Just thought I'd let you know that I also decided to try the Progurt as I've just ran out of my regular probiotics.
I spoke to the guy at Progurt and he said I could just try the sachets in water first of all without fermenting it as Im a bit concerned that I might react to the Progurt as I'm dairy sensitive ... Ive had gut problems for yrs and cant even tolerate kefir with goats or cows milk so I hope I can tolerate the Progurt..heres hoping! Anyway he reckons just taking the sachets first might help to prepare my gut for the full onslaught of the Progurt :-)
We'll see anyway & I'll keep you all posted on how I get on with it.
Hope everyone is doing well.
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
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SForsgren
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It doesn't work as well in water. Most people here that have tried it had some dairy issues and it doesn't seem to be too problematic.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
You may be better off trying to use coconut milk or hemp milk to ferment if you're truly averse to the milk. One of my family members is using hemp milk, and so is my doctor.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Thnx Scott & Joey! I think he was just suggesting that I try the sachets first of all just to prepare my gut then move on to making the liquid with cows milk when I order the next batch. It would be great if the dairy version does suit me, otherwise hemp or coconut milk might be good alternatives!
Joey are your doctor and family member getting benefits from using the Progurt with hemp milk?
Cheers
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
The progurt owner told me there isn't enough fat to set, and I've read in other sites it generally doesn't set. Among the nut, grain-based milks, hemp has the most fat. Although sometimes the hemp doesn't set either!!! No sure why the inconsistency.. either the milk or the incubator haha, not many suspects
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Got it. Makes sense. I just wish there wasn't so many darn additives in hemp milk. I know that in the case of the hemp milk that my local health food store sells, all of the additives are "natural". Natural or not though, it's just more to react to. Being a "universal reactor", I can't seem to figure out how I'd consume the progurt without causing more harm than good!
I WILL figure it out though because there is no doubt in my mind that the product itself would help me and my ever-so-dysfunctional gut.
Posts: 710 | From West Coast | Registered: May 2008
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My fam isn't using this one because the Living Harvest one sets better, but from what I hear, as long as it sours, fermentation has occurred.
There is nothing in the Manitoba hemp besides organic hemp, sea salt, water, and xanthan gum
Also, despite what Living Harvest label says, their hemp is also organic. It's just that they add synthetic vitamins to their milk.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Thanks Joey, thats good to know the hemp Progurt is helping someone in your family!
Cheers :-)
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
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Truthfinder
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posted
This is exciting.
Good luck, Shimmy.
Robin, what's SCD? (I've just about maxed out my lifetime acronym threshold.)
Zombie, are you still having daily results (or nearly so)?
I still have trouble understanding how little digestive bugs can normalize muscular rhythms in the gut..... this just amazes me.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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SForsgren
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SCD = Specific Carboyhdrate Diet
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Here is a brief synopsis of what the SCDiet entails:
"Some general guidelines are, no grains (i.e. rice, wheat, corn, oats, etc.), no processed foods, no starchy vegetables (i.e. potatoes, yams, etc.), no canned vegetables of any kind, no flour, no sugar, no sweeteners other than honey and saccharin, and no milk products except for homemade yogurt fermented for 24 hours, prepared according to the instructions in the book."
posted
Ok so I may just have suffered the brain fart of the Progurt era. Because of yeast, I opted to go with unsweetened hemp milk for family member, and in an earlier post I said it's never fully set. My doc reminded me today that whole milk has 12g of sugar!!! The probiotics feed on sugar during glycolysis and it should convert to lactic acid.
For those of you that plan on using hemp milk or other nut-based milk, high fat content may not be enough. The Manitoba aka Hemp Bliss original has 7g of fat and 6g of sugar per serving. The vanilla has the same fat but 13g of sugar, rivaling whole milk. That seems to be the best match. I will experiment with the sweetened hemp and see if it sets better tonight.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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Truthfinder
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Ah, yes - Specific Carbo. Diet - thanks Scott and Zombie for info on that. (Great news, Zombie.)
Speaking of lactic acid........ if anyone was following James Case and his last `discovery' before he left the board, some of the hints he gave suggested lactic acid might be the mystery Bb `killer' he discovered. Just one of the hints he gave out before he left was to `eat a lot of yogurt'.
Also, in my Lyme notes, I found this:
``Borrelia-b: Glucose provides its major energy source and lactic acid is the predominant metabolic end product.'' ( From Franz V's ``Monera'' book)
Does anyone know if this is correct? (It's impossible to try to Google this and come up with anything to verify it.)
Back in my days researching Fibromyalgia, it seems like the presence of lactic acid in muscles was thought to be the cause of chronic pain for many Fibro patients.....
I'm just sort of thinking out loud here, wondering what role lactic acid may have in this whole Lyme process.....
For instance, is it possible that the reason Lyme (and Fibro) tends to attack one area of the body, then move to another area is that it cannot thrive in a certain concentration of it's own `excreta', i.e. lactic acid? (Sorry, this probably isn't the right thread in which to speculate, but I suspect that there's some connection here.)
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Brussels
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About Latic Acid and Sanum. The only thing I use to regulate pH is Sanuvis, a mix of Latic acid potencies. It can be rubbed or ingested.
-- There's a good article about functions of acid latic in the body. The summary is below:
On the basis of the above symptoms, SANUVIS 2X is an ideal remedy for the regulation of disordered metabolic processes resulting from stress, dietary errors, imbalance in the acid-alkaline economy and lack of movement, and for the activation of cell respiration.
It is certainly involved in energy of the cells together with the citric acid cycle.
an interesting part of the article says that: In a hyperacidic body the tissue is acid because of accumulation of acids and metabolic waste, whilst the pH value of the blood becomes more strongly alkaline.
Another interesting part:
A prescription of dextro rotatory lactic acid is indispensable, since this activates cell respiration, favourably influences the acid-alkaline balance, stimulates the activity of the organs responsible for detoxification and that of the adrenals, and strengthens the immune system by giving improved support to the functions of fermentation.
In years of experiments both Dr. Dr. Seeger and Dr. Reckeweg found that good therapeutic results are only obtainable when pure attenuations of dextro rotatory lactic acid are prescribed.
Posts: 6200 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Also speaking of lactic acid.. I am still curious as to what about the weston price diet that has seemingly put Dr. Ron Schmid into remission or control or whatever of his lyme. From what I understand, he eats a lot of fermented vegetables, raw milk, close to raw meats.. yes.. and I think other ferments. Isnt that a lactic acid heavy diet or do I have that wrong?
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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lymeparfait
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posted
Very Interesting about the lactic acid. I've always wondered if there was a connection with keeping lyme at bay.
My daughter (who has lyme and co.) has very high lactic acid build up due to her intense competitive swim practices. The coach tests the team regularly by taking blood pricks from their ear lobes during the work outs and measuring it for lactic acid build up. A MD comes to help him and they chart it on the computer during a two hour swim workout of varying intensities.
Hers is always very high very quickly, compared to the other swimmers. And it takes her longer in warm downs to release it, if she even does. It is interesting to see the difference in her graphs and the other swimmers. Her chart is a line that moves very high on a steep grade and stays high, where the others gradually show an incline and then a gradual decline. She cannot do the distance sets that the other swimmers can do, usually to lactic acid build up in her arms. She says they feel like lead.
The LLMD believes she is doing better physically than average with her symptoms because of the swimming. Even though she wonders how in the world she can exercise at that level of activity, knowing how sick she is. When she stops practicing for a while, she gets very sick. So she keeps it up!
I would love to know if there is a connection.
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posted
How are you all judging when to start backing down the amount you consume?
How are you determining at what amount to start?
Does the Progurt company come up with an plan with you?
Thanks..
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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Truthfinder
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Selma, that article has amazing information! This may answer SO many questions, about how `lactic acid' seems to be both harmful and wonderful..... You may have provided the `missing link' here to the Progurt benefits!
I had no idea there were 2 types of lactic acid.... and as your quote pointed out, the dextro rotatory lactic acid (the L(+) form) could be a huge factor in detoxification, immune function, pH balance, cell respiration and oxygenation ......so many things we face with chronic illness.
I find this in my Repertories as `Sarcolactic Acid'. The remedy has been around forever! I'll have to read up on it.
Other quotes from the article:
quote:......L-lactic acid... and D-lactic acid.... This structural difference within the same summative formula results in their ability to rotate polarized light in different directions. [biophotons anyone?]
We therefore distinguish between dextro rotatory L(+)- and laevo rotatory (D-)-lactic acid, and their lactates.
....Laevo rotatory lactic acid [D- type], on the other hand, causes substantial damage to normal metabolism. It can result in intoxication, with neurological symptoms, dulling of consciousness and behavioural disturbances. This is also the reason why baby foods should never contain either D(-)-lactic acid or any racemate [combination of both lactic acids].
For a long time it was thought that aching muscles were the result of an accumulation of lactate. Today the cause is known to be minutely damaged and torn fibres.
Then is says:
quote:In products which are naturally fermented by lactic acid (milk, sauerkraut, beans, cucumbers) both forms of lactic acid occur as a mixture, a racemate.
By dint of skilful inoculation with the appropriate lactobacilli it is possible to promote the formation of L(+)-lactic acid in such products. [the good stuff]
.....A nutritional adjustment has to take place, with a move towards a diet rich in vital foods, free of products containing cow's milk, hen's eggs and pork.
So, cow's milk products are generally out, unless they are carefully `cultured' to produce the proper lactic acid..... (wonder why eggs are out?)
Hmmmm. Is this the secret of Progurt?!!.... They've carefully cultured the proper lactobacilli to generate the formation of the `beneficial' form of lactic acid - the L(+) form?
And wouldn't this explain why it is so VERY crucial that UHT or ultra-pasteurized milk be used to insure that no racemates (mixtures of lactic acids) occur during incubation?
I REALLY encourage others to read this article that Selma posted about.
The Ron Schmidt's story is of interest, R62 - apparently he is a proponent of raw mild and nearly raw animal products. Much of what he talked about I could relate to from experience - things that should make me feel better really didn't, etc.
LP, that is VERY interesting..... I had no idea they could `monitor' lactic acid levels in the body, for starters. I think we've hit on something important here.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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lymeparfait
Unregistered
posted
Tracy, I don't believe the average american gets tested for lactic acid levels. I only know that endurance athletes, particularly swimmers who swim distance events, like the mile or open water competitions learn to be aware of their levels. I would bet that runners do as well, like marathoners, although they don't have to deal with the resistance of water on their arm muscles as swimmers do with the lactic acid build up there.
I"m sure the Olympic Training Center in CO would have more info on this as they work with all high level athletes in each sport. They also are heavily involved in diet, nutrition, and hydration along with recovery. They probably could offer much data for any researcher.
posted
Update: We tried to incubate with sweetened hemp milk, and at 24 hrs the end product was still sweet so the sugar wasn't entirely converted to lactic acid.
We still stay with the unsweetened hemp milk
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Okay, not trying to be negative, trying to understand. Will the progurt bacteria replicate in the gut. Scott talked about it colonizing and so you could taper down eventually. Does that mean it reproduces in the gut?
Finally, if I just want to start with sachet due to milk sensivity do I just pour the sachet in a glass of water and drink the whole satchel at once. I called the guy in Australia and he said to try 3-4 satchels per week without the milk, but I forgot to ask if it was one whole satchel at a time or to divide them up.
I didnt know these strains were human...
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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SForsgren
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Don't know. Never tried it. Let us know if you do. So far, I've not seen anything else compare but worth a try. I took HLC Human Strain for awhile and didn't notice anything like with Progurt.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
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posted
I got my metametrix GI function profile back:
bad/good bacteria in good balance no parasites detected (they have the most sensitive DNA testing for parasites available) yeast still +3 (very high)
So everything looks like it's in good balance. I wish I'd done this test before progurt to compare and contrast
Yeast has always been a huge issue for me, and although my doctor rarely sees it higher than +1, +2, she said before Progurt it may have been +4, +5
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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Truthfinder
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posted
Hiker, I'm not sure on that, but suspect that `aseptic' milk would suffice. I can't answer your other question - does Robert answer e-mails? You might try that instead of calling.
Interesting R62.... I spent half an hour trying to sort out their probiotic products and came away totally confused. And why some have FOS and some don't is confusing, too. I looked up `constipation' and they don't recommend ANY of their probiotic products as helpful for that. I find that odd.
Well, I've been taking sachets of 100 billion CFU of gut flora for the past 2 days - just standard-type probiotics that we're all familiar with - and not much is happening. (That's the `bug equivalent' of a small bowl of prepared Progurt.)
Perhaps this proves that I am not a cow.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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Just to give an update, I spoke to Robert at Progurt last night and he told me to pour a sachet into my mouth and then drink some water to wash it down, then drink a glass of water 15mins later.
Previously Ive been empyting one sachet into a large glass of water and drinking it all at once. I tried the way he suggested today and it is doable but it is a bit tricky too because the powder ends up getting stuck in your throat and up your nose making you cough before you're able to down the water!! I'm not sure why he suggested taking it that way and I didnt have a chance to ask him last night as it was very late.
Ive been taking the sachets (one a day) since Friday bar one day and as far as my reactions, Ive been having more bowel movements and I think I have more energy too which is good news... eg this morning I had more strength than usual, esp in my legs which did feel unusual (I am in stage 5-6 adrenal exhaustion). Progurt is the only new thing I'm taking at the moment so I'm pretty sure its down to that...Ive even stopped taking my thyroid meds to see the effects of the Progurt.
I think that it is stirring up candida & mercury too as Ive also been feeling more toxic in my head aswell, sometimes severely so tho I am not sure if that is completely down to the progurt.
So overall I definitely feel its doing something significant and will stick with it and will try making the liquid when my incubator arrives.
Take care
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
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Truthfinder
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I wonder why the powder can't be mixed with water or something....?
The sachets I am taking - it says to mix the powder into applesauce or juice. I use applesauce and it works great.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
FYI -- I have been taking 1 cup of Progurt for 3 days now, I have had a decrease in my diarrhea -- HOWEVER, I have also (coincidentally) been off Omnicef during that time while my doc switches me to Ceftin, so I can't say if the change is due to the Progurt or stopping the Omnicef.
Hopefully I will be able to keep the poops at bay once I start the Ceftin!
-------------------- Wildlife biologist working in tropics since 1997; tick bites in Nicaragua in March 2007, started getting sick May 2007; diagnosed with Lyme based on serological testing in Jan 2009; treatment starting Feb 2009. Wish me luck! Posts: 116 | From Seattle | Registered: Feb 2009
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posted
I didn't exactly let it settle. Chelators/binders/bionic for candida
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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Truthfinder
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Shimmy, I'd DEFINITELY continue to mix the powder in a glass of water and drink it..... taking ANY powder like that can be dangerous because it's so easy to aspirate it into your lungs. And BTW, last night I finally talked to the lady who will be carrying Progurt sachets in the USA (see other thread about that here at LN), and Robert told her to mix the powder in water and drink it. (This was before she had an incubator machine.)
Joey, your tests look good! Even your yeast appears to be responding.
I'm not sure I like the sound of stirring up yeast and heavy metals.... for starters, I'm not sure I would know the signs that this was happening. Besides, I haven't tolerated most of the binders that are often used, except fiber. I was hoping the Progurt itself would help with the elimination of this junk through the bowel.
Something else I learned from talking to the `Progurt USA lady'....
If you use Ultra-pasteurized milk - or any milk that is refrigerated - you have to allow an additional 2 hours or so in the incubator. (Or perhaps you could let your refrigerated milk come to room temp before putting it in the incubator. I'm not sure if that's a good idea or not.) The incubators were designed to be used with UHT milk which requires no refrigeration. Therefore, it will take longer for chilled milk to come to the proper temperature to incubate the Progurt product.
I continue to have zero results with 100 billion CFU of `regular' acidophilis/bifidus product. In fact, I finally had to resort to taking some herbs to help things move on through. However, I did have a couple of days where my diet was pretty bad, so I know that was a contributing factor.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Maybe it will settle down in time, but it does seem like a big risk to wait it out. The Progurt is a push therapy... we're pounding the gut with high dose beneficial flora, so there will be a redox reaction
I would definitely err on the side caution and take binders/chelators if you know for a fact you have metals.
Pectasol seems to be tolerated pretty well. I'm taking metal-free now which is on the expensive side but supposedly envelops metals rather than binds them and exits fecal route. If you want anymore suggestions feel free to PM
As for binders, the green clay that is sold at biopure also seems very well tolerated, and there is supposedly zeolite in there as well
-joey
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Cheers Joey, yes you definitely have to keep on top of things! I'm taking the Dr Schulze formula with charcoal, bentonite clay etc, it is helping a bit.
Hi Tracy
Thanks for that, yes it doesnt seem to be a good idea to take it that way does it, I dont know why he suggested it. I think I will go back to just taking it in water, I'm pretty sure thats how he told me to take it first time round! Plus it seemed to work fine that way anyway.
It is difficult to know whats happening as it could be having an effect on other bugs in my gut but my intuition tells me its candida/metals... symptoms have been worsened brain fog, memory loss, decline in cognitive/analytical abilities, neurological symptoms eg my right arm starts to feel clumsy, a lot of irritability, feelings of unreality and feeling very detached from the world. I also start to feel worse in front of my computer and this has been happening too.
I am pretty sensitive tho and I have a big metal problem, I remember having a pretty strong reaction to kefir in the past when I took a small dose and the die-off was so bad I lost my memory so I was kind of expecting something similar.
I am definitely feeling some benefits tho too so its not all bad :-)
Progurt does help to eliminate but maybe as it works so well in eliminating candida it is inevitable that metals are going to be stirred up too.
Thanks for the extra info re the milk, thats good to know!
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
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posted
Anyone know of a binder that doesn't actually bind ya up?
My issue with toxin binders is that I've found them to be very constipating, which is counterproductive in the detox process.
I'm thinking of starting progurt soon, but I know I have an extremely heavy metal load so I want to get all of these minor details sorted out before I order.
Posts: 710 | From West Coast | Registered: May 2008
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posted
I've heard that the green clay doesn't constipate like regular ol bentonite clay. If however you do get constipated, ground up flax seed is supposed to help.
However, I've been taking glucomannan (konjac fiber) for the last year,and it has never bound me up. it's water soluble so it works different from the other binders, but supposedly just as effectively. Glucomannan is actually the only true toxin binder I've taken for the last year... since pectasol and chlorella both go into the bloodstream. We need both kinds--binders that bind to chelated metals in bloodstream and pure fiber fibers that mop up the gut
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
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posted
Truthfinder, Besides having to keep the progurt in the machine for an extra 2 hours when using the ultra pasteurized whole milk, did the "US progurt lady" say it has to be boiled also? Thanks.
Posts: 67 | From northeast | Registered: Feb 2006
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heiwalove
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posted
as far as i know chlorella doesn't bind you up. it sometimes has the opposite effect, in fact.
Truthfinder
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posted
Well, my post just vanished into thin air....
Welcome, Shimmy.
Little Lymie, I have the very same problem with most binders.
Thanks, Joey - not heard of most of that! Where do you get the glucomannan?
Clancy, the 'US Progurt lady' did not boil the ultra-pasteurized milk. I'm sure she would have said so if she was told to boil it (by Robert).
Yep, chlorella - even the chlorella-p. from BioPure - can bind me up, but then I'm not exactly normal. Even ground flax seed is a problem, mostly that it causes a lot of pain no matter how fine I grind it up. Tried pre-ground stuff, too - same problem.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
When you make yogurt you warm the milk. Why wouldnt this be different?
You get more bang for the buck when you ferment the grains, right? They multiply when you ferment.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
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Truthfinder
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R62, I'll be honest - I'm not altogether sure now much increase in volume of bugs you get when you incubate the Progurt. I suspect that it has more to do with converting the lactose into lactic acid and the additional benefits of that conversion..... but who knows. I may be way off base.
Along those same lines, though it may be possible to `culture' your own Progurt from a previous batch, I wouldn't do it. Two reasons:
1. I wouldn't want to culture any `errant' bacteria - it's always possible that some bacteria could mutate slightly and/or become pathogenic. That's the last thing I need. It's the pathogenic gut flora that may have gotten me into trouble in the first place. (I've studied a little about homeopathic Bowel Nosodes, and pathogenic gut flora is the basis for these remedies.)
2. It's also possible that a slight mutation or degradation of the bacteria would yield a different form of lactic acid. That would NOT be conducive to healing IMHO (see other info here about lactic acid).
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
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