When I think alternative, I think of rife, vibrations, etc. My original thought on separating out the two (traditional and alternative) was because as I referred new people here, well.... instead of repeating it, here's what i said in the original thread:
*****************************
This has been such an interesting thread. I can see both sides, if you want to divide it like that. Maybe there are more than two sides, since we have heard from those who believe in vibrational healing and the like, some who are believers in hormone therapy (if I have it correct), others who are skeptics and are curious, and some who just flat out believe the vibrational thing is a ripoff.
Where my interest mainly lies is that I use Lymenet to educate people. When I run into someone and the topic of my lyme disease (or theirs) comes up, I try to give them a very brief overview of what I've learned. I always refer them to lymenet and Dr. B's guidelines, and then to the bulletin boards for more insight. I'm sure everyone else here does the same thing.

I have a very hard time establishing the credibility with those I run into in that:
1. most general practitioners don't recognize lyme
2. most non-igenex and non-MDL testing is a crap shoot, at best,
3. That 2 weeks of abx therapy, even if you get that, is insufficient
4. That probably about half of us NEVER had a bulls eye rash,
5. etc., etc., etc. you get the picture.

So I refer them here to get the details. Especially Dr. B's guidelines.

I worry that if they come here, and the first thing they see under medical is a thread on "how I got cured from lyme disease", they may look at that and go no further, and just say, well, cindy is a whacko and so are all these people here.

Now wait, don't flame me yet!! If someone is new to lyme and is sick, afraid, broke, and has very little physical and mental resources, they may stop at just that first thread! Most of us who have been here a while will read almost everything, or realize that there are many alternative or non-abx modalities being looked into here. But I think sometimes these things could really scare away newbies.

I'm wondering if we should have a place that's labeled "alternative or complimentary" or whatever is agreeable to those who might like to post and read there. Maybe for things outside the scope of Dr. B's guidelines. I don't think it would hurt to have more headings. With so much being lumped under Medical, the threads realy fly by. I'd love to see one, too, labeled Nutirition and Diet Therapy. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Cindy

*************************************

[This message has been edited by cindy_leigh (edited 13 February 2004).]

When spring arrives, I'll bet that thing will slow down again to a dull roar once more.

Let's take a wait and see approach. I'd hate for us to make a too hasty decision and then regret later that we did something that wasn't a good idea or not really necessary.

There are definitely disadvantages to splitting it because I tend to think of it as "adjunctive" or "complementary" or "integrative" therapy, instead of using the term "alternative".

I believe that a blended approach to therapy is going to be the way out of this quagmire, so I prefer keeping the Medical Forum just the way it is. If there's a topic that bores me or that I don't have time for as a top priority, then I simply don't bother to click on it.

Just because I responded to this topic, please do NOT put my vote in the "yea" column. I say table it for the time being, but if push comes to shove, then please count my vote as a "nay" for the present moment.

If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

I don't know a single person that got well from this disease on what most call alternative treatment.

The few that have improved and gotten well as far as I can ascertain have employed everything that is available. Let them speak.

In my mind there is no sense in separating this. In fact, the longer Lyme is becoming more of a factor to many more people, the more we will find that all forms of treatment have to be applied if we want to get results.

You can start with lymph drainage and colon cleansers. Do you want to tell me that once the milk thistle doesn't work for someone
(which may be part of Dr. B's recommendation - I forgot), then we have to move to the Complementary section in order to suggest other remedies.

If someone has a teeth problem/ache/pain, you have to say, come on overhere and listen to me here, I may have a suggestion for you under Complementary.

I think we ought to leave it as is. It seems to be working fine. Since I have been posting on this board since 2000, I have seen the contributing population change at least 4 times. Every time I came back from a longer absence/vacation, I found an almost totally new list of names. Is the rest just lurking? Who is complaining?

If there is a lot of material to read; if the posts are not identified properly as being interesting to a particular person, scroll down and go to what catches your eye. What is the problem?

I am only here on this board because I promised myself when I would be well to help point out some of the missing links to this whole Lyme Disease treatment. If you can name me anyone who is back to normal that has not utilized any complementary treatments, then I would say yes, it makes sense to split it up.

For me the subject is ad acta. Hopefully you can make up your mind soon and get on with the real thing.

Take care.

I like the idea of using the "generally accepted practices" of most LLMD's as a marker for the two.

and WHY?!

I think we'd all loose in that situation.

We need as broad a scope as we can get.

And to remember we all have the same goal, all overcoming similar obstacles.. and can gain invaluable gifts from our different perspectives and therapies. Be inspired ro look at all approaches.

Know that we do not know..

Mo

The few that have improved and gotten well as far as I can ascertain have employed everything that is available."

Ok, here's a data point for you: I've gotten well without the 'complementary' side, as long as we agree that eating yogurt isn't alternative.

(yes, Gigi, I know you qualified the statement by saying you don't know of any - but now you do)

Not that I don't see the value in those things, I do. But they aren't universally necessary.

You see, everybody's case is different. So blanket statements like that are never really valid, any more than saying anyone can get well with only antibiotics.

Dan

It would be so wonderful for all the world if everyone were that lucky to cure Lyme Disease with abx and yoghurt. Are you the exception? Just think, we wouldn't need this board, and I would have a lot more playtime!

In fact, that's what I will do right now, hoping that you guys can come up with the right decision that is for the benefit of those seeking help.

By the way, someone above asked what's ART. It stands for Autonomic Response Testing.
I just recently discovered a great explanation of it on www.nihadc.com/ART. Just go on that site and follow the instructions to get from a short explanation to the more extended explanation of a couple of pages. It is really a good run-down of this superb diagnostic and treatment tool that my doctor developed over many years. Have a look.

Take care.

I am LymeBrat's husband.

I occasionally come here looking for info about lyme disease as my wife and 2 children all have it.

I think dividing the medical forum into "Alternative and Mainstream" would be very beneficial for those of us who are either new to lyme disease or come here occasionally looking for help.

I know I get so overwhelmed when I am looking for information and there are posts about all these different alternative treatments, machines etc. It is very confusing.

My opinion.

quote:

---

Originally posted by lymebrat:
I think dividing the medical forum into "Alternative and Mainstream" would be very beneficial for those of us who are either new to lyme disease or come here occasionally looking for help.

I know I get so overwhelmed when I am looking for information and there are posts about all these different alternative treatments, machines etc. It is very confusing.

---

Dave,
I must admit that your comment is the most convincing of all in favor of Trout's Initiative.

I'd be willing to change my vote from Nay to Yea, if and only if, we can agree to allow occasional comments as responses to topics into either forum without getting our feathers too ruffled over it.

In other words, topic headings could be segregated into two separate forums, but there should be wide latitude allowed about being able to suggest something complementary as supportive therapy under the "mainly abx" forum, and vice versa.

By that I mean that mention of abx in our replies under various alternative topic headings, whenever appropriate -- such as not taking magnesium together with certain abx because it binds them and inhibits their absorption. See what I mean?

Afterall, if a topic is getting too much attention in the wrong forum so that it is distracting to the purpose of that forum, then the Moderators are free to move it where it belongs.

The important thing would be to be considerate and polite and tactful and so forth, and NOT get riled up if someone feels the need to respond to an idea in one forum with a suggestion that applies to the main topic being discussed, whether abx-related or whether mainly alternative.

This suggestion for two forums could be done on a trial basis. Then, if the idea doesn't work out well or causes too much arguing over minor breaches, then we could agree to let things go back to the way they are right now.

Ultimately, the Moderators should have the last say about what's do-able and what's in the best interest of everyone here at LymeNet.

I vote in favor of a split.

For those who say they are "too busy" to read more than one section consider the math :

Currently let's say there are 20 posts in medical...

IF they are split - say 12 medical and 8 alternative - that's still 20 posts total either way.

Plus, as I see it (IMHO) if you are "too busy" to click a few button to swith over, this would help you focus on the area that bests fits you!

Above all, I agree, r*e*s*p*e*c*t for all!!!!!!!

I, too, use this site to refer people who want to learn about what my whole family is going through. I also BEG sick, skeptical people to consider lyme as their diagnosis and check lymenet out.

BUT, lately, I've stopped giving out the site address because of these few, but infamous, "controversial" threads and "debates". One person who I urged to read lymenet was apalled by the bad pregnancy thread 6 months ago. Today she is still not considering lyme.

Here is my opinion for a simple change:

I think we need to keep medical as it is, but instead, add a NEW MEMBER section. This section could be right up top above Medical and state, as its description under the heading, something like..."for FAQ about Lyme Disease and links for new members".

I think new lurkers or new members would be tempted to click on this first, and BAM!, lymenet could provide a whole world of information and links, sort of like a huge "Tincups Links for New Members" (plus all the ones that others have compiled) except that it would be permanent, always at the top under NEW MEMBERS.

One wouldn't be able to post in this section, just give out great information that new members want. It should also encourages newbies to browse the other forums, teach them how to search old posts, how to utilize the Seeking a Doctor forum, and invite them to introduce themselves and post whenever they want. This would resemble sort of a generic "welcome", similar to the ones that so many of you are good at writing. Maybe... also include a definition of terms we use, a description of all the different topics that we discuss (antibiotics, diagnosis, HBOT, metal toxicity, candida, you get the idea). Also the symptoms list, Dr. B.'s guidelines, etc...

This is suggested as a way of funneling the new lookers through a basic education, if you will, and then to, of course, encourage newbies to click on any of the other forums to introduce themselves, post questions, respond to a question...

I just remember when I first started lurking here and I clicked right on medical, and the headings were like Greek to me!(ie: HBOT threads, ART, drug names galore, etc) NOW of course I know exactly what to click on and what to SOB, but when I needed basic information quickly it took several days to weed through what was not important to me at the time. Tincup's links for new members is great, but if it's not up on the first two pages at all times, I imagine new members don't find it unless they actually make a post and someone replies. This way, newbie info. will always be there plain as day.

Also, there are so many new folks looking and posting, often posting similar first posts (ie: "does this sound like lyme?" "what does my test mean?", "help me!!!", and so on. It would be nice to have a permanent place, easy for newbies to see, that they can immediately go to first. I see so many of you lovingly "reinventing the wheel" for each new member and, though it's nice to make it personal for each new poster, this must take a lot of energy out of many of you, listing the same great links each time, explaining the same thing over and over, etc.

Maybe by the time they wade through all the fantastic information in a New Member section, the site will definately ooze credibility right from the get-go for them. I remember almost not giving this site a second look because the first whole page in medical I saw was gobity-gook to my lyme-ignorant, foggy brain. It was just coincidence, of course, (and my bad luck ) that the day I became a new member, most of the threads were about "alternative" treatments in which I just wasn't interested...

Well, I probably lost most of you with this long-winded idea. Trout, sorry, it's late; mine's not very well thought out, or in condensed form, but I believe it'll lighten the load of those who give so much time answering the call of the new members and increase credibility.

Consider it...

I would like to acknowledge your well thought out reply.
IMO...this is the most important need to be filled for LymeNet.

Many here do work countless hours on board and behind the scenes in order to help new members with questions, doc referrals, and to simply offer much needed support.

Yes, the same information is given time and again, and it does at times become overwhelming, especially when there are so many new members showing up all at once or when those that usually fill this welcoming need are ill themselves.

Busy Bees Behind the Scenes: http://flash.lymenet.org/ubb/Forum1/HTML/022697.html
My fear is that some new members may slip through the cracks despite our best efforts to reach them all...or as you and others have mentioned, they may not even post at all when faced with the confusion of too many subject headings that are not understood or too many posts that contain needless bickering.

I too remember very well my first time here, and the feeling of not even being sure of what questions to even ask. Fortunately, for me, I was welcomed with open arms right away. I have tried since then to remember to pass that feeling on to others that I encounter, and I know that many here maintain that same philosophy.

With this in mind, a new member page as an introduction only, would be of great value. I would still like to see everyone post in the same forums already so generously provided for us at this time...this is how we learn from one another...by immersion.

I just wanted you to know that whether we see any change or not from this discussion, it is nice that you have acknowledged the hard work and dedication of so many of our members here...and I also appreciate your concern for the welfare of the new members as well.

Thank you!

Thus, I'm changing my vote once more. First, it was Nay, then a qualified "Yea-maybe", but now I'm back to the idea that a special section dedicated just to the special needs of New Members would be great.

That would probably make it unnecessary to separate the Medical Forum into two parts.

One other suggestion is that "repeat offenders" who continue to violate The Rules should be disqualified from the privilege of posting -- either temporarily, while they sit on the sidelines and reflect on their mistakes, or permanently.

It doesn't matter how much valuable information someone has to offer if the net effect of his/her presence on the board is detrimental to the spirit of comfort and support necessary for healing.

LymeNet needs to be preserved as a "Safe Sanctuary for Healing" and persons who can't seem to remember how to spell the little four letter word T-A-C-T need to be excluded from the discussions by the Moderators.

I haven't been following those threads, so I have no idea who these offenders are right now. All I know is that TroutScout was pretty upset by one of them, and if anyone offends my good buddy TroutScout, then I'm offended too.

I'm not talking about the person who flames someone in a brief moment of Lyme rage or fog and then who promptly apologizes and edits him/herself. I'm talking only about member(s) who do not learn from their mistakes and who do not apologize when they have hurt someone's feelings -- whether through an unintentional misunderstanding or whether through a thoughtless comment. They deserve a chance to apologize and/or to clarify their comments and should NOT be excluded for such mistakes.

If the repeat offenders who violate either the letter or the spirit of The Rules were to be excluded from participation indefinitely or permanently, then the job of the Moderators would be much easier, and the atmosphere at LymeNet would be more welcoming to lurkers and to newbies.

Again, let me state that I have no idea who these offending individuals are because I simply haven't been clicking on all of the topics, so I'm oblivious to what all the recent ruckus was about which got TroutScout so peeved.

Here's the link to TroutScout's topic about his hurt feelings, for the sake of anyone who's confused over what I'm talking about to here. His topic was about another topic which had disturbed him, but for the life of me, I never could figure out which topic it was. (I gave up trying to guess which one because it seemed to be a waste of valuable time.)

Medical-Conventional Forum....
Newbie: Hi I'm new and I'm having tons of problems with (fill in the blank). Anybody have any suggestions?
Member: Try "such and such". There are other things you can try too. Go to the Medical-Alternative Forum and look up "such and such".

Building off this setup, is another idea: You could mirror the original post over to the new forum (not move it, just start a new thread with the same header and a referrence to the original post/poster) and continue the dicsucssion there, leaving the orginal post in Medica-Conventional for others to respond to it with more conventional stuff.

Nice idea, but it won't work, I'm afraid.

There aren't enough Busy Bees around to try to respond to pleas for help as it is now. In other words, we have to balance the needs of the newbies with the limitations of the "oldies" (the Busy Bees, whatever we're called).

If we have to keep trying to follow similar threads posted in two separate places, not only will we lose all our Busy Bees who try to help out the newbies, but we'll end up working our Moderators to death, too.

quote:

---

Originally posted by GiGi:
It would be so wonderful for all the world if everyone were that lucky to cure Lyme Disease with abx and yoghurt. Are you the exception?

---

He's not an exception. Most people are able to overcome Lyme disease (early or late) without "alternative" therapies.

Syphilis - most cases successfully treated with high-dose, long-term abx combos
Leprosy - most cases successfully treated with high-dose, long-term abx combos
Lyme - most likely pretty much the same, though more difficult to treat due to doctors' ignorance

"Everyone" is not going to get better without adjunctive therapies, but most do. It usually takes a long time (1.5yrs+), and a very high dose of multiple antibiotics.

As for thinking back to my "first time here"....I can't remember that far back!! heehehee....

quote:

---

Originally posted by StrengthToStrength:

"Everyone" is not going to get better without adjunctive therapies, but most do. It usually takes a long time (1.5yrs+), and a very high dose of multiple antibiotics.

---

I DID 20 months of very high doses of multiple antibiotics, Iv Rocephin, Doxy, Biaxin, Clindamycin, Rifampin, Flagyl, etc.

I am now MUCH worse than I was two years ago when I started the abx.

I think that most of the folks posting about alternative treatments HAVE tried 1.5 years of high doses of abx and are now looking for something, anything to make them feel better...I know I am.

We still have "old-timers" here that post General stuff in Medical all the time. Prehaps we can gently tell them that this subject belongs in General or Off-topic as jokes should be, and then the new comers will see that and follow.

But, if the "old-timers" don't stop posting non-medical in Medical, then how can we expect new poster's to do it?

New poster's have tunnel vision and only will read what their brains will direct them to at the time. Example, the red print over in the Seeking a Doctor forum. If you read over those posts, a lot of poster's there for the first time obviously have not read the red print.

I, personally, think that if the ones who disagree with the so-called alternatives would just leave those posts alone or state their opinions and warnings and then let it go, then there wouldn't be any of these problems.

But, there seems to be a couple of self-elected "no-alternative" police on this site that will not just let it go. I say, if not for those folks, then there wouldn't have been a problem with this in the first place.

Remember all the flack the ICHT poster's got when they first posted about ICHT.

And, even more recently, the poster's who posted about Rife.

And...now those posts seem rather tame.

I believe that those of us looking for answers after trying the conventional route, should have just as much right to post in Medical as anyone.

Went to my LLMD last month and didn't get a prescription for anything. I am so much worse than when I saw him first over a year ago...he gave me a new diet, the one about the root vegetables...talk about alternative.

The two visits before were for Prolotherapy on what we know now to be a torn rotator cup. We even did the Prolotherapy before any x-rays were proformed to determine if it was something Prolotherapy would not cure.

But, hey, that was from a well respected LLMD, right, so I should just keep doing what he says to do and keep getting sicker, right?

I really was sick my last visit and deseparately needed help and I got a diet...oh, well. A lot of good this is going to do me, since I have been vomiting since November, no matter what I eat, from above ground or below...doesn' matter.

Very, very well stated, gals. I'm proud to know you both -- and TroutMeister, too, of course who started this wonderful topic for us.

It's always good now and then to take a look at how we are performing as a group so that we can do an even better job.

If there's to be a special Forum just for newbies, then maybe the Moderators might select a few of the very best "newbie-greeters" to help host it, just ot get it off the ground.

Later, it could simply be a stand-alone section, without the necessity for interaction, after all of the material had been condensed into a simple, pre-digested format.

In other words, maybe Lou B. could designate a few folks here to help organize it by giving them "wizard powers" or by designating them as "moderators" just for that one section, until it gets off the ground. This would spread the work load around enough, in order to insure that it was the best possible work-of-art-and-science-and-love that we are capable of making it into.

After that, it wouldn't need much tampering with, unless of course, new ideas needed to be incorporated into it as we learned about them.

I guess what I'm saying is that, if the computer controller has the ability to open this section up to only just a few designated individual who can post there as "guest contributors" (rather than as moderators, because I like that term better for this purpose), then it wouldn't get flooded with everyone else who wanted to try to post questions.

The designated committee could play around with the topics in "rough draft" format until it was ready to be displayed for public view.

Now, the big question is, is it possible for Lou B. to open up a special section like this, reserved just for his hand-selected committee to participate in, but blocking anyone else from posting there, during its development phase?

If so, then the task sounds like it might be a lot of fun to work on without being too daunting for anyone. If not, then it might be somewhat more difficult to organize it.

I nominate, but not in any special order: Melanie, TinCup, LymeToo as "greeters" or as "organizers" to get things rolling. I've probably left out several other good folks, but these are the first names which popped into my mind. More than a half dozen folks on the committee might get too complicated, though. So, no one should get hurt feelings over it, if his/her name isn't in the group, because I'm sure that they could still contribute anyway, by sending private e-mails to someone else who's on the committee, in order to interject an idea to be incorporated into the various topics.

OK, enough. This idea might not even be technically possible to organize it this way at all, so I'm getting ahead of myself already, by starting to try to nominate a steering committee for organizing this project.

In case anyone's forgotten, the project I have in mind is a Special Forum for Newbies, where no one posts but where newbies can visit when they first join to learn the answers to basic newbie-type questions, before starting to post too many redundant questions over and over and over in the Medical Forum.

Remember the topic between Free2Reckon and SkeezixDoc -- where everyone agreed to stay out of it (except for popping it back up to the top so it didn't get lost) by not posting their ideas, so that the two of them could have an uninterrupted conversation, while the rest of us "lurked" and "eaves-dropped" but without posting on it ourselves?

Well, maybe we could organize a few topics this way. Then the committee could be expanded into several sub-committees, so that there would be more in-put for various topic. Each separate topic would have no more than 2-3 committee members who did all the posting, until the "rough draft" format was ironed out to everyone's satisfaction.

Outsiders, who weren't on a particular sub-committee, would still be able to contributed idea, but not openly -- because that would interrupt the topic flow -- but privately, back-channel. Or maybe openly, if things didn't start to get out of hand.

During the topic between Skeezix and Free2Reckon, everyone else enjoyed just being able to learn from the two of them by NOT interrupting their private discussion.

I'll bet this would work out fine for the purpose of this little "collective project", too -- if in the opening statement when each separate topic was announced, it was proposed that others not join into these Special Topic discussions.

The term "Special Project Topic" could even be inserted into each separate topic heading as a sign that this topic was supposed to be closed to non-participants.

PS -- I'm editing yet AGAIN:
Or maybe it wouldn't even be necessary to exclude anyone from the topic, but when the final format was agreed upon by the appointed topic committee, then the topic itself could be moved into another special forum for topics addressed to the usual questions asked by newbies, which would then be closed to comments posted by anyone.

[This message has been edited by TX Lyme Mom (edited 16 February 2004).]

PPS - and editing yet AGAIN:
Heck, why not let's just start a few new theads right here in the General Forum where we play around with various topics and sub-topics which are of general interest to newbies?

Then, when something good emerges that's close to final format, then we can ask the Moderators if they like it. If they do, then they can transfer the final draft, or edit the final work product first, and post it under a special section dedicated to newbies.

If we decided to do this, then let's agree to designate these topics with something in the subject heading, such as "Newbie Project", followed by the sub-topic heading, such as "how to do a search" or whatever the sub-topic is intended to be about.

Who wants to go first?

Actually, maybe the first topic needs to be a discussion of general organization, so that we have a rough idea of what sub-topics need to be included as part of this larger project.

OK, now who wants to start the ball rolling? Not I. I'm going ot be pre-occupied for the rest of this week and probably won't be posting much at all until at least this next weekend. TC's still out of town, I think. LymeToo has posted that she can't log on except for weekends now, due to changes in her personal life. And Melanie needs to rest and study.

So, who else wants to kick this project off?

Take your time and think it over. There's no rush.

StrengthtoStrength--I agree with you and I also somewhat disagree. I have known a good number of people who got over lyme easily. At the same time, I've begun to be suspicious of related problems that crop up later that people don't realize are related to lyme. It took me a long while to come around to this as I regarded it as paranoia on the part of lymies at first. But now I'm beginning to wonder. WHen I heard that Pauline Kael's only child had chronic lyme, and then I learned that Kael died of Parkinson's, I really had to wonder if it wasn't a late-stage response to lyme--. I have no idea, of course, I just now wonder about these things. Once you become aware of its range of symptoms, and potential latency, you can see a different picture emerge. Someone in basic good health with heart block or cardiac arrhythmnias, for instance, may not link it back to a case of "cured" lyme years earlier. I'm not saying this is common, but I do think it's more common than realized. I used to wonder, how could I walk in someone's garden in Connecticut for 15 minutes and get lyme so badly, and she and her hubby live there for 4 years and not get it? Then I realized they both had it and either didn't know or weren't admitting. He'd had knee surgery. SHe had migraines that paralyzed half her face pretty regularly, and occasional hip pain that put her in bed on percocet. She also had serious depression at times. There was no reason for these health problems. However they didn't have the other stuff, that I have, fibro and fatigue. I suspect she may have had it for years, and either not known, or had taken antibiotics for a few weeks and thought her problems were unrelated.

I posed a simple "vote" and asked that there be NO further discussion.

Alot of things have been brought up however; even though the "Rules" of the thread said NO Discussion.

LOL...I Knew it would happen...haha. And, I am pleased.

The things that came up are all very valid points.

However, this proves my theory....the rules would be broken anyway. (AS they were here.)

Remember, all I asked for was that only those in support of the initiative post.

So....by posting here...you all voted yes!!!

I thank You For your yes votes...although many of you voted more than once.

Here's what I am driving at....we know the issues are broad....very complex indeed...and therein lies the problem; as a newbie I focus on what I can read easily and with facts I can focus on.

If we have another category added for "care"
it would only HELP me focus.

Call it what you want...the Newby Place or whatever.....but, we NEED to clean up Medical....and throw stuff back into General...I remind people when I can.

Medical is a broad term....however, it fit a specific need.

General is even nroader and can be used....for other things...like "complimentary"

as you can see...we ALREADY have a category just waiting for us to use it...its called "General".

Now....shame on all of you that did NOT respect the rules I posted for this stream....but, I always love a good debate.

Very Congenial and Self Contained...you all treated each other with dignity and knew that I wouldn't have it any other way on MY Subject.

And, The only one whom I shall slap on the wrist is, Lymie Tony Z; for saying I shouldn't pat myself on the back....since I hadn't "thought' This one out.

You my friend had NO idea who your were talking to.

Chow....and Good Work to ALL of You...what a GREAT bunch of People.

Trout Dude

I am not sure the General section is completely appropriate for these topics. General is also for support topics such as help with schools and family issues which don't relate to alternative therapy. Just my 2 cents.

My apologies for taking part in the hi-jaking of this thread...I know how aggravating that is!

But, I also know that you do enjoy hearing various perspectives as long as they are offered with dignity and forethought.

Still, that is no excuse...I suppose a new thread should have been started with the separate idea...

please forgive my mistake.

So, you were trying to "rig the election", huh, by fixing it so that there could be no dissenting votes?

You didn't really expect folks not to dissent, now did you?

Oh well, "All's well that ends well." It was a heck of a good topic and a lot of good ideas came out of it.

Thanks for initiating this topic, TroutScout. It was very timely.

PS -- I still vote Nay, and I'm NOT apologizing for "hijacking" Your topic this way and for posting my Nay vote here, either. I'm doing it, because I think it is in the best interests of the group as a whole to do so -- which is what I think you really wanted for us to do anyway.

PPS - I simply can't separate the adjunctive therapies in my mind from the mainstream abx therapies, so I'd never be able to respond to topics without getting into trouble with everyone in BOTH forums. I'd be the first one the Moderators had to kick out of the group because these two medical issues are simply not separate in my mind and never will be. They are totally integrated from my point of view.

That's why you and I will just have to agree to disagree on this issue, but with respect for one another's sincerity and dignity -- which is how ALL disagreements should be handled all the time.

Frankly, I don't bother to argue with anyone for whose opinion I have no respect, though, because it's a waste of our mutual time and energies. But I happen to like you, TS, a whole bunch -- enough to tell you when I don't see things your way and why I see them differently, my friend. Truce.

I apologize for making it sound so complicated. I was "thinking out loud" so-to-speak, as I was composing those responses.

In the end, I came to the conclusion that it would be fairly easy to accomplish. I regret that my lengthy posts were so off-putting and regret even more that I'm not going to get a chance to "fix" it anytime soon.

Maybe you might like to read just the last part of the last message I wrote about this before making up your mind to reject the idea.

I like what this thread developed into.

quote:

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Originally posted by charlie:
I have inside info that TXLM writes press releases for Alan Greenspan.....

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Charlie,
And when my daughter saw that remark, she told me to watch out for YOU because now she thinks you're another troll. (I tried to set her straight on that, though, although I'm not sure she believes me.)

Actually I'm a bit jealous of those of you who can think and type long convoluted posts at the same time and I have trouble chewing gum while I walk..

Trout

quote:

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Originally posted by charlie:
[BGuess I shouldn't always try to be funny but it's just part of my nature...[/B]

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Keep it up, Charlie my boy.

Your posts are always so succinct. I look forward to your unique, keen wit. It helps us keep perspective.

BTW, if I had to type with two fingers, the hunt-and-peck way (like you), then I wouldn't be so verbose either. I admire your succinct style and wish I could immulate it sometimes.

Have we heard anything from the Moderators? What do they think about an alternative forum??

quote:

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Originally posted by troutscout:

as you can see...we ALREADY have a category just waiting for us to use it...its called "General".

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Trout--

I am so confused. Are you now voting "No" on your proposition?

If so, according to your thread rules, should you have said so or just not said anything?

------------------
Tabby

Let me clarify...I vote a resounding YES.

Sorry....I guess I got caught up in the moment...ya know, Lyme Brain and All.

DUuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhHHHHHUHU! lol

I think Medical Needs a filter or a break and this would 'add' that filter.....although there is a gray area...I believe it would help.

Trout

I guess in teh end if it doesn't fly...we can revert things over to General...although I kinda think that would counter-productive.

But the New Member database, could then serve to soften new member's arrival, make more welcome, and make navigating medical a little easier for new folks.

I still don't like the idea of separating. I think the old and new should mix, as we all learn from one another, are more likely to answer new posts in Medical, and I know I learn for myself from replying to posts.

I dove right onto Medical just the way it is, and, yes, the lingo was unrecognizable and some wacko posts were about, but I got just one or two of those great welcome posts from I think Beverly and Lymetoo, and I started doing my homework..

I think if people want to be here, they'll stay..but a section to provide the info that so many of our sweetest welcomers post on new member's threads repeatedly would be a win, win, win situation..

We could put lots of diversified info up there.

And it would not be a section that needs extra moderation, (I'd be concerned about the trolls who prey on new folks, as well..remember NYCTickhead or whatever..)

and it wouldn't split the group, but could be very helpful and also free up some space in Medical.

Mo

but, perhaps before we invest too much more time into this...

someone (HINT HINT) should notify Lou B. and ask if it is even feasible to add ANY new information on this site...be it a new member thing, an alternative thing...or...anything.

On the other hand, if we make it difficult for him, then he's not going to be the least bit enthusiastic.

Apologies for my rather rambling posts (on pg. 4) while I was thinking this out and talking myself into it, but now I see it as a fairly simple plan to execute.

First, we would simply start a couple of topics right here in the General Forum -- since not so many of the "debate clubbers" would be likely to mess it up.

Make it democratic so that everyone had a say in contributing ideas to each separate topic.

Then, when a particular topic was close to being ready, in semi-final form, that would be the time to notify Lou B. to take a look at it and see if it met with his approval.

After enough topics were organized and ready, then he could transfer them all to that section (maybe editing out extraneous stuff) and then announce that the Special Forum for Newbies was now officially open.

Lou B. shouldn't have to do any work at all if one or two different individuals volunteered to serve on the editing committee for each separate topic in order to put the finishing touches on each section before calling it to Lou B's attention.

The very first thing to do, of course, would be to decide which main topics needed to be included, as separate headings. You know, things like:
why it's important to be tested by a reliable lab;
why it's important to find a Lyme-friendly LLMD, preferable one who is a member of ILADS;
"LymeSpeak" terms and abbreviations for newbies;
how to do a search of old topics here at LymeNet -- also on PubMed, maybe;
Etc., etc. -- Just think about some of the links that Melanie and LymeToo and TinCup have collected on their lists.

I don't think this task would be too overwhelming or daunting at all if we simply organize it into smaller sections, perhaps with a committee of no more than 1-3 individuals to be responsible for editing the material in any particular topic section.

How could Lou B. nix something as simple (for him) as that, if it helped LymeNet to serve the needs of both Newbies and of Lurkers more easily?

Now, instead of a "poll" about yea or nay, how about a "betting" pool where we cast our bets as to whether Lou B. will go along with this idea if we present it to him in semi-finished form -- or at least in semi-finished "rough draft" format. I can't see how he's nix something like this if we present it to him so that his job is relatively easy.

PS -- I don't think we want to bother him with this until we've worked out the details a little more first. No doubt that either he or one of the other Moderators is watching quietly in the background to see how this topic progresses anyhow.

My guess is that if he is strongly opposed to the idea, then he'll send a signal so that we don't waste too much of our valuable time doing the preliminary organizational work on it. However, I think it's premature to ask him to approve or disapprove it until we get it more nearly ready for him to view it first.

PPS - We've gotta' wait until TC gets back home before we start working on this plan. TC has a way of phrasing things and a special knack for knowing just how to make ideas clear to newbies, so let's wait until she gets back from her holiday before we get too far along with the pre-organizational phase of this idea -- like what separate topic sections are needed and so forth. The rest will be easy after we get past that hurdle.

While I agree with everything you just wrote...I also think it would be a waste of time to put so much energy into something that MAY not be able to happen.

I think Lou B. needs to at least give the 'go ahead and let's see how it looks first'...before this much effort is undertaken.

Yes, Moonbeam needs to be involved...also, it think it wise to let ANYONE who wants to contribute get involved...we ALL have important contributions. By limiting ourselves from the beginning...we are limiting the posibilities.

I've thought it over...here's what I think we should do.

This would answer the questions regarding "legit" vs "alternative".

I say we add another Discussion area called;

"Alternative Care"

This way when someone chimes in...we know it may be an "off-the-wall" unproven modality...and no one can complain.

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I vote NO.
You can't cut a neat line between "alternative" and mainstream therapies. Where would you post Dr. Burrascano's treatment recommendations, for example? He makes use of both.

Also, who can say, what is "proven" and what is "unproven" in Lyme medicine, when we are having to deal with so much corruption from the CDC, the NIH , Eucalb in Europe etc.. According to the corrupt study by Klempner, long-term antibiotics is "unproven".

What we need is for people to post the sources of their information when they report that a particular remedy is helpful or harmful. And above all we need to know whether those sources of information have a financial or other conflict of interest in what they are reporting.
Lisa

i haven't read all the responses, so apologies if i'm reapeating others' words here... but... felt i needed to be honest, and say i think it's a really bad idea.

i'll admit, it has appeal...cause it'd allow folks not to have to wade through as many posts... but i think that's an essentially superficial differnce, and that it will hav enegative effects (especially for newbies who need to learn about the things they don't know about already)...

i truly think that most folks who get better do so by integrating a wide variety of approaches... and artifically separating so called alternative and traditional approaches would only widen the gap that we already have.

folks who think they're only interested in abx will not be exposed to all the interesting other things they might try with or instead or after abx, and folks doing the purely "alt" approach will not see things which might be useful to them.

it will mean that those of us interested in ALL approaches will have to scan both in order to keep abreast. and i think it will widen a gap which i and many others are continually trying to bridge in our treatments, knowledge, etc.

not to mention that there are a bunch of examples already of things which will be impossible to assign to one category over the other... and so i predict lots and lots of double posts on both, actually creating more clog, and less cross talk.

ok... that's my two cents.

Then we can focus on helping the ones with questions about initial treatment options.

You'll are THE best.

Trout