bluelyme
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tnt whats this 1 step giemsa ....
mustard when i use 3 step giemsa with phase 1200X i swear i see little myco or barts? freckle specks on edges of cells is that what you were seeing?
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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TNT
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quote:Originally posted by bluelyme: tnt whats this 1 step giemsa ....
mustard when i use 3 step giemsa with phase 1200X i swear i see little myco or barts? freckle specks on edges of cells is that what you were seeing?
Blue, the stuff I use is a one step Wright-Giemsa from Astral Diagnostics. No fixative step needed because it already contains the methanol and it fixes the sample the same time it stains it. Free samples at:
I use the Quick-I "Blue" (Ha Ha), and Quick-I "Red." If you call them, they should be able to send you samples of both. Just remember to use sterile pipettes to transfer about 1ml of stain from your bottle of stain to your slide. Otherwise you contaminate the (bottle of) stain and that can introduce artifacts and contaminates to your sample when staining and to successive samples.
Contaminated stain can produce those tiny "Bart" dots en-mass on your sample, but more likely it's from unwashed slides. I find that even the "pre-cleaned" slides need to washed with soap and water before using them. I've been experimenting by placing the slides on a stainless steel slide holder and putting them through the dishwasher. But, they are still not getting clean. I am having to revert back to hand-washing with soap and water because of those "Bart" dots. It's very frustrating when a slide contains those dots because there is no way to determine if the blood sample truly shows the presence of Bartonella or Mycoplasma. That's why it's imperative to make sure the slides are thoroughly cleaned and dried before making a smear.
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bluelyme
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i'm gunna try it out tnt... they just sent some said id have to go thru distributor if i liked . they don't do private practice....1 step im 66% more efficient thanks
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TNT
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It can happen.....IN THE U.S. : Malaria infection via BLOOD TRANSFUSION!!! And, the blood had been irradiated!
Blood Bank Case Study: Transfusion Transmitted Malaria
Case Study
A 26 year old African American female with sickle cell anemia presented to a New York emergency room with cough, chest pain, fever and shortness of breath. Laboratory results showed an increased white blood cell count, slightly decreased platelet count and a hemoglobin of 6.2 g/dl. Her reticulocyte count was 7%, considerably below her baseline of 13%. Consulting the patient’s medical records revealed history of stroke as a child and subsequent treatment with chronic blood transfusions. She was admitted to the hospital for acute chest syndrome and aplastic crisis and care was transferred to her hematologist. Two units of RBCs were ordered for transfusion.
The blood bank technologists checked the patient’s blood bank history and noted her blood type was A, Rh(D) positive, with a history of a warm autoantibody and anti-E. The current blood bank sample confirmed the patient was blood type A, RH(D) positive with a negative DAT but the antibody screen was positive. Anti-E was identified. Per request of the hematologist, phenotypically similar units were found and the patient was transfused with 2 units of A RH(negative), C/E/K negative, HgS negative, irradiated blood. The patient’s hemoglobin rose to 8g/dl and she was discharged from the hospital 3 days after transfusion.
Ten days after discharge the patient returned to the emergency room with symptoms including aching muscles, fever and chills. A delayed transfusion reaction was suspected. A type and screen was immediately sent to the blood bank. The post transfusion type and screen remained positive for anti-E, DAT was negative. No additional antibodies were identified. However, a CBC sent to the lab at the same time revealed malarial parasites on the peripheral smear. The patient was consulted for a more complete medical history and reported that she had never traveled outside of the country. A pathology review was ordered and the patient was started on treatment for Plasmodium falciparum.
Discussion
Red Blood cell transfusions can be life saving for patients with sickle cells anemia. These patients are frequently transfused by either simple transfusion of red cell units or by exchange transfusion. Because of this, alloimmunization is reported to occur in 20% to 40% of sickle cell patients.(1) Blood bank technologists are very diligent in adhering to strict procedures and follow a standard of practice aimed to prevent transfusion reactions. While preventing immune transfusion reactions may be the most forefront in our minds when transfusing the alloimmunized patient, it is important to consider transfusion transmitted diseases as a potential complication of blood transfusions.
Malaria is caused by a red blood cell parasite of any of the Plasmodium species. Mosquito transmitted infection is transmitted to humans through the bite of an infected mosquito. Transfusion-transmitted malaria is an accidental Plasmodium infection caused by a blood transfusion from a malaria infected donor to a recipient.
Donors, especially those from malarial endemic countries who may have partial immunity, may have very low subclinical levels of Plasmodium in their blood for years. Even these very low levels of parasites are sufficient to transmit malaria to a recipient of a blood donation. Though very rare, transfusion-transmitted malaria remains a serious concern for transfusion recipients. These transfusion-transmitted malaria cases can cause high percent parisitemia because the transfused blood releases malarial parasites directly into the recipient’s blood stream.
Blood is considered a medication in the United States, and, as such, is closely regulated by the FDA. Blood banks test a sample of blood from each donation to identify any potential infectious agents. Blood donations in the US are carefully screened for 8 infectious diseases, but malaria remains one infectious disease for which there is no FDA-approved screening test available. For this reason, screening is accomplished solely by donor questioning.(2) A donor is deferred from donating if they have had possible exposure to malaria or have had a malarial infection. Deferral is 12 months after travel to an endemic region, and 3 years after living in an endemic region. In addition, a donor is deferred from donating for 3 years after recovering from malaria. It is important, therefore, for careful screening to take place by questionnaire and in person, to make sure that the potential donor understands and responds appropriately to questions concerning travel and past infection.
Malaria was eliminated from the United States in the early 1950’s. Currently, about 1700 cases of malaria are reported in the US each year, almost all of them in recent travelers to endemic areas. From 1963-2015, there have been 97 cases of accidental transfusion-transmitted malaria reported in the United States. The estimated incidence of transfusion-transmitted malaria is less than 1 case in 1 million units.(4) Approximately two thirds of these cases could have been prevented if the implicated donors had been deferred according to the above established guidelines.(3) While the risk of catching a virus or any other blood-borne infection from a blood transfusion is very low, a blood supply with zero risk of transmitting infectious disease may be unattainable. With that being said, the blood supply in the United Sates today is the safest it has ever been and continues to become safer as screening tests are added and improved. Careful screening of donors according to the recommended exclusion guidelines remains the best way to prevent transfusion-transmitted malaria.
References
LabQ, Clinical laboratory 2014 No.8, Transfusion Medicine. Jeanne E. Hendrickson, MD, Christopher Tormey, MD, Department of Laboratory Medicine, Yale University School of Medicine Technical Manual, editor Mark K. Fung-18th edition, AABB. 2014. P 201-202 https://www.cdc.gov/malaria/about/facts.html. Accessed April 2018 The New England Journal of Medicine. Transfusion-Transmitted Malaria in the United States from 1963 through 1999. Mary Mungai, MD, Gary Tegtmeier, Ph.D., Mary Chamberland, M.D., M.P.H., June 28, 2001. Accessed April 2018 Malaria Journal. A systematic review of transfusion-transmitted malaria in non-endemic areas. 2018; 17: 36. Published online 2018 Jan 16. doi: 1186/s12936-018-2181-0. Accessed April 2018 http://www.aabb.org/advocacy/regulatorygovernment/donoreligibility/malaria/Pages/default.aspxPosts: 1308 | From Eastern USA | Registered: Oct 2013
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Lymedin2010
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What???? There are spirochetes in Lyme Disease victims blood....say it ain't so?
So, we should lyse the Red Blood Cells in order to see them better and/or detect them via PCR. Sounds like what I had tried to do with the blood freezing method & found a few nice spiros sticking out like a sore thumb.
Here is one such nice spiro, with well definite spirals from my blood after it was frozen in order to lyse many/most of the red blood cells.
"Abstract
Lyme disease is the most frequently reported zoonotic tick-borne disease worldwide, and the number of infected humans is increasing. Lyme disease (or Lyme borreliosis) is an affection caused by the spirochete Borrelia burgdorferi, sensu lato. Lyme disease is also reported as a variety of misleading clinical symptomatologies. Infected patient’s blood serology is the most currently test used for its diagnosis. However, serology has a low sensitivity, which ranges from 34% to 70%.
Thus, there are numerous subsequent false-negative diagnoses despite an active clinical infection profile. Therefore, alternative and more sensitive techniques are required to detect the antigens or nucleic acids of Borrelia. Actually, the most appropriate methodological approach seems to be the polymerase chain reaction (PCR). However, PCR will detect the only “visible” part available of the targeted DNA presence in the blood of the infected patients. Consequently PCR alone will not be conclusive enough to reach the final diagnosis. Considering the ability of Borrelia to invade host cells, we hypothesize that a selective lysis of all blood cells should improve the diagnostic sensitivity of the detection of Borrelia by PCR in whole blood, and subsequently reduce the false-negative diagnostic rate, thus improving the patient’s diagnosis and therapeutic management."
Lymedin2010
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Bluelyme, do you have any pics of your stains?
TNT, have you done any more fluoro work? Anything new?
I finally got to do some "normal blood" Acridine Orange staining & I did not find anything within the rbc's such as what look like co-infections in mine. No spirochetes either. I did find spirochetes in my wife's blood, but she did not have intra-erythrocytic parasites though. I still want to do more normal blood AO staining & to spend some more time on it. I would be more than happy if I see spirochetes in everyone's blood, then I could dismiss them as being other than Borrelia b. or artifacts altogether.
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bluelyme
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or everbody already really does have it?!...i will post some 1 step stains as they shipped me sample like tnt said...
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TNT
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That's interesting Lymedin, but not surprising that you didn't find the intracellular objects nor spirochetes....Because chronic Lyme disease is real and many healthy people will be without the infection.
But, I also believe there are "healthy" people walking around with these things in their blood as well.
Regardless, those things are NOT ARTIFACTS!!!!!
I have less time to use my scope, but have looked at two people's blood in the past month. My acridine orange dried smears just will not turn out. The first person's samples did turn out good enough for me to get some good pics, but the more recent ones were a total flop. I'm beyond frustrated with the AO. I do everything according to the book, but still no success. I wish I knew some local lab personnel to consult about it.
If you're interested in my dried stains Lymedin, I'll try to find time to post a couple pics of them. I have not done any more work with AO wet mounts.
Blue, I can't wait to see some of your stains!!!
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I am working on creating a deep learning model that would allow computer to automatically recognize spirochetes, first from images and later perhaps also from videos.
For this, I would need a collection of images of blood both with spiros and without spiros (with maybe some things that would resemble spiros), preferably from various sources.
I have thought about starting with darkfield non-stained samples as that is what I have as my home setup.
Do some of you wish to participate in this effort?
If you have images, that would be preferable, but videos could work too.
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Lymedin2010
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Looking forward to pics.
TNT, I have never tried dried stains, only live preps. I can look at your dried stained pics. I wish I had more energy & put more effort into looking at more normal blood.
BorreJ. that is quite a task & good luck. I sent you a link to some Giemsa/Wright stained pics on FB & that nice vid. I would only utilize proven stains or fluorescent work for references to make it official & really Borrelia. At best I think you can program a unit to take pictures of all things string-like & give a high priority notifier/count for zig-zag shapes. AO staining would make your project much easier & stand out in the identification & much easier for your program/video capture to spot.
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quote:BorreJ. that is quite a task & good luck. I sent you a link to some Giemsa/Wright stained pics on FB & that nice vid. I would only utilize proven stains or fluorescent work for references to make it official & really Borrelia. At best I think you can program a unit to take pictures of all things string-like & give a high priority notifier/count for zig-zag shapes. AO staining would make your project much easier & stand out in the identification & much easier for your program/video capture to spot.
Yes, saw it, thank you!
Great insights. This is most likely what I will do.
My idea was to make some part of the work a group effort, I have started to build a platform for sharing the work.
However, if not too many people are interested, what you are suggesting is a way forward for me.
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Lymedin2010
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Should note that I have been messing with the saturation and everything in the videos.
Looking for a video sharpening tool if anyone has any suggestions. I use Final Cut ProX but it doesn't have a native sharpening tool in editing.
So some things are very bright in the video, also compounded by the really bright light source I use and the adjustments on the objective and the condenser.
I have the objective adjusted to just below the aperture of the condenser, to the point that it is right at the cusp of losing the darkfield and being brightfield. So there is some aberration/artefact from that.
-------------------- Just researching and sharing. Posts: 6 | From Kansas | Registered: Jul 2018
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Anyone have tips as far as AO staining? Setup needed, and where to acquire it.
I haven't looked into it at all.
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bluelyme
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glad to see you back dude ! pm tnt, he was messing with ao ...also a guy on healing well john b ...but he has some funny pics ...there maybe a post back a few pages
-------------------- Blue Posts: 1539 | From southwest | Registered: Dec 2015
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This post went to the wrong place last night, I'm trying again.
I just found this thread today. I've been looking at my blood smear for a couple of months now and making video's. My wife says it's my new addiction. I've been on the buhner protocol for about 4 months now. In the beginning I saw these (things) everywhere in my smears, now very few. I would greatly appreciate your opinions on what it is. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bc1ou6tySo
I explain how I diluted it down in this video description. After, I just take a drop of my diluted AO on 1 drop of blood & seal the cover slip sides with oil, even though I was only using 40x. I only seal the sides of the cover slip & not the entire cover slip. Some of the stains take right away & as time progresses more & more of the cells absorb the stain. Sometimes you have to wait 1-2 hrs, a few hours, or even the next day more will get absorbed & the stains will be brighter. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qlL8ZLitiBI
Lymedin2010
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DonN great video captures. In the 2nd video does it look like they are spiraling with true spirals. Hard to see clearly, but almost looks like it.
That is what we are calling spirochetes, but more testing is needed to know for sure. Best is to use DNA specific stains to know the exact species when it is a living subject.
What I noticed is that when I first got sick I could not find them in my blood & as I got sicker I was able to find them more & more and nowadays they are plentiful in my blood.
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TNT
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quote:Originally posted by Lymedin2010: Thanks TNT! I think collectively we did & learned a lot together.
Looking forward to seeing some new stuff from you.
Not long ago I did a wet mount stained with AO and was able to see quite the number of string spirochete to round body (spheroplast) conversions. But, I had started using a new camera and thought I was recording video when in fact I simply had video mode on, but was not recording. So, when I went back and looked at those videos there was only one saved from that sitting and it was only a couple-second clip that unfortunately did not catch the actual conversion. I was so disappointed. BUT, I am going to get this for you guys to see!
This is not exactly what you are hoping for, Lymedin2010 (but like I said, I'm working on that), but recently I got my acridine orange dried smears to turn out for the most part. And, very recently I got some amazing pics from one of those dried AO smears!
I repeat, pics from dried acridine orange smears.
Check these out! Let me know if you guys can't view the links.
[ 01-04-2019, 11:13 PM: Message edited by: TNT ]
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Lymedin2010
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Sorry TNT, been a few months & have not done any microscopy for a while. Gonna get back into it soon. Very nice captures, really impressive. A live AO round body conversion would be priceless to capture. Did they gyrate like the ones we see in our blood & wonder about?
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Lymedin2010
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Here is a wet mount of Acridine Orange & tick spirochetes. Under UV lights the tick spirochetes stop spiraling aggressively & just gyrate in place in a similar way to what can be seen in Lyme blood. When the UV lights are turned off then many can be seen resuming aggressive movement/spiraling.
Spiraling movement of tick spiros can be controlled like a light switch with UV light. When tick spiros are first introduced to a growth media, they can be seen moving fast & over days when the nutrients run out they just gyrate in place. Add nutrients once again or some media to partially kill of some spiros (and to release nutrients from the killed spiros), then some of the ticks can resume their rapid motion once again. I have witnessed this many times.
posted
Hi all new on here so please go easy on me.Hopefully im posting in the right place. I have been suffering with health issues the last 14 years or more and could never work it out and neither could the Drs. Ive been tested for for all sorts including Lyme which came back negative but as we all know the test used is pointless for atleast half of us. I do plan on getting testing done after this lockdown is over with by sending my blood to Arminlabs in Germany. However i have recently bought a microscope to look for Lyme etc ......
I have bought the slides,cover slips and immersion oil and used the methods set out by Borrellia Tamer on youtube. I can see hundreds of black/white dots moving erratically around in the blood samples. Heres some vids.....
So my question to everyone on here is what can i do to make these easier to see or make out. Would anyone like to guess what they are? Im sure this has been asked before but i am desperate to get to the bottom of this. Many thanks all
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copied this over from your other thread in case that gets deleted. __________________ I haven't read the microscopy thread - I may add that to my reading list but wanted to say well done for getting this far in terms of getting reasonable images from a microscope on a budget.
it's not easy. I went down this track a little way looking for gut parasites as I had lots of gut symptoms and negative lab tests. but then some MD's say that several negative tests mean there is no parasite as often the tests will not pick it up - and so I reasoned that I could buy a microscope and do it myself every day for weeks for the price of 1 or two tests.
one of the issues you quickly run into is that of various artifacts that look like something sinister - but may not be
for instance, anything really small suspended in liquid will tend to move around randomly and or vibrate due to something called Brownian motion - basically stuff getting bumped into by water molecules that are vibrating - as all molecules in liquids above their melting points vibrate and move around a lot.
i'm guessing the microscopy thread will go into this in more detail - but there is an issue with trying to spot boreliia with a light microscope - even the best ones. this is basically due to the very small diameter of the borrelia spirochete - its basically too thin vs the wavelength of visible light - and as a result, it simply doesn't show up ( is effectively invisible ) in standard techniques. the normal technique for visualizing them in blood etc is to use a technique called dark-field microscopy = direct light passing through the target is blocked and instead a special condenser arrangement is used to bounce light off the target at acute angles - enabling the very thin spirochete to be seen due to refraction type effects eg here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnsuiSKGDRs
note how everything in suspension jiggles in that clip also
I suspect the moving particles in the last clip you posted may also be an artifact - possibly some kind of lensing effect by the round structure/cell causing a kind of enhanced focus on a few particles in direct line with it.
you could consider staining as a possible route to explore more potential pathogens. many can be stained with things like Giemsa - and that can be done at home. certainly babesia and bartonella also - although for the very small bacteria like that you need a very good quality microscope ( up to 400 or co can fit in a singe red bloocd cell.
also bear in mind if you are still alive after 14 years then the levels of bacteremia or parasitemia ( the number of infected cells vs normal ones ) is v unlikely to be as shown in text books - those are usually the most extreme cases. in reality, in many diseases the levels typically found are one pathogen per entire field of view at 400 or 1000x - esp if it's a chronic condition.
I share your pain and commend your ingenuity and persistence
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Thanks for the reply Garz. One of my first symptoms were gut related.Woke up at half 3 in the morning with gut pains that id never felt before and looked pregnant with nausea and wanted to vomit but couldn't. This lasted 2 days and the rest is history lol I have had the black specs/fibers which is morgellons although im lucky as i have no sores on my skin and have been able to control it with diet. Sugar and high carb foods are a no no. If i eat sugar the headaches,biting.itching,stinging sensations,painful face aches down the left side which make me look like ive had a stroke,eyebrow and eyelash loss all kicks in. Ive had Bells Palsy once and i also have arthritis pains which started when i was 30,im now 41. I must look like a crack head when this is going on And from what ive read of the work of Dr Ginger Savely the No1 pathogen for the cause is Lyme disease. When i first got the microscope i looked at my blood smear without a glass slide and yes you are correct,by just touching the focus knob everything wobbles which doesn't happen when i apply a slide over the smear. I only used my phone to record those videos and i don't have the sturdiest of hands so that might add to a shaky video but i can see alot clearly by eye than what it appears on the videos. I have ordered some patch filters to experiment with in my condenser,not sure if this will help but worth a try i suppose....
Ive spent hours so far watching these things in my blood and every now and then just for a few seconds i can see what looks like a spirochete wiggling about. I do wander if the dots in my videos are maybe 2 ends of a spirochete but due to lighting the body isnt showing properly but only my guess. Ive also looked at a drop of my urine without a cover slip and although there's not many in there they are still there. Whatever these are i must be riddled lol Ill have to look into staining and how to do it,there must be some videos on youtube explaing this. Many thanks for your reply Garz,i hope what ive wrote makes sense as my brain aint what it used to be with the fog! Posts: 8 | From UK | Registered: May 2020
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yes - it makes sense - but I think that you are seeing is Brownian motion, not wobble/vibrations in the microscope - although that is of course also an issue. there are normally small particles in our blood called platelets - these will also move with Brownian motion. there is also often microscopic debris on slides and coverslips straight from the sealed packet which is frustrating and can introduce further artifacts. distinguishing these from tiny bacteria via unstained microscopy is difficult, to say the least.
staining thin smears can help here.
by the way - I used a large metal washer as a spacer - and some blue tack to fi the phone in the right place above the eyepiece to be able to focus and photograph steady images. there are some nuances with how phones autofocus vs microscope focal length which detracts from image quality but it can be acceptable.
I don't think colored filters will help much - due to the physics of the light microscope - the critters you are trying to see are thinner than can be seen with a normal light microscope - but filters are relatively cheap so, by all means, give it a go
ref diagnosis - bells Palsey is a classic sign associated with Lyme - but also occurs occasionally with viral infections
the signs you mention of biting, itching burning sensations sound like peripheral neuropathies which are also v common with Lyme.
mortgellons, hard grains or fibres in the skin - is a disorder associated with borrelia infection - and some say other intracellular bacteria like Bartonella. i have some of that too - including sores on my scalp - another sign of infection rather than other causes of illness.
one of the best differentiating symptoms for Lyme diagnosis vs CFS, fibromyalgia etc used by perhaps the most experienced Lyme MD - Dr Horiowitz ( i recommend reading all his books by the way ) - is pain that comes and goes or moves around the body - eg a knee one day, an ankle a few days later and a shoulder or neck a few days / weeks after that - he published a paper on this single symptoms ability to help differentiate the diagnosis.
if you have all of these things then it would certainly put Lyme at the top of the list of possible causes if it were me (actually i have all the same, except bells palsy)
bear in mind a few things
you can and most do have co-morbidities that is - you may well have a lyme infection - but that does not mean that you do not also have fibromyalgia ( Dr Tietlebaum fr instance quotes lyme as one of the most common causes of CFS and Fibromyalgia) - or a gut pathogen for instance. in fact, these co-morbidities are the norm with lyme rather than the exception - as it interferes with the immune system leading to people becoming susceptible to more chronic infections. the combination of which is different in each case leading to many of the complexities seen in Lyme patients.
most say overt gut issues with Lyme alone are not typical - but both my partner and I have had this symptom and suspect either the strain of Lyme we have does in fact do this - or it is due to a co-infection - potentially mycoplasma or even an enterovirus
ultimately it seems most likely many or even most of us will never definitively know whether we have lyme or something else with 100% certainty = unless we are lucky and fall into the "fortunate" 50% who get a clear test result or bulls-eye rash - everything, therefore, must become a decision based on a probabilistic approach - rather than a deterministic one.
This is a very hard pill to swallow - as human beings we like certainty - but I would encourage you to bite the bullet, swallow the pill, and start making treatment decisions on a probabilistic approach to allow you to move forward.
if after all in 5 years you are still looking for the definitive - you will be unlikely to have moved forward - alternatively, in 5 years, you could have tried 20 or more approaches and know a great deal more about what works for you and what doesn't.
I would also encourage testing - but not because it is likely to provide a definitive black and white answer - it simply isn't - but because if it is very carefully researched and reasoned with, it is more information to put into the probabilistic approach.
this is at least my own reasoning.
[ 05-10-2020, 12:46 PM: Message edited by: Garz ]
Posts: 245 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020
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Its hard for me to explain but this isn't Brownian motion. Say theres a clearing in the blood cells and there's no plasma flow and all cells are still without moving there will be these little critters wriggling around in that circle. If you saw it you would understand. You'd have to be there kind of thing. With staining would i need to let the blood dry on the slide first then soak in a stain then wash the stain off after a certain time before viewing would you know? Again this lockdown needs to end for me so i can get the proper testing done,atleast ill know for sure whats inside me. This is where i got the idea for the filters from......
but from my reading, there are also various modified forms of the process that are suitable for field use that is perhaps more suitable for home use
it is also possible to do so at home with a more limited set of reagents possibly just 96% ethanol and Giemsa stain and water
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Thanks Garz,i shall look into this and order some. Any ideas on what cameras people are using? I have seen videos like mine yet they zoom in with a camera and are able to zoom in that much that you can clearly see the spirochetes moving around.
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Well ive just had my results back from Arminlabs. Positive for Borrelia Burgdoferi. Looks like it will be worth spending money on a fancy camera now!
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babesia has never really been high up the list for me.
its almost never discussed in Europe
i have never had any severe sweats or fevers or "air hunger" so there has been nothing to suggest it was responsible for my symptoms - at least nothing that wasn't just as well explained by Bart and or Lyme.
however - one of the little projects on my list was to try to do some home blood smears stained with giemsa stain and looking for anything untoward in the blood
I don't have the proper equipment - but i had enough to do the basics - and an old biological microscope that is functional if a bit dilapidated - so i thought i would at least do a first rough attempt and see what i could see.
there were a few issues - the stain was only relatively faint and so the contrast is lower than it could be - and the microscope lamp was not as adjustable as i would like - the only camera i have is an iphone strapped to the eyepiece so the photos are not great - but crisp images of red blood cells via light microscopy s challenging at the best of times
but what i found surprised me
i was aware that bart would likely be to small to see - unless in v high numbers - which is rare - -mycoplasma can be more numerous and i have seen others have successfully stained it with giemsa - but what i found looks to be too big for mycoplasma - circular or spherical in shape and and only one occupant per cell - and all of similar size - so very much like Babesia - esp babesia microtii - but there are many many species of babesia and Theileria and more being discovered -
i dont think they are artefacts - as they are all inside the red blood cells - and all the same size and they are picking up the stain and showing a lilac color - which is what pyroplasts are supposed to do
i will link to pictures of some found in dogs in Portugal that look v similar
[ 10-14-2021, 11:43 AM: Message edited by: Garz ]
Posts: 245 | From UK | Registered: Feb 2020
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TNT
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Garz, the links to your pics don't work. It says "that page doesn't exist."
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Bartenderbonnie
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Garz, here are some photo stains from Dr J’s blog;
quote:Originally posted by TNT: Garz, the links to your pics don't work. It says "that page doesn't exist."
thanks for letting me know - i had posted this on another forum - the links worked fine there - copied and pasted the whole post here and for some reason they are broken
so have re-entered them and they seem to be working now - must be just some odd forum software randomness i think
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Sorry I’m bombarding you but this is what I’m researching as I’m entering month 3 of Babs treatment. Before treating Babs and while treating Babs, are equally treacherous.
Posts: 2977 | From Florida | Registered: Nov 2016
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posted
thanks Bonnie - don't apologise - i will read them all - may just take me a while
in the first like there was massive amounts of parasitemia - but the patient tested negative for antibodies to B. duncani and microtii
also no night sweats or air hunger - like me
which anti malarias are you trying and how has the treatment gone?
are you suffering herx like reactions from babesia ?
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Bartenderbonnie
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Thanks for asking about me.
First month of Mepron, Doxy, Bixan, Plaquniel, Nystatin, Cryptolepis, and Flagyl on weekends.
No improvement, that’s normal, can’t beat beast in one month.
Second month was changed to 14 days of Coartem minus the Mepron, plus the other meds.
No improvement, that’s normal, can’t beat beast in 2 months.
Third month back to original meds.
Herx is so different from Lyme, tight painful squeezing band around chest (MS hug), sweats that last hours instead of 15 minute intervals. spleen pain, bladder pain, and pain radiating from every joint, muscle, tendon, bones, knees, brain, almost requiring ER visit similar to a really bad car crash.
Top it off with vomiting, severe brain fog, short term memory within 1 second, fatigue thats resulting in being bedridden for the past 3 weeks. Had my first smile today in 8 months since the relapse, waited too long to connect with LLMD. (money)
I don’t have air hunger but I hiccup and yawn alot.
I’m confident I will crawl out of the abyss. Much more patient due to previous experiences, gotta ride it out and trust the process.
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wow - Bonnie - sounds like you are going through the mill with it!
onwards and upwards though!
thanks for the info and feedback i would hope by 3 months you will have made some inroads into the bug population and things should start to improve i have heard and read that red blood cells live 120 days on average so can be hard to kill the babesia etc protected inside them in less than this - so hopefully you are getting to the point where you will see more encouraging results
thats quite a combo i assume the nystatin was for prevention of candida / yeast overgrowth while on the other abx
is flagyl aimed at Babesia or something else ?
any observations / feeling about the relative effects of Mepron vs Coartem?
sorry for all the questions - no need to reply if you are feeling rough
all the best
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Bartenderbonnie
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Yes, nystatin for candida/yeast overgrowth. It really works, no more bloated gut or white tongue.
Flagyl for cyst forms of Bb, some activity against Babs.
Mepron works but I’m finding I am becoming resistant. Coartem is usually used after Mepron, noticed no improvement, every patient different.
I can always tell when Babs comes back, I start crying over dead dogs I’ve owned over the years.
Last year Babs came back, I ordered Researched Nutritionals Crypto-Plus but no improvement so I ordered crypto from other company. It worked within 2 days, it apwas amazing.
I have searched through my journal, receipts, e-mails for confirmation of my order, can’t find what was my MIRACLE cryto.
Enough about me.
It crazy we have to deal with that always lingering doubt of diagnosis’s. Most people dread a life altering diagnosis but we relish them. You slides clearly show a pathogen
I anxiously await your future and experiments and confirmations.
Just because you don’t fit the Babs model doesn’t mean it’s not possible. I have high platelets where diagnosticly it shows low platelet counts. Dr H says it can be either or. Platelet count goes to normal ranges after treatment.
I have high cholesterol, both good and bad. I think this is a good thing, it’s doing it’s job in protecting structural damage caused by TBI’s.
if you look at the red arrows - these are clearly babesia - about 1/3 of the width of a red blood cell - ring shaped "ring forms" picking up both blue / purple and pink tones of the stain showing some internal structure - one or two per rbc - much bigger than the things in mine though
now look at the inclusions with the black arrows - these are much smaller - approx 1/10th of the width of the red blood cell - appear to be uniform in colour - no structure visible - these are very much like mine - but too small to be babesia i think
i have been discussing these results with others who are being treated by the bart guru - Dr M - he analysed peoples slides who have confirmed bartonella by several test methods and says he sees these small inclusions (the ones with the black arrows) in these patients and strongly suspects bart causes them somehow - but also cannot rule out some other rbc infecting organism
do you have or suspect you have bartonella also ?
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Bartenderbonnie
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Have you considered the different growing stages of Babs in your hypothesis?
I have confirmed Cat Scratch fever and clinical Bart. I also have common variable immune disorder, my body does not make antibodies so testing is fruitless. But microscopy would be the ticket for me, everyone really.
With Bart I get severe anxiety, cant even leave the house. I was treated for Bart 2 1/2 years ago and don’t believe I’ve had a relapse. Was on Rifamin 6 months.
My Cat Scratch was from my cat, who bit me in the hand several years ago. Put ointment on it, forgot about it. Daughter was moving into college so I was out of town for the weekend with her. The next day it was inflamed red, she told me to go to the ER. I didn’t because it didn’t hurt and it was parents weekend. The following day, bright red vein all the way up to my lymph nodes under arm. Major.
Drove back into town to ER. They scolded me about waiting, said it was very serious and hooked me up to 3 IV lines. Had to stay overnight. Said the infection was gone. Who knows really?
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yep - considering these could all be early forms of babesia as you intimate - b. microtii also often presents typically as small ring forms
planning on doing some more slides in about a week to see if anything looks different
thing i will upgrade my scope a little to see if i can get cleaner images also
if i get anything more definitive i will report back
i am also negative on serology - bart is known to mess with the bodies ability to produce antibodies to it and in any case there are about 45 common antigens made by the different bart species - and most labs only test for two - quintana and henslea - so its really a pretty poor way to try to detect it.
i was scratched and bitten by several cats over the years - one used to have fits and scratch the hell out of me and then literally climb the walls
was also bitten by a feral kitten - looked very cute till i picked it up and it turned into some kind of frenzied fang and claw killing machine from hell!!!!
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Bartenderbonnie
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Uh ohh not good. The top LLMD’s say no pets.
I think you might gain insight from this. Dr S says sometimes it takes up to 30 minutes to spot Babesia on slides. Here is the most comprehensive documentation on Babesia.
posted
Wow - Bonnie - what an amazing resource - i am up to page 182 and my head is hurting - but its exactly what I needed in terms of diagnosing visually between the two organisms - great find!!!
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Bartenderbonnie
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Your welcome.
I should have posted it first for you but I forgot about Dr S. I follow all the top LLMD’s on a consistent basis, as probably you do too.
With all these dedicated treatment seekers, you would think we’d have better options. Even Dr S says the current Babs treatment protocols are inadequate.
Maybe higher doses? Some LLMD’s have found higher doses of Amox for Lyme better.
Posts: 2977 | From Florida | Registered: Nov 2016
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yep, i dont follow all of them - more sample the bits i find useful - as really they dont have all the answers either
but i have read some of his stuff before - found his differential diagnosis between lyme babs bart etc one of the better ones
the guide is excelent and shows how far from clear cut diagnosing from stained slides is
his guidance is much along the lines that i was concerned about - lack of other morphologies ( other than small dots on the surface) is not usual for Babesia - normally there would be ring forms and line forms and dot clster forms etc - Babesia is known for its multiple morphologies
the items on my slides could even be platelets or even some natural phenomenon where the spleen does not remove the nucleus from red blood cells properly - called howell-jolly bodies
i think i will need to upgrade my scope and do more slides....
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Bartenderbonnie
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Fascinating Garz
This morning I had a hard time opening my eyelids. I lay in bed and have to physically think about how to open my eyelids. My eyes were ‘seeing’ the inside of my eyelids. I saw hundreds of gram- negative rods bouncing around, bumping into each other, turning around and backing into others. Crazy huh?
Gonna lay off slides for awhile. . .
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Bartenderbonnie
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actually i have looked into that before and read the Corson ebook at the time.
i have since come to the conclusion that what fry labs, who "discovered" this ProtoMyxzoa Rhematica organism, were seeing was fibrin from bartonella or bartonella like organisms and their biofilms
as far as i could ascertain - no other lab has reported duplicating their findings or validated the existence of the novel PR organism - which i think would have happened by now - some 10 years later if it did exist as a new species - and fry have now backed away from it somewhat also.
they do however do work on bartonella staining and diagnosis.
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posted
ps i have sourced a suitable 100x oil objective for my microscope in order to get better resolution images - i just need to figure out how to get the optics perfectly clean and will re-run the experiment to see what i can see
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