map1131
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posted
Truthfinder, same here and suspecting some(one) is using more than one user name(s) to voice their many personalities.
I suspected this one is flipping out?
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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SForsgren
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For me, I am interested in hearing from people that have tried MMS, not from those that have no knowledge of it, have not read the 2 eBooks, and really have no place from which to state an opinion one way or another.
I know of one LLMD that has recommended this as a potentially useful therapy.
In my opinion, talking about something that one has no experience with is dangerous. Am I suggesting that MMS works? No. Am I suggesting that it doesn't work? No.
Until I have enough data and maybe even firsthand personal experience, it does not seem prudent for me to attempt to make a comment one way or another on a topic.
And in response to GreatCod's post above, in most countries where HIV/AIDS is prevalent, it is in the straight community. Just wanted to point out that you left them out. They probably should be alerted to MMS as well. HIV does not discriminate.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Greatcod
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posted
And how exactly does one reach the straight community, other than informing the medical establishment. I don't know of any all inclusive straight community oraganizations, do you? Not that I don't want to be PC. Scott, is there anything alternative you don't endorse as worthwhile?
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Truthfinder
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Thanks, D Bergy. Glad to hear you are talking it slow. How long are you going to give this treatment to see results? Hmmm, maybe that wasn't a fair question...... I'm not really sure it is a treatment that should be put into a definite timeframe... Well, I'm looking forward to your report, or some updates as you go along. Best of luck!
Boy, that link you provided leads to so many links..... pretty extensive information there.
GC, I can't verify how much sensationalism is involved in Mr. Humble's website. I can (and did), however, show where YOU engaged in sensationalism, and what happens here on LymeNet concerns me a lot more than what Mr. Humble does. And suggesting that Scott is endorsing this treatment is just another clear example.
GC, do you really think the Malawi government would put a great deal of confidence in just ONE study, even if it were a verified study? That would be a bit premature, don't you think? (Plus, if enough money changes hands among the right people, nobody will hear about the study anyway.)
I fear you are right, Pam.
Scott, if you hear any feedback about this treatment via this LLMD or any of his patients, please let us know. I would certainly welcome any information as it pertains to those of us with Lyme & Co.
Tracy
Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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I really do not have any particular symptoms to gauge effectiveness other than my Crohn's symptoms.
Crohn's could be caused by one or more bacteria types in the intestine, but that is just the leading theory. If it is a bacteria, and MMS works, then possibly it could eliminate my symptoms. I am not putting too much confidence in that since there are so many unknowns about both the disease, and the treatment.
I will watch to see if I have any resolution to some other minor issues, such as a patch of Psoriasis, skin tags. Twice I have resolved health problems by accident, so I have learned to watch for the unexpected.
I started out at 1 drop and am increasing by two drops a day until I get some reaction. I took three drops this morning, had no noticable effect.
I had a slight pain in a particular place in my stomach before I took the one drop dose. About five minutes after the dose, the pain increased a little for about ten minutes and then was gone altogether. Does not really mean anything, but it was what occurred. No other reactions of note.
I will continue to take it until I reach 15 drops. Then I will call it quits and go off of my supplements I use to keep my inflammation under control. If I can do that without any issues for a few weeks, then I may start to consider that it did something beneficial.
My wife, who does have Lyme will not be using it in the near future. I want more evidence of safety before I would consider that.
I would not want anyone to think I am recommending this method. It is not proven safe or effective. I am just curious if it has any ill or positive effects on a relatively healthy person. I will post more as I go on.
Best Regards
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Greatcod
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"Separate tests conducted by the Malawi government produced identical 99% cure results"
Medically, that's the equivilant of finding little green men (and women) on Mars. Quite sensational.
And it is quite flattering that no one would track my posts...thank you. I assure you that your are alone in that pursuit.
And given that Scott has done so much research, it would be a great help to the Lyme patient community if he posted those alternative treatments he has found to be useless, or outright scams. There must be some.
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Truthfinder
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Thanks very much for the update and `the plan', D. Bergy. And remember.... no puking. That is an effect I simply would not be able to tolerate.
I also read where heart palpitations can occur using MMS, but nobody has reported anything serious yet, and usually temporary. Heart palps are what I had as my only `herx' symptom when I took both the Samento and the Cumanda, so I'm kind of tuned into that particular effect.
I have read some of the theories about Crohn's. and bacteria (or some other microbes) in the gut is certainly a plausible theory to me. After what I have learned here at LymeNet, I would almost be surprised if it were NOT microbial.
Thanks again for your willingness to keep us in the loop.
For Scott and some others here who aren't discounting this as `hooey' right off the bat, I found a thread elsewhere that might be of interest, so I'll send some PMs out..... don't want to bother anybody else with unimportant information.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Hi Truthfinder, Please write to me at my other addy. Unable to reply to u for some reason on the PM HERE. Take care
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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Greatcod
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Chlorine dioxide is a chemical compound with the formula ClO2. This greenish-yellow gas crystallizes as orange crystals at −59 �C. As one of several oxides of chlorine, it is a potent and useful oxidizing agent used in water treatment and in bleaching.
Has anyone ever opened their eyes underwater in a chlorinated pool..point being that it does to human tissue what it does to pathogens. Be very careful. It's not a Miracle Mineral, it's an industrial chemical.. And please be as specific as posssible as to the effects, not merely "it helped"...what symptoms, how improved.
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D Bergy
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I have nothing much to report on MMS. I took five drops today and had the slight pain sensation in my surgical area where I had three inches of small bowel removed. Since I have this sensation every so often it is not unusual in itself, but being I have had this slight pain somewhere after every dose for ten minutes or so I think I can safely attribute it to the MMS.
I also started taking 4 ounces of water instead of two so the MMS would be more likely to travel farther down my gut before being absorbed. This could be why I felt it further down than before.
What does it mean? I have no idea. The surgical area often forms a new stricture after the original is removed so it is not unexpected that it would be sensitive. Whether the MMS is just irritating the area or disinfecting it is unknown.
Other than that I have no side effects or unusual reactions or sensations. No nausea which kind of surprises me. Maybe because I have been taking large doses of Turmeric, Ginger, and regular doses of Krill oil for quite a while, I may not have much in the way of bad bacteria in my gut.
I have read a couple of reports of temporary heart problems which should be of concern to Lyme patients. It is speculated that the MMS cleans out arterial plaque so quickly that it can cause this problem. Whether this is what causes it or not, this problem has been reported more than one time so I think it should be noted. The problem so far has been temporary, but that does not mean it should be disregarded.
It will be some time before I can say whether it has improved my condition in any way. So far it has not made it worse. When I am done and can quit my supplements for a while I will be able to draw some conclusions.
I have the opportunity to have some blood work done soon free from my employer. One test will check liver enzymes. It will be interesting to see if they are elevated.
Thats all for now.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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Okay, Healing in S.C. - done.
Yes, GC, and I don't know of anybody who died drinking a bit of swimming pool water..... lord knows, I swallowed a lot of it as a kid.......let's face it, orange juice will burn your eyes if you swim in it, but it's perfectly fine to drink it.
Unless we start talking about concentrations and exposure (as I mentioned before), how can we equate this with MMS? We can't. In a sense, from what I understand, this is basically `stabilized oxygen' therapy, which has been around for decades. And that really helped me with my acute EBV infection, I might add, back in the early 90s...... one of those products considered `hooey'........ Hmmm. I never tried it for Lyme...... and don't really know why I didn't think of it.
D Bergy, thanks for the update and the important info about the heart problems. Very good to know. I did see a lot of plaque in my blood when I had the Live Blood Analysis done.
I've noticed that my heart palps have increased lately, and the only thing I've changed is adding chlorella and Green Magma to my regimen. I've started to smell bad, too. Detoxing and getting more gunk into the blood?
I've gotten a little more info on where to read about people using/discussing the MMS, so perhaps more PMs will be going out. If I can find the time!
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Greatcod
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If a person takes it in concentrations great enough to kill pathogens, at a minimum it must kill the good intestinal bacteria. Humble claimed that it only killed pathogens--that seems absurd to me.
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D Bergy
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I would say that it is likely that it kills other bacteria besides just bad bacteria. It may be a good idea to use a probiotic also. It certainly would not hurt anything.
I suppose a bacteriologist would know if the characteristics of bad bacteria are always different in some way. That would be the only way it could discriminate between the two.
Thanks for bringing it up. I think I will start taking the probiotics when I am done. Although, I have not noticed any difference in my digestive functions yet, it could come with time.
Took seven drops today, nothing to note other than the slight intestinal pain for a few minutes.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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I really don't want to be a negative nellie, and I'm all for trying new things and alternatives to beat this nasty thing. That said, I found this blurb online and thought it was interesting, and applied to the MM:
"Hydrogen Peroxide is a naturally produced purposeful molecule in the body. It functions to aid membrane transport, acts as a hormonal messenger, regulates thermogenesis (heat production), stimulates and regulates immune functions, regulates energy production and many other important metabolic functions.
These effects can occur without increasing the amount of oxygen. It is purposely used by the body to produce Hydroxyl Radicals to kill bacteria, virus, fungi, yeast and a number of parasites.
This natural killing or protective system has nothing to do with increasing the amount of available oxygen.
The amount of oxygen produced by a therapeutic infusion of Hydrogen Peroxide is very small. A single breath of fresh air contains many times more oxygen than found in either a therapeutic infusion or in a few drops of 35% Food Grade Hydrogen Peroxide taken orally.
Claims are being made that molecules containing Oxygen and Chlorine, Chlorine or Chlorite ions will sterilize water, milk and almost anything to which they have been added.
Chlorine is added to almost all public water supplies for the same purpose. The small amount of oxygen in these molecules have very little to do with this sterilization process. There are many more aerobic (requires oxygen) than anerobic (does not use oxygen) bacteria and increasing the oxygen supply may actually stimulate the growth of the aerobic bacteria.
`Oxygen supply' or `Oxygenation' is not a credible basis for the promotion of these products. Oxidation is the key word and not Oxygenation.
"Oxidation is the removal of an electron from a molecule which changes electrical energy of the molecule into an oxidized state. The oxidizing agent which accepts the electron through this reaction becomes reduced.
This reaction takes place in many biochemical reactions in which OXYGEN is not involved. In oxidative reactions in which Hydrogen Peroxide is involved, oxygen is released when the Hydrogen Peroxide, acting as an oxidizer, is reduced but it is the transfer of the electrons which is important and not the production of Oxygen.
Manufacturers of products which claim to have the same effect as Hydrogen Peroxide may not have a good understanding of the biochemical role of Hydrogen Peroxide in the body.
Some of these products claim to provide more oxygen molecules than Hydrogen Peroxide and that may be true but I know of no scientific evidence to show this enhances oxidative metabolism."
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D Bergy
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It sounds like the author is trying to make a distinction between increasing the oxygen in the body (oxygenation) vs the chemical reaction of taking an electron from a molecule(oxidation).
My understanding is that MMS works by the process of oxidation.
The following link seems to explain it as an oxidizer also. But, I am not a chemical engineer and chemistry class was a long time ago.
posted
Yeah, exactly, and I think they're saying that chlorite is not a stronger oxidzer than peroxide.
But, it's all really theory. No one really knows what happens in the body, so my hat's off to those of you brave enough to try it, and I'll be very interested to see how people do on it, and I really hope it works!
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Truthfinder
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The concern about killing beneficial bacteria is a valid one. It is certainly a problem when taking abx. Now I don't know this info is accurate, but according to what Wallace posted in that other MMS thread:
"Throughout the body, anywhere chlorine dioxide ions - transported via red blood cells - come in contact with pathogens, the pathogens give up "their electrons and cease to exist. The chlorine dioxide armed cells only ``detonate'' on contact with pathogens, which include harmful bacteria, viruses, toxins, heavy metals, and parasites. All of these will have pH values that are out of the body's range of good health. They will also have a positive ionic charge. The chlorine dioxide equipped cells do not oxidize beneficial bacteria, or healthy cells, as their pH levels are 7 or above, and hold a negative ion charge.
D Bergy, I read Hesselink's article (the link you posted). Pretty interesting, although a bit above my head in the chemistry department..... I had no idea that Artemisinin and allicin (component of garlic) are in the ``oxidative therapy'' category. And we've all heard stories here about how potent the effects can be from Artemisinin.......
There is a Yahoo group that is discussing the MMS therapy - hiker mentioned this. Of course, you have to join the group in order to see the posts but if anyone is interested, I THINK this link should take you where you can sign up.
Earlier, I mentioned a product that helped me with my acute EBV infection years ago. Well, I actually found a blurb about that very product on Humble's website.
Here's part of it.....
``Dioxychlor(TM) is available on the Internet for sale and the entire scientific paper is available as well. The formula although somewhat weaker than MMS is the exact same chemical. (TM stands for Trade Mark). Go to Google and search Dioxychlor.''
The instructions for taking Dioxychlor are: ``May be used sublingually, 2-20 drops 2-3 times daily. Hold in your mouth as long as possible before swallowing. Use 4 days & stop for 3, then keep repeating this on/off dosing. Start at lower dose and gradually increase as needed.'' But you won't find all those instructions on the bottle. And the stuff is pretty expensive.
This `pulsing' method may prove to be beneficial with the MMS, also, especially for people with tough, difficult-to-eradicate bugs like Lyme which may require a longer treatment period. By all means, go slowly and cautiously with the MMS. We just don't know much yet.
Tracy
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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Lots of good input and I seem to learn a little more from the discussion every day.
I did seven drops yesterday and at the time I posted I had no reactions. But later on I had the big D and was on the toilet quite a few times. I did not take it this morning since it is not real convenient to have the runs at work. It did not matter as it continued most of the day.
At least I know it is doing something, not sure what yet. I plan on taking a nine drop dose tonight. We will see what happens. I can sluff off tomorrow if I have to.
I often wondered how some herbs can kill only bad bacteria. They must also react with the different Ph or some other characteristic that is common to pathogens. It seems odd to me that most of the bad guys in our body essentially wear chemical black hats so they can be identified.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Greatcod
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The gut is very acidic, so I am guessing the good bacteria of the digestive tract are adapted to the acidic enviroment, and would be killed by the chlorine dioxide. The rest of the body is mildly alkaline, so the cells of the veins and arteries must be alkaline, and not harmed by the red blood cells carrying the extra oxygen. The assumption seems to be that the pathogens are acidic, and can be killed by the by the extra oxygen..
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D Bergy
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The more I think about it, the more I believe you are correct that the MMS likely kills both good and bad bacteria in the gut. Nothing is there to control its action since it is just poured in.
I have noticed that my stomach is more acidic for some reason since yesterday. I get the hiccups when it is more acidic. Maybe that is the result of wholesale bacterial kill off.
Once the MMS is in the bloodstream it is a different ballgame and I am not sure how exactly the immune system uses it selectively. I think the immune system is still a mystery for the most part. It is to me anyway.
I must have missed that part about the Allicin and Artemisinin Truthfinder. I was not aware that Allicin and Artemisinin worked by a similar method. That is good to know. I have considered trying out Allicin but have not heard many reports on effectiveness.
Thanks for the testimonial healthyperson. I am glad you suffered no apparent harm from your experiment. Makes me feel a little less worried.
I would rather drink a glass of battery acid before I would give up meat. You have more will power than me. But, personally I think meat is good for a person. It is easy for me to believe that since I like it so much.
Good Night
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Glad to see this thread has calmed down. I started MMS Sept 6 and have had quite a few positives. Brain-fog clearing, stuffy nose clearing,pain much better, energy up. I did have a bit of nausea when I first started,but that has not been an issue lately. No vomiting or diareah. I started with 1 drop and will post in the future what I experienced. I am doing lemon,or lyme with water. The citric acid does not feel comfy right now. I find it very important to take minerals and extra Mag. I am still doing Buhner protocal. I am quite excited about MMS. My MD is very interested in it and is watching me closely. He has recommended it to other people. That make 2 great Docs that r recommending it and I know others r watching very closely. I have been disabled with lyme and co,heavy metals,candida etc. I have MCS,EI and find if I am exposed the reactions do not last a long. I am taking supps 4-5 hrs away from mms. 5-6 drops 3 times about 1 hr to 2 hours apart. I use a pendulum and my dr does muscle testing to get amounts,how often etc. I have had a few emotional herxs, and vey mild others. I am using this with caution as others should as not enough research on lymies taking it long term. This is the most progress I have had in 31/2 yrs killing lyme. I saw dxed after 23 yrs ill. I am also doing Quantum techniques.com on myself, homeopathy as dr is md homeopath, and working on depleted adrenals with Ashwagandha and organic Tulsi tea. The herxs are a total different milder thing for me with the MMS. Namaste' Joyce
Posts: 905 | From Santa Cruz,Calif | Registered: Aug 2005
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D Bergy
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Thanks for the report. We need every one who is trying this out to do the same. At least then every one has some information available.
I am glad you are using a cautious approach.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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Many thanks to the posters who are reporting their results.
And thanks, HealthyPerson for editing your post into smaller paragraphs.... I confess, I have a terrible time reading big blocks of text.
I bit the bullet and ordered a bottle of MMS yesterday. I really don't want to interrupt what I'm doing already, so it will probably sit on the shelf for quite awhile. But at least I have it if and when I choose to use it.
I heard there were links to some letters from the Malawi government on Humble's site, but I couldn't find them. Maybe I misunderstood....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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I had the first interesting and disgusting effect since I started this experiment.
At eleven drops I felt fine other than the big D which started around seven drops. Later in the evening I had some more D and had what looked like a large grub used for Crappie fishing in the toilet. About 3/8" of an inch long and wider in the middle about 3/16" of an inch wide at the widest point and tapered to points on both ends. I did not eat anything that could have resulted in such a unique item.
I took thirteen drops just before the first episode but there was not enough time for that to have been the cause. The eleven drops seemed to create this result, whatever it was.
Later at work I dumped some rice looking stuff. about 12 to fifteen objects. Some broken in pieces and some intact and the length of Rice but had the tapered ends. Appeared to be somewhat digested. Similar to the bigger one earlier but of a smaller size. I have seen these on rare occasions in the past, the last time after I took some Turmeric tincture because i was out of my capsules. I just kind of figured it was something I ate since only one appeared and was hard to see in the stool.
Later on I had nothing of interest and have not since.
I do not know if they are parasites or some other unexplained objects.
It is a very disgusting thought if they are parasites.
I am both testing for side effects and hoping for a long shot of resolving Crohn's by eliminating a possible bacteria that triggers the reaction.
If it appears to be safe, we will use it as a possible Lyme treatment later on. Which is my main reason for testing it.
My 23 year old son wanted to take a full fifteen drop dose but I talked him down to seven. He had the big D and burning when he urinated that went away after a while. He is likely loaded with bacteria from his skin disease. He is curious like myself and is trying to find something to help his disease.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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This is most interesting, D Bergy. I really suspect you are seeing parasites, and I don't think that is gross at all. I would be thrilled to get the little suckers out of there (whatever they are.
Are you still on it? I've read over on the MDI Yahoo group that the vomiting can kind of sneak up on you, so please go slow.
I'm having trouble keeping up with the MMS discussions on other sites......
Also, could anyone confirm for me that in the Malawi trials, the MMS was actually IV administered, or perhaps by injection. Can anyone confirm this?
I got my bottle of MMS, but it is just going to sit there awhile, as I explained earlier....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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map1131
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D, sounds like parasites to me. I experienced exactly what you described, while doing parasite cleanse about 2 yrs ago.
Pam
-------------------- "Never, never, never, never, never give up" Winston Churchill Posts: 6495 | From Louisville, Ky | Registered: Jan 2002
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D Bergy
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I took a few days off since the big D was pretty constant and I was not sure if it was Crohn's or the MMS. I thought the MMS could cause a Crohn's flare since my guts are messed up to begin with. I did not want to get dehydrated either.
The D quit when I quit taking the MMS. After a few days I went back on at 15 drops a day since that is where I left off. Three doses so far and no D. My intestinal function is completely normal as far as I can tell. The MMS now has no effect that I can tell. I am not taking any suppliments and do not seem to need them as before. I have completley normal bowel fuction so far. I will need more time to determine if it is a fluke or not.
I am assuming the D was caused by the bad bacteria, parasites I had since I no longer have it. This is exactly how it is described to work so it gives me some confidence that it does mostly as advertised as far as intestinal pathogens go.
I am still leery about taking it every day as a preventative. I just am not sure that it is that safe. I think for most people just using it once a year would take care of anything in the intestinal tract. I have no way of knowing if it did anything for the rest of the body. My psoriasis is still there although slightly better than before. It often fluctuates so that really does not mean anything.
I have no other improvements or negative effects that I can determine.
I am hoping to get a liver fuction test later this month, and I am going to take it before just for that test. It will be interesting to see what it shows.
That is all I have for now.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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D. Bergy, are things still normal in the bowel department? (I know it has only been 4 days since you posted, but I've been wondering about this......)
Assuming you are killing parasites, I would sure stay on the MMS until all stages of parasites have been eliminated. I'm thinking that might take about 6 weeks?
Like you, I'm not sure I would want to take it every day as `maintenance'. But perhaps a few days once a month would prevent severe reinfection from most parasites/ pathogens. I'm not sure I would want to wait an entire year..... (easy for me to say since I haven't taken any at all).
Is the taste pretty objectionable? What are you using for the activator at the present time?
I recently read posts from someone getting great results for a 10-year chronic bronchitis problem. Last they posted, they were nearly off all medications that they had been on for 10 years. I thought that was pretty significant.
Thanks -
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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CaliforniaLyme
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posted
Just fyi, I am not saying don't do this, just saying be careful- they monitor it's level in water for public health which is a little scary to ME, I am not saying You, I am saying to ME- and it can be poisonous- of course many things in moderation can in overdose be toxic we know that- but still-
I've been reading up on it- please read these abstracts- there is a certain risk group of pepole who should not do this stuff at all- seriously- IMO- the first is just the attempted suicide by sodium chlorite abstract but after that- just fyi!!!
Basically water treated with chlorine dioxide has dosium chlorites as byproducts and they have found that certain people who have a G6PD phenotype should NOT do this protocol because it could really hurt them- you can develop HEMOLYTIC ANEMIA!!! from this~!! That's all, Just trying to look out for folks, Seriously, Sincerely, Sarah ************************************ 1: Ren Fail. 1993;15(5):645-8.Links
Acute sodium chlorite poisoning associated with renal failure.
Lin JL, Lim PS. Division of Nephrology, Chang Gung Memorial Hospital, Taipei, Taiwan, Republic of China.
A 25-year-old Chinese male presented with generalized cyanosis and respiratory distress.
The patient was known to have ingested 10 g of sodium chlorite in a suicide attempt.
Methemoglobinemia was found and intravenous methylene blue was given repeatedly. However, the therapy could not prevent an acute hemolytic crisis.
Methemoglobinemia remained profound (43.1%) and disseminated intravascular coagulation ensued.
He was put on CAVHD to correct the fluid overload and probably to remove the active metabolites of the chlorite.
After 24 h, the methemoglobin was reduced to 16.9%.
However, the development of acute renal failure further complicated the clinical course.
Percutaneous renal biopsy suggested a picture of acute tubulointerstitial nephropathy.
In addition, hemodialysis was continued for 4 weeks.
After 3 months, renal function normalized.
To our knowledge, there has been no clinical report of human intoxication with sodium chlorite.
PMID: 8290712
1: Ann Ig. 2005 Nov-Dec;17(6):509-18.Links
G6PD phenotype and red blood cell sensitivity to the oxidising action of chlorites in drinking water
Contu A, Bajorek M, Carlini M, Meloni P, Cocco P, Schintu M. Dipartimento di Sanit� Pubblica, Sezione di Igiene, Universit� degli Studi di Cagliari. [email protected]
Chlorine dioxide is widely used to replace sodium hypochlorite in the disinfection of surface waters for human consumption, in order to avoid or reduce the formation of organohalogenated compounds with mutagenic and carcinogenic activity.
However, chlorine dioxide may lead to the formation of by-products, such as chlorites and chlorates, that have an oxidative effect on the blood corpuscled fraction.
In this investigation, blood crasis was assessed in relation to the G6PD phenotype and the consumption of tap water, disinfected with chlorine dioxide, or bottled mineral water from non-disinfected underground sources.
The results show that the effect of oxidative stress resulting from the uptake of chlorites with drinking water is not additive to the effect due to G6PD deficiency. The observed change in haematological parameters, including those related to the G6PD polymorphism, is always within the normal range. However, it is still possible that more relevant changes would follow exposure to chlorites concentrations greater than that observed in the present study.
PMID: 16523710 1: J Environ Pathol Toxicol. 1980 Sep;4(2-3):271-9.Links G6PD-deficiency: a potential high-risk group to copper and chlorite ingestion.Moore GS, Calabrese EJ.
Although humans may accept fairly large amounts of orally ingested copper (0.25 to 1.0 gm) without visible harmful effects, patients with Wilson's disease, and persons with G6PD deficiency may represent persons at unusual risk to hemolytic anemia from ingestion of Cu(II).
This study reports that in vitro exposure of G6PD deficient red blood cells to copper produced marked elevations of methemoglobin and decreases in GSH when compared with normal red cells.
Chlorite, a by-product of chlorine dioxide disinfection of water, produced decreases in GSH and G6PD activity, while increasing methemoglobin levels markedly over red cells with normal G6PD activity.
The combined action of chlorite and copper was additive in producing increased levels of hemoglobin and decreases in levels of GSH and G6PD deficient cells.
The combined ingestion of copper and chlorite may represent an increased risk to persons with G6PD deficiency.
PMID: 7462905
1: J Environ Pathol Toxicol. 1980 Sep;4(2-3):465-70.Links
Groups at potentially high risk from chlorine dioxide treated water.
Moore GS, Calabrese EJ, Ho SC.
Chlorite, a by-product of chlorine dioxide disinfection of water, is a strong oxidant compound that produces markedly exaggerated effects in vitro on red cells of G6PD deficient humans when compared to normal human cells.
Levels of methemoglobin are significantly greater and GSH levels significantly lower in the G6PD deficient cells than in normal cells after chlorite exposure.
Persons with G6PD deficiency may be 3 to 4 times more likely to develop hemolytic anemia from chlorite exposure as persons with normal activity levels when GSH levels are used as a measure of susceptibility.
The proposed use of chlorine dioxide as an alternate disinfectant for drinking water supplies should consider this potential high risk group.
PMID: 7462914
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
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CaliforniaLyme
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The effect is synergistic with copper ingestion but I had a friend - haven't seen her in years- with Wilsons Syndrome (inability of body to process copper, terrible affliction to have but she was a lovely woman- still is I am sure-!!) and copper is in SO MANY things including things oyu wouldn't even THINK of!!!
Did you know copper is in make-up foundations? She could not wear MANY foundations because there is copper in them!!! Copper is in foods and can be in foods cooked or kept in copper cans or pots!!
Anyway, so you may think, "Oh, I'll just AVOID copper!!" but from her, T, I know it ain't so easy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
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CaliforniaLyme
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Non-inclusive list of foods HIGH in copper- ************************************************* WHAT ARE GOOD SOURCES OF COPPER?
FOOD SELECTED PERCENTAGE
SERVING SIZE U.S. RDA (1)
BREADS, CEREALS, AND OTHER GRAIN PRODUCTS
Barley, cooked 2/3 cup ++
English muffin, whole-wheat 1 +
Muffin, bran 1 medium +
Pita bread, whole-wheat 1 small +
FRUITS
Prunes, dried, cooked, unsweetened 1/2 cup +
VEGETABLES
Beans, lima, cooked 1/2 cup +
Mushrooms, cooked 1/2 cup +
Potato, baked or boiled, with skin 1 medium +
Sweetpotato, baked or boiled 1 medium +
Tomato juice cocktail 3/4 cup +
Turnip greens, cooked 1/2 cup +
MEAT, POULTRY, FISH, AND ALTERNATES
Meat and Poultry
Liver, braised:
Beef or calf 3 ounces +++
Chicken or turkey 1/2 cup diced +
Fish and Seafood
Clams; steamed, boiled, or
canned; drained 3 ounces +
Crabmeat, steamed 3 ounces ++
Lobster, steamed or boiled 3 ounces +++
Oysters:
Baked, broiled, or steamed 3 ounces +++
Canned, undrained 3 ounces +++
Shrimp; broiled, steamed,
boiled, or canned; drained 3 ounces +
Dry Beans, Peas, and Lentils
Beans, black-eyed peas (cowpeas),
or soybeans, cooked 1/2 cup +
Lentils, cooked 1/2 cup +
Nuts and Seeds
Almonds or cashews,
roasted or dry-roasted 2 tablespoons +
Brazil nuts, english walnuts,
filberts (hazelnuts), pine
nuts (pignolias) 2 tablespoons +
Mixed nuts, dry-roasted 2 tablespoons +
Peanuts, roasted 2 tablespoons +
Pistachio nuts, unroasted 2 tablespoons +
Pumpkin or squash seeds,
hulled, roasted 2 tablespoons +
Sesame seeds 2 tablespoons +
Sunflower seeds, hulled;
roasted, dry-roasted, or
unroasted 2 tablespoons +
-------------------- There is no wealth but life. -John Ruskin
All truth goes through 3 stages: first it is ridiculed: then it is violently opposed: finally it is accepted as self evident. - Schopenhauer Posts: 5639 | From Aptos CA USA | Registered: Apr 2005
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D Bergy
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I am using apple cider vinegar and water. It does not taste too bad, mostly like vinegar.
I quit for a few days to see what would happen. Nothing at all, no bowel problems. I still can feel some slight pain in my surgical area if I eat something that I know does not sit well with me. On average it seems to have improved my intestinal problems somewhat, but I am not cured of Crohn's, nor did I expect to be.
It could be a good treatment since it did seem to clear out a lot of bacteria as judged by my reaction after six drops or so. I have not been able to induce Diarrhea no matter what nasty thing I eat, which is unusual if you have Crohn's.
I am unable to judge any other effect since I am generally healthy otherwise. The parasite thing was gross, but I am going back on it today for a longer term to make sure I have all of those eliminated. They were most likely pin worms, since we have pets and I that would be a likely source.
I never would have thought I had parasites, but life is full of surprises, not always good ones.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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Good points, CALyme and Cave, although I'm quite sure the question of chlorites and chlorates was addressed in the MMS links or literature..... somewhere. But right now, I can't even bring up the old thread about MMS to find some links I never saved, so I don't know where I read about this. But I'm fairly certain that this concern was taken into consideration.
D Bergy, I'm sure any improvement on the Crohn's front is good news. Now, will it last or continue to get better? Keep us posted, please.
You might want to Google some photos of common intestinal worms. What you described does not sound like pinworms, but probably something equally as common. I even wondered if what you saw weren't a larval or immature stage, rather than adult.
I believe that GiGi recently posted about Dr. K's advice on tackling the `big' parasites first (like worms), then working downward on eliminating the smaller critters. So, he certainly acknowledges just how common parasites can be, and that getting rid of them is a top priority.
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D Bergy
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I am sure most parasites are not even visible. I did a little searching, after I ate my dinner.
I think the ones I had a lot of were these tapeworm things found in pets. Not for the squeamish.
I do not know what the larger single critter was but that very well could have been a pin worm. Here is a nasty video of them in action. Do not look at the video if you have a weak stomach.
The ironic part is that one treatment for Crohn's is to infect yourself with hook worms or whip worms and for some reason that lessens the symptoms. It is called Helminth therapy. I actually could be making my symptoms worse by getting rid of the parasites.
I think I will take my chances. The MMS is so far not producing any new visible surprises. I hope I killed every last one of them.
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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D Bergy
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I agree, it is likely too simple. And even if it is not, it is still just another treatment. There are lots of treatments. This one would not be my first choice.
There is also a possible issue of parasitic relocation in which the parasites work there way into other organs.
Thank you for the link.
D Bergy
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sizzled
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Charlie, you've made me laugh so hard...I pee'd! Posts: 4258 | From over there | Registered: Jul 2001
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Truthfinder
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Rumor has it that MMS is being sold on e-Bay with all kinds of claims attached to it, so it may not be long before this whole MMS thing gets shut down. Also, I heard that some shipment from Canada was intercepted by the FDA..... just rumors, mind you.
Yes, D Bergy, `parasitic relocation' is something I've wondered about, also.
I viewed some of the video. I reminded me of some little white worms - about as big around as a sewing needle or maybe a straight pin - that I started to see in my stool at times when I was about 10. Of course, I didn't tell my parents - I was afraid they would make me go to the doctor or make me quit playing with the dog or something. I had to do a short course of abx for something shortly after that, and I never saw the worms again. I just assumed they were gone........
I've done a couple of herbal parasite cleanses in recent years - never saw anything of interest come out. I really don't know how effective most of those cleanses are, though.
Since bacteria often are found inside parasites, perhaps that one reason why the Helminth therapy sort of works.... the bacteria infect the parasites more than they do you. Don't know - just trying to figure that one out.
Apparently, some people with Lyme who are trying the MMS are posting on another forum. I'll have to check it out when I get time.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Hi, Sharon! OH, I see you are from Colorado, too. I'm on the West side of the mountains...... Welcome to LymeNet!
So, you are using the MMS for Lyme, and not necessarily the mold biotoxin issue?
***'' I do not consider $80 to qualify as a scam. Please $7B gone missing to Iraqi contractors yes that is a scam but $80? I spend more on prescription drugs that poison me.''*** Amen to that, Sharon.
Hi, NatureLover - gosh, another new person - Welcome! And thank you for your kind words.
Wow, two new people with open minds; how absolutely refreshing!
It may be of interest for both of you to know that the ``10,000+ poster'' was banned from LymeNet recently, not because of her skepticism (which is a healthy thing), but because her posts on nearly every `alternative' thread were so cynical and generally disruptive. Nature, I think your response to reading the previous pages is a prime example of the problem. Hopefully, we can all learn from that person's mistakes, and discussions about possible new treatments her on LymeNet - no matter how `crazy' they may seem to some - can be courteous and informative.
Oh, boy, Nature - starting at 15 drops? Just from reading what some others have done (on the Yahoo forum), most who have started that high ended up regretting it. They seem fine for a number of days, believe that they have passed the danger threshold, and then all of a sudden, the nausea sneaks up on them and suddenly they are sicker than 3 dogs.
You could be one sick, sick little guinea pig.
Sharon and Nature, I admire your willingness to give this a try. I don't know when I'll get to participate.... believe it or not, I've got some bigger issues to deal with than just Lyme, at the moment (yes, I know - hard to believe).
Please let us know your reactions to the MMS. I find that hearing experiences from real people can teach me things that reading a book, a website article, or a scientific study can't do.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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You can overload your kidneys and who knows what else if you promote too much die off at once.
I would reconsider starting out with 15 drops. My wife, who just started this treatment was in quite a lot of pain with two and three drops.
Lyme reproduces so slowly you really have nothing to gain by such a large beginning dose, but it could cause a lot of problems.
I do not want to see anyone getting hurt with this. Especially since it is quite powerful.
Good Luck
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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dmc
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I asked the question and boy it became an explosion. Wonderful- debate, advise, comments, info. Thank you.
Posts: 2675 | From ct, usa | Registered: Jan 2004
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Truthfinder
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Hey, NatureLover, I'm glad you decided to reconsider your initial.... enthusiasm.
It would be nice if hitting hard and fast were the ticket, but I don't recall reading about anyone who has tried that (with Lyme).
Even 7 drops is a fairly large dose, especially if you plan to do this every few hours.....
Looking forward to hearing your experiences (and your girlfriend's).
Oh, thanks for the update on Joyce (Healing in Santa Cruz) - I was wondering how she was doing. Now, the DMSO thing is quite interesting.......
D Bergy, how does your wife compare the effects of the MMS to the `herxes' from Rifing?
Hi, dmc! Quite a topic you started here.....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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When my wife uses the Rife machine, the herxes are just during the session and it takes away joint pain. Early on, the herx would last much longer.
The MMS makes virtually her whole body hurt. She has a lot of pain and stiffness in her spine. I do not ever remember anything that got Lyme in the spine before. The pain lasts 24 hours, but is tolerable. When she takes the next dose it increases. It seems to work long past the two hours it is supposed to last.
She has not done more than three drops so far. I don't think she could take any more than that and still function normally.
I am journaling the experience and I will post it after a few weeks.
Glad to hear moderation is being practiced. Keep in mind my son does not have Lyme so the chance of a bad herx was nil.
Just remembered that I got my blood test back and it showed nothing abnormal as far as the liver or anything else. I did have an increased white blood cell count from my last test. I took MMS at fifteen drops three days in a row before the blood was drawn. I do not have Lyme so this may be different for those that do, since i am not killing off spirochetes.
My Crohn's is not giving me any symptoms since I have used MMS.
Best Regards
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Still no symptoms of Crohn's, D Bergy!!! Wow. I'm impressed (hope you are, too).
I do hope you plan to do more MMS to make sure you get the `leftovers' of any of those parasites........
Interesting that your WBC is up..... my ex-boyfriend, who tested ultra-high on the Q-RIBb test exactly like I did, has almost no Lyme symptoms. BUT, when they check his WBC, it is always elevated. I think normal is below 10,000, and at one point, his was 19,000. The last one was around 14,000. I've always wondered if this isn't an indication that his immune system is fighting the Lyme, and mine just sort of gave up years ago.....
Thanks for the info about your wife's `herxes'. My back and spine problems are still my most disabling symptoms, so I can probably expect a similar experience to what your wife is going through.
NatureLover, I sort of suspected that you hadn't been ill for a long time..... good to hear! And perhaps hitting the bugs pretty hard right off the bat would be the best course of action for a recent infection/manifestation. I do see your line of thinking on this.
Thanks for the feedback on your first doses.... looking forward to more reports.
Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Thanks, NatureLover -
I'm trying to remember what has been said about mixing the MMS with juices..... there were some specifics about it that seemed pretty important. D Bergy probably remembers. There has been a lot of discussion about 'mixing' over on the MDI Yahoo group.
Hmmm. Are you going to be able to sort out the effects of the Polygonum versus the MMS?
I thought I would pass this on...... part of a message from Gobal Light Network (supplier of MMS and other products):
quote:The volume of business continues to expand as the excitement about MMS and all our other products seems to be exploding, and we are scrambling to keep up with the orders. We are so busy meeting the demand for the various MMS products, as well as all the others, that we are adding another assistant in the production warehouse next week.
.....Just one more comment before I leave the subject of MMS. If you have experienced good results with MMS, share your experience with one of the BLOGs or discussion groups on the Internet so that others can benefit from your experience. Perhaps you could share it with Jim Humble by sending him an email at [email protected], putting "Stories of Success" in the subject line.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Truthfinder
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NatureL, what are you using for the 'activator'? You aren't just mixing the MMS with juice, are you?
Where did you read about using juice?
I've got somewhere to be right now, but you really need to get some additional info on this - to be sure that what you are doing will WORK properly, for starters.
The place I've read about this was on the MDI Yahoo group - link posted on this thread somewhere. The discussion about mixing with juice, etc. started maybe 10 days ago? That's the only place I know to refer you!
Hopefully, I can get on later but gotta go for now....
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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I went back and TRIED to sort through posts at the MDI Yahoo group.... boy, what a pain.
Okay, when the discussion first started about using juice instead of water, the prevailing thought was that you had to use `fresh juice' - juice your own fruits. Apparently later, it seems okay to use store-bought juices (not citrus) as long as they don't have any added ascorbic acid or Vitamin C (which you already know).
I see that some people do continue to use just `fresh' juice.
That was my confusion - I wasn't sure just any commercial juice was acceptable. And one person did report that she started using juice because she had so much trouble taking the MMS mix otherwise, and thought that it really reduced the effectiveness, compared to what she had been experiencing previously.
One thing that might be helpful - some are buying RW Knudson's brand of Black Cherry Juice concentrate and adding a spoonful of the concentrate to the mix instead of juice. Another person recommended Bernard Jensen's Black Cherry Concentrate (or apple, grape or pomegranate).
I guess the main trick is to get as pure a juice as possible - no added stuff - and to avoid any juice with added Vitamin C or ascorbic acid.
Sorry if I jumped the gun on that, NatureLover. I really thought you had to make your own juice, or use something fancy from a health food store - like non-pasteurized. That was the impression I got early on in the discussion.
Gotta run!
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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You could also use vinegar intead of juice if you do not have yeast problems or squeeze a fresh lemon. Hiker53
-------------------- Hiker53
"God is light. In Him there is no darkness." 1John 1:5 Posts: 10205 | From Illinois | Registered: Aug 2004
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D Bergy
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I have been out of town to attend a funeral so I have not been at Lymenet for a while.
Thanks for the suggestion Arrowwind. I have been thinking along the same lines. We are kind of feeling are way around right now.
I did give Arrowwind permission to copy my post here and put it on the Health Salon site. It is one of the few sites with a collection of MMS testimonials. She is free to copy any of my posts as I completely trust her judgment in these matters. She also copied it in its entirety with the warnings as I would have expected. You will notice that she has not copied anyone else's experience from Lyment, since she only has my permission to copy my posts.
I know Arrowwind from three other health sites. I am a member of all these sites and she has proven to be a very honest and knowledgeable person who has helped me quite a bit in the past in understanding many different alternative treatments.
Arrowwind is here because she knows that there is an MMS thread going on here an she is trying to learn all she can about this experimental treatment from users. She encourages anyone who has had experience with MMS to post on the Health Salon site so all can benefit. That includes any negative experiences. No one wants anyone to get hurt, especially Arrowwind.
She was the one who explained what a Rife machine was when I knew nothing about them. She is a great person to have available for many health questions. She knows more about Ozone therapy than anyone else I know.
I have no idea who the person is who commented after my testimonial, but I am quite sure it is not Arrowwind. She would have used her own name.
Sodium Chlorite is an industrial chemical. We have used it at my work place in the past. It certainly is not a natural substance so I suppose you could say it is not meant to be used internally. What is actually being used is Chlorine Dioxide. This is not normally taken internally either. I guess none of us would take it internally without a good reason. Just as I would not expose myself to any other unnatural substance without some hope of a benefit.
I am not sure what scam you are referring to, so I really do not know how to respond to that comment. There are several sources for Sodium Chlorite and as long as that is what you are receiving when you order it, I do not see how it can be characterized as a scam.
I believe the reproduction time for a Lyme spirochete is 12 to 24 hours if I remember correctly. Very slow for a bacteria.
MMS is supposed to be mixed with fruit juice with no added vitamin C. Remember that Ascorbic acid is vitamin C.
It can also be mixed with vinegar, which is how I use it, or Citric Acid. It is supposed to be mixed and then sit for three minutes before use.
I think it is important to mix it correctly since it is not converted into Chlorine Dioxide otherwise. Although the stomach acid may do the conversion anyway. No point in risking it.
My wife had to give it a rest. The MMS is just too powerful for her to take continuously. This seems to indicate that the Rife machine is only getting a portion of the Lyme. I suspect that the MMS may be killing more than just the spirochete form since she never quit herxing. The Rife machine would only have worked for one session and then loses effectiveness. MMS seems to just keep killing day after day. This is only speculation at this point.
She may go back on it in a day or two. I would like to know more about the warning below before proceeding. She feels much better today after she stopped.
There have been a couple of warnings surfacing about possible Thyroid damage from using MMS. I have not heard any people reporting of actual damage so I am assuming this is a theoretical risk. Since no one knows what side effects could surface I feel I should mention this. If you can comprehend this study, I cannot, maybe they shed some light on this. Marnie may be able to summarize.
I am not using MMS now since my Crohn's symptoms are still non existent. I fully expect this is temporary, as the bacteria will surely re-establish itself given enough time. I simply have to use it again to get back to where I am today. I hope it is that easy. No way to know for sure. Just more speculation. More people would have to use it for my disease before I would assume it is a good treatment. But it does seem to work for me so far.
I hope everyone uses no more of this than needed to get the job done. I personally do not like taking it because it is so powerful. I am especially leery about giving it to my wife. If I had a more proven and safer method at my disposal I certainly would use it. I think we all need to be real careful with something so new and untested.
Thanks to everyone for all of the good information. This thread is a good learning experience for me. I am glad it has been so productive.
126 reponses, WoW! dmc started a good one.
Best Regards
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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Truthfinder
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D Bergy, I'm sorry to learn that you have recently returned from attending a funeral. My condolences go out to you.
My goodness, minitails, I do hope you will learn to use the PM system here at LymeNet. A simple Private Message to D Bergy would have cleared up most of your concerns.
Additionally, if you suspect someone of illicit or troll-like behavior here at LymeNet, Jenifer has asked that we NOT post about it, but report our suspicions directly to her so that the moderators can investigate the matter.
For clarification.....
I, too, know Arrow from my lurking in another 2 other forums (besides the HealthSalon site), so I've had an opportunity to observe her `in action' elsewhere. (I've seen D Bergy there, as well.) From my observations, she appears to possess a rather extensive working knowledge of many holistic and alternative practices that she has used for herself and for her family over the years.
Also, Arrow is not actually a new member.... she joined back in maybe August or September as ``Arrow'', then posted only occasionally. I don't think she ever posted to this thread as Arrow, but she did post in another MMS thread that was running about the same time in September. I suspect that she simply forgot her original Username and re-registered here at LymeNet recently. (A friend of mine had to do that, too, lol.)
Mini, you are new here at LymeNet, so you can't know some of what has transpired in the past. This is certainly not your fault, but you might want to take a slightly less aggressive stance when making some rather serious accusations against other posters. There really is some wisdom in obtaining plenty of information before taking action.
Oh, and one other little bit of misconception....
For those who have not been here long, by her own admission, Cave was warned numerous times by the moderators to stop posting comments on many alternative threads that usually caused the thread to be diverted from the original topic. People can only take so much before they feel the need to defend themselves and their treatment choices, and thus many alternative threads got deleted by the moderators because those topics dissolved into giant arguments. Understandably, the moderators struggled with this problem for a long time and finally had to take action.
Cave was not banned for her ideas or her skepticism; she was banned for her chronic behavior patterns that violated some basic LymeNet rules. That is an important distinction.
Mini said: ***''I also find it quite sad that you would just dismiss the thoughts and opinions, albeit wrapped in her own brand of humor, of a very intelligent 76 year old woman who no longer has lyme after a long struggle in which tried many things (that's Cave76).''***
Cave76 still has Lyme (or other TBD) and was STILL on antibiotics the last time the subject came up here on the board. By her own admission, she was on oral - and some IV - abx for about 10 years with no real improvement. Only in the past 2 or 3 years has her health improved significantly. In that respect, Cave deserves respect and admiration for hanging in there for what must have been a really tough battle. And apparently, she is still fighting and, hopefully, winning.
Putting Lyme into remission, feeling better, getting well - that's what it's all about.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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D Bergy
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Member # 9984
posted
I have no connection to any site other than posting on them. I think, but am not sure that Arrowwind is affiliated to the Health Salon site. She may even be the owner of the site. I do not remember, but MMS is just one subject on the site. It is dedicated to hard to find information on many alternatives. As with all alternative treatments, reader beware. I am quite sure there are several that do not work as advertised.
As it has many sources listed for MMS, I do not think anyone in particular is using the testimonials for selling MMS. It is just giving various sources for anyone that may wish to buy some. If there was one source listed, I would be a little more suspicious. I also give enough warnings that most people would likely not use it unless they are familiar with using unproven treatment methods. I do not think it is appropriate for most people.
I also do not sell or promote or have any connection or financial interest in any treatment.
I was offered a commission on selling the GB-4000 Rife machine by a member of the Rife forum. The nature of the offer was if I sent someone their way to purchase a machine, I in turn would receive a commission. I declined the offer because I did not need the commission in the first place, and it would cloud any report I had on the machine since now I would have had a financial interest in the matter. The person who made the offer then said they would donate whatever commission they had in mind to a financially strapped lady who had very little income. I said that would be OK with me. I have only recommended this person to people on the Rife Forum looking for the GB-4000. That way, I will know about any negative feedback if some problem arises. To my knowledge, I have not made any sales for the person anyway.
I really am not interested in selling anything. My interest is in what treatment really works, and what is a fraud concerning several diseases that affect my family. I just report the experience here for those who are interested. I used to just keep my experiences to myself, but that does not help anyone else.
I am not offended by the question. I have asked the same question of other people who are offering testimonials. I think it is important to know if a financial interest could be influencing someones opinion.
I do, on rare occasions try to set the record strait if a treatment method I am familiar with is being misrepresented. I am more interested in truthful discussion. Not so much about uninformed opinions.
I would be very interested in the Chemistry persons opinion on the method of action of MMS. If they would be so inclined to look into it a little further I think it could be helpful to all of us.
He could chew on this site for a while and see if it is a legit explanation or not.
Thank you minitails2 for asking the hard questions. We need the whole truth out there. If you are thinking something fishy is going on, many others are likely thinking the same thing. Better to get it out into the open for he record.
I also appreciate that you are looking out for others on the forum.
Cave seemed to quite often invade Truthfinders posts with an uninformed opinion on what ever was being discussed. It is one thing to say "I think it is a scam". Nothing wrong with that. But then to keep dogging the issue without a scrap of personal experience or expertise does not help anyone.
I also thought Cave brought up many good questions and subjects. I am not privy to why she was banned, but she helped a lot of people here judging by the response. I will leave the moderating to the moderators.
Best Regards
D Bergy
Posts: 2924 | From Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2006
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