Topic: Vitamin C/Salt Who is doing it and What do you know.?
oxygenbabe
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posted
A brief reappearance here writing on my iPhone.
Gael: stop accusing others of essentially lying (fear tactics with false anecdotes).
Go to the following two yahoo groups and register and do a search for posts on salt/c. Go to 'CFS-Experimental and to the Lyme and rife group.
Just from memory of who I emailed with after my disastrous experience:
Sara Robinson of Vancouver had ankle edema and was bexridden for three months after low doses.
Sue T who does the amy Yasko program had severe side effects and if memory serves, cortisol finally corrected it.
Kurt Rowley posted on his blog and on lymestrategies until he was banned. He had severe kidney pain and cardiac arrhythmias among other symptoms.
Hiker 53 here on lymenet had bad side effects but was banned from LS for discussing it.
Claudia was the women who got up to four grams then had a cardiac episode and cardiac problems thenceforth that had not cleared up 18 months later.
Selma(Brussels) simply had high bp and stopped (wisely).
The topic is banned from CanLyme because they feel the protocol is so dangerous.
I'm sure there are many more stories out there. On LS they tell people they're having kidney or heart herxes. Very dangerous and bad advice.
To deb, at one gram a day you're not killing Lyme anyway. As for worms it makes sense saltwater could kill gut worms. If that's the way you want to do it. Do I believe one single person had blue worms come out of her scalp and twenty inch worms inthe toilet and 'microscopic eggs' from the eyes ( how do you see them anyway if they're microscopic????). Hard to believe. Why start a group here when LS exists already? Whatever. dude,as they say.
[ 06. December 2008, 01:13 PM: Message edited by: oxygenbabe ]
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Why not?
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glm1111
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Brussels,
I appreciate your feedback. I also found it informative. Was not at all referring to you as giving a fear based report.
Did the doctors ever find out what the cause of hypertension in your family was from?
Hope you are doing well,
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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Keebler
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posted
-
People have died from salt poisoning. That is a verifiable fact.
Information is not fear-based. It is simply information. Knowledge can replace fear - knowledge about how something works in the body - how all the systems work in the body to do what is asked of it. And, when it has gone wrong for others, what were the mitigating circumstances so that a better outcome is possible.
Knowing about kidney damage - or how to prevent a heart attack - can help people learn so as to prevent that.
All I'm saying is that more education in the physiological processes is vital before people increase salt - regardless of how pure that salt may be.
As this thread may be one someone finds in a year or two, they may not have read about the cautions about salt poisoning at another thread.
This is not just for the small group doing this here and now - it will be a package for someone researching this in the future.
Having cautions as part of the education is not meant to induce fear but, rather, a healthy approach to researching a method that does have some risk.
glm1111
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posted
Keebler,
I think you misunderstand. By fear based I was not referring to concrete inormation.
I have done research also and the only information I have seen on salt poisoning was when it was purposely induced and caused severe hydration in young children.
Stating the information as verifiable does not make it so. I have nothing against antibiotics when appropriate or other allopathic medicine.
But why aren't you posting about all the "dire" side effects we hear and read about? It's just out of balance.
We are all intelligent and educated people here and have done our research.
I am going to move on with getting well.
How about you?
Gael
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oxygenbabe
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Perhaps you only used the words "salt poisoning."
If you want to educate yourself generally about the risks of excess salt, go to pubmed and put in the word "hypernatremia." Because that's the word doctors and scientists use for salt poisoning, essentially.
If you don't know how to get to pubmed then just go to google and type in "pubmed" and you'll get there. Pubmed gives you abstracts of peer reviewed scientific articles, i.e. LEGITIMATE research.
You will find about 2500 published peer reviewed articles there. You will have to go through a lot of them to find ones specifically about excess sodium because many are about underlying conditions that lead to hypernatremia. You certainly will see the word kidney mentioned a lot, in any case. And frankly it might do you some good to browse through the articles and understand that there are many underlying disorders that can lead to hypernatremia, and that one who is chronically ill might think twice, three times, four times, many times, about adding salt to their diet if they are not sure how perfectly their kidneys, liver and heart are functioning.
I see from a brief search that PMID: 18570837 is about severe hypernatremia from excess salt but the article is in Spanish. It references several earlier articles, you'll see at the side there, from 1990, 1992, and 2000 about salt poisoning.
I suspect you don't know the first thing about doing research, and I suspect you are seeing mucus in the toilet. Do you actually *know* what a bacterial biofilm is?
Maybe Keebler felt a responsibility to others, and the fact that she is not "moving on" instantly is because she cares about the naive or uninformed who might accidentally harm or poison themselves based on posts of those like you.
Sorry to be so blunt but really, its outrageous. Unless, of course, you are a troll, which is a possibility.
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I am starting the salt and vit c tomorrow. I will start at 1/4 teasp of each once a day. I took 1/4 teasp of each separately today.
Seeing a LLMD at the end of this month.
Thanks for the info.
Besides the new salt/vit c protocol, the only way out of this for me is to focus on what is good or right in my body.
For instance, my elbows frequently are feeling good. And when I feel all the other symptoms, I just focus on my elbows and am thankful that they are ok right now. This referral back to my elbows is constant. I believe that one day, the good feeling, no matter how small, will one day override the negative.
Blessings to all in this journey,
Christine
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DebAz
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posted
Ccb .. That is great.. i do a lot of positive visualiation myself I float on my pool.. and all the pain feels so much better.> I keep that in my mind and when I get out I keep that memory ongoing through the day and its amazing how our mind and body are connected and i think that we have to stay focused on health and the good things we feell YES> Great Let me know how you do on the salt and c .... Deb..
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DebAz
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Thanks everyone for all the information and knowledge. I read it all. Please can we just post things and keep it simple and not personal.?
This is not productive and creates a negative environment when we are all trying to heal.
I WANT To hear all the stories.. negative and positive.. and i want you to post all the sites and the information you find and then i can then read and use the information for myself.
But the way that people are presenting the information and calling people names is not healthy. .
This is supposed to be a place for helping each other by sharing information.
So put your stuff on the threads you want to share and then leave it at that.. Is that ok with everyone.
Please do not take things personally or keep fighting.
Simply state if you disagree with someone that you disagree and why.. Please.. I would very much appreciate it.
Always Deb. On a healing path. just like the rest of here. We should be working together.. Think about it..
Another try to make people think before writing certain things.
IN LOVE and in Peace. Lets all HUG one another.. And pray for our health and everyone elses. ... NO matter what the path is they choose...
glm1111
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posted
Well put Deb. Thankx for your wisdom and support.
Lets all move forward into healing.
Fancy:
I loved what your father the pharmacist said. Very wise and so obvious
Thankx,
Gael
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DebAz
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posted
Hello.. I am always reading and researching..
Here I found someone who has really done his research and has given warnings to the affect that there are different types of people and some protocols may not work for everyone based on who you are and your body..
oxygenbabe
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Yes, but Deb, you should know that he tried it for two years and he was the one who encouraged me strongly to try it and who believed it was working for him----in spite of the fact that at the same time he was applying for SSDI and would soon have to sell his house and move with his family to live with relatives, and in spite of the fact that he was basically housebound. Sometimes with CFIDS/lyme you have little ups and downs and in the ups you desperately want to believe you are getting well.
And he encouraged me and kept on it himself in spite of, as he finally admitted very reluctantly after a month of emails back and forth in which he just did NOT want to believe that salt could be so harmful---he admitted that at times his arrhythmias and heart pain had been so bad he asked his wife to just place her hand on his heart so he could get through the night because he was not sure he would make it, and at times his kidneys hurt as bad as a kidney stone and he'd be in bed, and at times he had foamy urine, he developed varicose veins, he had dry mouth, and he developed new wrist pain.
Yet he was almost half hypnotized, in my estimation, by LymeStrategies and their belief that this was a miracle cure and that side effects were a herx.
He finally saw the light of day, but unfortunately because he'd so mis-led himself and perhaps been so mis-led, he had encouraged me and without any real warnings. I still bear responsibility for trying it for four days and I did 10-12 grams because I wanted to clear up some sinus issues. When it started affecting my kidneys so badly and I was woozy and weak and had kidney aches I stopped. But I guess I had done some permanent damage that is with me to this day two years later. In addition for months I was extremely weak like someone had taken all the air out of me, *and*, I had incredible cravings those first few weeks for milk and avocados (potassium and calcium--which I'm sure my kidneys had leached out of wherever necessary to try and maintain blood osmolarity as best they could with the onslaught of sodium).
I'm not sure that the ascorbic acid adds to the kidney problem--its very acidic and sometimes I have wondered, as a nurse friend of mine in my building who is quite brilliant said simply, Whoever thought up that protocol was trying to kill people.
Kurt came to his senses but he had spent two years and a lot of $ (not working, borrowing against his home) hoping that salt/c was his answer and it was very hard for him to give up the cherished hope. And in fact, months later after he'd moved, I was stunned to get an email from him saying that he was back on a low dose of 2 grams a day and was having kidney pain but he believed the kidney pain was a virus. He had always started having kidney pain from salt/c at low doses. Here he was back on it--because it is well known in the CFIDS community that about 1 gram a day can help boost adrenal function esp. with those who have POTS, and in fact even James Wilson an adrenal expert mentions this. One gram is not for killing anything, though. So maybe Kurt was having that effect from a low dose. But at 2 grams he was having symptoms. And he was denying it to himself once again and saying he had a virus that was bothering his kidneys!!?? It is my belief that he was emotionally very attached to the idea of salt/c, and loathe to let it go, because he had nothing at the time to replace it with, and being sick with no hope is pretty unbearable. Even so, damaging your kidneys is a worse situation.
So Kurt was honorable enough to thoroughly research all the dangers with the protocol and post them because Marc would not. We gave him the names and emails of people who had suffered on it and practically begged Marc to put the risks into his ebook. Then people could make their own decision, but at least the risks would be stated. Don't drugs all state their side effects and risks? Normally they do. So Marc never did that. I don't know where he disappeared to as he's gone from the list.
Now I don't know, maybe the protocol has been well tolerated by some and they got better. If so I believe it is because it cleansed the digestive tract where they may have had anaerobes, dysbiosis, maybe some worms etc. That's it. And Ayurveda has a kind of salt cleanse like that, where you drink the salt in a gallon, entire gallon I believe, of water in the morning for a week or two.
The "science" suggesting it can shift your entire blood to more salty and penetrate all your tissues including the brain and cure all the tickborne diseases by essentially "soaking" you in salt is ludicrous. IE no science.
I'm glad you found his blog and posted it. I am all for alternatives as long as they don't harm. IMO if they are harmless but, say, the person believes in them therefore gets the powerful benefit of the placebo effect, then they are still effective. I think IRT is bunk but I think it may have helped people simply by the power of belief. If people want to spend their $ I have no beef as long as they aren't harmed. I am not so sure about rife, as I am not sure what it would do to normal cells, that is the problem. I do believe we COULD develop effective electromagnetic technology if we examined the exact frequency that killed a bug and gave targetted sessions. We are far from that. Doug did rife once every month or so if I recall. I'm not so sure about folks bombarding themselves with fields every day, especially based on anecdotal evidence etc. Even so it doesn't seem anybody has died from or been seriously harmed from rife. And things like Bionic 880 nobody has been hurt and it might even have a real effect, who knows.
My point being, the problem with salt/c is that people deem it almost a miracle cure, that they self-treat with no guidance from doctors, and that some people have been irreparably harmed, apparently one died, and others just had adverse effects, stopped it, and recovered. That needs to be clear to anybody who bothers to "try" it.
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i hear what you are saying. it might be worthwhile to purchase the ebook and read the Townsend Article. it really makes sense. i have a doctorate in biology and "osmotic shock" to kill variant organisms is a valid theory.
i know the salt c protocol scares some people but, for some people it has saved their life {muself included}. Let's just agreee that people get well different ways and leave it at that.
salt c has changed my life. i am sooo much better than i was this time last year. i herx and then feel a new area of improvement when it is over. unfortuntatly, i relapsed hard when i was on abx and decided abx wasn't the answer for me. i imagine for some people abx can take them all the way.
you need to do research, ask people that have gotten well how they did it.
i have talked to many people with chronic lyme and more often than not the ones that are well today have chosen alternative treatments, rife, salt c, whatever.
in my experience, abx often lead to a relapse. this is just my personal experience and i hope it is not your case. do i wish abx were the answer for me? yes. but after taking 3 different abx simultaneouly for 11 months and relapsing HARD after coming off...i had to find an altenative..and THANK GOD salt c entered my life.
i have made more progress on salt c then the entire time i was on abx. i have only been on salt c for a short 7 months. i will stick with this protocol for life and am so appreciative of marc and the folks at lymephotos.
anyhow, i wish everyone continued healing however you decide to do it.
sammy1
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glm1111
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks for Kurts website info Deb. On the right side of his site he talks about all of the benefits of salt/c.
I have read the pros and cons and both seem to have validity.
According to e-medicine, HYPERNATREMIA (elevated sodium levels in the blood)has some very good info as to the causes.
First::: dehydration from not drinking enough water.
Second:::Drugs, such as steroids, licorice and certain blood pressure lowering medications:::
Third is Certain endocrine disease such as diabetes(from frequent urination):::
Fourth::::hyperventilation.
They state in general hypernatremia can be caused by derangement of the thirst response, usually seen in the elderly and the very young due to excess water loss.
People that are salt sensitive who develope high blood pressure when they take in extra salt have kidneys that permit protein, called albumin to pass thru them.
There is new research indicating that high blood pressure is caused by inflammation. Infection can be the underlying cause.
I would think that people who have prexisting conditions and who are on certain medications would be wise enough to check with their doctors before starting any protocol.
Like Sammy,this protocol has saved my life .After 4yrs of oral antibiotics and 6 mos IV rocephin. I too kept relapsing.
Everyone should arm themselves, do the research and make their own informative decisions.
Gael
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DebAz
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posted
Well i am glad I posted that too. i think it was well written and describes the pros and cons and who might not do well and that there are some who don't > I appreciated his honesty and he wrote the article well.
And I agree that everyone will find a different path. My doctor admited that most all his patients relapse after abx treatment so eh considers and tell me that if I find the right dose or type that I might stay on it for most of my life..
He admits that they have not found one that will erradicate,. but he is working hard on that.
I am glad I have him.. But as well sometimes he is so into the research he does not like his patients to think outside the box too much because he likes to know how his treatments are affecting him for his research.
But here not there.. He has not told me not to do what I choose or think is best for me.
I am hoping this well be part of the puzzle for me and I hope I can say what Sammy and Gael are saying instead of the other stories. But time will tell.
As well I am not attached to some dream or hope for some miracle cure and take everything with caution and with my eyes wide open. If I have to stop. I will stop.. And move on to something else.
But a herx or intensity in symptoms will not scare me away.>And I know the difference. it looks as if some might not. I know the difference and have lots of herxing for years.
Well anyway. i will keep you up to date and either way this may help someone else decide when they go looking or enter this path.
Take care everyone And Thanks to all.
I hope that article brought us a bit closer together and that we all recognize there are risks and there are stories of people who really did not do well and feel this protocol harmed them and there are some that did well and .. the information given can not be black and white for everyone.
But this thread has proven to show many sides that will help educate and stimulate the thinking minds of all who end up reading it all...
GOD BLESS TO ALL> DEB
THANKS FOR all the inputs... and outputs.
So much appreciated. I can not imagine have learned near as much without ALL of you and that includes all that do not agree.
Brussels
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posted
Oxy, I didn't know the whole story, thanks for telling it.
Deb, no one is salt /C group does only salt/C, but salt/C is only one tiny part of what all of them take. That's what I saw while I was there.
Problems with babesia resistance is also there, people trying a whole bunch of products and herbs to 'help' salt/C work.
I know one nice lady who believed so much in salt/C for years and is still fighting babesia today. And of course, still fighting lyme, bartonella, etc. She still though feels it helps her.
Infection can cause high blood pressure, so does high salt consumption. In my case, after stopping salt/C, I never got high blood pressure back, even though I was still sick with lyme and dozens of infections and parasites after the next months and years I stopped salt/c.
So no, Gael, don't try to say salt is harmless to all. And that all who died of heart related diseases so far had hypertension just because of infection. Sorry, I'm not convinced.
What I don't appreciate in the salt/C 'fanatism' is that in ALL protocols, people talk about the inconvenients or problems that may arise for each individual case.
The only ones who seem to see no problem AT ALL are the salt/C 'fanatics' (and the Marshall people, it seems).
Another thing they still don't seem to admit is that what they call herx could be salt poisoning symptoms (kidney pain, for example).
My critics are not to salt, nor salt/C, but to fanaticism.
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DebAz
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Thats a good point and I agree we should not put all our eggs in one basic or "believe" in on thing so much we do not see the full picture.. I surely agree there.
Hey from what you wrote you had in parenthesis (Marshall Protocol People)>> Did you mean that they are fanatics with Salt too or that they are fanatics within themselves.
I have read about that protocol and because it contradicts some of my doctors therapies or views I have not taken much from it at all.
Anyway.. Thanks for taking time to add to the thread and well I hope you see Gael and Sammy are not trying to be those Fantics you are talking about. I do not see them that way.
But at times it is hard for people to put up there view when the back and forth stuff becomes something that looks as if it is defending or answering back and forth.. Then the read of the thread can be misunderstood by some..
Thats how I feel. and again so glad we have everyone here.
God Bless
PS Good point on the herx thing and you do have to know the difference. It is very important..
glm1111
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posted
Brussels,
I NEVER said salt was harmless to all. I NEVER said all people who have heart attacks have an infection.
I also talked about people that are salt sensitive and some of the causes of hypernatremia.
Please don't twist the information around to suit yourself.
Why are you on this thread trying to cause discord? Everyone on here can read and make intelligent decisions on their own.
Why don't you focus on the modalities that are helping you heal and move on. I think everyone would appreciate that.
Peace & Light,
Gael
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DebAz
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posted
Hello everyone
I wanted to post some of the other things on the same site as the other blog.. If you look to the right of the blog there are about 7 more very interesting and informative articles ... some from those who are on the protocol.... some comparing the many protocols that call for salt and c.. and some other scientific ones that help tell you why this works.
Here is that last one. its is something you have to read... all
I really found this interesting and.. my insomnia has been so bad.
I will say on Friday I actually found myself sleepy and I was laughing and thinking to myself I can not remember the last time my eyes started closing and I felt "sleepy" like i wanted to seelp.
That is after 5 days or so on the salt.. Maybe related??
Brussels
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There is new research indicating that high blood pressure is caused by inflammation. Infection can be the underlying cause.
Who wrote that then, Gael?
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Brussels
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Insomnia can be caused by HBP.
In anyways, no matter what causes it, insomnia means less energy to fight infections. All lyme doctors know a patient can only heal if s/he sleeps well.
I'm not going to write here anymore, not to disturb the thread then. I'm not that type of person.
I just have problems with blind fanaticism. Any type of.
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oxygenbabe
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Selma, what you contributed was very valuable. Gale is suggesting that you should *not* contribute and she is wrong. People cannot make "intelligent" decisions without all the information. I completely agree with you, there are two groups in which the "cure" is put forth as a panacea and oddly enough they both affect the kidneys badly (Marshall Protocol and salt/c) but for different reasons. (Benicar in the case of MP). In any case, in both protocols no matter what the symptom it is called a herx (or "immunopathology" to sound even more impressive in MP).
Nobody can make informed decisions without all the information.
That's what happened to me. Kurt did not tell me a word about his bad side effects, not at all, until I had bad side effects and pestered him about it by email. And finally he began to admit all his side effects and finally he realized they were not herxes etc.
It is very important to include risks, cautions and side effects/negative/harmful experiences with a protocol that is outside standard of care medicine. Usually when folks do that, those who are for the protocol or feeling helped by the protocol, attack the others, call them negative, tell them to stop posting etc.
I don't see what's wrong with posting all experiences.
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DebAz
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I got to be honest here and am confused as to how some have presented themselves.. Since i have started this post it feels as if those who disagree or feel that people who try this protocol are making a huge mistake and should listen to them .... are the people who I feel present their side in a way that presents openings for ongoing "arguing" instead of contructive dialoge and presentations of pros and cons and documentation and historys and personal experiences etc. I think that for some reason there is a real passion in a negative way to those who continue to enter or try a protocol when someone has not done well or strongly advocates against it.
I appreciate both sides so much.. But i do not appreciate always how it has been presented..
I have seen how Gael has been put into positions of having to defend herself and even being demeaning to her...
Its not cool at all or nice..
We should show respect no matter what we write or say and be mature enough to just say we disagree..
I would not ask or want anyone to go away.. But could you keep presenting material without it becoming personal.
I keep repeating myself here. and I will not probably do it again. It just seems that there has to always be some sort of dig thrown in against someone directly... Its not nesessary.. and it can build if everyone just does not stop together.
Lets all agree to wanting to put forth all information.. and for the good of everyone.. And respect eachother for all the time and work it takes to share and present and we all know this will help anyone how is making protocol decisions.
I wish this thread was here even a month ago. It would have saved me a lo of time and reasearch and emails etc.
Even my journey.. no matter howlong it lasts or how it turns out I hope will help others too..
lets all work together..
Think about it.. we all want the same thing.
The choices people make are not what should determine how they are treated hear.
I think we all agree that any one thing done in excess or any one person who wants to choose one thing as the do all end all and is trying to convince others that they have the miracle cure and that energy trys tosway them to stop their open minds and to stop trying other things.. Is not good.
We all agree much more than we have any overlap of disagreement...
I am not sure what protocols some of the people here who do not agree or have had good results with this protocol are on.
I actually would love to hear what is working for you and what your taking ...
Would you please share that with us.. It could help us learn a contrast as to if this did not work and had bad affects..
What is working and helping you???
Let us know Ok??
THANKS for listening
LOVE and Peace to all!! Health and Happiness... too
Smile.. and lets all relax and enjoy one another. Life is too short people.. Life for people like us even feels shorter.
I try to see people so differently since being sick
Everyone has something to offer one another.. EVERYONE>
oxygenbabe
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posted
If you're asking Selma/Brussels she has many posts on here about her entire journey and what helps her.
Me too, but a quick overview: 1) I have a home hyperbaric oxygen chamber 2) I get weekly Meyer's cocktail pushes and IV glutathione. I get them in sterile water (because of salt intolerance since salt/c) 3) I get IVIG in small doses every 2-3 weeks (used to be every week before salt/c disaster) 4) I take echinacea purpurea root and cranberry capsules from Eclectic Institute daily.I take one capsule of VSL#3 daily. I take comitras and Immunity from Atrium-Biotech now owned by Douglas Labs. They are frozen peptides. 5) I was experimenting with transfer factor for strep and e. coli and in some ways felt much better but my bladder began to burn as a result so I stopped and am trying to figure out what to do about that 6) I have taken some homeopathic remedies and am going to create my own home medicine cabinet of remedies. That's a long story.
I got a bobber made for me (biotensor in fancy lingo) and if anybody is interested in having one made for them, PM me and I'll give you the email addy of the fellow who made it. I love the bobber and it was cheaper than the others people are purchasing.
I should add that I can't just take platitudes and homilies like "smile and relax" and "let's all get well now" type stuff when I see people posting about a protocol that has harmed a significant # of people. I have to get that information out to people, and then they can make an informed decision. I would rather hurt a few people's feelings (for mysterious reasons, people get very upset if the protocol that they believe is helping them, is in any way suggested to be less than perfect) and see someone save their kidneys or heart. I think I am correct in that view.
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DebAz
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Thanks for the information about your protocol.. Its interesting things and combinations...
How do you feel it has been working and what is working best of your list??
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oxygenbabe
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Well I would be bedridden on disability or dead without it. I slowly added in each thing and was improving until salt/c which caused me long lasting problems and at least six months of severe weakness and long lasting multiple chemical sensitivities.
Each thing I do helps. Each has good scientific reasoning behind it except homepathy I suppose.
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posted
One persons meade is another's poison; where there have been people who have responded poorly to salt/c, or to MP, or any of the many protocols shared on this site, there have also been success stories.
I imagine whatever protocol that is implemented will help if it replaces some vital nutrient that is missing or enhances some component of normal function, and it will do harm if it causes the buildup of something that is not too low to begin with, or interupts some normal function.
The only way to know is to try, the problem is that an untoward reaction may be classified as a herx when it is a sign that the protocol is wrong for someone, and they will continue with the plan until they have passed a point of no return.
Caveat Emptor.
Posts: 442 | From Biddeford, ME | Registered: Nov 2007
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sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
I think moderation is a good idea.
It's good to switch treatments just as a general rule with Lyme. The bacteria changes forms. You can build up a resistance & the bacteria can go into cyst or L or other forms but it may not mean you are free of Bb.
Some people have been having success with MMS (Miracle Mineral Supplement). Some people may want to look into that as an alternate to the salt/C protocol...?
Just a suggestion - I haven't tried either protocol.
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Doc Luddite, you generalize too much. Take IV bismacine, it killed someone. Would we say "The only way to know is to try"? It also cured someone I know.
So. Some protocols are much riskier than others.
It is well known and there is abundant scientific information and data that a high salt diet is definitively linked to higher mortality and morbidity from cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure etc.
It is well known that the SAD has too much salt added into various foods commonly eaten.
These people may be adding in another 15-20 grams of salt daily along with their SAD. For years at a time. This seems generally risky except in a minority of cases. In addition, as Brussels/Selma pointed out, most of them are on lots of other stuff as well so it's quite hard to even tell what is helping them or hurting them.
Caveat emptor about protocols which are so far from standard of care, and in which people have gotten very very ill. Mostly in the lyme world those are salt/c and Marshall Protocol. Under the care of a doctor, which MP must be, maybe the MP is worth trying for some folks as long as they understand the possible negatives, as some folks have improved greatly on MP. But a lot of folks didn't and others got horribly ill and almost went into kidney failure.
Same with salt/c--we hear reports that one person may have died from it, and I posted many severe reactions people had.
This is one protocol that deserves a lot of warnings and cautions, especially since almost no doctor would or should approve it.
And also the amount people take is so staggeringly variable who even knows what it means. One is taking 1 gram a day, another 20. Its completely confusing.
So I don't think it's as simple as what's harmful to one may help another. Within that statement is a bellcurve of realities.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
Hi Oxygen.. I would like to see the reports and data on the Salt you have that proves the dangers...
Besides the ones that are about mothers forcing kids to take salt down and with intent to kill or harm.....
I would like to read about this proof of dangers and how much salt it took to make that harm happen...
Could you please forward that to me or post them here.>
THANKS
To help you on the confusion.. People work up to the dosage recommended which is determined by weight but for the average person is a max of about 18 grams.
So many start at less than a gram and slowly increase as tolerated to the dose that either works for them or until they get to the max recommended.
Hope that helps you understand why people post different amounts.
For me there seems to be a lot of personal comments about what the harm can be or people who did not tolerate it do post what it did to them and I can understand it did not work for those who are salt sensitive or have issues with processing or having the salt in their bodies..
But that is not all people who have those sorts of bodies...
And Just like it was said above everyone is different and different things work for different people.
WHen I have found any data saying one thing about how salt can be harmful or a precaution is there.. I take that as a warning but not a For sure thing.. Just like the protocols your on.
And then I watch for them.
BUt I have not found solid evidence that is not refuted or given some other explanation or even shown to be not true in another type of study .... that shows me..
A = B.
Such as .. if you consume more than ___ G of salt a day it will result in kidney failure within ____ time frame..
There has to be something solid to back up what your saying.. And if there is I will surely listen.
posted
It's hard to know which treatment will be beneficial --- even with antibiotics taken under a doctor's care people have lost their gallbladders & had permanent tendon damage etc. and there are message boards on these subjects warning people not to take these antibiotics.
However, many people have also had good results with these antibiotics so these ones say try it, it worked for me.
The problem to me seems to be how do you know if a protocol is safe for a particular individual. So far the only thing I've seen that may give you an inkling is to learn muscle testing or go to someone who is proficient in it.
It may not be completely accurate but at least it will give you some idea if you can tolerate what you want to take. Otherwise it's just a shot in the dark.
JMHO
Posts: 590 | From Canada | Registered: Oct 2007
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
But I mean evidence.
Not that Joe had kidney failure after this protocol.
That would give me something to think about and I have heard negative reactions and positive ones and I can and do hear both sides.
But as well.. there are people who react to certain things differently as a variable.
SO if there are studies though that show or state something solid.. Such as
Example. 90 out of 100 people had kidney damage after taking the salt c protocol when using the range of 10 - 20 G per day. And 50 percent of those who were taking 1 - 10 G per day.
Or just a study of how many had kidney damage after taking a certain amount of salt into their systems.
I am looking for data to back up your claims of the huge dangers you keep saying.
As I said I can and have researched even some of your protocol items and some have some precautions and side affects I would watch out for it I started to take.. And I might consider a couple of the ones your taking.. Maybe..
And that is what I do. I read up and then educate and choose or not choose and then use the information to help ensure I am looking for the right side affects that might point to me saying I am either taking too much or it is interacting or causing problems that I need to pay attention to.
I may have to stop the item I am taking if it becomes an issue for me that makes me have additional issues to be concerned with and of course report this to my doctor.
Thats just how i think we have to approach things and we can not avoid things totally on just what others are sayng unless we feel it is enough of the population to make us choose the option of saying. na.. sounds too risky
ITs our choice.. Just like many may not choose all of what your doing or taking or what others are doing or taking.
I appreciate you feel passionate that this protocol is a danger since you had bad things happen to you.
I have heard bad things have happened to the people on the Marshall PRotocol too yet many people do it and have great success.
So the person or people who did not have success or even had problems. Should not expect to do more than alert others of their own experience and then after that.. It is up to the person...what they do.
This thread seems to feel as if the tone is .. If we do not listen to those who have had bad experiences on this protocol then we are not intelligent people and as well we are asking for ourselves to be hurt .
And the feeling that.. Your right and the rest of us are wrong and we will pay in the end if we Just would listen to you.. You would be happy.
I mean I have heard all your stories and others negative reactions and stories too.
I still choose to try this therapy at my own pace and in my way and taking some of the informaton and apply it to my personal past experiences. what I know about my body.. etc..
Thats my right and i do not feel like energy taken to defend or to feel as if I and others are being put down for our choices.
If you have more information and or new information that is helpful that is great.
If it changes someones mind.. It might.. If not.> It wont.. That is up to the person.
Keep posting the information. But not be upset at those who do not respond how you would like or think they should.
AN EXAMPLE OF VARIOUS OPINIONS>> EVEN ON A MAINSTREAM THERAPY >>
Some people will do chemo and some will not. Some think it is poison and the thing that kills them before the cancer and some swear by it and say it is what saved their lives.
My Mother refused it and it has seemingly been the right thing to do.. Her friend did not refuse it and she died within the week of starting it and the chemo completely changed her body and her ability to live right before my mothers eyes.
She witnessed it.. And it was told to her even by the doctors that she did not handle the chemo well and it was that chemo that knocked her down and she ultimately died from. But that patient choose that therapy hoping it would cure them and they did not want to risk the cancer spreading more or faster and it was a personal choice.
Ok.> I am tired of this now..
I am going to go drink my Salt C Now.... It feels good so far overall and if it helps me.. Be happy for me.
If it feels like it is hurting me .. and I know what to look out for.. I will get the help I need and stop the therapy and figure out what choice I need to make next.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
Deb, sorry but I'm way too busy to do the simple research you could do about high salt diets 9over 2300 milligrams a day) associated very strongly with high blood pressure and cardiovascular disease. Do a google search.
As to the specifics I told you which groups to join and gave you the names of the people so join those groups, search for their names, or the topic salt/c and email those people. Please do the additional research yourself, IF YOU WANT TO.
I'm not confused by people taking different amounts, I'm saying you have no idea what the protocol is if the amount varies twenty fold and if everybody is on multiple stuff. You apparently are pulsing antibiotics and antimalarials. Who knows what is helping you.
The one thing James Wilson ND has shown is that a small amount of daily salt can help adrenals. He is very reputable as a source. Go look at his work.
Okay done with this issue for now.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
Even in Hyperbaric Oxygen Therapy
There is concern for Oxygen Toxicity and other Potential Complications
But.. I am sure it depends on how you do the therapy and if you take into consideration those items.
Just like any other therapy Including this one and many and probably near all others.
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
OxygenBabe..
I do know what is working for me and what is not.
I have been careful to add one new thing at a time after periods of time and...
Well I could say the same thing to you but I do not because I know how it goes and we all know our own bodies best
And .. well.. I have read the sites and I have read what you posted and I have googled like crazy.
I do not see the evidence you suggest.
ANd since you can not present it I tend to not believe it until I see it. And the ones that are posted are some other sort of thing going on that someone is trying to relate to salt consumption an its safety.
Like I said. i have not seen solid evidence yet that scares me to the point that you describe.
If you already have that proof then you do not have to research it and you should be able to point me there..
But well. its what I thought.
And this is really getting ridiculous.
We got your point. And we are capable adults of making choices and if there is some risk.. it is up to us to choose to take it or not.
I have no idea why you have to keep repeating the same thing. We all ready read it and now over and over.
Now what?? What would you like us to do?? This seems like it is about doing something that makes you feel satisfied.
This seems personal to you and if people do not take your warnings and stop or never start this protocol.. it seems to be personal...
And that in itself makes me take it personal because it is only up to me if I try something or not.
We could overdose on our water too and yet we are not here all talking about it and arguing over how much water you better drink.
This is really getting stupid.. This is nothing like what I enjoy. and now after much patience I am feeling as if I am lowering my level.
I will not respond to the same old stuff..
I took all the info from you and all others and all I could find to read and site and more... and I choose to give this a try.
Others many have read all this and choose not to.
So the thread is has presented the sides.
But just as much as you say how others get so upset about things when you say they may not work.. Take a look backwards because it seems as if your fueling the fire of being defensive and upset when others say it works or they are trying it ...
that is not helping anyone.
your claims of others doing exactly what your doing is not right and I think your not seeing this thread clearly.
You really have been the only one to go in the direction you claim others are..
Maybe now I have some.. and again I have lowered myself but..
Not anymore..
maybe being on that level you will hear more of what I have been saying all along..
The personal aspect of the thread really is not productive for anyone.. and I personally do not appreciate it.
Only you can stop it..
Try to stop posting for a week.. and take a look at the thread. You will see it going away.. from this angle..
I have told you how many times I appreciate your responses and your contributions etc..
But as well how the other side is not helping. And even when I say .. be well and lets work together That is enough for you to put down as well.
posted
Hey ALl > >Here is another thread someone told me about that you might learn from as people are either talking about this protocol or trying it or have been on it .. or on it and off it or whatever.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
It's not personal. You made posts with silly angry faces as a response to my post last night. I told the absolute truth in that post--that without my protocols I'd be bedridden or dead, and that they all helped, and that honestly salt/c was the only one that harmed me and I'm still suffering the consequences two years later. You don't want the truth?
I also posted that all my protocols have some scientific/reasonable basis (for instance, go on pubmed and you'll find out that both lyme and babesia oxidize glutathione, so supplementing with glutathione as I do makes sense etc) except perhaps homeopathy and I am engaging in that but that's a long story as I said.
I don't mind if you do the protocol. You say you are under the care of two LLMD's so hopefully you have informed both of them you are doing the protocol and they are monitoring your kidney and cardiac function. RIGHT???
I can't help you if you can't go on those sites to email those people directly. I posted their monikers or names. You found Kurt's site. I've given you a lot of information.
Please don't ask me about my protocols and then ask me not to tell you the truth.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
I did not say I thought you were lying
Your reading into things.
I said I did not believe yet based on my readings that Salt C is the danger you keep typing about..
I keep trying to tell you it is positive to give information.
Its not positive to write the personal attacks or critisism or assumptions or insinuations etc towards others.
Thats what I said..
That is completely separate from what you posted about protocols or information.. I just have to keep sifting through one to get the other..
glm1111
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 16556
posted
Oxygenbabe
Just wondering if any of your protocols are treating your OCD...as you know it stands for OBSSESIVE COMPULSIVE DISORDER. I am not being sarcastic either.
It is not the fact that you have told us that you think the salt/c has damaged your kidneys, but honestly you keep repeating it OVER and OVER and OVER again.
That is definitely a symptom of OCD. Deb has posted all the pros and cons of salt/c. I posted some info on it as well.
OCD is very indicative of severe neurolyme and calling me names is indicative of Lyme rage.
I hope you find a protocol that can help you with that. I find Deb to be one of the most patient,kind, compassionate persons I know.
So, for her buttons to be pushed like that, there has to be a very good reason, believe me.
Gael
-------------------- PARASITES/WORMS ARE NOW RECOGNIZED AS THE NUMBER 1 CO-INFECTION IN LYME DISEASE BY ILADS* Posts: 6418 | From philadelphia pa | Registered: Jul 2008
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oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
I take the sugar and vitamin Z protocol for my OCD. It really helps relax me so that I am ZZZZ (sleepy). It's in an alternate reality. Meet you there sometime? Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
And again.. I have not found basis during my research where you have pointed me to.. or my own hours of research that backs up the danger in the way you present it in relation to the protocol. You can not use just salt
reports that one person may have died from it
since almost no doctor would or should approve it.
It is well known and there is abundant scientific information and data that a high salt diet is definitively linked to higher mortality and morbidity from cardiovascular disease, high blood pressure etc.
As well the sorts of comments like
I suspect you don't know the first thing about doing research
its outrageous. Unless, of course, you are a troll, which is a possibility
It seems as if you deleted yourself from the beginning pages of the thread for some reason or someone else deleted it. Who knows.
But.. in essence you are giving others the impression that most people are harmed or are putting their lives in danger by doing this protocol.
Lets be real.. From the research and amount of people I see on here either on or doing the protocol compared to those who I have read about or talked to or was referred to is like 10:1 ratio
That is 90 percent as been positive and 10 percent negative.
That is by using case numbers. And a proportion based on my research which I have spent so far about 60 hours on this research in all the areas I can find and you and others have pointed me in.
I am sorry for those who did not do well ... THis is ironic... and I do not believe this.. But I will use your statement. People are on so many things that maybe the 10 percent had bad reactions to something else. I do not agree with that and I think that most all people are educated enough to for the most part isolate treatments and protocols. And if not they know how to eliminate or such to figure it out. Of course there is not perfect or 100 percent way to know for sure.. Even the doctors use educated guesses or process of eliminaton techniques and or just talking to the patient.
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
The salt therapy was found to have beneficial effects in the treatment of:
Asthma and Chronic Bronchitis
COPD (Chronic Obstructive Pulmonary Disease)
Allergic Rhinopathy or Hay Fever
Cystic Fibrosis
Sinusitis
Ear Infections
Smoking Cough
Various acute or chronic respiratory disease
Reduce snoring and activates better sleep by clearing the airway passages in oropharyngeal region
Increased resistance to Cold & Flu by opening and clearing the nasal airway and improving the drainage of the sinuses
Humidifies the bronchial secretions reducing broncho-spasm and facilitating elimination of the smoke residual tar, phlegm expel and other allergens
Improves the quality of the indoor air by eliminating the dust, cigarette smoke, bad odours, mould and mites, having bactericide reduction properties.
The salt therapy is a natural method of therapy and does not involve any risk and is finally adapted to the living space. However, this is not a substitute for medical treatment and should only be used as an adjuvant helping to improve the quality of patients life, reducing the antibiotics and corticoids or steroids intake, reducing the rate of annual hospitalizations and decrease the frequency of respiratory diseases attacks. For more information, clinical studies and testimonials you can visit the web site.
NB: The author grants reprint permission to opt-in publications and websites so long as the copyright and by-line are included intact and the article is not used in spam.
Educated and motivated person, having a multicultural background with extensive knowledge about European health products and practices.
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
Dr. Mercola
quote: Vitamins C and E are antioxidants, compounds that neutralize cell-damaging free radicals. Recent studies have shown that antioxidants may help to reduce high blood pressure (hypertension), possibly by protecting the body's supply of nitric oxide, a molecule that relaxes blood vessels.
posted
B]Take the Latest Low Sodium Advice With a Grain of Salt[/B] By Paul J. Rosch, M.D.
quote:The "diet dictocrats" are at it again. The latest NHLBI (National Heart Lung and Blood Institute) warning is that Americans are eating too much salt and are therefore at increased risk for hypertension, stroke and heart attacks. Others claim that excess sodium is a poison that can also cause cancer and osteoporosis. NHLBI recommends that not only high blood pressure patients but all Americans should sharply reduce their sodium intake, regardless of age, gender or race.
This is another example of the same, stupid "one size fits all" cookie cutter approach of treating population statistics and laboratory measurements rather than people.
oxygenbabe
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 5831
posted
You say: "But.. in essence you are giving others the impression that most people are harmed or are putting their lives in danger by doing this protocol."
I intended not to give that impression, but to make it clear that that is indeed the case. Absolutely. For those who don't have serious side effects like hypertension, ankle edema, kidney and cardiac damage, there is still the stress of insanely high doses of salt daily.
Some people report improving so much (such as Gale). There is always a quality of life choice to be made if your life is absolutely unbearable and nothing else is happening. But then you make an informed choice.
I don't know what more you need. Do you require me to actually email each person and get their statements for you? If you want, I'll do so.
This is what happened with a few MP adherents on ImmuneSupport. One came on essentially saying it was a miracle cure. When some "naysayers" as they were dubbed by this person, came on to tell of serious side effects, she decided to delete the whole thread because "I can't babysit you people."
Then I started a thread to repost some of the negative effects. She and a few other MP adherents (who I guess *were* doing well and more power to them, I said that, but the risks of that protocol are also serious and sometimes very severe, and must be stated), came onto my thread once again promoting the miracle cure. One of the fellows, Roy, took a similar approach as Gale just did, diagnosing me with severe neurolyme. That is an amusing approach--try to suggest that the poster is invalid because they have severe neurolyme. If only we could all diagnose so easily by internet...
Well then a few new people came on who'd had disastrous effects, absolutely disastrous, from the MP. One had become completely bedridden and was in a terrible state and had to be taken care of by others. The posts were so clear, so detailed, and so horrible to read, that the MP adherents just melted away. None of them apologized or posted showing sympathy for the others' experiences or said that although it had worked so well for them they would consider this new information when suggesting the protocol in the future. They simply disappeared.
So it seems that no matter how much I post, the few who don't want to hear it are going to negate it. When I get the time, as I am on some deadlines, I will get you extremely detailed information. I may still have some of it in older email files.
Posts: 2276 | From united states | Registered: Jun 2004
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seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
OxygenBabe,
I can't comment one way or the other about the protocol as I have no experience with it. I did want to say it's obvious you don't have 'severe neuro Lyme' based on the your writing, thought process, and ability to construct replies. C'mom everyone. Let's not get too far fetched.
As said many times, if someone wants to do a treatment, it's always up to them to research like crazy, consider side effects/risks, and make a cost/benefit decision. THis applies whether it's Salt/C, JamesCase20's ideas, etc. You are responsible for YOU when you treat. Even those who take Abx suggested by the great Dr. J, Dr. B, etc. make that moral decision.
Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
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DebAz
Unregistered
posted
A Pillar of Salt Jon Barron
quote: A couple of issues ago, I made a passing comment about the AMA's recent public statement concerning salt, questioning both the validity of their pronouncement and their qualifications to make such a statement in the first place. What a furor it created!
Since then, I have been interviewed by several newspapers, magazines, and appeared on radio talk shows -- all to talk about salt. Who knew it was such a big deal? But since it is, it seems worthwhile to revisit the subject again in more detail.
The primary issue that got lost by the AMA is that not all sources of sodium and salt are the same. As far as the body is concerned, there is no connection between the chemically-cleansed sodium chloride table salt you buy in the supermarket (which is also added to virtually every processed food you buy) and the mineral rich organic unrefined sea salt available in health food stores. One can kill you; the other heals you. In fact, it's essential for life.
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