posted
I suspect that at least some of you can believe that low dosages of lead, mercury and arsenic can be harmful if not lethal to a human. At least the people at the EPA think so. The dosage does not have to be large...only small over time, because the product builds up in the system. The FDA have removed much, if not most, of those products from our being able to digest them in any form.
May I suggest that you do a search using Google on the words "Pleaant Valley Farm Supply". It is a firm in CA. When you get to their site, use their search engine on the word "Quintox". Click on the appropriate links to see what the active ingredient is, and how it does it job. Then, think how close those actions are to what we call osteoporosis and the depositing of calcium on arteries that helps to cause the build up of cholesterol that helps/cause heart attacks and strokes. And, some people say that the active ingredient is good for humans!?!?
If you go further in your research on that product, you will find that the patent is owned by WARF... (Un of) Wisconsin Alumni Reseach Foundation. There is LOTS of money to be made if one can only convince the populance that it is good for them....based on some outdated "research" that used some "outdated" tools.
I used that product as was/is "recommended", and was spiraling down with more and more bad symptoms. Then, when I avoided that product, I have seen my hsCRP (high sensitivity C-Reactive protein) test score go from an average of 0.6 to 0.8 to "less than 0.1" [and the lab said that they re-did the test to be sure of the result], which the Harvard Med School and the Cleveland Clinic think is excellent.
Most people will not believe what their doctor does not understand. They leave it up to their med docs to "learn" first. So, keep listening to those med doc ideas.... and you will go downhill even further, I would wager. But do not think that a short haul making you feel good is really making you better for the long haul.
Good luck to you all!
Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Myco, IMHO, there was an equilibrium within your body's community of pleomorphic/biofilm bacteria [or whatever is the "stuff" that make up the up to 90% of bacterial cells that the NIH is saying make up your body now that they have done some studying of the DNA material within your body]. Then, you were bitten by a tick that had some Bb, or other "villian", this upset that equilibrium within the bacterial community.... and you felt it!!!!! and probably, are still feeling the affects.
Good luck with your getting better with the old medical thinking!!!!
Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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And for those that care about a blissful exit to rats
Quintox Mouse & Rat Bait (Pail of 50 Bags) This item (PAB061) is not currently available. No longer available from the manufacturer -- click here to see part #PAB063.
Mouse & Rat Bait Active ingredient in Quintox is cholecalciferol or vitamin D3. When ingested, it mobilizes calcium from the rodent's bones into its bloodstream, producing hypercalcemia and heart failure. Quintox acts faster than anticoagulants, causing death in 2 to 4 days, with feeding stopping immediately once the rodent eats a lethal dose. Testing has shown this bait to be highly effective, even against anticoagulant resistant rodent populations. Very little risk of secondary poisoning (e.g., if your cat or dog catches a poisoned mouse). However, pets and children should be kept from being able to access and/or consume the bait (please note that rodents may move the bait around, so exercise vigilance and caution if pets and/or children are a factor).
Why is it no longer available?! Good gosh, that's quite a find!? What the heck?
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Hi, Cold Feet, thanks! for setting me straight. Yes, that is what I meant... Peaceful Valley. Typo!
I got in touch with Bell Labs in Madison, Wisc., the manufacturer. I had bought some of the product to make sure that I would always have some to show folks, if needed. Bell did some re-packaging of the product. It is still available.
I have had some folks argue with me that a little may be OK; that what is used for the rats is a much higher dose. But, even a very little arsenic, lead and mercury does harm, it is known. And, the product is not proven beyond a doubt to be safe because no one seems to be interested in really studying the product. Almost all "new studies" just regurgitate what has gone before, if you will look at the words very carefully that are used in those "new studies". As far as it being needed to prevent rickets, the first "reason" for taking it, a USDA study on their research site that you can find today, says that a lack of it does not cause rickets, a new, circa 2004, study has found. And, a study at the Mass Gen Hospital says that a lack of phosphorous is involved in causing rickets.
Now, for some detective work. Go back to the early 1900's when rickets was very prominent... could it have been a lack of drinking milk, or drinking defective/watered-down milk, which was the prevalent product sold by the commercial dairies of the time, which would have caused the rickets. Then, when it was announced in the late 1920's or 1930's that milk that was fortified with "vitamin" D would prevent rickets, mothers started to get their children to drink milk more, and milk that had better quality control mandated by government, thus ensuring a supply of both calcium and phosphorous. Perhaps, the so-called "vitamin" D had nothing to do with the preceived decreased in rickets. But no one thought about it all. WARF certainly has not wanting to give up those millions of dollars in good benefits to its operations.
However, you and I and most people have suffered from this medical old wives' tale that "vitamin" D is good for a person. It has shutdown or hampered the operation of the VDR, causing an increase in numerous chronic illnesses of unknown cause. So simple a reason, and, right under our noses!!!
The article talked about earlier on this thread was an investigation into allergies, and how they have increased since the advent of using "vitamin" D.... in Europe, mostly.
Might there not be more REAL investigation into what the steroid, misnamed a vitamin in the 1920's, really does to the human body.... by a group not having any financial stake in promoting it, as happens so often with these "new studies"?
A Canadian reporter found out that one of the biggest promoters today of the steroid misnamed "vitamin" D, Professor R. Veight's wife is the President of a company that increased her sales some $600,000 or thereabout, the day after the Canadian federal government increased the recommended dose of daily D not too long ago.
Yes, that is correct, D2 or D3 is not a true vitamin. It is called that since the 1920's. However, it has since been termed a STEROID if you will research the product.
Giving everyone some things to think about, and research.
Wishing all wellness! Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 12606
posted
We need to put the LD50 of Vitamin D3 into more perspective.
Humans are considerably larger than mice. So, lets see what the LD50 would be for Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in the averaged size human.
Animal data indicates that the oral LD50 for Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in dogs is about 88 mg/kg, or 3,520,000 IU/kg.....That's 3.52 million IU/kg.
That would be the equivalent to a 140 pound adult taking 224,000,0000 IU's of Vitamin D3/cholecalciferol in a single dose. Yes, 224 million IU's.
Now, the average person will probably take no more than somewhere between 1,000 to 10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 per day as a supplement. And that dosage is far and I mean very far short of the LD50 dose.
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TX Lyme Mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
quote:Originally posted by emla999/Lyme: Now, the average person will probably take no more than somewhere between 1,000 to 10,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 per day as a supplement. And that dosage is far and I mean very far short of the LD50 dose.
Yes, but don't forget that Vit D is fat-soluble, meaning that it's stored in the body indefinitely. There are very strict limits on dosages of the other fat-soluble vitamins, A & K. There should be stricter limits on the dosages permitted for vit D -- except that the infamous Vit D Research Council has done such an outstanding job of promoting vit D as beneficial that no one stops to question it anymore.
The Vit D Research Council is the non-profit educational arm set up to protect the vested economic interests of those who benefit from the royalties from the sale of vit D. I consider it to be nothing but a "front organization" for this purpose, but I'll admit that I'm cynical about it.
I recognize that some of these individuals are true believers in their cause. I met one such proponent of vit D at the AAEM conf. in Phoenix last month. He was one of the invited speakers, and his required disclosure statement indicated that he had "nothing to declare."
I wish that I had quizzed him a little more when I spoke with him briefly after his talk in order to try to discern his true motives, but there wasn't a good opportunity to do that -- so I merely offered him a handout with alternate info instead, which I'm sure he promptly tossed, without so much as a glance at it.
The FDA held hearings about vit D several months ago, but I haven't heard what the outcome of those hearings were or if any decision has been made yet. Does anyone else know how that turned out?
I hate to think that the FDA might actually raise their recommendations for the daily dosage of vit D, based on the fact that there is such a strong push for this change coming from the proponents who have vested economic interests at stake. I don't have much confidence in the FDA though, based on their track record of being too closely aligned with the pharmaceutical industry.
Follow the money. You'll be able to discern the truth from the "noise" about the merits vs. the demerits of vit D if you just follow the money trail. 'Nuff said.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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kam
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
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posted
tx lyme mom...good to see you posting. i was just thinking of you the other day.
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Would you be willing to take that amount of arsenic, lead or mercury each and every day of your life as a supplement, and have it dumped into the foods that you purchase because some "Council" (probably with financial ties wiht the product) has said that it was good for you? That amount is ONLY a very small amount, as you say!
Or, would you want some very real, up-to-date research done over say five, ten, fifteen or twenty years to see what the cumulate effect will be?
I experimented on myself with the cutting out of all supplementation with D, and reduced my natural-with-D foods.... and got rid of a diagnosis of osteopenia (on the way to being osteoporosis) after about two and a half years. The doc used DEXA machine testing to diagnose me before and after. The last report said that I had increased my BMD (bone mineral density) in my left femur by 31.8%. Chest x-rays done before and after also said that I had gotten rid of some granulomatous disease, "as evidence by the depositing of calcium in the 'soft tissue of my chest area'".
FYI
Wishing all wellness!!! Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
OK, now I am intrigued. I read the warnings on the Quintox label and found this:
NOTICE TO PHYSICIAN: If serum calcium levels are elevated, treatment with Calcitonin is effective in reducing calcium to normal levels. Continue monitoring serum calcium and treat as necessary for hypercalcemia (Reference, AMA Drug Evaluations, Third Edition (1977), Chapter 16, pp. 248-251).
So I wondered what the hell Calcitonin was all about, then found this (excerpted from Wikipedia):
Treatments
Calcitonin can be used therapeutically for the treatment of hypercalcemia or osteoporosis. Oral calcitonin may have a chondroprotective role in osteoarthritis (OA), according to data in rats presented in December, 2005, at the 10th World Congress of the Osteoarthritis Research Society International (OARSI) in Boston, Massachusetts. Although calcitonin is a known antiresorptive agent, its disease-modifying effects on chondrocytes and cartilage metabolisms have not been well established until now.
This new study, however, may help to explain how calcitonin affects osteoarthritis. ``Calcitonin acts both directly on osteoclasts, resulting in inhibition of bone resorption and following attenuation of subchondral bone turnover, and directly on chondrocytes, attenuating cartilage degradation and stimulating cartilage formation,'' says researcher Morten Karsdal, MSC, PhD, of the department of pharmacology at Nordic Bioscience in Herlev, Denmark. ``Therefore, calcitonin may be a future efficacious drug for OA.''[15]
Subcutaneous injections of calcitonin in patients suffering from mania resulted in significant decreases in irritability, euphoria and hyperactivity and hence calcitonin holds promise for treating bipolar disorder.[16] However no further work on this potential application of calcitonin has been reported. _____________________________________________
My tiny brain is spinning, now juggling what I think I've learned about D; as well as calcium's role in diseases and even biofilms.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Cold Feet, why think that calcium is disease/illness causing? Why not think of the dysregulation of the calcium as part of the disease process of the soup or stew of bacteria that cause a soup or stew of symptoms (or sets of symptoms)?
If you chase the calcium affects, you will only be using current methodology of pallitive medicine. Why not think in terms of curative medicine? controlling the invaders with the innate immune system?
But being candid, I am not sure that we will ever be "cured"... meaning, getting rid of the cause, bacteria, altogether. We are continuously taking in new crops of bacteria every minute of every day. I think that "cured" will come to mean that we have reached a point of equilibrium with the bacteria that causes no apparent symptoms or sets of symptoms, thus we "feel" good.
Remember, the NIH DNA (genomic) research teams have said that we may be composed of as much as 90% bacterial cells, from the evidence that they have come across looking at DNA in our bodies.
IMHO, the better way to attack the problem of not feeling good, and controlling the huge number of bacteria and other invaders in our bodies, is to activate the innate immune system as best as we can. That seems to mean not consuming things that turn "off" the innate immune system, such as the steroid "D", and perhaps other products containing CGA (chlorogenic acid--such as coffee, most tea, eggplants and even apples). It seems to be the 125D hormone that the VDR needs to code for the products that the innate immune system needs. However, only a very NARROW range of 125D hormone is needed or tolerated. Increase the 125D hormone too much, and you wound up with problems, too.
Yes, we have some learning to do as a society, and it won't be easy. There will be people who will be affected economically, and will resist with all of their might.
Wishing all wellness!!! Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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emla999/Lyme
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
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posted
quote: Dark Vader said:
Would you be willing to take that amount of arsenic, lead or mercury each and every day of your life as a supplement, and have it dumped into the foods that you purchase because some "Council" (probably with financial ties wiht the product) has said that it was good for you?
If I was forced to swallow either a bottle filled with a hundred 400IU Vitamin D3 capsules vs swallowing a bottle of the same size filled with Mercury then I would choose to swallow the bottle filled with the Vitamin D3.
So, Dark Vader to answer your question....NO, I would not take the toxic heavy metals Arsenic, Lead and Mercury as a supplement because they are not essential to human health and they have been proven to be extremely toxic to humans even in tiny doses.
Now, on the other hand I consider Vitamin D to be an essential nutrient that is without toxicity when taken in the correct dosage and when taken in combination with other nutrients. Actually, my doctor had me to take about 15,000 IU's a day of Vitamin D3 for several weeks because according testing my 1,25-D levels were very low.
Note: On a few occasions I have taken 100,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 in a single day and once I even took 200,000 IU's in a single day with no apparent side effects.
And currently per request of my doctor I take 7,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during the winter months to keep my 1,25-D levels within the normal range. I have been taking that dosage of Vitamin D3 for a few years now and I have experienced NO ill effects from that dosage. And I have experienced nothing but benefits.
If Vitamin D3 was as toxic as Mercury then I should be dead already. But fortunately I am still alive and feeling better than I have in previous years.
****I also take the Vitamin D3 in combination with other vitamins and minerals.
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djf2005
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11449
posted
Saying vit D is akin to mercury, lead, and the like is really quite silly. IMO
-------------------- "Experience is not what happens to you; it is what you do with what happens to you."
posted
IMHO, you both missed my point.... although I didn't make the point exactly tied together.
In the long run, D is toxic. There are people who have shown this to be true. But then that would be anecdotol for your med doc, since he didn't read it in one of the approved journals. And, some people talk about labor unions.
Good luck with taking it!
Dark Vader
-------------------- Borreliosis/Th1 inflammation Posts: 9 | From Rolla, MO | Registered: Mar 2006
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TX Lyme Mom
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 3162
posted
quote:Originally posted by emla999/Lyme: [QUOTE] ... Actually, my doctor had me to take about 15,000 IU's a day of Vitamin D3 for several weeks because according testing my 1,25-D levels were very low....
And currently per request of my doctor I take 7,000 IU's of Vitamin D3 daily during the winter months to keep my 1,25-D levels within the normal range.
Emla, First Question: Which lab performed your 1,25-D measurement? Do you know if the blood sample was frozen during transport and kept frozen until it was tested?
The only labs that I know of that freeze the blood samples for 1,25-D are Quest and Clinical Pathology. Lab Corp does NOT freeze the blood samples for 1,25-D.
The reason I'm asking is that 1,25-D deteriorates rapidly unless the diagnostic lab requires that the blood sample be frozen promptly as soon as it is drawn.
Second Question: Do you know how "low" your 1,25-D actually was? Did you ask for a copy of the lab results so that you could verify your doctor's interpretation of the results?
According to the 2006 Merck Manual, the normal range for 1,25-D is between 20-45 pg/ml (or 48-108 pmol/L).
Here's a link to more info about interpretation of 1,25-D norms. It contains reference citations to studies which correlate closely with the normal range found in the Merck Manual:
posted
Dark Vader, good points earlier, but on your ``perhaps'' list: I aint giving up coffee or apples; especially since I continue to get better on two Benicar daily. Next, you'll be asking me to give up red wine!
So, all...a few tough questions. Please re-read the post from nomoremuscles, then reconsider this:
1. If vitamin D dysregulation exists, how does it manifest itself? How do you test for it? (Before you answer, read the next question!)
2. If vitamin-secosteroid-prohormone D is stored in tissue (like bugs?!), how accurate or diagnostic can a blood test really be?
3. Isn't is good to have at least nominal amounts of D in the body? That's what I've seen and read. I think you may lose a LOT of credibility if you say otherwise. E.g., the ``cave dwelling'' idea hurt some patients, while making other sideline observers wonder about the sanity of the protocol.
Don't get me wrong - the MP got me better for sure. I've searched high and low for understanding a few remaining questions, but I finally realized some of these issues have no resolution right now. And I am totally OK with that.
-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I wish the MP patients would stay where they belong: On the MP website.
So passive aggressive. Good luck getting well! And so on. Unreal and downright rude IMOP.
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TX Lyme Mom
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Member # 3162
posted
quote:Originally posted by Myco: I wish the MP patients would stay where they belong: On the MP website.
So passive aggressive. Good luck getting well! And so on. Unreal and downright rude IMOP.
This topic is NOT about the MP, as I have tried to make crystal clear from the very beginning. It is about the question of whether supplementation with vit D is beneficial or detrimental.
Please, let's try to stay focused on the main question at hand because it is important, and let's try to be civil towards one another in the process.
It's OK to agree to disagree with one another respectfully, but insults are distracting, unhelpful, and unnecessary.
Please refrain from participating if you do not have any genuine interest in this topic.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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-------------------- My biofilm film: www.whyamistillsick.com 2004 Mycoplasma Pneumonia 2006 Positive after 2 years of hell 2006-08 Marshall Protocol. Killed many bug species 2009 - Beating candida, doing better Lahey Clinic in Mass: what a racquet! Posts: 830 | From Mass. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
I am talking about DARTH VADER's passive aggressive comments.
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ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
quote:Originally posted by Dark Vader: Most people will not believe what their doctor does not understand. They leave it up to their med docs to "learn" first. So, keep listening to those med doc ideas.... and you will go downhill even further, I would wager. But do not think that a short haul making you feel good is really making you better for the long haul. Dark Vader
TO TX LYME MOM: Thank you for the posts on Vit. D. I'm very interested in this discussion and will attempt to keep up with all you offer, although I'll likely not be posting regularly. I definitely agree that the huge amounts of money involved have almost complete influence over what information, or misinformation flows freely to the public. Please keep posting!
Dark Vader - Although I understand what you're saying in the statement above and even agree with you to some extent, please do not paint us all with the same brush. There are some of us here who do massive research and don't trust anything simply because the person making the statement is an M.D. I've stood toe-to-toe with my LLMD's more than once because what they've said or tx being offered did not seem justified or convincing and insisted on certain abx and protocols, instead of the conveyor-belt of IV Rocephin that was standard tx at the time. Bottom line - Physicians, like many others, offer a service and I think it would be far more beneficial to all of us if we viewed all medical practice that way. What happens if you don't like the service? Go somewhere else.
Meanwhile, there are people like me for whom conventional tx has worked very well. I'm not disputing MP and it's validity, as I've known a couple of people who were somewhat helped by it and don't know enough people on MP, in general, to form an opinion, either pro or con. Hope it's become easier for all.
I AM SOLELY INTERESTED IN THE VITAMIN D QUESTIONS AND INFO. Would like to see us stay on this subject, as Tx Lyme Mom has expressed and not be burdened with colorful, patronizing statements about arsenic, mercury, Koch's Postulates (which we actually do know about) and King Louis of Pasteur; who I love, but wouldn't have wanted to be one of the people on whom he tried out his live rabies vaccine.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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TX Lyme Mom
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posted
Ping, Thank you for salvaging this topic. I didn't want to see it end on a bad note, especially when it's obvious that there have been some misunderstandings.
Afterall, we all wear blinders of some shade or other -- meaning that we view the world through the aura of our own perosnal experiences and the limits of our own background knowledge base.
Thus, I was able to "get it" when Dark Vader used heavy metal toxicity with mercury and lead, etc. as an analogy for toxicity from vit D -- not a very good analogy, as he admitted, but both substances are known to be "toxic."
In fact, mercury is known to be capable of triggering autoimmunity. I didn't know that until I warmed a chair at the AAEM medical conference recently and took notes about it because this little factoid was somewhat of a surprise to me.
Also, my own perspective on toxins and toxicity has been influenced greatly by Dr. Ritchie Shoemaker's books and writings and lectures, so my concept of toxins and toxicity has expanded considerably, based on what I've gleaned from his teachings.
I regret that Myco seems to have missed the essential point that Dark Vader was trying to make, so I'll copy and paste a couple of DV's quotes again below for extra emphasis, just to be sure that no one else misses his important take-home message:
"I experimented on myself with the cutting out of all supplementation with D, and reduced my natural-with-D foods.... and got rid of a diagnosis of osteopenia (on the way to being osteoporosis) after about two and a half years. The doc used DEXA machine testing to diagnose me before and after. The last report said that I had increased my BMD (bone mineral density) in my left femur by 31.8%. Chest x-rays done before and after also said that I had gotten rid of some granulomatous disease, "as evidence by the depositing of calcium in the 'soft tissue of my chest area'".
And this quote from Dark Vader, edited by myself by inserting [vit D] in brackets after the words "that product" for added clarity.
"I used that product [vit D] as was/is "recommended", and was spiraling down with more and more bad symptoms. Then, when I avoided that product, I have seen my hsCRP (high sensitivity C-Reactive protein) test score go from an average of 0.6 to 0.8 to "less than 0.1" [and the lab said that they re-did the test to be sure of the result], which the Harvard Med School and the Cleveland Clinic think is excellent."
Likewise, I understand the frustration that enthusiastic MPers such as Dark Vader and Cold Feet feel whenever friends and relatives who know them and who have witnessed their improvements aren't open-minded enough to "get it" about the dangers of vit D in our food chain.
Personally, I'm feeling the very same frustration myself right now because the only store in my small town that used to carry vit D-FREE milk has switched to another brand, making it much harder for me to satisfy Hubby's desire for D-free milk without added inconvenience. It was their best seller, too, according to the store manager, but their warehouse changed suppliers and there wasn't anything the store manager could do to accommodate me. Now, that is frustrating -- really, really frustrating.
To be honest, this was a part of my motive in starting this topic -- ie, to create more public awareness about the harm done by vit D supplementation in our food chain. Personally, I would prefer to see that mega-doses of vit D be more tightly controlled by the FDA so that it could only be sold as a prescription item, as dosages of the other two fat-soluble vitamins, A and K, are similarly controlled.
Likewise, I wanted to try to counter the bad advice coming from our LLMDs who have been "brainwashed" (my term for it) by the distributors who are pushing vit D in the form of mega-doses of fish oil capsules.
Keep in mind that I've been attending medical conferences for a very long time and I've seen the booths in the exhibit halls at these conferences, so I am keenly aware of how much pressure there is on these busy doctors to recommend various products.
Unfortunately, these busy doctors don't have enough time to spend researching for themselves whether it's a good idea to be pushing so much vit D as the panacea for all chronic ills. They hear only the "hype" which drowns out the voices of reason which caution against it.
Afterall, there's no money to be made by telling doctors NOT to urge their patients to spend money on an unnecessary supplement such as vit D -- not to mention the fact that these same doctors often sell these supplements directly to their own patients right out of their offices.
It's hard for them to be truly objective about it themselves while they are benefitting financially from these sales, also.
That's why patient education is so vitally important.
And that's also why we all need to be patient and kind with one another and try to listen to one another's personal experiences without being hypercritical of someone for taking the time to share their experiences with us.
And that's also why I have emphasized the importance of being willing to "agree to disagree" - agreeably and respectfully.
Misunderstandings are inevitable, especially in internet forums like this, when you cannot look directly at the other person in the eyes in order to pick up on his/her non-verbal clues about what s/he is trying to express.
Once again, Ping, thanks for helping to salvage this topic. It might amuse you to know that Cold Feet and Dark Vader are on friendly terms at the MP forum, even if it didn't sound like it here in this forum.
That's what happens though whenever folks are trying to grasp a new and confusing concept by teasing out those aspects of it which they don't fully comprehend. It might sound like an unfriendly argument to someone else who isn't already acquainted with them when it's really just an open and honest discussion about something perplexing which they are attempting to sort out.
We are all striving for the same goal ultimately -- namely, optimal health for every person in the group.
So, let's all take a deep breath and cut each other some slack if somebody chooses a poor analogy to try to make a point -- and try to see the humor in it whenever someone has a temporary case of "hoof in mouth" disease, especially when that person apologizes for it after recognizing the goof.
ping
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6974
posted
TX Lyme Mom:
I spoke with a couple of my friends in Houston last night who have followed your research for a few years now. Of course, we all agree to disagree when needed, but all of them state that the majority of your work has merit and one in particular says you have oodles of practical experience that should be tapped as much as possible. I hope you will afford my taking advantage of that tapping...
Before returning to the subject of Vit. D, I want to make sure that all the people reading this thread understand that I am not attempting to counter any advice coming from our LLMDs. This would only bring yet another storm of controversy we can all do without and serve to cause even more confusion regarding various treatments, etc. Each person must bear the responsibility of researching and deciding whether or not the individual path prescribed for them, or of their own choosing is valid and suits their needs. That being said, I, personally will tell you that I am opposed to mega-dosing, or even the use of the vast majority of supplements, unless I show a clear deficiency in some area (which I've yet to show) and think that supplement manufacturers are a large part of the big money hype. Yes, I use one or 2, on occasion to relieve obvious problems (TD MgCl) and others I've tried (like fish oil) I dropped within a month of starting them because of either no apparent results, or in some cases, adverse results (esp. multi-vitamins). It's a waste of money, in my singular and unimportant opinion. Back to the subject...
I've not had time to read all your links, but have read a couple. One of my friends advised that she didn't have an answer to my question with regard to a blurb in one of Dark Vader's posts above: Why is it necessary to rid your diet of foods that contain naturally occuring Vitamin D? Is this strictly a part of MP, or is it being advocated across the board? The addition of Vitamin D (& A) in milk and other items, I can understand the position you're taking, but what about the natural form(s)? If you've got a relatively short answer (or link), this would be preferable to you taking too much of your time in explanation of all the mechanisms involved, as my friends have already tried this.
I am currently trying to formulate a plan to eliminate food / drink items containing added D, but not sure if or why I should avoid it if it's a natural by-product, for lack of a better word.
Thank you in advance for your consideration.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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TX Lyme Mom - I missed nothing.
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quote:Originally posted by ping: TX Lyme Mom:
I've not had time to read all your links, but have read a couple. One of my friends advised that she didn't have an answer to my question with regard to a blurb in one of Dark Vader's posts above: Why is it necessary to rid your diet of foods that contain naturally occuring Vitamin D? Is this strictly a part of MP, or is it being advocated across the board?
The addition of Vitamin D (& A) in milk and other items, I can understand the position you're taking, but what about the natural form(s)? If you've got a relatively short answer (or link), this would be preferable to you taking too much of your time in explanation of all the mechanisms involved, as my friends have already tried this.
I am currently trying to formulate a plan to eliminate food / drink items containing added D, but not sure if or why I should avoid it if it's a natural by-product, for lack of a better word.
Thanks for your vote of confidence, Ping.
You are right. The elimination of foods that contain vit D naturally isn't necessary unless you are following the MP, and then experience shows that it makes a huge differencefor anyone who is taking Benicar at MP dosage levels -- but that's altogether another ball game.
Even folks who are still on the MP find that after a couple of years, they no longer have to be as utterly strict with their diets or with sun avoidance as they do at first. This was our daughter's experience also, and I walked every step of the way with her, so I concur that it's the effect of the Rx Benicar (an MP medication) which makes it absolutely necessary to avoid these sources of natrually occurring vit D, in addition to avoiding all sources of synthetic vit D.
As a personal example, prior to the MP our daughter had observed that she couldn't tolerate fish oils anyway and that eggs really bothered her too and so did milk. Those are the main sources of vit D in most people's diets anyhow. So, she was a good candidate for the MP from the very get-go, and after she got back the results of her vit D lab tests, then it all started to make perfect sense to us in retrospect. Otherwise, I doubt that we ever would have figured it out by ourselves.
A really good self-test for whether or not you are this exquisitely sensitive to the effects of sunlight and vit D -- without having to afford the expense of laboratory testing for it -- is whether are not you are unusually sensitive to sunlight and to bright indoor fluorescent lights or to flickering lights or to on-coming headlights from cars when driving at night. If so, then you probably have dysregulated vit D-metabolism which will show up on the baseline laboratory tests for 25-D and 1,25-D levels.
Otherwise, don't worry about this aspect of dietary vit D at all. It's a moot point. I hope this answers your question satisfactorily and isn't too confusing for you (or for anyone else).
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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ping
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quote:Originally posted by TX Lyme Mom: A really good self-test for whether or not you are this exquisitely sensitive to the effects of sunlight and vit D -- without having to afford the expense of laboratory testing for it -- is whether are not you are unusually sensitive to sunlight and to bright indoor fluorescent lights or to flickering lights or to on-coming headlights from cars when driving at night. If so, then you probably have dysregulated vit D-metabolism which will show up on the baseline laboratory tests for 25-D and 1,25-D levels.
Oh, yes ma'am. I most certainly have all these things, however, there are mitigating circumstances that might not all be related to D.
Sunlight - I'm very light skinned and have suffered more than one dangerous sunburn in my life and had several suspicious and ugly growths removed. I'm very conscience of not getting sun. Also, most of my tx was on minocycline, so that added to my avoidance. Thirdly, with respect to summertime, the heat intolerance has remained and is likely a permanent feature, even though most of my sx's are in remission. I hate the heat.
As for the rest, the fluorescent lights; not if they're placed correctly. Actually, I've asked that lights be added to my area. Lights flickering; not outside the norm, as everyone else in this place complains about this too. Headlights often bother me; my night vision is poor.
Keeping in mind that I was raised on a good, old-fashioned diet of lots of eggs with and in everything, it wouldn't surprise me if I have all sorts of toxins / dysregulations. Since we drank exclusively whole milk, I can't say what effect that might have had, however, as I got older, we went for the 1%; bad idea. I stopped eating eggs about six weeks ago and just recently stopped drinking milk altogether. If this is to have any effect, I'd ponder that it would take some time.
What I'm also trying to find out is where D is added to foods and not declared on the labels. For instance, I love full-fat, regular Dannon yogurt. Not the low fat or no fat. I've looked high and low on the tub label and don't see any additions, but I'm not a trusting person. Even cheeses, I'm suspicious that they might have been made with D+ milk products. I try to avoid any "fortified" cereal products, but still, one never knows.
If you have any suggestions of additional D+ possible food products, I'd be very appreciative if you'd share them with us. (Tapping....)
Thank you very much for your reply.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ping:
Also, most of my tx was on minocycline, so that added to my avoidance....
....What I'm also trying to find out is where D is added to foods and not declared on the labels. For instance, I love full-fat, regular Dannon yogurt. Not the low fat or no fat. I've looked high and low on the tub label and don't see any additions, but I'm not a trusting person. Even cheeses, I'm suspicious that they might have been made with D+ milk products. I try to avoid any "fortified" cereal products, but still, one never knows.
If you have any suggestions of additional D+ possible food products, I'd be very appreciative if you'd share them with us. [QUOTE]
Ping, Whenever vit D is added to foods, the FDA requires that it must be indicated on the label, so you don't have very much to worry about in this regard.
Mushrooms are naturally high in a precursor to Vit D2, and some people are sensitive to mushrooms for that reason, but these people are probably going to be avoiding mushrooms anyway, knowing that mushrooms are a problem for them.
Not all cereals are fortified with vit D though. Kashi brand is good because their cereals are all whole grains, so there is no need to add any supplemental vitamins to any of them.
I can't really think of anything else. The best source for this kind of dietary info is at the MP-KB website and also in the FAQs at the MP forum.
Pertaining to your comment about having taken lots of minocycline though, believe it or not, this could be a factor for you -- as it was for our daughter, too, although it took several years before someone posted the answer to that conundrum. I cannot remember the explanation well enough myself to be able to tell someone else about it, so I'll have to give you the link to the info instead.
Here's the pertinent quote from the link above, but please don't quiz me about it if you don't understand it because I'd hate to misinterpret it for you.
"Another explanation is that the MP itself, through activation of the Pregnane X Nuclear Receptor (PXR) is contributing to higher than normal levels of vitamin D." "Marshall Protocol patients take minocycline (Bacteriostatic antibiotic used by Marshall Protocol patients), which appears to bind the PXR. A similar action may be generated by olmesartan (Benicar)."
I need to study/review the info about the role of the PXR in immunity, but I have trouble motivating myself to get that deep into the science of it, to be quite honest -- because there are so many other topics and concepts that are more interesting to me personally, so I simply haven't bothered to master this concept about the PXR nuclear receptor yet.
I suspect that this concept about minocycline's binding effect on the PXR could perhaps explain why some patients who take a whole lot of minocycline can develop "drug-induced lupus" -- which our daughter did develop, BTW, but it was transient and it reversed itself naturally just as soon as she discontinued the mino, thank goodness.
Therefore, if you are having too many really troubling symptoms, especially if you are still taking minocycline, then you might want to ask for a lupus antibody panel, just to be on the safe side. If it's positive, the solution to the problem is relatively simple -- stop the minocycline.
Even after that event, our daughter was still able to take minocycline successfully again later when she began the MP though. The MP dosages of the antibiotics are much lower, and also the antibiotics are pulsed every other day, so the risk of this kind of complication from taking minocycline for MP patients is relatively trivial and inconsequential, if not altogether non-existent.
Posts: 4563 | From TX | Registered: Sep 2002
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TX Lyme Mom,
Your timing couldn't have been better. I was just about to log out after posting to the Dr. Oz thread.... Subject change.
FYI: I've been completely off abx for about 2 years now and am well aware of the power of minocycline. My close circle of "mino friends" and I all had induced lupus and took us anywhere from 2 months to a year to rid ourselves of it. All of us were indeed able to take minocycline again, but not at the higher doses. With regard to sunlight, we are all wary of it to this day, whether in tx or not.
I can't help but wonder if there's a catch to the label reporting of Vit D, even though law requires it. I'm suspicious of all dairy or other items I find that list "Grade A Milk" as a part of the product. Seems that from what I can tell, by law, Grade A Milk is fortified with Vit's A&D, else it's not classified as Grade A. Do you find this to be the case? What's interesting about the Dannon Yogurt is that it lists Grade A as it's source, but in the ingredients, it lists protein, calcium, Vit A at 4%, but no Vit D. There are several reasons that this could be omitted, but would legally still be covered with the Grade A rating. Hmm. Checking out the various butters to see if they read the same way.
Mushrooms, eh? Well, I like them, but not often; they don't bother me, just too expensive for our budget. Didn't know about the Kashi cereal. Not too worried about many other foods at this point other than dairy. I think this would be the biggest sticking point for me.
Thank you kindly for all the info. Have looked at the MP site on occasion, will have to look again. I could see where it was so difficult for pts to follow the protocol and why only a very few that I know of (at the time) made it through. You must have worked very hard on your daughters behalf.
Thanks again and please post often.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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TX Lyme Mom,
P.S. A friend and I were just talking about the link that you just happened to attach, re: minocycline and D levels. This is exactly what we think is going on in our particular cases. This said, we are all trying to lower the oral intake of D in an effort to help our bodies recover post-treatment.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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Ping, One more potential problem that you might want to look into as an "after effect" of Lyme disease -- I hate the term "post-Lyme" -- is that I'm convinced that chronic Lyme can trigger latent celiac disease (or gluten intolerance) in those persons who are genetically predisposed to it, which is a significant percent of the American population.
I've posted about the reasons why under a number of other topics if you do a search for my recent posts, but I'll offer just a brief hint about it here. It has to do with the effect of Bb's LMW fat-soluble toxin and how this toxin could perhaps interfere with the "tight junctions" in the intestinal mucosa, thereby leading to "leaky gut" -- which in turn sets off the immunological responses which activate latent celiac disease, causing full-blown celiac disease.
I don't want to distract from the main theme of this topic about vit D by expounding on celiac and gluten intolerance too much, other than just this little hint about it.
That's why I am suggesting that you do a search for my recent posts -- because the symptoms of "neuro-celiac" (my term) and "neuro-Lyme" -- and perhaps even "post Lyme" also -- are so similar that it's hard to tell when one disease process stops and the next one starts.
The only recognized connection between celiac and vit D levels, however, is that celiac causes malabsorption of fats, and vit D is a fat-soluble vitamin, so it's easy to see how vit D levels might be out of whack in a person whose colon isn't reabsorbing fats properly.
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Cass A
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Well, just to add another note, I have a friend who has been trumpeting Vit D for some time.
In 2003, experiencing some strange symptoms and having gotten good results from another recommendation he made (zinc), I tried increasing my D using supplements.
Well, I just got more things going wrong!!
It took finding out I had Lyme and then searching for different protocols that led me to the Marshall Protocol site.
I stopped taking extra D, got my 1,25 D and 25 D tested, started wearing the NoIR glasses, and limited my sun exposure (some). Things got better.
The LLMD I went to, hoping to get onto the MP, stated he had been an early adopter, but now had only two or three people on the MP. That was about 2 years ago. Last time I saw him, he said that the MP was now more "user friendly," and might be the right thing for me!
I haven't had the "cojones" to do the full MP. Currently, I'm taking the Allergie-Immun drops. However, I have continued to restrict my intake of Vit-D foods (no eggs or milk, for example).
Once done with Allergie-Immun, I'll be looking at any and all protocols in a new unit of time. The MP is still at or near the top of my "potentials" list.
And, I will NEVER supplement with Vit. D again. Ever.
Best,
Cass A
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TX Lyme Mom,
Thanks for the additional information on Celiac and food sensitivities. You're correct in your assessment of the challenges with this. My friends and I all have this malady to some degree. One in particular reacts badly if she even touches flour that might have been left on a kitchen counter after cooking. My theory is that it waffs particles into the air which she's likely inhaling and / or touching eyes, nose, mouth unaware.
I'm fortunate in that I've found with the end of abx tx and the fact that I've avoided and still avoid muddying the waters (too many/much supps and other items), my health is slowly improving. Considering my age and the level of infection when I began tx, my former LLMD says it's rather remarkable. There are a few things such as the elimination of the addition of oral Vit D that I'm hoping will help raise and stabilize my recovery at it's most optimum level.
Thanks once again for your informative response.
-------------------- ping "We are more than containers for Lyme" Posts: 1302 | From Back in TX again | Registered: Mar 2005
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There is compounding research that there needs to more Vitamin D3 added to the average person. Too many people with cancer and chronic illnesses have low Vitamin D3 levels. I dont understand why so many people try to argue with science? If Vitamin D levels need to be 60-80, then why do we argue?
For example...there is a lot of research about Garlic. Societies that take garlic or eat garlic have almost a 80% less chance of getting colon cancer. People that increase their intake of Reservatol have tripled their chances of resisting heart disease. So...why do we argue with them.
The marshall protocol says stay out of the sun....no vitamin d? Their is research behind this...but I know NO ONE besides Dr Marshall who has ever been cured?
We can all guess about things and we all have the right to what we want to believe. Folk remedies and lack of testing and clinical trials are not a good way to go. I tried every herb on the planet and very high doses...with a high alkaline diet, but that didnt get me HALF as far as the Biaxin and Plaquenil combo. I am 95% now and feel good. I think Vitamin D3 should be taken and levels should stay stable...there is too much research for that. If you dont want the flu...was your hands, get good sleep, take garlic, vitamin D3, probiotics and eat well. Green tea is great too and the chances of you getting it is slim. Later
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TX Lyme Mom
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quote:Originally posted by bears1985: If Vitamin D levels need to be 60-80, then why do we argue?
If you dont want the flu...was your hands, get good sleep, take garlic, vitamin D3, probiotics and eat well.
It is NOT agreed that vit D levels need to be as high as you stated. That's the whole point of this discussion.
Here's a PubMed abstract to consider regarding vit D to prevent the flu:
J Nutr. 2009 Aug;139(8):1588-94. Epub 2009 Jun 23.
Fish oil-fed mice have impaired resistance to influenza infection.
Schwerbrock NM, Karlsson EA, Shi Q, Sheridan PA, Beck MA.
Department of Nutrition, The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, Chapel Hill, NC 27599, USA.
Dietary fish oils, rich in (n-3) PUFA, including eicosapentaenoic acid and docosahexaenoic acid, have been shown to have antiinflammatory properties. Although the antiinflammatory properties of fish oil may be beneficial during a chronic inflammatory illness, the same antiinflammatory properties can suppress the inflammatory responses necessary to combat acute viral infection. Given that (n-3) fatty acid-rich fish oil supplementation is on the rise and with the increasing threat of an influenza pandemic, we tested the effect of fish oil feeding for 2 wk on the immune response to influenza virus infection. Male C57BL/6 mice fed either a menhaden fish oil/corn oil diet (4 g fish oil:1 g corn oil, wt:wt at 5 g/100 g diet) or a control corn oil diet were infected with influenza A/PuertoRico/8/34 and analyzed for lung pathology and immune function. Although fish oil-fed mice had lower lung inflammation compared with controls, fish oil feeding also resulted in a 40% higher mortality rate, a 70% higher lung viral load at d 7 post infection, and a prolonged recovery period following infection. Although splenic natural killer (NK) cell activity was suppressed in fish oil-fed mice, lung NK activity was not affected. Additionally, lungs of infected fish oil-fed mice had significantly fewer CD8+ T cells and decreased mRNA expression of macrophage inflammatory protein-1-alpha, tumor necrosis factor-alpha, and interleukin-6. These results suggest that the antiinflammatory properties of fish oil feeding can alter the immune response to influenza infection, resulting in increased morbidity and mortality.
PMID: 19549756 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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emla999/Lyme
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That fish oil study has essentially nothing to do with Vitamin D.
Why do I say that?? Because fish oil contains very little Vitamin D.
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Subject change.
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