posted
All I know is that my son was doing fine before his schedule of vaccines.
The first round clearly demarcated a decline. The second round resulted in full blown JRA. Not planning to see what the next round brings.
My theory is that the vaccines do no harm in healthy kids. But they can wreak havoc on children who are immune compromised and have dormant infections systemically like my son who probably was infected in utero.
This measles fiasco is going to make it a lot harder for parents like me trying to stave off disaster. I don't give a damn about herd immunity and all that. I just care about my son.
Posts: 655 | From USA | Registered: Sep 2007
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"If someone here is so supportive of Dr Wakefield, where are the peer-reviewed studies that confirms his hypothesis?"
You have not defended your statement that Dr. Wakefield has been proven a Fraud as the media hype would have us all believe.
Where is that proof that you would spread a defamatory statement like that?
There is tons of opinion and innuendo but I have not seen proof.
Please provide actual data. I'm not for or against any doctor -- but I don't believe the media hysteria either.
They lose me when they say measles vaccines or any others are proven safe -- why don't they tell the truth that there is always some risk with vaccines which everyone can read if you look in the manufacturers insert in the vaccine box which the medical professionals don't even give you unless you ask.
Brian Deer is the reporter hired by Rupert Murdoch’s son James Murdoch who is on the board of GlaxoSmithKline which makes the MMR.
Both the BMJ and Lancet journals serve as advertising forums for Merck and GlaxoSmithKline. So not too hard to get a paper removed questioning vaccine schedule. Accepting ad revenue from them would amount to conflict of interest would it not?
Anyway, all of us need to do our own research and make our own decisions as to vaccines.
You might like to read the court settlement admitting mmr damage to young Ryan here:
quote: There is also a link to Dr. THERESA DEISHER. She is developing clean vaccines for those parents that are interested. “Sound Choice Pharmaceutical Institute
It looks like Sound Choice's motivation is Pro-Life emphasis. Meaning, they are concerned about the ethical use of fetal stem cells that are left over in some viral lines. So they are motivated by other factors.
If people can produce purer vaccines that are just as effective, I think that is a win-win.
But the interesting thing about her study is that they didn’t do PCR on the DNA to prove that it was fetal DNA. So, we don't know if they are looking at fetal DNA or viral DNA.
Looking at the journal article, they did not show any gels demonstrating the claimed size of the DNA fragments either.
They used an ELISA for single and double stranded DNA. Ive run ELISA's before, its not enough to prove that they are measuring fetal DNA.
Human cells that can take up bits of DNA at very low rates do not integrate that DNA into their genome. So I am interested into how this researcher would pursue the link she is creating.
Especially since we have to assume that DNA could cross the blood-brain barrier (not proven) and get into neurons THEN actually recombine with host DNA sufficiently to cause neuroinflammation. And we haven't proved that chronic brain inflammation is even a cause of autism. This is a lot of Ifs.
The problem is they haven't demonstrated that there is a correlation..just some linear regression models. I will tip my hat off to her if she can design and implement more studies that corroborate her hypothesis.
I also wonder, if autism was on the rise before the fetal stem cells were detect in certain vaccines, then what is the relationship then?
I will definitely follow her work, but she needs to get more data that shows an actual link instead of a theoretical one.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
Maia, Some of the viruses used in some of the vaccines were also taken from aborted fetuses. I'm not sure if that is a variable that matters, or not.
Regarding her hypothesis, I know there is one lady out there now that is retired and says she has the proof. She used to work for a big vaccine company, and after retirement decided she wouldn't keep quiet about it anymore.
I'll have to find her name and the article. I'm not sure if she ever published her evidence, or what took place because I just didn't keep up with it.
I find some of the evidence related to different populations interesting. In populations without the vaccines there were zero cases of autism, but when vaccines were introduced suddenly autism shows up. I think those were the ones specifically with aborted fetal cell material.
I know that information is up on the site, but I'm not going to wade through it. =) Also, you can get one of the dvd's free if you call up COGFL and ask them to send it out to you. She goes through a detailed history of how each vaccine was made.
-------------------- Lyme flare June, July, August of 2013. Diagnosed September 2014 Lyme, Bartonella, Mycoplasma, Mono Posts: 595 | From Texas Crossroads | Registered: Oct 2014
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TNT
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 42349
posted
I'm too tired to reply to your "questions," Maia, but here are a couple links for you to consider:
I have more, but too tired to find. I know I saw it in the news about vaccinated kids getting measles and the unvaccinated ones not, but too tired to look further. It was in a New England state somewhere, I think Connecticut or Massachusetts.
quote:Brian Deer is the reporter hired by Rupert Murdoch’s son James Murdoch..
That is a very loose associated. Newscorp owns 132 papers worldwide. Working for one of Newscorps papers is not a link to GlaxoSmithKline, even if James Murdoch was a board member. Brian Deer was also working for Channel 4, a public-service television broadcaster. He also is responsible for pulling Septra off the market in the UK, a profitable drug of GlaxoSmithKline. I thought you had something legitimate, like being a paid consultant for a drug company
That being said, Brian Deer's work is based off of undisputed FOIA requests in the public record, even if you don't like him. I can link to some of those records he obtained below.
quote:Originally posted by Looking: You have not defended your statement that Dr. Wakefield has been proven a Fraud as the media hype would have us all believe.
I'm under the impression in the only one here who studied and works in the biological sciences.
First, no scientist not associated with Andrew Wakefield has ever been able to replicate his work . This is important, independent verification that duplicates the results. None of the studies you posted do that. I can go into them in more detail later.
Secondly, there are Conflicts of interest that make the ISDAs guidelines controversy look like child's play
1. Paid $400,000 UK Pounds by lawyers trying to prove that the vaccine was unsafe. Thus he had a direct personal & undeclared financial interest in his research totaling more than 8x times his reported annual salary. Incentive to keep the gravy train going, no?
2. The MMR findings in the Lancet were paid for through a law firm suing MMR manufacturers (confirmed by lawyer Richard Barr himself) He was paid $55,000. The school's dean, Professor Arie Zuckerman, questioned the arrangement on ethical grounds and the school rejected it. It had to be picked up by the hospital's chief executive, Martin Else, offering to pay it back to Wakefield as a "grant." This is an ethical breach never declared to the Lancet.
3. The children in the study used as evidence against the vaccine were also claimants in the lawsuit. They were not a series of kids with developmental disorders and digestive symptoms who came to the Hospital for care. There were 1,600 British families, recruited through media expecting to get a payout. This is public record as well. This is not good form in medical research.
4. In 1997~ 9 months before the press conference at which Wakefield called for single vaccines, he had filed a patent of his own supposedly "safer" single measles vaccine, which only stood a prospect of success if confidence in MMR was damaged. FOIA 4
A big problem is contaminated samples. Molecular tests carried out in Wakefields own lab had found no trace of measles in the children's guts and blood. That information came directly from Nick Chadwick, who worked under Wakefield. He checked Wakefields work at his request and did a PCR test which was negative. His tests were negative for measles as well. The results were printed in his thesis paper and a separate study of which the results contradicted Wakefields "findings":
This contamination was also independently verified by Stephen Bustin, known as top PCR expert. He examined the lab findings and procedures. He testified to his findings and determined that they were contaminated as no RNA was detected (measles is an RNA virus). Testimony is found in the Autism omnibus trial.
The last problematic aspect of the paper are mismatches between the lancet paper and the NHS medical records. There is a lot of documentation of some children have problems before given MMR, Wakefield reported as "previously normal" in the study. The BMJ cites examples from the parents own documentation and discharge papers:
quote: why don't they tell the truth that there is always some risk with vaccines
My doctors always hand me a paper listing the known complications from the particular vaccine they are talking to me about. I can only assume that the complications are so rare, that some doctors don't go into too much detail. That is wrong, but I have never encountered it.
Almost everything people claim about problems with their children after vaccination is anecdotal. Ive heard 12 hours, a few weeks, a few months after. It's pretty unconvincing. I suspect issues are higher here if we all suffer form Lyme. I can say my brother showed autistic symptoms before MMR, but I can see some parents not picking up on it till weeks or months after MMR vaccine and trying to blame that. It sounds better I guess?
It's also totally possible, but, not statistically significant if a study has never picked it up.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by TNT: I'm too tired to reply to your "questions," Maia, but here are a couple links for you to consider:
I can wait if you have answers at some point. I am always looking for more information.
quote:I think you have your work cut out for you with Looking's citations.
Not really, they are mostly a copy and pasted smokescreen created by someone. I am only interested in #6, 11 and 14 which I will respond to when I am not sleepy
I am ruling these as unrelated outright:
1. This study did not look for measles virus. Instead it looks at gastrointestinal (GI) malabsoption as an underlying mechanism for autism.
2. Wakefield is a co-author and 7 of the authors are also authors on the retracted paper in The Lancet. Not independent.
3. Wakefield (and Anthony) is a co-author, No independent support here as Wakefield et al. are the only researchers who have "found" the association.
4. Doesn't mention MMR, Wakefield is senior author, not independent findings.
5. Study did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus or administration of the MMR. Predates Lancet study as well (meaning not testing the hypothesis as it didn't exist before).
6. Will read more later
7. This study did not look for measles virus but evaluated inflammatory response to specific dietary proteins.
8. Same as #7
9. Author was a colleague of Andrew Wakefield, and Wakefield is an editor of Autism Insights.
10. This is a case report, featuring two adult patients with gastrointestinal problems and ASD diagnoses. The authors call for more investigations in the paper itself, but I fail to see what this has to do with MMR.
11. Will read later.
12. No MMR mentioned. Mentions Celiacs disease. Not related in any way.
13. Did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus. Study evaluated children previously diagnosed with developmental disorders for GI symptoms.
14. Will read later
15. This study did not look for measles virus. It evaluated 11 children’s response to a specific antibiotic. They are studying the disruption of indigenous gut flora, promoting colonization of neurotoxin-producing bacteria. They found that stopping the antibiotic looses the gains..thus there may be a gut flora-brain connection, which exacerbates autism symptoms. No connection to MMR here.
16. Predates the introduction of the MMR, Dr. Walker-Smith is a co-author of the retracted study in The Lancet, thus not independent even if it was about MMR.
17. Predates the introduction of the MMR, about childhood autism and adult schizophrenia.
18. Wakefield and 6 others from the Lancet paper are co-authors, not independent.
19. Wakefield et al AGAIN
20. This study did not look for measles virus, also previous co-authors with Wakefield. Not independent.
21. Previous co-authors with Wakefield (again, you can't confirm your own results).
22. Wakefield as senior author, therefore no independent replication of his results.
23. Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut.
24: Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus. Its a study of adults with autism on blood levels of amino acids, to assess whether altered glutamatergic neurotransmission was likely in autism. Nothing to do with MMR.
25.Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut. Describes how to do PCR for specific bacteria on stool samples of autistic and non autistic children. So...???
26. Study did not look for measles virus,mumps or rubella virus or anything connected with the gut.
27. Published by colleagues of Wakefield. I had to find a translation, but the summary is that the authors did not replicate Wakefields paper, though they do report a higher incidence of gastrointestinal problems in their autistic group. Not sure what this has to do with MMR.
28. Study did not look for measles virus, mumps or rubella virus. Study did not evaluate changes in gut structure.
If you have to ask why a paper authored by Wakefield is not ok, its because you can't confirm your own results. Co-authors and colleagues who worked with you are not independent either, especially if they are working with the same data or financially tied with you.
You need researchers not affiliated with Wakefield to independently collaborate the results. This doesn't exist, though there are plenty of studies that do not find a link ( I know of 5 offhand)
Also, many of those studies are about GI symptoms and autism. No one has ever said that autistic kids don't have GI complaints, including inflammation. Thus I am wondering what this has to do with MMR.
First you would have to repeat Wakefields study, find a link, then you would study whether or not all these papers on GI issues and Autism are relevant. Without Wakefield hypotheses confirmed, most of these papers are not relevant.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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You keep referring to discredited info Brian Deer was associated with. Paid hitman is what he is considered in Britain.
I cannot take anything he says as credible. He disgraced himself with the way he talked to the parents of disabled children and he is no doctor and he doesn't know what he is talking about.
Using your reasoning I would have to dismiss all your citations as coming from people against Wakefield, what a waste of time -- your mind is closed.
Those citations I gave you are credible even if you don't like it.
I for one do not find you a credible researcher.
Not wasting anymore time on this.
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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"We document here the occurrence of vaccine-derived rotavirus (RotaTeq [Merck and Co, Whitehouse Station, NJ]) transmission from a vaccinated infant to an older, unvaccinated sibling, resulting in symptomatic rotavirus gastroenteritis that required emergency department care."
"Results of our investigation suggest that reassortment between vaccine component strains of genotypes P7[5]G1 and P1A[8]G6 occurred during replication either in the vaccinated infant or in the older sibling, raising the possibility that this reassortment may have increased the virulence of the vaccine-derived virus."
"Additionally, A Nicaraguan study published in 2012 found "the widespread use of the RotaTeq vaccine has led to the introduction of vaccine genes into circulating human RVs.," revealing that the widespread introduction of the vaccine strain has altered the genetic makeup of wild-type rotavirus that now infects exposed populations.[3]"
I would imagine all of this applies to other live attenuated vaccines as well.
An interesting statement from Immunologist, Dr Tetyana Obukhanych
I am very concerned that “immunologic memory” of adjuvant-containing vaccines is actually the basis of sensitization rather than the basis of immunity.
Furthermore, I am very concerned that “successful” prevention of childhood diseases by means of short-term protective effects of live attenuated viral vaccines during childhood has led to the loss of maternal ability to transfer immuno-protection to their young, thereby leaving infants vulnerable to those diseases, should the exposure occur.
I am also very concerned that vaccination campaigns work by disrupting disease transmission, which reduces the chances of exposure, rather than by establishing a population’s immunity. By doing so, vaccination campaigns wipe out population’s immunity to childhood diseases rather than help to maintain it.
If in prior decades there was naturally established herd immunity to childhood diseases among the adult population, then I am afraid that vaccination campaigns have ensured that it is long gone."
-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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quote:Originally posted by Looking: [QB] Wow, Maia:
You keep referring to discredited info Brian Deer was associated with. Paid hitman is what he is considered in Britain.
His links are to Freedom of information act documents. They have nothing to do with Brian Deer. They are 100% real and in the public record. His website hosts the documents for retrieval only, so your thoughts on him are irrelevant.
Provide documentation for why you think he is discredited?
You have not proven that he is a hitman. He worked for a public TV station and a newspaper that was owned by Newscorp. He also did a hitpiece on the company you purport he is a "stooge" for. He can't work for a company than turn around and work against it. Also, if he worked for a company, he would be paid by them. Come back at me with something that actually makes sense, because I sincerely cannot follow your logic.
quote: He disgraced himself with the way he talked to the parents
You do know that those parents were expecting to get a settlement from a lawsuit? Of course they might not like the person who they believe kept them from their millions. DUH. Usually, when you run a study, you don't fill it with people expecting a financial windfall, its supposed to be a random sample. And it also doesn't explain why NHS documents and study documents do not have the same information. This was collaborated with the Hospitals own discharge papers. You can't support a study that has conflicting information like that.
It looks like your mind is the one that is closed here. I don't think you even understand the controversy.
A huge percentage of those links you gave, have nothing to do with MMR. So I wonder what YOU think they are collaborating?
A portion of them are references to Wakefields own work and that of his colleagues:
1. You CAN'T confirm your own results. Why you would think this is legit shows you don't have a grasp of medical literature and what peer reviewed independent research is. A lab cannot create its own studies that confirm themselves. An obvious reason is contamination of samples, which is something that was actually found to be a problem by Wakefield own grad student and an independent analysis by a top PCR expert. Thus you have to have ANOTHER lab perform the same study and repeat it. This has not happened.
2. Co-authors and colleagues who worked with you are not independent because they are working with the same data and/or financially tied with you. This should be completely obvious. I can't help you if you don't understand.
There is no Wakefield conspiracy. If he was on to something, it will be found. He f-ed up with contaminated samples (which he knowingly used according to his own lab) and was paid huge sums of money to come up with his results. HUGE conflict of interest. If you are giving him a pass, then I hope to never see you here comment on the ISDA guidelines and conflicts of interest, because you will be outing yourself as the worlds biggest hypocrite.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Looking: Wow, Maia: Using your reasoning I would have to dismiss all your citations as coming from people against Wakefield, what a waste of time -- your mind is closed.
That is not how science works. I didn't dismiss citations because it was "FOR" or I didn't 'like it.' It was because as I stated above, you can't confirm your own data. Period. Think about it. If we only allowed ONE lab to provide a definitive answer, we would be in a ****load of trouble if it turned out they had sample contamination or error in process or researcher.
There is also not a pile of citations for the express purpose of being "against." Scientists don't sit around coming up with work that deliberately goes against someone they don't like. The data does the talking.
If the data showed that Wakefield was right, it would. When no one could reproduce his work, it likely made people wonder what exactly had happened. An investigation highlighted all the issues, but if you want to pretend it was all some elaborate hitjob, fine. How are those aliens in roswell, BTW?
We have multiple studies combing a decades worth of data that can't reproduce his work, thus there is no significant association.
quote:I for one do not find you a credible researcher. Not wasting anymore time on this.
If you don't understand how science works, insulting me isn't going to help. How old are you? Maybe tone down the emotion.
As a promised, here are the only studies in your list worth mentioning:
The study does not reinforce Wakefield findings, but says: "The antibody to this antigen was found in 83% of autistic children but not in normal children or siblings of autistic children. Thus autistic children have a hyperimmune response to measles virus, which in the absence of a wild type of measles infection might be a sign of an abnormal immune reaction to the vaccine strain or virus reactivation."
What the study is finding is that there may be a hyperimmune response to measles in children with autism versus controls, not that the vaccine causes autism.
The study itself sources data from Wakefield study (problematic) but states " Initial attempts were made to isolate measles virus from peripheral blood mononuclear cells and gut biopsies; however, the results are quite controversial and nonconclusive."
This paper is actually a summary. The assertions are not supported by the evidence in the paper. They state in the conclusions, Based on our laboratory data on virus and vaccine serology, we suggest that AAD is likely triggered by a virus, and that measles virus (MV and/or MMR vaccine) might be a very good candidate; however, more experimental research is needed to firmly establish the pathogenic link of measles virus with this brain disorder "
They also say we need to look into other infectious agents as well. This study does not support Wakefields hypothesis, so on its own it needs to be independently reproduced.
Someone actually took this idea further and could not find the link they were speculating on:
14: This is not even looking at the link between MMR and autism. It is a speculative paper presenting the hypothesis that autism symptoms are caused by a subacute, chronic tetanus infection. So not related in any way.
It says,
quote: "A significant percentage of individuals with autism have a history of extensive antibiotic use. Oral antibiotics significantly disrupt protective intestinal microbiota, creating a favorable environment for colonization by opportunistic pathogens."
It might be relevant if you have a child with extensive antibiotic usage from a young age and you are worrying about a viral or bacterial induced disruption.
Looking, if you think one of those papers prove something, you should state it. I assume you just copy and pasted it from somewhere and don't actually know what they say, since you included papers that have nothing to do with MMR. Looks like the Anti-vax movement doesn't have to try very hard to get people to promulgate their 'facts.' They get people to pass it on without even reading them! Talk about "stooge."
Lastly, I am open to a small subset of patients having viral or antigen induce autoimmunity. I have read studies that support this theory in utero, I haven't seen studies that support it after birth.
If it is a thing, it's likely such a small subset of the population, it is near impossible so far to ferret out. And we don't know if those people had a pre-existing condition or were genetically predisposed to have autism. What is clear so far is, the MMR vaccine is safe for healthy people as far as we know.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Quote: "What is clear so far is, the MMR vaccine is safe for healthy people as far as we know." (end quote)
Not good enough. That is just leaving the "small subset" of the population who have trouble to suffer.
Any vaccine on the market should be safe for all - not just for "healthy people." Actually, I'd say they may also be just "lucky people" too.
Some may do just fine. Others have not.
The list of additives is just staggering. So this is not so much about the vaccine theory in general as the additives.
If some can't metabolize those as well as others, or some have variations of any kind in how they may react, they still really must be considered.
That most do okay is just not good enough.
And, we just can't know all the way the additives may be affecting those who don't show immediate and acute reactions.
My body and brain have been very much damaged - several times - from vaccines over the decades. At least 4 times (various vaccines), it was very clearly the cause, with severe neurological symptoms within one hour of a tetanus shot, and damage that has lasted since 1987.
And, I've seen it happen in a little boy of a friend, too.
Now, they have removed the mercury for some vaccines and that's a good move. Yet aluminum and other neurotoxic agents remain.
Formaldehyde in in many vaccines.
Full disclosure is not happening. Instead, it takes a great deal of work to find out just what is in each one. And most people won't / can't do that. They don't have time, energy, money to take the time.
Media is not going to do that, either. Sadly.
There has simply, absolutely, got to be a safer way for all.
Not just for most people, not just for the lucky ones. For everyone to know beforehand that there are no toxic ingredients and that it will be safe.
An absolute guarantee for whatever is put in anyone's body - from independent 3rd, 4th & 5th parties of a consumer's choice - not just from the government, the government media puppets or the manufacturers.
I certainly cannot stand for anything less.
The work that Robert Kennedy, Jr. did with & to highlight many who documented concerns and issues was stellar. There is such a large body of work that is simply being discounted and, instead, an out and out bully war for those who have given this good consideration and want to have a choice. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
My son had the mmr at 1-year-old and it sent him off into La-La Land. Our home movies clearly show his reaction to that gd vaccine. The next scene in the videos, a few days after the jab, shows him perseverating over opening and closing doors. At 2, he officially received the ASD label. At 5, he had his first solid stool when his DAN! doctor gave him diflucan. At 6, he tested positive for lyme, babesia, and bartonella. It was congenital as his mother had a deer tick on her in the '80s and never treated it. She subsequently tested positive for borrelia.
How the hell is an infant with a developing immune system suppose to fight off live injected viruses and bacteria when they are already trying to fight off lyme and co-infections? It's immoral and should be criminal for doctors to do this without first testing babies for latent infections.
Vaccines are so 20th century anyway. What we need are effective antivirals and better abx to kill off these intruders inside of us without causing us harm.
Here's a link to an experimental antiviral for measles:
posted
Maia, keep cherry picking your info if it makes you happy-- you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
Re Ryans case I linked to above (he's not the only one):
"On June 9, 2011, respondent (secretary of health and human services) filed a supplemental report pursuant to Vaccine Rule 4(c) stating it was respondent’s view that Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine.
A lump sum payment of $969,474.91, in the form of a check payable to petitioners guardian(s)/conservator(s) of Ryan"
excerpt from actual court documents. --------------------
A recent court case was in Italy but you won't see media over here covering it.
MMR vaccine (Italy)
Valentino developed autism and, in a landmark judgment, a judge has ruled that his devastating disability was provoked by the inoculation against measles, mumps and rubella (MMR).
Judge Lucio Ardigo, awarding compensation to the family said it was ‘conclusively established’ that Valentino had suffered from an ‘autistic disorder associated with medium cognitive delay’ and his illness, as Dr Barboni stated, was linked to receiving MMR.
Are you now going to say these court decisions do not exist.
Since Wakefield wanted single shots not combined, how he has become anti-vaccine is absurd. ------------------------
You are now making up future conversations about IDSA that has nothing to do with this -- don't know how your mind went there -- sorry, that doesn't make sense to me.
As always people need to do their own research and make up their own minds in caring for themselves.
Have fun with your "research".
If you want an actual scientists point of view, you could read Dr. Hooker's experience dealing with FOIA requests to the CDC and how they were less than forthcoming:
Dr. Hooker has submitted over 100 FOIA requests to the CDC over the past 10 years and has amassed thousands of pages of documents showing malfeasance in the CDC's vaccine safety program.
Hooker revealed that one CDC document quoted a top official instructing CDC employees to "Review all correspondences and documents to see if there is 'foreseeable harm' to the agency if they were released" so the documents could be redacted by CDC attorneys prior to release.
Here's his article:
Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe
beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
quote:Originally posted by Maia_Azure:
quote:Originally posted by beaches: I really wonder why some people are here. #agendas
Right beaches, because you are the only one allowed to have an opinion. Everyone who suffers from Lyme must conform to YOUR viewpoint. Way to be rude. #whatsyouragenda?
For the record, my agenda is science literacy. And creating arguments based on scientific evidence, not some mommy wellness blog pulling conspiracy theories off the world wide web.
As Lyme sufferers, most of us have had encounters with medical professionals that cause some level of mistrust for doctors and scientists. So I see the parallels to the anti-vaccination movement.
But that movement itself is anti-establishment driven. Anti vaxxers think there is a mysterious medical conspiracy to push vaccines and that they're part of the small group who really "sees" the truth.
So there is no way to have a rational discussion with people who feel that way. I don't believe for a second that my pediatrician was part of some conspiracy pushing dangerous vaccines on me for Big Pharma's bottom line.
Why? Because vaccines overwhelmingly work and absolutely reduced and eradicated many childhood diseases that caused a lot of harm. That doesn't mean there are not risks. But I don't believe doctors are nefarious and would willingly inject poisons into children. Their data shows that it's safe. Until it's proved otherwise, they will promote them.
I believe in alternative therapy wholeheartedly, but not the underlining assumption that getting sick is your fault and you can prevent it in ALL cases.
I find that many people eschew vaccines are highly educated and wealthy. They honestly don't think their children will be exposed, or if so, it will be a big deal. They may believe that their kombucha, and probiotics, colonic cleanses and weekly adjustments at the chiropractors will keep their immune systems so healthy that they will just fight off measles and whopping cough.
And it may be, that we need to see a return of these diseases before people get it. Which is unfortunate because, we COULD eradicate many more like smallpox.
That being said, I do think there are many unnecessary vaccines. I think the flu shot is B.S. and it doesn't work well. But Whopping cough? My best friend got it as an adult, broke 1 rib and has had asthma ever since. Just because a disease doesn't kill you doesn't mean it's healthy to get.
---------------------------------------------
Oh yes Maia, absolutely! I am the ONLY one allowed to have an opinion and everyone here must conform to MY viewpoint! Where'd you pull THAT one from?
Mommy wellness blog? Really? Anti-establishment? Anti-vaxxer? You are quite something with your assertions!
Has ANYONE here claimed that kombucha, probiotics and chiropractic fight off measles?
Oh and about your friend coming down with asthma after whooping cough, do you have scientific evidence to prove that? I would say that could be simply coincidence. Afterall, we all know people who develop adult-onset asthma.
Oh and back to agendas and what-not. I am sure if you do a statistical analysis of my posts vs. yours, you would easily determine that the vast majority of yours are about vaccines. #agenda
Again to the parents, don't waste your time arguing with this person. You know your children better than anyone.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
I find it a little odd that this kind of argument perpetuates in a forum where most members' and/or their loved ones' lives have been tragically altered by lyme disease.
I would not consider us a subset of the general well population that needs a convincing argument in support of vaccination. Many of us, especially those with children, have experienced first hand how vaccines can harm.
While it may be true that vaccines are seemingly benign for the majority, people with TBD's are a pretty specific immunocompromised group. We still don't understand everything about TBD's, much less how their effect on the immune system interplays with vaccinations.
It's hard enough to find a doctor that knows how to treat lyme properly, so I'm not really comfortable trusting most docs' opinions on whether or not I should get that shot.
Posts: 474 | From US | Registered: May 2014
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“This is a must see film,” says Congressman Dan Burton (R-Ind. 1983-2013), who was the Chairman of the Government Reform and Oversight Committee that led a four year investigation into vaccines and autism. “There is no doubt in my mind that mercury is a major contributing factor in the autism epidemic.”
randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
jus curious. it was considered "extinct" almost and now it ain't. seems odd..
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It was never "extinct" - it seemed nearly eliminated for a couple of years, though there could be many variable involved there.
This explains a lot about the current situation.
Numbers behind some excerpts are for the citation, you can to right to the end of the article to see the source.
Be especially mindful of the text jumps indicated by each ellipsis [. . .] - because much has been omitted reposted snippets, and I may have overstepped on how much has been reposted so be sure to go to the link and read the full article. A few key points:
Measles in Disneyland: Third MMR Shot and Vaccine Exemption Ban
Measles Vaccine Failing
- By Barbara Loe Fisher - February 10, 2015
Excerpts -
. . . The CDC says that 12 percent of the measles cases associated with Disneyland were vaccinated, some of them with at least two doses of MMR vaccine.50 . . .
. . . Inconvenient Scientific Truths About Measles Vaccine
The inconvenient scientific truth about measles in Disneyland and around the world is that public health doctors do not know how many vaccinated people can be infected with measles, show few or no symptoms and transmit measles to other people.63
Government health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of vaccinated people to find out if they are experiencing asymptomatic or atypical measles and transmitting it to others.
In addition, there are published studies demonstrating that people given live virus measles vaccine can be infected with vaccine strain measles virus and shed vaccine strain measles virus.64,65,66
Health officials do not conduct routine active surveillance of people getting live MMR vaccine to monitor for vaccine strain measles virus infection, shedding and the potential for transmission.
Is It Measles or Something Else?
. . . Yes, MMR vaccine can cause vaccine strain measles infection that looks just like measles.68
Plus, other common viral infections – like adenovirus infections – can look just like measles with rash, fever and conjunctivitis symptoms69,70
and be misdiagnosed as measles UNLESS there is expensive RNA lab testing done to confirm that what looks like measles really is wild type measles.71 . . .
. . . Using Disneyland to Move the Goalposts . . .
. . . That third MMR shot is coming to America and so is a massive Pharma-led lobby attempt to demonize and punish76,77 all Americans who defend the human right to exercise informed consent to medical risk-taking, including vaccine risk-taking.78
The calls to strike down those who do not use every dose of the growing list of government-mandated vaccines, is on a fast track.79,80
It will include banning the unvaccinated from exercising the right to get a public education, medical care,81 employment, and many other human and civil rights. . . .
. . . Go to NVICAdvocacy.org and learn how you can take action to protect vaccine exemptions in your state. Learn more about the risks and complications of measles and measles vaccine on NVIC.org.
And if you or your child has been vaccinated and the vaccine failed to protect you or caused harm, you can make a report to NVIC and share your experience with others on NVIC.org.
It's your health. Your family. Your choice.
Protect Your Right to Informed Consent and Defend Vaccine Exemptions . . . .
. . . Internet Resources Where You Can Learn More . . . . [What you can do]
Links 2/3 of the way down -
Again, remember that this is not necessarily about vaccine theory as about all the ingredients combined. But it is about freedom to know.
To complement this article, he excellent link "Looking" posted above:
[ 02-10-2015, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- I was in about 5th grade when the measles vaccine came out. And, you know what. Up until that time, measles was NOT nearly as contagious as the media / gov't is saying.
Sure, there were a couple kids in a classroom, or within families that got it around the same time as others but not at all a large percentage even within families. Mine included. Same for mumps & chicken pox.
Preventing potentially serious disease is a good thing. Absolutely. And I'm not saying it's not.
And there are many ways to work on that (giving someone neurotoxins is not one, though so that stuff does not belong in there) -
- and there some good ways to also address viruses that regular doctors don't even consider but naturopathic doctors do. The old "oh, there is no treatment for a virus" is just a lazy lie.
And to add acetaminophen just complicates a person's health, possibly very seriously.
But the full on panic in the press right now is just thick with manipulation. They are not reaching out for a full research method.
Another concern:
Elders and disabled are also at risk regarding their right to be informed and the right of choice on this issue if they are receiving service / care / lodging in any formal setting.
While many have received a full round of vaccines by the time they reach this point, now that the government is looking to make sure everyone who's breathing take a new round (beyond the yearly flu shots), all bets are off as to exact plans.
And many of them have serious immune system reasons for not receiving vaccines yet also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives. Aluminum & formaldehyde are just two of many. -
[ 02-10-2015, 07:54 PM: Message edited by: Keebler ]
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
So since the MMR shot is not effective in a number of people, we should subject them to this poor performing vaccine a third time now.
And if the ineffectiveness continues should we up that to 4 or 5 shots?
That should make a lot more money for the vaccine sellers.
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
Good points Keebler and Looking.
One of my kids had 2 MMRs per vaccine schedule only to be left without immunity by senior year in HS. Got another shot.
Thankfully (?) at least at that time one could get just the measles shot without the Mumps or Rubella portion. Now there is no longer a stand alone measles shot.
So even if you decide to get a measles booster, those other shots are coming along for the ride, whether you need them or not.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?
Allegedly, the mumps vaccine may have been a fraud for the last 10 years due to not being very effective and it is now before the courts due to whistleblower complaints.
Merck tried to have it dismissed but lost on 1 count so that part is apparently going ahead.
They are accused of knowingly fabricating it's efficacy at 95% in order to get contracts with the gov't.
The court document is long so here is the relevant part:
The Court is unmoved by Defendant’s (Merck) argument. Here, Plaintiffs allege that “as a direct and proximate result” of Defendant’s “misrepresentations and omissions” they were deceived into purchasing Defendant’s product. (Dkt. No. 26 ¶ 168.)
They allege that they “would not have purchased or used Mumps Vaccine had they known the truth” about its efficacy. (Dkt. No. 26 ¶ 167.)
Courts have found that this direct causation argument is sufficient to survive a motion to dismiss. --------
Apparently Merck falsified test results and sold millions of doses of "questionable efficacy," flooding and monopolizing the market, a primary caregiver claims in a federal antitrust class action.
I'm no lawyer, but that's my understanding of it.
Here is the synopsis in plain english, short and easy to read:
quote:Originally posted by Maia_Azure: [QUOTE]Originally posted by rowingmom: I am very concerned that “successful” prevention of childhood diseases by means of short-term protective effects of live attenuated viral vaccines during childhood has led to the loss of maternal ability to transfer immuno-protection to their young, thereby leaving infants vulnerable to those diseases, should the exposure occur.
Passive immunity from the mother only lasts a few weeks. You could get a booster while pregnant or right after birth to stimulate the response. They do that with pertussis.
quote:By doing so, vaccination campaigns wipe out population’s immunity to childhood diseases rather than help to maintain it.
Before vaccines, the only way to become immune to a disease was to actually get it and, with luck, survive. A vaccine is either a live, weak virus, attenuated, or dead. Or it can be viral proteins, etc.
Vaccines are in effect simulating the humoral antibody response. The macrophages find the vaccine, display the antigens to lymphocytes (B and T cells) that secrete the antigens. When this "disease" is fought off, B cells and T cells convert into memory cells. These cells will circulate through your body for the rest of your life. To restimulate a waning response, you get a booster (Some people who aquire the disease can lose immunity as well, its not just a vaccine thing).
There isn't a natural immunity to whopping cough or smallpox, once your maternal antibodies wore off, you have no immunity. You were just as susceptible to contracting it.
Even if over time a population of people who survived a disease had a better chance of passing on recovery to their progeny, I'm perplexed at why you think we need immunity to a disease that we have eradicated.
Diseases are fighting for survival. Remove their reservoir, and they die out. If somehow, smallpox appeared, all you would need to do would be to revaccinate to maintain immunity.
The whole point of vaccination is to build up kids immunity in a controlled and less medically risky way. It's the same humoral antibody response as when you get the disease, without the same risk as the disease itself.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by randibear: yes but where did itcome from??? why california??? something doesnt add up..
It was eradicated in the US in the early 2000s. It still exists in other parts of the world and causes death in the 3rd world. It re-appeared in California because an unvaccinated international traveler brought it into the country.
CA is a good spreading zone because there are pretty high pockets of unvaccinated individuals, especially in Orange County.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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quote:Originally posted by Looking: Maia, keep cherry picking your info if it makes you happy-- you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
I am not cherry picking data, Ive actually read the data. You haven't found an independent study that back's up Wakefields hypothesis. 75 studies and counting have not found the link he hypothesized.
The other point you fail to acknowledge is that Wakfield was paid over half a million dollars to do the 'study' by people looking to sue the manufacturer of the vaccines. He was paid over 50,000 by lawyers representing families, and also filled his study with these plaintiffs. He also stood to make money with a single dose vaccine. If we changed the circumstances to Lyme, people here would consider him a pariah. Thats the link to the ISDA.
Yes, he wasn't anti-vaccination. But he never proved his link between gastroenteritis and MMR and autism. So there is no medical need as of yet for a single dose shot. Having a one shot reduces the amount of visits to the doctor and shots you need AND exposure to additives.
quote:you don't even comment on the fact that vaccine courts have admitted that vaccines have caused harm.
Because it's not relevant. I don't know kind of doctor you go to, but every time I have been vaccinated I received information on the benefits and risks. Its not a conspiracy, its well known that vaccines have side effects. That's why VAERS exists, and the vaccine court.
quote:Ryan suffered a Table injury under the Vaccine Act – namely, an encephalitis within five to fifteen days following receipt of the December 19, 2003 MMR vaccine.
It is documented that in incredibly rare cases, encephalopathy can occur after vaccination. This is a known risk. Awarding parents money if a court determines this happened, is not proof that it caused autism.
Children who develop encephalitis have been shown to have a genetic mutation. Mitochondrial disorders are rare, predominantly genetic diseases. Measles causes encephalitis as well, thus you have higher risk of it from measles vs the vaccine hands down.
quote:A recent court case was in Italy but you won't see media over here covering it. Are you now going to say these court decisions do not exist.
No, but a Court case is not proof of an autism link, especially because they used the retracted Wakefield paper as a basis of their ruling. Courts decide on the law, not on deciding the value of scientific evidence. Science doesn't rely on a panel of non-experts (a jury) to determine which side's evidence is better. That would be scary, indeed.
Its also worth noting that Luca Ventaloro is a well known Italian anti-vaccine advocate and his "expert medical witness" was Massimo Montinari, who has not authored any biomedical research papers on autism, MMR or vaccines. He does sell his own autism "cure" protocol, if you are wondering.
quote:If you want an actual scientists point of view, you could read Dr. Hooker's experience dealing with FOIA requests to the CDC and how they were less than forthcoming:
Dr. Hooker is an engineer with no background in any of the key areas of study regarding vaccines: immunology, virology, microbiology, epidemiology, or even public health. So how he is an 'actual scientist' is anyone's guess. His paper based on the CDC data was also retracted due to issues in the peer review process and concerns about the validity of the methods and statistical analysis:
He reanalyzed a Destefano case-control studythat had found no statistically significant correlations between MMR and autism. Hooker took the data and created a cohort study. He then performed multiple subset analyses, a method prone to false negatives and positives. Pretty slippery, eh?
quote: Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe
This paper (not a study) presents no original data and critiques other epidemiological studies in an effort to create a conspiracy at the CDC. Two of the authors have legal trouble for pushing a dangerous and harmful "cure" for autism.
Mark Geier chairs the Institute of Chronic Illnesses, where he approves his own "studies." They also purport to cure autism with heavy metal chelation. Mr. Geier had his license to practice medicine suspended due his "Lupron protocol" and the way he misdiagnosed children in order to prescribe Lupron. Thus they treated disabled children with a drug for which there was no clinical need.
Brian Hooker was a board member of Focus Autism, so if you follow the money trail, they all stand to make it peddling their claims. Lisa Sykes is a pastor so I am unsure what her medical credentials are.
Even if we ignore their financial incentives and lack of medical qualifications, I'd like to see real data from them. Otherwise their claims of a CDC conspiracy are just rantings on the internet to line their pockets.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Keebler: - I was in about 5th grade when the measles vaccine came out. And, you know what. Up until that time, measles was NOT nearly as contagious as the media / gov't is saying.
My mother had the measles before the vaccine came out. Also whopping cough. Back then, it was highly contagious and very common. I'm not sure why you would claim it "wasn't contagious." A claim you've created as a 5th grade witness?
quote:- and there some good ways to also address viruses that regular doctors don't even consider but naturopathic doctors do. The old "oh, there is no treatment for a virus" is just a lazy lie.
I see a naturalpath doctor. However, they don't have the power to protect you from contagious virulent diseases upon exposure. A naturalpath who claims that is being disingenuous.
quote: While many have received a full round of vaccines by the time they reach this point, now that the government is looking to make sure everyone who's breathing take a new round
Why would they do that? The measles vaccine is 97% effective, despite someone claiming below the shot is not effective. No one is going to force you to get a booster.
quote:And many of them have serious immune system reasons for not receiving vaccines yet also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives.
People with immune complications should not receive vaccinations and would get an medical exemption.
quote:Also of concern is the matter of the neurotoxic additives. Aluminum & formaldehyde are just two of many.
My problem with the debate is that first, it was vaccines and autism. Since that link has never been found, the goal posts were moved. Then it became, the overwhelming schedule! Well, despite more vaccines in the schedule today, there are less antigens overall than in the 1990s.
Then we want single shots! Why do you want a single dose shot? The human body has the power to repsond to a million antigens at any given time, what is a 3 dose vaccine going to do?
Finally, why do people want a single dose vaccine, then turn around and complain about toxins? More shots = more toxins?
Also, you mentioned formaldehyde. You have more naturally circulating in your body from metabolism on any given day than the shot would give you.
I am 100% for removing an additive if it is found to cause problems. Which specific ones are you concerned about?
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Looking: Shocker: Why don't we see this on the news?
Ive read about it. Apparently the vaccine to the mumps wears off over time. The effectiveness is approximately 85-88%, Merck’s data for mumps is on the upper end of the statistical errors for independent research.
If the vaccine is not as effective as thought, it would mean that booster shots would be in order. Also, the course and severity of the mumps infection is less than those who were never vaccinated. So it does impart protection, even as it wanes. So I don't see it as some sort of scam.
The good news is, Merk isn't by themselves the only authority on vaccine effectiveness. Because we all know how trustworthy Big Pharma is.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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posted
Maia, you do go on and on. Is that 20 posts you've made on this thread -- I've kind of lost count.
No wonder people think you might have an agenda.
I know people get paid to post support on certain subjects, I sure hope you are not one of them.
Don't waste your time posting to me, I actually gave up reading your replies several posts ago.
You seem to think your opinion is more valuable than any professionals quoted here, I don't share that view.
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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quote:Originally posted by rowingmom: Maia - can you address this please, and explain why the same mode of transmission would not apply to other live attenuated vaccines, ie. MMR
Viral shedding has been observed with two vaccines, the live nasal spray flu vaccine and the rotavirus vaccine. Weakened viruses in live attenuated vaccines can shed, but in weakened amounts. I used to get a mild illness from the flu shot for this reason
A live, attenated vaccine causes a harmless infection. There is no proof that the MMR vaccine sheds the measles virus, spreading the disease prevented by the vaccine. Wouldn't that mean it is mutating back to a virulent state, and wouldn't parent notice the rash upon giving the shot?
Are you asking if the vaccine is spreading the virus? Since measles was eradicated here, I would say that doesn't seem likely. If people are catching a "mild" form of the disease from the shot, for the sake of argument..then, so? What would that mean? That we are getting a mild and benign virus instead of full blown measles and its complications?
I'm not saying all vaccines are created equal, but you need evidence to claim they are causing more harm then they prevent. Finding a handful of people with apparent harm out of millions that suffered no ill effects and were saved FROM harm is not really significant.
Mothers wanting to make informed decisions for their families does not mean you have to entertain the conspiracy theories they pull from the internet. Perhaps they feel attacked because they can't defend their assertions, or are highly suggestible to those theories so no, you will never convince them with facts. Some people just are a bit nutty.
Healhty skepticism is good, I have it for the flu shot. However, I don't use discredited studies and false facts to rationalize my beliefs, then imagine scenarios where the CDC and the Gov is out to get me. Not partaking in that is not rude, or misogynistic, as one member thinks.
And looking, its ok. I know you gave up reading because you don't have any responses to basic questions about your assertions. Your idea of a professional is, well, absurd. Two persons (hooker and Wakefield) who have had papers retracted due to issues with their credibility, both of whom either made or stand to make money off of their claims. And neither of which actually have any data supporting their claims. People who are peddling autism "cure" protocols. I mean, really!
I don't have an agenda, I just am home sick with a lot of free time, and get tired of misinformation. If it makes you feel better, you can believe all the ridiculous theories you want. I've just asked you for documentation, or an actual study with results. That kind of thing.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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'Kete-tracker
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 17189
posted
You get the measles vaccine & you MIGHT develop problems. OR- You MIGHT get measles, & then you MIGHT develop problems (or not).
So *why* risk complications from getting vaccinated, especially if getting the vaccine doesn't Guarantee not contracting measles later!??
I mean... D-U-H!!
Posts: 1233 | From Dover, NH | Registered: Sep 2008
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Maia,
I was there! That's how I can say that measles did not infect everyone at the same time (even at time before the vaccine was on the market). It was just a comment and one could go on to wonder about all the variables around that.
Not saying measles are not contagious (it is) just - even before vaccine - I was there and saw it sort of went in smaller groupings in families and school.
Yes, by 5th grade, age 11, memory forming does work by then. Talking with a sibling the other night confirmed the year as she was the one with the measles that year. Not the rest of us or the younger kids, though. We had those 2 years or so prior - and she did not catch it then though we shared a bedroom. Just a little puzzling. That's all.
And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.
There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
And, the point was not that I said they had some miracle at all. The point of what I was saying is that there are some anti-viral herbals that can help the body be strong and, if a virus is contracted, help as it manages through. That's all. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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TNT
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 42349
posted
quote:Originally posted by Keebler: And you say that you see a "A naturalpath" - and use that spelling several times.
There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
Can't get IDSA correct, either.
Posts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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posted
Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.
Posts: 60 | From Maine | Registered: Jan 2012
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quote:Originally posted by docluddite: Merck's package insert included with the MMR vaccine states that viral shedding has been noted after vaccination, of one or two of the constituent viruses, not measles. Merck has that disclosure on their website. If you exclude those too young for Measles vaccination from the total of those who contracted Measles linked to the Disney outbreak, close to 50% had at least one of the "recommended" doses. What that says to me is, vaccinated or not, if you are exposed to measles, there is a 50-50, or EVEN odds that you will get the illness. Doesn't inspire me to try to use vaccination to build up my immune system. There seems to be a media bias encouraging people to get vaccination. They are claiming that someone from abroad was patient zero, but nothing definitive has been stated on this regard. Related news stories are about parents of immune compromised children urging people to get vaccinated so protect their immune compromised child from being exposed. If their child is immune compromised, it is their responsibility to keep the child in a sterile environment until the compromised immune system has been restored to normal function. Other news stories seem to equate non-vaccinated individuals with carriers of all manner of "vaccine preventable" illnesses. Truth is, recently vaccinated children are more likely to be shedding virus than non-vaccinated, and since the vaccine manufacturers themselves claim that immunity wanes with time, most of the adult component of the general public is likely not immune to anything they were ever vaccinated for.
Thank you.
-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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randibear
Honored Contributor (10K+ posts)
Member # 11290
posted
I had it all -- measles. mumps. chicken pox and even mono...
because dad was military and we travelled worldwide I was vaccinated out the yingyang or I didn't go to school. I had to have those shot records.
no wonder I'm half crazy...
but the worst was a flu shot I got a couple of years ago. started a spiral downward of which I've never recovered.
doc wanted to give me a tetanus recently and I said hell no.
I'm not a mom but I don't see how y'all do it. I was bad enough with my dog. she sneezed and off to the vet! and she was not spoiled!!!
moms deserve all the help they can get. I miss mine every single minute.
-------------------- do not look back when the only course is forward Posts: 12262 | From texas | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Keebler: There is no such kind of doctor. Don't know who you've been seeing or their credentials but if it were a naturopathic doctor, likely the spelling would be clear.
Can't get IDSA correct, either.
That would be my neurolyme. But I appreciate being made fun of for having Lyme.
Because I employ a healthy dose a skepticism to claims that don't have a strong scientific basis, I am a troll, have a #agenda, not a "credible researcher," that i must be paid(please let me know where the gov can send checks to, as i am currently unemployed and would love to get paid)
I also cherry pick my data (despite having read all links given to me and written out my reasoning), that people shouldn't "waste their breath" just because I expect them to support their claims.
The cake is a am misogynist because I don't think blog posts written by random internet health guru's and moms is appropriate scientific evidence.
As I have maintained, I am open to a small subset of patients having viral or antigen induce autoimmunity. I completely agree that immune compromised individuals should be careful.
But, using retracted studies and posting ones that have nothing to do with MMR, and making unsubstantiated claims (that have been disproven any times over), I don't do. I worked in academia, I read pubmed for a living. 90% of the anti vaccination information is disingenuous, or shows a complete lack of understanding.
Today's immunization schedule calls for kids to get 55 doses of vaccines by age 6. Sounds scary until you realized that in the 1960s-1990s, kids were exposed to over 3,000 antigens and now its ~315.
The believed safety of vaccines is well studied, it's not nefarious. Some scientists are asking great questions. The fetal cells is interesting, so is certain additives like alum. I don't trust Big Pharma, or Big Herbal, or always the CDC. That's why we have researchers who extensively study this, ones that aren't affiliated with Big Pharma.
Every medical intervention has risks. Even antibiotics and aspirin. Just like vaccines, there are warnings on the labels. A young infant recently died from a contaminated probiotic supplement.
We eradicated diseases because of these vaccines along with improvements in public health. If you want to pretend that getting polio or smallpox or measles was no big deal, that's fine. But statistics don't lie, more people have been saved from death and serious complications than have been harmed, as far as we know.
If that's not good enough for you, then opt out and be glad its good enough for most other people, of whom protect yourselves and your children. The recent whopping cough and measles outbreaks confirm that once vaccination rates drop, it just takes an unvaccinated traveler or person with waning immunity to bring back an eradicated disease.
No amount of herbal drops and organic food protected me from Lyme once I contracted it. Upon exposure, measles is contagious. We know this, despite some of you claiming otherwise. Severity of disease is genetic and environmental.
A vaccine protects you from a disease better than any herbal remedies, because it mimics a natural response. Proving harm requires evidence, not anecdotal stories about autistic regression that occurred at completely varying time frames (days, weeks, months..) and ignoral of the purported genetic basis of some autism.
If there is a risk of exacerbating autistic symptoms in those who are predisposed, then that is important and would be grounds for testing to find out who should opt out. If vaccines can trigger autism in a small subset, we need to tease that out so we know what the risk factors are. We haven't found that link yet.
Unfortunately I think there is a strong bias against credible links because people are afraid of being tarred like Andrew Wakefield, even though he deserved it. The Pandemrix story comes to mind.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- It's not just about repeated misspelling, though as in the posts the concept of naturopathy does not seem to be fully understood in regards to the scope, the range, the various elements involved.
Most who have worked with a naturopathic physician come to understand the fuller scope in approach (and also where different kinds of medicine - allopathic & naturopathic - may work together).
It's not as easy as just taking this herb or that supplement after a certain infection has taken hold.
Mostly, it's about the individual, knowing them beforehand, and then if the get an acute infection, knowing what would work best for THEIR body. A more comprehensive approach.
Again, it's not so much about the vaccine theory (yet there are other approaches to support immune function, too) as much as the concern about additives and the risk they pose not just in one vaccine but in the dozens that that so many receive -- and how each individual person can or cannot manage, process those. Some just cannot.
There is no one-size-fits all approach to anything about medical care. We are fools to ever think there is and when we do - when we reduce all humans to pegs - it can really harm a lot of people who just don't fit into the perfectly round holes or neat squares. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
Really Maia? Your supposed neuro-lyme is the reason for your use of the term "naturalpath" several times?
I know all about neuro-lyme and your story just doesn't ring true.
You are new here and yet you opted to malign a broad group of people who happen to be mothers with your generalizations/assertions/assumptions about "mommy blogs" and the like.
Just for your information, typically the brain matter of mothers is not pushed out along with the baby.
In fact, women who become mothers often acquire knowledge through experience and real life. Go figure!
You have NO idea of anyone's education or professional affiliations here, yet you continue to assume yours are superior to others.
Perhaps it's time you lifted your head up and looked around.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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posted
I feel bad for anyone with neuro-lyme. Could be why much info posted is taken from inaccurate sites.
I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering. Biochemical engineers can work for biomedical firms, environmental companies etc.
And indeed a valid "scientist" with many papers on pubmed easily found, especially if one had once worked for them:
It goes without saying that taking down Hooker’s paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper. It could simply mean the publishers are being antagonized by industry supporters to the point they don't want to deal with it.
Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right??? Anyone resisting that viewpoint risks their medical practice.
That's how I see it anyway. Just IMHO.
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
As this seemed the place to do it, I am posting a link to "200 evidence based reasons not to vaccinate" from GreenMedInfo.
"...over 300 pages of study abstracts culled directly from the National Library of Medicine's pubmed.gov bibliographic database on the wide-ranging adverse health effects linked to vaccines in the today's schedule (over 200 distinct adverse effects, including death), as well as numerous studies related to vaccine contamination, and vaccine failure in highly vaccine compliant populations."
-------------------- 13 yo DX PANS/Tourette's/Asperger's/ADHD treated for Igenex positive bartonella/IND lyme with 2 years of abx treatment. Weaned off abx April 2013 at 80% improvement. Continuing with Buhner bartonella/babesia protocols. Aug 2014 99% improvement. Posts: 265 | From Canada, Ontario | Registered: Jul 2013
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beaches
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 38251
posted
I saw this too rowingmom.
Thanks for posting it, from one ignorant "mommy blogger" to another.
Posts: 1885 | From here | Registered: Jul 2012
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Keebler
Honored Contributor (25K+ posts)
Member # 12673
posted
- Suggestion for articles (or lists) with good detailed information.
Create your own file pages so if these disappear from the web, all is not lost.
Copy & paste those with the authors' names, dates, journal issue numbers, etc.
And the link, of course, on that page. But, sometimes these kinds of links will just disappear or some of the detail will be deleted.
This happened with some of the links that I had saved with Robert Kennedy, Jr.'s work on this topic. Just gone.
And it's happened with various links for herbal education articles that were very detailed. Just gone.
Also if you use "Tiny URL's" they often expire so be sure to save the full original link - exact title, author, etc. so that information might be searched in other ways if you ever need it.
When printing out detail, it can also help to be sure some of this identifying detail is with an article. Often the link will be printed on the page but not always. -
Posts: 48021 | From Tree House | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Looking: I just want to note that "Brian Hooker" has a phd in biochemical engineering.
Having over 50 science and engineering papers published in internationally recognized, peer-reviewed journals doesn't mean you are an expert in immunology, infection disease, virology, etc.
He may be a capable and smart guy in his chosen field, however, he needs to produce data that supports his current hypothesis. Not just critiquing other epidemiological studies. And that data needs to be reproduced, it's that simple.
quote:It goes without saying that taking down Hooker's paper, Methodological Issues and Evidence of Malfeasance in Research Purporting to Show Thimerosal in Vaccines Is Safe, doesn’t mean there is anything wrong with the paper.
Except for the fact that we DO know why the paper was retracted.
Medical studies can be retracted by the authors, if they feel some of their work won't stand up to scrutiny or want to re-work it. Wakefield's was retracted because he didn't disclose financial ties,falsified study data, and failed to disclose that his samples were contaminated. It also was never reproduced.
Brian Hooker's was retracted because upon review, he used poor methodology. He used a subset analysis that is prone to false positives, and it was incorrect for the type of data anyway. There is no "conspiracy" there. If he can re-work it and fix those errors, it could be published. My guess is he won't, cause he's been had.
Even IF it was true he only found "statistical significance" among African American males. That makes no sense unless you know he used poor methodology. He was able to rework the data till he found a positive, but only in one random subset of the population.
I think the problem with science currently is how hard it is to understand. Scientific findings cannot prove negatives. The layman also doesn't understand that abstracts get written and presented all the time. Sometimes, it looks like a researcher has found something amazing or alarming, a link might be associated with an event..but then subsequent studies fail to show a correlation.
Positive correlations becomes easier and easier to find the more ways the data is cut. There also can be selection bias, or difficulty in obtaining proper case controls. So you could find a study that purports to show a significant link to Hep B vaccine and MS, but upon multiple comparisons you find no link. Thus it did not stand up to statistical rigor. That doesn't mean the CDC is hiding the nefarious truth.
It also doesn't mean that HepB vaccine NEVER made someone more susceptible to MS, or that vaccine induced autism has NEVER occurred. Or that immunocompromosed individuals have no issues with vaccinations.
What it does mean is that for healthy people, vaccines are known to be overwhelmingly safe. Safer than many of the drugs we use to treat for medical conditions. And safer than getting the diseases them self.The problem is, we accept the side effects when we are treating for a problem we have, but it's much harder to accept them for something we MIGHT have, and something that we haven't seen kill people for decades. Its too abstract.
quote: Something like the pressure CDC applies to deny that lyme disease can be chronic. It's all gone after a few weeks of antibiotics -- Right???
The difference is, you can produce studies, and MANY of them that counter this thought process. Lyme disease sufferers do have evidence to back up their claims. The vaccine issue is prime terrain for biased and motivated reasoning. There is no evidence of wide scale harm, yet it doesn't stop the internet. And it harms actual people who have autism and how the medical community takes seriously links that do show causality.
-------------------- Sick since 2000 Bulls eye 2005 Dx Babesia, Lyme 2014 Posts: 247 | From New Hampshire | Registered: Aug 2014
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