SForsgren
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posted
I think that under the care of a doctor, it may make sense in some cases to do a higher dose. That said, it is very important to monitor it closely and will likely release metals that the doctor needs to be ready for. So, though in some cases, 200mg of elemental zinc might be used, it would be for only a few months and only under close observation.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I can see that ( possibly in some cases) but only not if the practioners are blindly prescribing 125 mg of zinc in elemental form for a child and 250 for an adult while thinking they are following the KPU protocol.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I have a book written in 99 called Depression Free Naturally by Joan Mathews Larson This is before it was connected with chronic illness,lyme etc. The dose there is 25 mg of zink picolinate 3 X a day.I feel there is lots of good info in the book although not all about Pyrroluria but has the best symptom list I have seen and whole list of supps.
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I have that book, Healing. You mentioned it on another thread and I purchased it.
She does list as you say up to 75 mg zinc. She also has really high numbers for B6 .. 250 mg or until dream occurs. 50 mg for p5p. She has the manganese at 10 mg X2 a day.
I am concerned about B6 (just to be aware) because according to Dr. AY it produces (somehow) the same toxin that Bb does.. quinolinic acid. Also those of us with the CBS upregulations may not handle B6 well in large doses. My daugher also has a cbs upregulation so we have to be aware of that for her as well.
I see where Dr. K also says that some cannot handle the B6 and some cannot handle the p5p.
Dr. AY also has an interesting perspective on manganese.. I had never heard.. it can accumulate in some tissues with lymies.. it can also be depleted b/c Bb uses it and it feeds it (as Dr. K has said in the past)and it is also neurotoxic (read that elsewhere and also found it listed as a heavy metal). She mentioned getting manganese from black walnut and deal with parasites at the same time. I guess that would work for some people.. not sure there is enough manganese there for folks who need higher amounts. But a good idea.
I read somewhere that zinc can bring out a virus (not sure if it was a herpes virus..) that causes nerve problems. I wonder if that happened in your case.
Too little zinc and copper for parkinsons and too much for parkinsons.
one way to scare oneself out of a protocol.:-)
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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posted
I am doing way smaller dose's of all the other supps she lists in the book and down to 45 Zink. My friend a non lymie was on the protocol by this book and at first she felt really good,the best in her life and then took a nose dive emotionally and physically. She then quit. She never did the test and did it on her own. Hard to know what is happening in my case.I know more than on virus has lifted its head.All I know is the last 2 weeks have been not fun.Time will tell.
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
So, if my bottle says this (Twinlab chelated zinc):
... there really isn't any way to be sure if the 50 mg refers to `elemental zinc' without asking the company directly, right?
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
Truthfinder, it is likely ELEMENTAL. It seems that in the US that is the way it is done - though that does not seem to be the international standard.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Truthfinder
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Thanks, Scott. I dropped an email to Twinlab and asked. No response yet.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
I think the RDA goes by elemental dosage. 15 mg of elemental zinc is 100% RDA, so any supplement listing mg by RDA % would be measuring elemental. So 50 would be... I cant do the math right now.. 333% (?) on the bottle and would be measuring the elemental amount. My Thorne zinc picolinate 30 mg is 200% RDA. 15 is 100% RDA..
The CORE supplement is 27 mg elemental and lists that as 180% of RDA if memory serves me there.
I have seen bottles list the mg of the source of the elemental but will also then list the elemental as RDA %. The source is usually in parenthesis.
(trying to clarify.. list the source as zinc picolinate for esample but list the mg as elemental. if they list the source (salt for zinc) in mg, it is usually in parenthesis and right under or next to the source name of the supplement. The elemental is listed with the RDA %)
I think Scott is right. Most if not all US supps go by RDA, so elemental.
I think this may be different in Europe and could explain the confusion..
posted
Truthfinder,glad you popped in here.Keep us posted what they say.Thanks Scott and R for hanging in here with this and working on getting it figured out.And Scott I need to say again I am very grateful that you put this out to the lyme community.
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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Truthfinder
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posted
It appears that Scott and R62 are correct.
Twinlab said that their labels on minerals will always list the ELEMENTAL amount in milligrams.
Yes, Healing, I'm grateful that this was clarified here for those of us interested!
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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heiwalove
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posted
littlelymie (hi!) -- i was on a low dose of Core for quite a long time - about five weeks - before i experienced noticeable heavy metal dumping. and it was BAD. of course i'm not saying that will be everyone's experience, but it could take awhile for the metals to start moving. i thought i felt better on the Core at first, too. little did i know. :/
SForsgren
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posted
That's the expected course - the metals will come - they will dump. This protocol is not easy - be ready. Doing it without a doctor is an unnecessary risk that may lead to problems.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
Shoot I just talked to my doctor and they said my KPU test results were only at 6.7 They are confused as well because my other tests seem to make them think I would have it. Like low alkaline phosphatase, high MCV and MCH, low taurine.
Does anyone know how reliable that test is? I had it done at vitamin diagnostics.
Posts: 499 | From Indiana | Registered: Oct 2007
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GiGi
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posted
Heiwalove, doing KPU without first doing AI is not something I would do. You are starting to mobilize a mountain of metals that have no place to go because most likely, like everyone with Lyme who has done the AI test, has metal and some serious chemical allergies, plus a bunch of others. What will the body do with these toxic substances if the immune system does not recognize them as toxic because your body reacts allergic to them?
My husband is on KPU now and it is a breeze to do. Metals are moving, but with little symptomatic and certainly not a protocol that I would call difficult. All that because we made AI the priority. We are at bottle #10, so major problems have been cleared, i.e. wheat, soy, all foods, toxic heavy metals (mercury, lead, nickle, copper, etc.) all mucor, fungi and mold, a huge number of chemical allergies, all the emotional and inherited traumas, nightmares, inherited miasms,have been cleared. The body is able to regulate again.
You may want to give this some thought. www.allergie-immun.de (click on English). Or read the Allergie Immun Thread here on LN.
I take 2 CORE. My hairtest showed low zinc and mediocre phosphorus. All that is involved in the heme problem. I have no negative reactions to CORE. In fact, I think it makes the metal flow a lot easier. All it needs is the different grabbers to bind. I tensor test for these. Just the fact of having Lyme a number of years makes it pretty clear that KPU was and is a factor. But to me clearing the dysregulations comes before everything else. Doing biophotons for Lyme in Germany (the way it was done) was the worst thing to do because it simply ignores the metal and chemical and environmental toxicities that are at the very base of Lyme. Live and learn. Putting the cart before the horse when the horse has lost its way is wrong. I feel the same way about KPU when I hear of the
I can take DMSA, cilantro, NDF, and the different chlorella forms together, with a Kelatox suppositoriy the same evening, without any great discomfort. Before AI, these together would have blocked my system and wiped me out. Now I hardly know it's there.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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posted
How large are the CORE capsules? What about Depyrrol? I have difficulty swallowing pills.
Posts: 88 | From Toronto | Registered: Nov 2009
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posted
Hi Zombie, I am waiting to get my Core. Soooo not sure the size. I have heard peeps r cutting them in half to get smaller dose. Maybe that will help you.I am feeling better since my Md dropped my zink dose. At least I don't feel like I am dying anymore.Joyce
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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SForsgren
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posted
Not sure how you would cut Core in half as I thought it was a capsule. You might be able to open the capsules and just take the powder.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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GiGi
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posted
Zombie, the 00 size of a mag capsule is 7/8 "long; the Core is 5/8" long and much smaller diameter, probably veg cap size "0". A small capsule. Depyrrol Basic is the small size "0" also. Capsule can be opened and taken halfed in liquid.
At this time, I do not take CORE any longer at this point (took it about three days). The AI at the present time seems to result in enough metal/neurotoxin outflow for me personally and enough I want to deal with. Same for my husband. So please take AI effects into consideration, once you reach that point in that therapy. I definitely got a superb hair test result due to AI, without any CORE or Depyrrol.
A "normal" dose of CORE is 4 caosules. One of the reasons it was done this way, so people can take smaller amounts more easily, if they need to.
Weigh all very carefully, especially without being done with AI.
When it comes to metal detox, as far as body having to deal with the outflow, more is not better. Easy does it. Crashing is not healing.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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GiGi, it sounds more and more like KPU protocol may not be needed once the full course of Allergie-Immun therapy has been completed...
I am on round #7 of AI (not sure how many more I will need, possibly many) and simply researching KPU to see if it might be an option for me down the road.
Posts: 88 | From Toronto | Registered: Nov 2009
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GiGi
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posted
Zombi, that's a good approach. Nothing is gained by hurrying. Our body has and runs by its own clock. It will do what it needs to do when it is good and ready.
Hoping for a Healthy New Year for you, Zombie, and all who so desperately need it.
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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sixgoofykids
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posted
KPU is not *only* for detoxing. It's correcting a deficiency of nutrients. You do detox when you correct this deficiency.
I don't know much about how it fits with AI, but they are two different things. Perhaps AI might help the body correct what is causing the deficiency, but that I do not know.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Even if AI helps the body correct the reason or reasons for deficiency caused by dysregualtion even KPU. There could be nutritional holes that need filling I would think? Possibly not as much because the holes are not "leaking" or "leaking" as much. ??
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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SForsgren
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I see AI and KPU as two different things. KPU is supplying minerals and other nutrients that the body is deficient in - and has been for years. I agree that if one has started AI and dealt with metals using AI, the KPU treatment may be less difficult when the metals start to be released. However, I'm not yet clear that AI would eliminate the need for KPU and replacement of missing nutrients. I have been doing AI for almost a year and have been doing KPU for about 9 months. I wish I had done a bit more AI first in hopes that it may have made KPU easier than it was, but I do not think AI would eliminate the need for it.
Just my opinion.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I don't know, it's just a theory I have at this point.
Lightparfait may provide us with an answer soon.
She tested very + for KPU but is holding off on doing the protocol until she completes AI, at which point she will retest for KPU.
Thanks for the New Year wishes, GiGi! A Happy, Healthy New Year to all!!!
Posts: 88 | From Toronto | Registered: Nov 2009
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GiGi
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posted
To remedy the leaky gut situation and thereby correct absorption problems caused by a huge range of dysfunctions may take 1-2 years. Holes in the gut! Enzyme production. Myelin damage. Dentrite growth. Detoxing. Detoxing always leaves a mark in how one feels. Some may have quick results. Some will take time. With either therapy. Sticking to the rules of AI is important. Since AI can speak plain German with me, I have been told more than once "do not add more to the pile we are in the process trying to remove".
Take care.
Posts: 9834 | From Washington State | Registered: Oct 2000
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Cass A
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posted
I wish I did not have to be on the KPU nutrients while on the Allergie-Immun drops!
However, one effect of Lyme or its treatment is that I now get seizures. I can tell when one is likely to occur by how my body feels.
By utilizing the supplements in an article I found here at Lymenet on treating seizures without pharmaceuticals, I'm able to keep the seizures from happening.
What are the supplements? Zinc, B-6 (200-600 mg a day!), Taurine, magnesium, copper, niacin, B complex. Sound familiar???
When I was in communication with AI about these, Herr G. wanted me to quit them. However, when I told him I needed them to prevent seizures, he emailed me back to continue if I felt they were vital, which I do.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Dear Cass, so glad to see the supps r helping u. Blessings to u getting better and better. KPU is big part of the healing for many of us.I have no worries about doing KPU and AI together.Happy 1010 to you Joyce
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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