on D deficiencies with no cause. Did I say that right?
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Pinelady: I think if they did not have so many people with lyme disease they would not focus so much on D deficiencies with no cause. Did I say that right?
Huh?
Try again, please. I don't follow what you're trying to say here.
BTW, please keep in mind that today is a big family holiday, and I've got to start making my casseroles soon -- to take to someone else's house, thank goodness. Also, I've got family coming into town tomorrow for the rest of the weekend.
Thus, if I fail to answer anyone's concerns in a prompt manner, then I'll try to get back around to it whenever I have a spare, uninterrupted minute or two -- or maybe not until after the holiday weekend is past.
I did intend to comment on the cancer concerns raised by Al, but it will take me a whole lot more time to try to respond to that because it's a complex subject. Thus, the relation of cancer to vit D "deficiency" will simply have to wait until much later also -- just so y'all know that I'm not trying to brush off anyone's concerns.
I realize I overlooked Bea's comment, too. She made a very good point though, and I did want to acknowledge seeing it. Thanks, Bea. We do have other valid reasons, based on our daughter's experiences with the MP, for believing that it's the synthetic D in the milk though, but that explanation will require sufficient time for me to delve into it in more thorough detail later, also.
Thanks for everyone's interest and attention so far in this important (and misunderstood) topic concerning the pros and cons of vit D supplemtation. Stay tuned....
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Pinelady
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I think what I meant was there are thousands of
people who have moderate to severe vitamin D
deficiency and they are not telling them a large
majority of those patients are suffering from a lot
more than Just Vitamin D deficiency. I do think
it will be found that people who have certain
deficiencies do in fact have it for a reason. Not
just because we don't get enough sun. The
scientists are telling them with loss of our
ozone we are getting more sun than ever before,
yet we have more D deficiency than ever before.
So..
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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Can you post a study link showing lanolin D3 is different than fish oil D3? To the best of my knowledge, D3 is either synthesized from fish liver or lanolin (sheep wool). The end product of either process should be exactly the same thing.
And vitamin D produced by sunlight in the body is also D3. I don't see how there are any differences there.
There could be a difference using D2, as absorption could be different, and prescription D2 (which could be called synthetic) is just a way for pharmaceutical companies to patent and sell a cheap vitamin and make a profit. Sadly some doctors don't realize this,and prescribe megadoses of prescription D2 (50K a pill), which isn't the natural way people receive vitamin D (too many peaks and valleys).
As for more people being deficient in D now, than the past... maybe? I mean, if they never checked for it, how would anyone know? It's not until very recently that doctors would even test for D levels, and even now, they usually only do it if you ask for that test specifically.
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Pinelady
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Because vitamin D is a fat-soluble vitamin, it is mostly packaged in gelatin capsules, which are made from animal bones. Look for a vegetable-based capsule, or vitamin D as part of a tablet or liquid multivitamin supplement.
Some forms of vitamin D are not vegan. The most common form found in supplements is cholecalciferol, or vitamin D3, which is derived from sheep's wool.
Vitamin D2, ergocalciferol, on the other hand, is derived from vegan sources like yeast and mushrooms. There is some debate over the usefulness of D2 vs. D3 in the body (many think D3 is superior) but for now, the two are generally considered equivalent.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
Great post TXLymemom....thats what drives me crazy about all these Vita D studies. Most don't check the relationship of Vita D 1.25 by a good lab. Vita D 1.25 should be the marker if your D level is too low.
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emla999/Lyme
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If I am understanding that article correctly..... you shouldn't take Vitamin D unless you also take Vitamin A and Vitamin K2. Vitamin D needs to be in balance with Vitamin A and K2.
So, does the Marshall protocol help some people NOT because they have high levels of Vitamin D but because they have low levels of Vitamin A and/or Vitamin K2????
quote:Originally posted by emla999/Lyme: So, does the Marshall protocol help some people not because they have high levels of Vitamin D but because they have low levels of Vitamin A and Vitamin K2???? [/QB]
Sounds plausible. Sufficient vit A reduces vit D toxicity and vice versa.
Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).
Perhaps there is a synergy there.
Note: Biofilms are relevant because Marshall claims that bacteria in biofilms generate capnine, which blocks the VDR.
[ 11-26-2009, 11:58 PM: Message edited by: ninjaphire ]
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posted
Okay i have trouble understanding the details via doctors.
My question is simple to whom ever might can answer me.
I was told i had low vitamine d. So i went out and bought over the counter d3 and was taking 4,000 mg a day two pills every morning.
Now from what i have read it gives you calcium? Right? Well this week i ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Doc said i may have thrown a stone . Wonder if the vit d i was taking could have caused this?
Anyone got any ideas. Im scared to death right not to eat anything or take meds. I DO NOT want to go threw this again.
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emla999/Lyme
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quote: Originally posted by ninjaphire:
Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).
I wonder if taking Vitamin K2 would also help reduce or dissolve biofilms in other areas of the body?
TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by O2Btickfree2: I was told i had low vitamine d. So i went out and bought over the counter d3 and was taking 4,000 mg a day two pills every morning.
Now from what i have read it gives you calcium? Right? Well this week i ended up in the hospital with pancreatitis. Doc said i may have thrown a stone . Wonder if the vit d i was taking could have caused this?
Anyone got any ideas. Im scared to death right not to eat anything or take meds. I DO NOT want to go threw this again.
My motto has always been: "When in doubt, leave it out."
I'm pretty sure that the vit D probably did contribute to your calcium dysregulation and stone formation, leading to pancreatitis, which can happen if the bile ducts get blocked. However, I'll be honest in saying that I don't know enough to be certain about this.
That's why I always fall back on my little motto (above) about discontinuing anything that might have contributed to it until there is sufficient time to research it further in order to be sure of its safety.
I'm going to relay your question back to my "smart friends" in the MP group because I'm confident that one of them can give you a better answer than I can about it. (Hopefully, they won't be too busy on this hoiday weekend to give it their immediate attention, but if they are busy, then please be patient. Please prompt me by PM if you haven't received a response by next week because I realize that your situation is both serious and urgent.)
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Shosty
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I have osteoporosis at 58. I wish I had taken D earlier.
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Brussels
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I took Vit D3 when my levels were low, recommended by my doc. Most lyme sufferers supplement Vit D. I did that for a long time, until my levels got better.
I got healed from lyme (I'm in my 7th month remission) and don't buy this story from Marshall either.
Virtually anything can cause allergies. Milk is one of THE most allergenic products on the planet together with wheat. And people still consume these in high amounts.
I wouldn't though supplement Vit D (nor any vitamin) blindly. In excess, even water can be bad.
I am now free of lyme treatment but will be on Vit D during winter. I do feel some protective effect against colds. I got to continue for longer to be sure though.
Osteoporosis runs in my family, female side. I'll be considering taking Vit D as preventative too. Possibly not all the time, mostly during winter though.
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by Shosty: I have osteoporosis at 58. I wish I had taken D earlier.
Shosty, I've been looking for a quote by my friend George, a fellow MPer, who reversed his osteoporosis by reducing his hypervitaminosis D back down into the normal range again. It took him a couple of years to accomplish this feat though. His improvement has even been documented by bone scans.
I've e-mailed him to ask him to post a response here because I know that you would rather hear about it straight from the horse's mouth, but I suspect that he is out of town this weekend for the family Thanksgiving holiday.
(Edit: I'm editing to add that George's screen name here at LymeNet is "Dark Vader" because I've noticed that George had heeded my request for him to post his experience with reversal of his osteoporosis by reducing his vit D levels. See Dark Vader's post, below.)
In the meantime, here's a link for both you and also for Brussels to an explanation that might help you both to understand better why vit D supplementation is NOT the right answer for osteoporosis.
TX Lyme Mom
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Emla99/Lyme has posted some fantastic links. I especially liked the Whole Health Source blogspot link that she posted, so I clicked around a bit at that website. That's how I found this article about celiac which explains how celiac patients often suffer from malabsorption of fats and fatty acids, leading to lower levels of vitamin D. http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2008/12/gluten-sensitivity-celiac-disease-is.html
Therefore, I would be very leary of taking any supplemental fat-soluble vitamins, which can build up to toxic levels, without being tested first for celiac diseaseas being the cause of the vitamin deficiency. Remember, vitamin K is contraindicated for anyone who has a tendency towards hypercoagulation or who must take Rx blood thinning medications. Vit K is given to stop blood loss due to hemorrhaging.
Vit K was given to me as a child when I had whooping cough and was losing too much blood from frequent heavy nose bleeding caused by the constant coughing, and it made a lasting impression on me 'cause I hated it whenever my mother would call the doctor to come to the house and give me another vit K shot to stop my nose bleeds.
Thanks for pointing out all of those good website links, Emla, especially this one.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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posted
For those not familiar with me, I am longterm "Lymie" according to your terminology (but consider "Lymie" a bad expression). I have been on the MP for a bit over five years now. I fully subscribe to Dr. Trevor Marshall's (Phd) hypothesis that the chronic illnesses of unknown cause are really a soup or stew of certain bacteria (forms) that cause a soup or stew of symptoms. It is NOT one germ or bacteria causing one illness (symptom or set of symptoms). Sorry that you cannot accept someone other than a certified medical doctor as knowing anything about medical matters. You wouldn't have accepted Louis Pasteur's discovery either, I guess, that germs (bacteria) can cause some illnesses.... he was a chemist, not a medical doctor. It was a medical doctor that hobbled his discovery with what is called The Koch Postulates (circa 1860's) that still hobble medical doctors thinking outside of the box today. They cannot let go of the proposition that it is NOT just one germ (bacterium) causing trouble. The tools that Koch used have been far surpassed in ability but the med docs cannot accept that propostion.
The NIH (Nat'l Institute of Health) has been studying since the mid-1980's the human DNA (genomic studies). What is the biggest discovery to come out of that is that is that the human body is probably only 10% human cells and 90% bacterial cells. It is NOT Bb, and a certain Bb at that, that is causing the Lymie's troubles. It is the soup or stew of various bacteria being able to control body processes, via the production, or the lack of production of the peptides, etc, that the innate immune system needs to ward off invaders, that enable the bacteria to live within the body. The bacteria do this via the VDR, which has, until NOW, been assumed to be necessary for the uptake of calcium. But this is an outdated concept!!! But the 25D (you call this D3 or D2) has a greater affinity to attach to the VDR than does the 125D hormone that the body really needs, and produces within the skin and within the eyes.
The below says a lot in a quick way, but is not all inclusive on the subject. Found at: http://tinyurl.com/mnqds9
"I am a retired biochemist who spent years in teaching and research on the regulation of biochemical pathways for interconversions of molecules in cells. A generalisation from the observations in this field is that a high concentration of the functional end product of a pathway will provide negative feedback to lower the concentration of an earlier intermediate (precursor) in the pathway. For vitaminD, the functional end product is 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. This is rarely measured, because its amount in the body and its stability is low and its assay is difficult and expensive. The major product circulating in blood and routinely measured as an indicator of vitamin D status is 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. This is a precursor of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD. The established logic of regulation for biochemical pathways says high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD will lead to lowered levels of 25-monohydroxy vitaminD. There is data on the actual mechanisms by which this can occur. There also data that 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD can increase in response to infection. Common sense and honesty requires consideration of the strong hypothesis that people who have low levels of measured vitaminD (25-monohydroxy vitaminD) have high levels of 1,25-dihydroxy vitaminD because they are sick with some form of infection. To suggest that the people are sick because they are vitaminD deficient without having data to rule out the above possibility (likelihood) is sloppy science." Posted by: Lloyd Finch 07:38pm Thursday 23rd July 2009 ************************************
I ramped up to 16,000 units of D3 by June 04. As I ramped up, I felt better, than worse. By quiting all D, or as much as I could, following the MP, I was able to get over a diagnosis of osteopenia by DEXA machine (before & after); get over a dx of granulotmatous disease as "evidence by the depositing of calcium in the soft tissue of my chest area (by x-ray); get over a thyroid condition called Wilson's temperature syndrome (use Google); get over arthritis in my hands, including getting rid of a "nodule" that had developed on a finger; and, my neuropathy in my feet has not increased any, but may have subsided some. Considering the NIH's "90% bacterial cells" composition of my body, I probably have some more work to do using the MP to get over some other symptoms that I have.
Sorry! I do not have time today to set straight some very popular ideas about D that I have read on this site as being true, but aren't. If you really want to learn, do read the articles at www.bacteriality.com (info gathered by two MP members), and do not overlook the links in the right hand column.
Also, spend the 11:44 minutes to view the video at http://www.youtube.com/user/DrTrevorMarshall Use the button just below the video to stop or backtrack to more fully understand what Marshall is saying or to understand the graphics.
The trouble is not "Lyme disease". The trouble is the soup or stew of bacteria causing a soup or stew of symptom or sets of symptoms, given the name "Th1 inflammation". We need to re-enable the innate immune system via the gaining control of the VDR again. Forget supplements!!! But do stop the intake of so-called "vitamin" D. It is a steroid, not a vitamin. Would you take Prednisone on a regular basis?
I apologize if I have been abrupt. I have some things to do this holiday weekend. Some of the things said herein, are "old wives medical ideas", and not worth much.
Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader
P.S A very cheap test for the "Th1 inflammation" condition, is how you feel after getting lots of sun, maybe as far as two weeks after the lots of sun, and, if you have been given a dx of cataracts. The sun may cause your hormones to swing rather violently, and you will feel lousy. The cataracts may be the body's natural defense to cut down the amount of 125D hormone produced by the body. P.S.S. If you will do some research, you will find that there are some animals that never see the light of day, and yet their bodies produce sufficient 125D hormone (the necessary D).
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
"If you will do some research, you will find that there are some animals that never see the light of day, and yet their bodies produce sufficient 125D hormone (the necessary D)."
Sure. There are animals who do not need vitamin C either, maybe we should stop our consumption of that one as well?
Sounds good!
Sea turtles only eat jelly fish, so using that reasoning maybe we only need jelly fish, too? Maybe we should ask the big boss about that one?
Vader, this is a whole lot of MP nonsense you are throwing out here. If you choose to believe all the MP patchwork of theories, and then choose to take it a step farther and assume these theories, stitched together, are the long-searched for holy grail that connects all of human illness ... well, that's fine. You are free to do so. But to speak of these theories as though they are proven fact is another thing entirely.
Not every D deficient chronically Ill person has raised 1,25 D (though the MP folks have a dozen ways around this too). And for those who do -- as far as I know, despite MP claims to the contrary, other than in the case of sarc no one knows what it means just yet. Perhaps chronically ill patients are converting 25-D to 1,25-D at a rapid rate in order to make additional antimicrobial peptides to kill the bugs, and then to amp up production of anti-inflammatory cytokines in order to cool off the mess. How do you know that that's not what's happening? Maybe the benicar turns off the immune response, not on. Maybe the benicar allows the inflammatory cascade cool off for some patients. I say some patients because, based on the varied patient response, it obviously does not work as suggested by MP administrators.
I've been watching this MP movement since somewhere around 2003. I have seen the MP unfold with grandiose theories, all of which were assembled AFTER they experimented with the minocycline and benicar (I believe they may have started with plaq and doxy). In other words, they built this entire hypothetical patchwork as an explanation based on what (they decided to believe) was happening after taking these meds -- they didn't build the protocol on the science.
You said:
"We need to re-enable the innate immune system via the gaining control of the VDR again."
Umm, sure. Why don't you tell us how to do that? Would that be by taking benicar, which acts as a "VDR agonist" and displaces 25-D or 1,25-D? If so, how do you know that? Because MP says so? It seems like this would be pretty easy to show in a lab -- has it been done? The MP has been around a long time now; have there been ANY experiments showing any of it to be true? Oh wait! We don't need any experiments, because we have a computer model that says it's true! And that model has been peer reviewed and repeated? Oh, wait, never mind -- that hasn't happened either.
Even easier, have there been any experiments conducted to measure the immune responses of patients taking or avoiding vitamin D? As many others have pointed out, how about a simple experiment starting with baseline values of two groups, then have one group supplement with D and bring their values up. And have the other group bring their levels down to zero by avoidance and cave dwelling? And then test both groups for immune function, various cytokines and chemokines and so forth? That sounds pretty simple?
What about doing the same thing using benicar? Has that been done yet? (And if money is the limiting factor, the stumbling block, then perhaps all those trips to Hungary and China Timbuktu to speak could take a backseat to some solid lab work for a while?)
Surely the folks at those web sites you mention as sources would not be irresponsible enough to push these ideas as FACT without compelling evidence? Could they?
And what about the patients?
Yes, we know there are successes, a handful of super responders (most, but not all, to my knowledge have been sarc patients). For them it is great, and like you, they often scream the benefits from the rooftops. I am thrilled that they have been helped so much by this therapy. But then there are many plodders, improving somewhat but nothing great, nothing spectacular. And finally, what about all the non responders, or those who get worse -- how does the MP explain them? I mean, other than by extending the timeframe back to health from the original 12-18 months to -- what is it now, 5 years, 10 years? Is it fair or ethical to patients, some of whom have been living in near dark for five-plus years with limited result, to tell them that it is just a matter of time, dangling this hope, when in fact no one knows what's going on inside their bodies? (And please PLEASE don't tell me that this is purely a herx.)
And getting back to the D thing ...
According to MP, if a patient improves with added D then that means it's acting "like a steroid" and turning off the immune system. Okay fine. But if a patient gets worse with D, well, then that means the same thing. Humph! So, who, exactly, other than dead patients, would not be a candidate for the MP? Sounds like the double talk of a certain hedge fund manager.
Is it possible that D is not immuno-suppressive, but immuno-modulatory, and that it has a much more plastic role in immunity than the simple on/off (black/white) model proposed by MP? And that we do not yet know what is happening?
I just hope that patients take some time to study and read (more than just MP sites) before jumping in. And I wish that MP followers would refrain from representing a hypothesis as fact.
I will not respond again on this thread. I have wasted too much energy on MP already.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Well, someone doesn't like the MP hypothesis!!!
And, I did call it a hypothesis, not fact. I am not the LORD so do not know for sure. Although, I do think of it as fact... for me. It is up to you, the individual, to decide. My good results says more than the negativity that you propose.... to me!!!
Tell me what have the med docs come up with since about the 1860's that really works for explaining chronic illnesses of unknown cause?
Why has the HIH proposed that we are composed with as much 90% bacteria? from the DNA studies?
For a fact.... the MP thinking has only been in the public forum since the Summer of 2002. It took from 1983 until 2005 for Dr. Barry Marshall, M.D., and his microbiologist cohort, to be awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine for their discovery about what h.plyori bacteria do. I will wager that you will be long time dead before the MP is proven beyond any doubt for such doubting people as you.
I am very willing to be a guinea pig for this new and believable hypothesis then to continue to be subject to the experimentation of the LLMDs (which four plus years did nothing for me) and the OMC (orthodox medical community), for the symptoms that I have experienced and have gotten rid of with the MP. Having experienced three spine surgeries that were supposed to get rid of some of my problems, and did nothing more than enrich the surgeon and the hospital staff, I will stand at the roof tops and say, "Hey! there is another hypothesis that seems to work better! at least for some people. You might just be one of those persons."
Good luck!
Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Well, someone doesn't like the MP hypothesis!!!
And, I did call it a hypothesis, not fact. I am not the LORD so do not know for sure. Although, I do think of it as fact... for me. It is up to you, the individual, to decide. My good results says more than the negativity that you propose.... to me!!!
Tell me what have the med docs come up with since about the 1860's that really works for explaining chronic illnesses of unknown cause?
Why has the HIH proposed that we are composed with as much 90% bacteria? from the DNA studies?
For a fact.... the MP thinking has only been in the public forum since the Summer of 2002. It took from 1983 until 2005 for Dr. Barry Marshall, M.D., and his microbiologist cohort, to be awarded a Nobel Prize in Medicine for their discovery about what h.plyori bacteria do. I will wager that you will be long time dead before the MP is proven beyond any doubt for such doubting people as you.
I am very willing to be a guinea pig for this new and believable hypothesis then to continue to be subject to the experimentation of the LLMDs (which four plus years did nothing for me) and the OMC (orthodox medical community), for the symptoms that I have experienced and have gotten rid of with the MP. Having experienced three spine surgeries that were supposed to get rid of some of my problems, and did nothing more than enrich the surgeon and the hospital staff, I will stand at the roof tops and say, "Hey! there is another hypothesis that seems to work better! at least for some people. You might just be one of those persons."
Good luck!
Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Vader, I know I said I wouldn't respond but I wanted to say I am very glad you are doing so well. I wanted to be sure you understand that I don't have anything against you, just with what you were saying.
Posts: 845 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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Also, K2 is needed to activate GMP which reduces arterial calcification, which is a biofilm.(Few mg of MK4 = No more dental plaque!!).
I wonder if taking Vitamin K2 would also help reduce or dissolve biofilms in other areas of the body?
.
I do know that I used to get some sort of herx from 10mg of MK-4. It felt a lot like a niacin flush, but it lasted longer, perhaps an hour or so.
Posts: 330 | From Colorado, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Pinelady
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 18524
posted
I have a theory that what ever you crave is what
your body needs. Look up what those foods have and
you can deduce what you are lacking. Except the
sugar, I know us lymers crave that.
-------------------- Suspected Lyme 07 Test neg One band migrating in IgG region unable to identify.Igenex Jan.09IFA titer 1:40 IND IgM neg pos 31 +++ 34 IND 39 IND 41 IND 83-93 + DX:Neuroborreliosis Posts: 5850 | From Kentucky | Registered: Dec 2008
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TX Lyme Mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3162
posted
O2BTickFree2, I've been concerned about what might have caused your pancreatitis, so I've spent a good bit of time searching for info about it for you.
I didn't find very much about pancreatitis in relation to vit D in particular -- well, I did find one tidbit relating hypervitaminosis D to pancreatitis at the MP-KB website, but it didn't have any reference citations. Here's that link, in case you would like to see it:
Nevertheless, I'm not satisfied that we know enough about it to say for sure if this could be the cause of your pancreatitis or not, so I did another search for you via Google for causes of pancreatitis. Maybe you will pick up a few helpful clues, so here's the link to the results from my Google search for your convenience in seeking answers for your worrisome condition:
This is about the best that I can do for you. I spent a couple of hours trying to find reliable info for you since I doubt that you are well enough to be able to spend very much time at the computer right now looking for your own answers.
I will add one more thing though, based on our daughter's experience with pseudocholelithiasis (pseudo gall stones) caused by IV Rocephin. It was very painful for her and pretty scary too because we realized that if a gall stone were to get stuck in the bile ducts that it could cause pancreatitis.
These kinds of "pseudo" gall stones are caused by a calcium nidus, around which bile sludging occurs, and the Rocephin contributes somehow to the formation of the calcium nidus which initiates the problem -- but that's all that I can remember about it without spending a couple of more hours (which I don't have this weekend) reviewing all of that material.
The same principle about nano-calcium deposits as the initiating event for gall stones could perhaps apply here though if the supplemental vit D which you had been taking might have caused a similar calcium deposit in the bile ducts which connect to the pancreas and that this might have set off your episode of pancreatitis. Mind you, this is pure speculation on my part -- nothing more, and nothing less -- with the usual legalistic disclaimer that I'm not a doctor, so seek your own doctor's advice.
If so, then that possiblity brings us full circle back to my original motto, quoted above, which I'll repeat again here: "If in doubt, leave it out" -- meaning leave out the vit D, that is, as a precaution, since we don't really know for sure if it might have been a contributing factor or not in causing your recent bout of pancreatitis.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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TX Lyme Mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3162
posted
quote:Originally posted by Al: I'd look at other things before jumping to conclusions about Vit.D Canada has proclaimed that their science has found that 70% of all Cancers are the result of subnormal amounts of Vit D. Other things that fit your thinking are, Cell phones, Plastics, genetic foods, Pesticides and more.
Sorry for the long delay in responding to A1's concerns about cancer in relation to vit D, but I was much more concerned with Q2BTickFree's recent bout with pancreatitis, and I've spent several hours on this busy holiday weekend doing research to try to help him out as best that I could since his situation is acute and urgent.
There is lots and lots of "hype" out there about cancer and low vit D, but none of the scientific articles published about it are very convincing, IMO. Most of them are written with conditional and subjunctive verb forms, and those papers are peppered with lots of uses of speculative words like "perhaps" and "maybe." (If articles about Lyme disease were written in this same pseudo-scientific style, they would never be accepted for publication, as we all know only too well.)
Considering the vested economic self-interests in these publications on the merits of vit D to prevent cancer, I don't place much confidence in any of them, due to their almost universal lack of scientific integrity.
The race is on now to find newer and improved forms of vit D -- namely, 1,25-D. But so far, all of these efforts have proven to be too toxic and too dangerous, so none of them have made it past the clinical trials safely in order to be approved by the FDA and brought onto the commerical market. Needless to say, that doesn't stop these hopeful entrepeneurs (sp?) from continuing to publish their research in hopes of hitting the jackpot.
For example, I'll bet that not many of y'all are aware that the royalties from the patents on synthetic vit D have paid for a $35M biochemistry building at the Univ of Wisconsin, which holds the patent on this invention - although I observe that the Univ of Wisc has changed its webpage and that they no longer boast about this lucrative aspect of their famous vit D discovery anymore.
That's where all the psuedo-scientific hype over the merits of vit D is coming from. It's the profit motive, pure and simple. Keep that point in mind whenever evaluation them, and do watch out for those little words "maybe" and "might" and "perhaps" which give it all away.
The important point for us to focus on here is that there is another side to the controversy about cancer and vitamin D. Here is just one link to help you get started, but it will lead you to many other good sources of information on this same subject:
This next statement might sound rude, and I don't intend it to be that way, but for the sake of this conversation, I would sincerely appreciate it if anyone who responds to the concern about cancer in relation to vit D, if you would at least be courteous and considerate enough to take the time to read the material in these 3 links above first before proceeding to argue an opposing point of view.
Otherwise, your comments belong under a separate topic, created by you, specifically for discussing that viewpoint, instead of hijacking this topic to those ends.
I would like for this topic to remain focused on broader and more general concerns about the pros and cons of vit D supplementation and not let this topic degenerate into a brawl over cancer, which deserves its own special subject heading, if anyone so desires.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Yes, please do continue the debate on vit D and the pros/cons of it's supplementation.
My levels are "beautiful" according to my Dr. but recently I have been considering adding Vit D to my protocol.
All these conflicting reports/angles/opinions are helpful.
Please continue
Derek
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
This is such crap. I spent years studying the MP and I fully understand the concept of low dose pulsed abx. It has been working for patients on the road back protocol long before Marshall ever came around and supposedly improved it with cave dwelling and the addition of benicar. I know just as many lyme, lupus, etc...patients who got well pulsing doxy, zith etc..without benicar as those who are doing well on the MP. I have seen just as many relapse going off the MP and the road back also. It is not a cure as he claims. Maybe one day. Maybe for some.
The pathogenic soup concept makes sense for SOME, but I still say that I don't remember ever being ill UNTIL I WAS BITTEN BY A TICK. Others with CFS, SARC may be different, but that's just me.
Posts: 770 | From USA | Registered: Jul 2006
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