Topic: Bionic 880 thread - promise I won't delete it
TadichGrill
Unregistered
posted
I object to the FDA, the CDC and the IDSA. Where can we ship them back to?
IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
i received a pm from someone who went to germany who informed me it is very possible to get to dobel and from dobel to pforzheim using buses & trains.
posted
That is horrible about Dr. K. And they say we live in a FREE country.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
pamoisondelune
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11846
posted
Here's the thread from the other forum, a bit out of order: (i edited out the name of the doctor, but it is the doctor you think it is): ------------------------------------
Re: [rife-list] Another assault from the FDA Friday, April 17, 2009 10:58 AM From: "Richard Loyd" [email protected]
engineer188@ sbcglobal. net wrote: > > > Dr. Loyd, do we know the name of this machine or a company website? > > Thanks > > Joe >
[Rife] Re: Another assault from the FDA From: "W. D. Mindock" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It could be the Bionic 880 but I do not have confirmation.
peachynga@bellsouth .net wrote: > > > I believe this is referencing the Bionic 800 LED machine. Several people > in the U.S. have travelled to Germany for treatment (for Lyme). It's > getting good reviews. > > Linda > >
ife-list] Another assault from the FDA Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:57 PM From: "Richard Loyd" <[email protected]> Add sender to Contacts To: "Rife-List" <[email protected]>
Dr K.... of Seattle was recently visited by the FDA/drug company enforcers. They object to his selling a device that he imports from Europe. It apparently uses light and frequencies. The feds want his list of customers and want him to buy back all the units and ship them back to Europe. He says that he is meeting with them tomorrow.
It must be a good piece of equipment!
[rife-list] Another assault from the FDA Thursday, April 16, 2009 8:57 PM From: "Richard Loyd" [email protected]
--- In Rife@yahoogroups. com, Richard Loyd <drloyd@...> wrote: > > Dr K.... of Seattle was recently visited by the FDA/drug company enforcers. They > object to his selling a device that he imports from Europe. It apparently uses light and > frequencies. The feds want his list of customers and want him to buy back all the units and ship > them back to Europe. He says that he is meeting with them tomorrow. > > It must be a good piece of equipment! > > Richard Loyd > http://www.royalrif e.com >
Posts: 1226 | From USA | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
I wondered when the FDA would stick their nose in here. But Dr. K. isn't `selling' any machines, is he?
Still, any practitioner using a machine that isn't FDA approved could get into big trouble..... which is exactly why we don't see more `innovative' therapies offered in this country. Depending on the laws of the state, even Naturopaths are limited by law to treatments that have been approved by some national naturopathic association.
This is awful. I'm really upset about this, no matter what machine they are talking about.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is why I decided to go to Germany sooner rather than later.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
seekhelp
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 15067
posted
The government sure cares a lot about us, huh? So nice. Posts: 7545 | From The 5th Dimension - The Twilight Zone | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
the bus goes right by the klein's house and ends up in pforzheim only a few blocks from his OLD office. i don't know where his new office is in relation to the bus station.
i feel bad for dr k. if scott or someone else who knows him can extend our thoughts of best wishes his way...
-------------------- do your best to educate the rest because 9 out of 10 doctors don't know jack about tick borne illnesses Posts: 437 | From shawangunk mountains, ny | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
They can't stop us from buying the bionic from germany can they? That would be multiply insane. How does germany deal with these issues or do they not exist there? Do devices have to be approved by some government entity?
Does Canada have the same laws?
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
It was really all a matter of time, although I've heard nothing about Dr. K selling the bionic.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
R62, I guess at some point they could stop letting us bring them into the country ...... but they can't prevent us from buying them.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
TadichGrill
Unregistered
posted
As another European doctor told me in an email last night regarding the FDA and Dr. K. "He does not deserve this."
He certainly does not. An attack on any LLMD is an indirect attack on all of us even if you are not into alternative medicine.
Dr. K. has helped many of us indirectly and so has Gigi. Many LLMDs would not be giving their patients rizols now and paying attention to heavy metals if it was not for Dr. K. or Gigi. Heck many of us would not be treating with the Bionic 880 or German Allergy drops if it was not for Gigi who learned so much from Dr. K.
I wish we could start a website where we could all write Dr. K. notes of public support. I don't know how to create a web page or I would do it. I hope someone does.
I am thankful for Dr. K. and his refreshing holistic views and protocols and for looking at the different complex conditions our complicated illnesses create. It is not just about the Lyme and we know that due to Dr. K.
IP: Logged |
SForsgren
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 7686
posted
I 100% agree TadichGrill. I could not have said it better. My journey has been ENTIRELY changed from my working with Dr. K. I'm not sure where I would be today had I not been fortunate enough to work with him.
I hold Dr. K in the highest regard.
-------------------- Be well, Scott Posts: 4617 | From San Jose, CA | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged |
TadichGrill
Unregistered
posted
Dr. K's protocols have trickled down to many who might not even be aware that some of the things their current LLMDs are doing with them originated with Dr. K. and his ability to think outside the mainstream box.
IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
I think this was not the Bionic. It was another machine, if my informers are right...
But a photon machine.
Free country! It makes me laugh everytime I hear that. I wonder what kind of schizofrenic frenze are most Americans living when they keep repeating to themselves they live in a free country.
Every alternative practioner in the US seems to practice under fear.
The FDA is CERTAINLY not worried about health.
I also owe my health to dr. K.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is the excuse for logic behind this? (not the motive) A light device? I can see an attempt at rationale regarding ingested substances that can kill you... although we all know how ridiculous that concept can be... as if pharms are safe and cigarettes are illegal.
Posts: 861 | From USA | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged |
sparkle7
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 10397
posted
That was a funny remark, Brussels... (re: schitzo frenzy). Sorry, I have a bizarre sense of humor...
All of this harassment by the FDA has been going on for a while. I think, little by little our supplements may be under the knife by Codex Alimentarius, too.
Food is being tainted with drugs, pesticides, genetic engineering. Organic food farmers are being harassed. People are being forced into taking vaccines. It's all going on systematically & incrementally.
It's not going to happen all at once - it's going to be little by little... and all of a sudden, we are in a police state.
Even if you don't believe that Lyme was genetically engineered to be a bio-weapon...
Posts: 7772 | From Northeast, again... | Registered: Oct 2006
| IP: Logged |
Alv
Unregistered
posted
I also dedicate my surviving towards Dr K metods.AND MANY THANKS TO GIGI that shared her knowledge as well.
YES BRUSSELS!
This is what I have said TO MY FAMILY in EUROPE!
This country is NOT a FREE COUNTRY .I lived in both world and IT MAKES me mad for ever moving in USA.They just do not understand when I speak!
They think HIGHLY of american HEALTH CARE !
No wonder they will go after the machine..as they already atacked somebody that was producing zappers VERY CHEAP for people that can afford it back in 3 years ago in CUREZONE .Com ( they busted his house in the middle of the night).
They did the same with RIFE originaly and so CODEX is trying to do for 2009 on suplements.
Nothing surprises me anymore IN THIS COUNTRY !!!
Feels LIKE I am living in COMUNISSM system !
HIs principels( AFTER I read HULDA CLARCK ) atrackted me right away .I should have been still on IV now...in the situation I was if it was not his metods that I have had to aply the last 2 years .
I did not wanted to change this thread in political opinions..BUT that is HOW THIS politik is involving us and you can not avoid it.We are part of it! YEs the Idea of the website and our testimonies towards his practice is an EXCELLENT idea!
IP: Logged |
heiwalove
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 6467
posted
this frightens me, though sadly it is not surprising. is dr. k in danger here? could his license be taken away?
posted
I know the local papers here keep writing articles saying how wrong it is that parents are not vaccinating their children trying to make their parents wrong so they will confirm. The amazing thing is many more parents are not vaccinating their children than ever before. I think they are starting to realize vaccinations may not be safe even if the media and government keeps bleating that they are.
IP: Logged |
TadichGrill
Unregistered
posted
Maybe the FDA is just wanting to see this machine and have it go through their red tape to enter the country through what they consider proper channels? Or maybe not?
IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
FDA = danger for all sick Americans.
No matter which approach you are doing, antibiotics only, mixed approach or alternative only.
I just see things from outside as I live in Europe, but it does make me laugh when I hear about Americans TRULY believing they live in a free country, with free speech and so on.
If you are not allowed to be healthy, if practioners are not allowed to practice in order to make sick patients healthier (just talk to ANY alternative practioner, even ILADS doctors, they DO practice in fear there), I wonder where this country will go.
You will soon not be ALLOWED to buy simple herbs, simple magnesium supplements, right?
No wonder LLMDs charge you all so much. The amount they charge looks UNBELIEVABLE seen from here. They risk their licenses, so you all have to pay for that risk. With you sick patients, they load their bank account NOW, as much as they can, JUST IN CASE their licenses will be taken away.
The prices such doctors charge looked shameful seen from here, but when I sense their fear, I somehow understand them.
Call that a free country!
The day you won't have more supplements available to you all, that drinking teas will be considered illegal like marihuana is, the day you won't have any more alternative practioners practicing,
the day all your children will have to be obliged to take dozens and dozens of useless vaccines for diseases that are not even dangerous, I guess, that's the day when you'll finally realize this was NOT a free country.
Note that the Bionic treatment as proposed in Germany, as it uses nosodes, is ILLEGAL in the US. The FDA can go after any practioner using it, in case they discover.
Nosodes as anti-infective agents are illegal to be used by practioners there, so you'll probably won't see any practioner publicly showing up saying they got a good tool against lyme.
There's no possibility then for the Bionic treatment to be widely used against lyme in the US then. The well off can come then to Germany to get treated AND import the machine, but what about all the other mortals?
Homeopathy as a whole was totally illegal in the US not too long ago.
Who loses with all that?
When a sick person is not ALLOWED to try to get healthy by the authorities of their country, by their organizations, their laws, that gets dangerous.
Talk to any practioner trying to think out of the box. ILADS practioners included! They live in constant fear!!
I guess the first step would be to get cured from the schizofrenic idea that the US is a free country.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Alv and Selma, sadly, you are so right that `freedom' here in the USA is little more than an illusion at this point in our history. We've demanded that our government fix more and more problems for us, and are surprised to discover that we've lost control over our own lives. You are right to laugh at us; we deserve it.
A few corrections, however.
So far, CODEX cannot be implemented here legally because of legislation that was passed back in the 1990's. (Unless there has been some new development I'm not aware of?) There is a lot of mis-information out there about CODEX. In any case, we are only safe for the moment, and especially now with the new administration amenable to `global authority'. (!!!) CODEX is a threat to most European countries, as well.
Homeopathy has never been `illegal' in the USA (to my knowledge). The method of restricting homeopathic practice - to the extent that it was nearly wiped out in the first half of the 20th century - was done in a more subtle, indirect fashion. Basically, all it took was money and power from the private sector.
The sale and use of nosodes is not `illegal' here; but it is restricted. Nosodes are `banned' from sale to the general public, but not to professional homeopaths. Purchase and use (and `prescribing') of nosodes can be done ONLY by certified homeopaths (and Naturopaths and sometimes chiropractors depending on the state). Therefore, homeopathic labs and distributors can only sell nosodes to qualified practitioners, but not to the general public.
It could be worse - we could be like France! It is my understanding that any homeopathic potencies above a 12C are illegal there, since potencies higher than that contain no molecules of `substance' and therefore are considered to be `fraudulent' medicines. France ignores its own laws, however, and 30C potencies are available but only for `chronic complaints'. In France, only MDs can practice medicine, including homeopathy, and violations can result in fines or jail time.
We haven't gotten to that point with homeopathy..... yet.
Back to the legality of certain `machines'.....
This is such a murky area but in my view, the only way European-made machines can be sold and used here is if they are marketed much in the same way as infrared devices, which can be used for muscular and connective tissue `therapy'. Without a lot of expensive trials and studies and `red tape', the FDA will not approve a machine as a `medical device'. No claims can be made for any device to `diagnose' or `cure' anything - that is the SOLE purview of the `medical' profession here in the USA!
So, maybe the Bionic or other devices should just be used to `reduce inflammation and pain in joints and muscles', and then it won't constitute a `threat' to our medical system.
Supporting Dr. K. is a great idea, BUT I think it would be best to wait to see what happens first. Testimonials that contain `too much information' could harm him more than help him. Let him tell US what we can do to help. For instance, he might want letters going to the FDA instead. At this point, we don't have enough information.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
I've discovered that there are a few practitioners using these photon and nosode type techniques in the US in a way that works well.
Problem is they have to be marketed, like you said, as pain reduction or meditation treatments in order to avoid scrutiny. As soon as you call it disease diagnosis or treatment, it is subject to FDA disapproval.
Actual nosodes are rarely used in this fashion, except as energy copies, or computer generated nosode type solutions that fall outside of strict homeopathy guidelines.
These folks stay a step ahead of the FDA, but practice state of the art techniques in a way that looks like quakery.
Most MD's won't risk their licences or their reputations to venture into the tried and true techniques being practiced in Europe. K being an exception.
Blame it on big pharma, if you like. Even if research was conducted on a specific out-of-the-box technique that saves lives, it would be quickly bought out or shut down by pharma. They have the money to do that.
Case in point, good research has been done on colloidal silver. Try to find it published, and instead you'll probably find a new wing or some lovely new equipment in the U that did the study.
I understand that Sanum US was bought out by a major corporation that also owns a pharma co. Wonder why they no longer sell the products that were working to counteract cancer? I don't. (You can still get this at Paracelcus, however.)
Ever wonder who funds quackwatch (some guy in PA who sits in front of his computer all day) to come up at the top of every natural health related Google search? I don't.
Follow the money to those who have the power.
Ever wonder who lobbies and funds the FDA and their decisions? I don't have the figures, but it doesn't take much imagination.
Kudo's to those of you who don't buy the propaganda against everything that threatens pharma, and have found some health through "alternative" means.
The word "alternative" itself is propaganda against anything that threatens profits.
If I have a traumatic accident or medical crisis, send me straight to the ER/ICU, and pump me full of whatever is recommended. The US has some of the best emergency medicine in the world.
If I have something chronic, well....I don't think I'll trust my life to those who have hundreds of thousands to make on my life alone by keeping me that way.
I'd like it if the Bionic/nosode treatments performed by Dr. W. came to the states to be practiced openly, but that's not going to happen unless the reigns come in on big pharma.
Instead what you WILL see is some US made photon machines, sometimes with energy copies or computer generated nosodes.
Anyway, aside from my rant, I'm glad we have found a range of techniques that really are working against lyme, and giving back health to those of us who have fought so hard for so long.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
'In ways too numerous to mention, regular physicians drove homeopaths out of the regular societies, persecuted them in the courts, and otherwise endeavoured to destroy homeopathy or at least to separate it from regular medicine.' [Rothstein, p.170]
'... homeopaths were banned from regular medical societies, denied hospital privileges at regular hospitals, excluded from boards of health, forbidden to serve on the faculties of regular medical schools and blacklisted from consultations or any professional association with regular physicans. Even their apprentices were denied certification of preceptorship at regular medical schools.' [Rothstein, p.233]
Excerpt from the book: Rothstein, William G, American Physicians in the 19th Century From Sects to Science, Johns Hopkins Univ. Press, Baltimore, USA, 1972
---
Sorry for my simplification, Tracy. Homeopathy was not illegal, you are right.
However, the effect looks almost as though it was 'illegal', if you read the 2nd paragraph above. It explains why it just disappeared there in the US in the 1920s or so, to my understanding ...
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
The situation in Europe is also bad... I commented about that before many times.
The ban on homeopathic substances is growing, every year, more and more products are being erased from our pharmacies. In Belgium and here in Switzerland, there's some resistance still, but until when? We are already losing the war, I feel.
What is a bit different here, is that I don't see people shouting in the streets they believe they live in a free society, free country or whatever similar. There's not such a 'unity' here...
This is what scares me in the US. There's a problem there with the self-image (discourse) and reality that don't match.
I think the difference is that few people here in Europe think we live in a perfect society, great society, or whatever. The self-image is not that positive, more to the contrary, I guess.
Many know we are in the hands of corporations, and we don't keep shouting 'we live in a free country', if you see what I mean.
I didn't mean to be mean when I said that I smile when I hear that 'free country' discourse. It's just that there's clearly an identity problem in the American society, I feel, and the 'free country' discourse is so disconnected from reality that people here can't avoid smiling. It's not only me.
-- I wonder about these machines that imprint frequencies as Bejoy is saying.
I guess that the FDA will not go after them UNLESS they prove to be efficient!
Sad story about Sanum... they do have a whole theory on how to provide anti cancer remedies ... -- I just found another article about DEATH of homeopathy, giving a very different version of history...
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Dear Friends,
The FDA is a major arm of Big Pharma. This is especially true in the area of psychotropic drugs. For example, the FDA panel is currently moving on a request to approve the long-lasting version of a drug which is under suit for horrendous adverse effects, with documents showing the research was rigged to increase customers [children!!]
The AMA has a loooonnnng history of suppressing innovations in medicine.
Check out the funding for the Journal of the American Medical Association (JAMA), just for starters!!
We are a corner of the larger fight, here!
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
Cass A
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11134
posted
Just another comment on the FDA--ELECTRIC SHOCK machines ( to mechanically induce seizures, and which are KNOWN to "work" by causing brain damage) are OK--even for use on people who don't consent.
Best,
Cass A
Posts: 1245 | From Thousand Oaks, CA | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Right, bejoy - and it does eventually go back to Big Pharma, even when it was Little Pharma. The John D. Rockefeller and Andrew Carnegie families were heavily invested in emerging drug companies back in the early 1900's, and thus the financial interests of those two powerful families dictated the ultimate course of American medicine. This manipulation of medicine was so effective and so complete, by the year 1949, few people in the USA had even heard of homeopathy.
Right, Selma. Though homeopathy was not illegal, it was made `impossible' by medical `associations and societies'. The effect was the same, either way.
***``This is what scares me in the US. There's a problem there with the self-image (discourse) and reality that don't match.''*** That is EXACTLY right, Selma. Well said. You are not being `mean'; you are being honest and objective.
I agree, Cass - the FDA is `bought and paid for' by the drug companies. And most of our elected `representatives' are bought and paid for by Big Pharma. And so it goes.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
I want to amend my rant by saying that I don't object to pharmacology for lyme or anything else. I just don't trust the delivery, as the motive behind it is usually somebody else's profit.
I notice that Bicillin is one of the more effective pharmaceutical treatments for lyme disease.
Over the past couple of years it has been difficult to get in quantity, and the price is astronomical, at about $500. a month, I think (don't know really, but many here have that figure.)
The same amount of the same medication for farm animals, produced by the same American company, is about $6. This I do know, since they sell it at the farm store, and I once did the full comparison.
It gives me the impression that somebody out there knows how much we need it, and they don't really want us to have much of the stuff that can halt a profitable chronic illness.
I think we Americans used to be proud of our "free country" but we had to wake up and smell the coffee under martial law of the Bush regime.
Many are hopeful that the Obama admin will turn things around for the better. Time will tell.
I used to have a fantasy about bringing the Bionic or something similar enough to Dr. W's treatments to the US, and doing research to make it a viable state of the art MEDICAL therapy. No longer.
As soon as it becomes "real" medicine in the US, it can be controlled or forbidden. Let it stay quackery for the time being, so we can maintain full access to it. I'm glad so many people have been able to travel to Germany.
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
I felt better as time went on. It wasn't like a herx can be where I felt significantly worse, I just felt bad (about 45% by the time I went) like I normally felt bad.
Dr. W takes credit cards and stocks Bionics.
I stopped abx a month before and antimalarials two weeks before. Dr. W told me two weeks, but I figured longer was better.
Bart and babs are not available in Europe. But, with being able to treat coinfections with blood, might not be necessary. If he is of the same opinion as when I was there, he thinks blood will take care of other infections. I know he's still learning on this, and people get frustrated that his recommendations change ... but that's just the way it is right now.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Andrew, I think some of your questions were asked here in this thread before. About nosodes, you won't find all tick coinfections here. So you could bring bartonella, mycoplasmas etc from the US (Desbio), I supppose?
the two I found were chlamydia pneumonia and rickettsia, but for all the rest, babesia, bartonella, mycoplasmas, I didn't find yet here.
as for bicilin, no idea.
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
I was hoping that anyone who has been to Germany for Bionic 880 treatment could now let us know how they are doing and what they did for follow up after leaving Germany as well. Did they do AI or what and what are they doing now.
IP: Logged |
posted
I have done a few rounds of Bionic and just ate healthy, did detox, in between rounds. I muscle tested as still being positive for babs, bart, parasites, and pyroluria.
Right now I am taking the pyroluria vitamins and minerals, which should boost my immune system so I can then treat parasites and the remaining two coinfections.
I still keep my blog up to date.
-------------------- sixgoofykids.blogspot.com Posts: 13449 | From Ohio | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
Thank you. I will keep following your blog and I am thankful for everyone blogging.
Does anyone know Steelbone's blog address? I forget what it is.
IP: Logged |
Paul how are you doing feeling and treating?
IP: Logged |
NanaDubo
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 14794
posted
lymeberry, I followed up my trip to Germany by having my amalgams and root canal teeth out.
I have been doing A I since January and other than using my sauna I am doing nothing else.
Posts: 1129 | From Maine | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
I went to Germany in February and am still treating back here in the states. I've done a total of 3 epstein barr treatments (which I cleared), 8 borrelia treatments, and 2 treatments using my blood. I will probably do another 5-7 treatments using my blood. So far, I have mixed feelings about whether or not the bionic is working for me. If I see improvements, they are VERY small. For a few weeks for so, I felt fairly good and thought I was moving right along with treatment well. Recently, in the past 1 1/2 weeks, I have gotten worse again. As bad as I was before going to Germany. So...not to be negative about the treatment, but so far, I'm not too impressed by what it has been able to do for me. Hopefully after more treatments, I'll see better results.
Posts: 215 | From Phoenix, AZ | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
rachellemarie--given the treatments for EBV immediately following, I'm curious.. do you have CFS symptoms?
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never went to Germany but have been having photon therapy with the Bionic in the UK, so I havent had the exact same treatment as with Dr W but the basic treatment has been the same.
Like you Rachellmarie I improved initially but then I went downhill again but I do have endocrine issues, metals and other infections including viruses (EBV too in my case and CMV plus maybe others) which have not all been treated yet.
I dont know if I'm still just processing toxins that need time to be eliminated...but also just recent testing with my practitioner shows that bartonella is one of my main problems still, and lyme is still there too..
I have recently been in contact with another practitioner in Germany who uses the Bionic and she told me that the body cannot make use of the photons if the adrenals are exhausted. She said that without that, the immunological resistance that is needed to make use of photon therapy will not be there and it is really important to address this. I dont know if that is Dr W's view too, I suspect he believes that ultimately the photons will sort everything out.
I dont know if this applies to anyone else but I suspect this might be the case with me.
[ 05-07-2009, 06:43 AM: Message edited by: shimmy ]
Posts: 85 | From UK | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged |
Brussels
Frequent Contributor (5K+ posts)
Member # 13480
posted
Great news, Tosho! Is he from Poland too??
Posts: 6199 | From Brussels | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymeberry
Unregistered
posted
Could anyone who has been treated in Germany in the last 2 to 4 months or so please let us know how you are doing and feeling and if the protocol in Germany has changed at all.
IP: Logged |
bejoy
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 11129
posted
A note of my experience with adrenal fatigue and biophoton and nosode therapy:
FYI, I do PE-1 at home with nosodes rather than Bionic, but the protocol is similar.
I don't think it would be working so well for me without strong adrenal support. My adrenals had crashed to the point of an Addison's diagnosis, previous to my lyme diagnosis.
I take Wilson protocol supplements and hydrocortisone, along with bioidentical hormones, all of which I increase as needed with a bad herx.
Too much or too little cortsol in the body equals a compromised immune system. You have to have about 40mg a day working in the body for effective immunity. Probably more when fighting infection, but I don't believe those studies have been done.
I was able to clear Lyme Burgdorferi, Lyme Garinii, Bartonella, TB, Mycosporidia, Strep Pneumonia, Klebsiella Pneumonia, and Viral Meningitis with nosodes and light.
EEEEWwww. I've never put all those in a list before.
I'd suggest that people with hormone and adrenal insufficiency look seriously at bioidentical hormone replacement including hydrocortisone. I don't think I could have gotten well without it!
Keep in mind that Adrenal crash comes after a period of Adrenal High, when you can't sleep and have lots of anxiety.
There is not supposed to be a "cure" for Addisons, but I'm down from 35 mg a day of hydrocortisone to 10, and counting.
I think you have to support the adrenals like crazy, then treat the pathogens, then later you can just naturally get off the adrenal support.
That has been my experience. I'm currently successfully treating a reocurrence of Babesia, and also assorted fungals. For me, energy goes up and need for hormone replacement goes down with regular light and nosode therapy.
I also make sure to light the adrenals with each light treatment. My adrenals get stressed from dealing with infection, but my adrenals, kidneys also tend to harbor infection because that whole system has been weakened.
I light the other organs too, that may be harboring infection, based on energy testing.
Good luck with your therapies!
-------------------- bejoy!
"Do not go where the path may lead; go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." -Ralph Waldo Emerson Posts: 1918 | From Alive and Well! | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Bejoy - You are amazing and so helpful to us all. Glad the PE-1 works for you.
I've cleared only borrelia so far using the Bionic 880. I was treated in Germany - Dr. W - during Feb. 2009. I have been tested several times and still NO borrelia can be found.
I am now attempting to clear more, but have hit a road block, so will read up on Klinghardt's KPU/HPU treatment protocol.
I know I need to detox heavy metals first, or around the same time.
Energy testing has really helped me.
Bejoy - I don't have the funds anymore for lots of testing. How can you tell when you have cleared other infections? Energetically?
posted
How do you use the lightworks with nosodes to clear these infections??
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Dr. W. told me the spirochetes are still there once you have treated 5 or 6 times and have lightened your Lyme load and get the green light to wait a month before treating again.
The spirochetes are just sort of deactivated or something by the frequencies so they will not bother the patient unless one gets stressed out and then they will make one sick again.
He said if that happens then one needs to treat again two times. I think if people keep using the phrase cleared people get the wrong impression that the Bionic 880 treatment is a "Cure". It is not a cure exactly yet can be very very helpful for getting well or at least in my opinion.
I think deactivated or another term is more fitting then "Cleared lyme".
Posts: 42 | From the woods | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
People need to stop conceiving of photon therapy as some kind of rifle that blasts spirochetes to bits. Healthy people are walking around with viruses/bacteria/fungi every day of their waking healthy lives, but they're not ill. It's not because somehow they were lucky enough to escape getting bitten by ticks. The idea that chronic lyme is more pandemic to areas that are more infested with ticks than areas that are less infested but infested nonetheless is just plain nonsense.
Many scientists have shown that pathogens become pathogenic because of the environment they're in and overall body burden (toxins, emotional disturbances, metals, nutritional deficiencies, vicious fight-or-flight cycles), NOT because of variance in occurrence of bugs between controls and chronically-ill patients.
Photon therapy, homeopathics, other information-based therapy aids the immune system and shifts the cellular environment by providing correct information at the same time. The immune system attacking lyme is only one step. Following steps of getting our immune system more active in some ways (more TH1-dominant) and less reactive in other ways (sensitivity to allergens or benign cells--autoimmunity), as well as restoring proper cellular environment with other measures like pH balance, oxidation, hormonal support, proper nutrition, avoiding food allergies is all necessary to allow our body to keep bugs in control. The photons can be used to do much of this. I do believe the photon machine can become a jack of all trades when used properly and carefully with diligent energetic testing, but it will not eradicate the existence of lyme or any other bug for that matter.
If you want to utterly destroy bugs, you may want to explore an option like Rife, and even that is debatable. In my case, I don't feel it is necessary to kill, just restore natural order, in order to recover 100%.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
What about using rife AND bionic 880, as safe intervals? Anyone thought of this or tried this?
Mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
I actually agree with you... just wish my frigin body and BRAIN would hop on board
I basically do ALL of the things you mentined yet I am still no better ...
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Thanks for the links to the new blogs, n.northern.... though I don't know who 'troutfarm' and 'surfbabe' are.... maybe I missed something.
Unexpected, I'm confused. Your blog says that you are much improved from where you were a few months ago, that your LLMD even commented on it. Yet you say here you are no better..... maybe you could clarify for me.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Yeah... that was the PA who was very pregnant with triplets and would have prescribed dog POO to me ..... I was seeing improvemnts.. they were subtle... but for me a miracle.. they were very short lasting.. I am back to seriously ill, copletely bedridden and unable to walk on my own...
I again can no longer cook for myself, get up to get myself a drink.. etc... This is how I have been since the ONSET of my ilness... I had a few months of improvements.. but were lost.. so I am back to where I started and was for the majority of the 2 years I have been sick...
I have been to the ER 3x's since april.. I am very ill....
My blog was started because I was trying to use positive intention to heal... stupid me.. so I was trying to out out to the universe that i was BETTER and HEALED.. even though that was FAR from the truth...
I hope that makes sense and clairifes for you... at my last llmd appt. on July 1st.. I was so ill, I could not hold my head up, speak, or walk.. had to use a wheel chair.. my LLMD was very concerned.
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
I know some people that have done this. I just don't know if it's necessary for me. Psychologically it pretty much means you're declaring warfare on bugs, and if you agree with the gist of my post above, that is a risky mentality to have. Reiterate: return them to non-pathogenic form. That may be all that we need to do. Plus by investing so much time, "herxing" energy, and finances into killing bugs, it's easy to lose focus of the other things we need to do like resolve emotional disturbances and detoxify. That's pretty much all I've got left to do now, but it's still a full-time job.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
Considering the state you're in now, I can see why you're anxious to jump on board multiple things, thinking they'll have a cumulative effect. When other patients that I respected were adding rife to Bionic, I was also tempted to do the same. But then I realized...the ones that seem to handle the cumulative effects well are way way better off than I am. They seemed to using the rife more for cleanup of remaining risk factors, but were more or less doing pretty well.
Every little therapy that we add to our arsenal adds to the overall toxicity level in our bodies in a cumulative way. However, our detoxification organs don't amplify in their capabilities to match. Most of us in very sick states just think of the action not the reaction (natural human tendency to destroy by destroying, not render harmless by being in harmony), which is usually a toxic backup at the excretory level--which will then lead to recirculation and herxing that doesn't seem to wear off for long periods of time.
Cliche but true: it's a marathon, not a sprint. Wait and see just how much you can do with the Bionic. Trust me, the only concern with the Bionic but seasoned (which is a relative term) users is that it's TOO powerful, not the opposite.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
-------------------- "You'll be surprised to know how far you can go from the point you thought it was the end" Posts: 946 | From Massachusetts | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
Hey UnexpectedIlls, I'm so sorry to read your post. Did you say you did the bionic 880?
My heart breaks to hear of your condition. It's just awful this horrible disease.
m0joey......you speak many wisdoms! And I'm slowly catching on. Bionic is incredibly powerful. Would never have believed that one month ago when my husband and I joked about snake oil!!!!
OMG!!!!
Mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
Bamboo Forest....I can't wrap my brain around this.....if I am "clearing" or "deactivating" this bug....how can it be "activated" again. Does it go into a cyst with bionic and then open up again with stress? Has anyone viewed blood smears following bionic treatment?
Has anyone tried antibiotics after feeling great with bionic to see if he or she had a "herx?"
In other words, have any of these things been done to DEFINE what "clearing" or "deactivating" means?
I'm just curious.
I don't care so much about HOW this makes me feel better, as long as it does.....BUT
I wonder where all these terms are coming from.
Mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
I read that some doctors investigating the bionic reported that the CD-57 count goes up. And Joey watched the white blood cells devouring spiroketes in the microscope during treatment.
Sounds like the bionic restores the immune system, thus keeping the bugs in check. (like it is in people who feel well and do not have lyme symptoms) Any killing is done by the immune system like it usually does, or should do.....
Posts: 366 | From Europe | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many things can reactivate bugs: stress, nutritional deficiencies, other hormonal balances, emotional or physical trauma, cellular hypoxia, or even a severe infection. But most infections themselves are severe enough to cause a relapse.
Most of the other factors I listed turn the body into fight or flight state, which increases adrenaline, takes away blood from the gut (where both immune and brain functions are heavily tied), and into the extremities. Rife also showed adrenaline to change bugs from benign/latent forms into pathogenic forms. Bruce Lipton also talks about adrenaline as a result of chronic stress in our society that is the first step to chronic illness.
Cellular hypoxia is a little more complicated, but may become resolved upon detoxification of metals and toxins. I am using ozone to help with this, but the Bionic (based on energetic testing) still seems to be the preferred way of shuttling them out. The ozone seems to release toxins by oxygenating cells and restoring cellular function.
n.northernlights: worth mentioning that although my white blood cells were working on the spirochetes, they were also shown to disintegrate very rapidly, which the doctor said was a sign of anaerobic metabolism (cellular hypoxia). This was further evidence that I needed to drastically change my metabolic makeup by restoring natural function before I could hope to rely on one machine to do all the killing.
I wanted to add: it seems that the therapy will work faster if you don't deal with any chronic fatigue.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
"I wanted to add: it seems that the therapy will work faster if you don't deal with any chronic fatigue."
Above from m0joey.
So, does this mean I should stop making myself take care of my household duties and go to bed?
mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
YES!!!! Tell your kids and husband they need to cover for you now so you can get better and it will be well worth their while in a few weeks. You need to be happy relaxed and not over worked and go spend half a day at you favorite mineral pool detoxing and de-stressing and relaxing. That is my recovery secret and Rx.
While you are floating around the pool visualize a new healthy life for yourself. Even hire a cleaning person/assistant for a few days a week while you do the protocol and get your healthy life back. It will be worth it.
Posts: 42 | From the woods | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
posted
I don't mean if you make yourself fatigued. (although you're always better off if you conserve your energy for healing purposes). I mean if you have chronic fatigue syndrome symptoms. Exercise intolerance, orthostatic intolerance, consistent shortness of breath, postexertional malaise.
Posts: 713 | From Los Angeles | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged |
Long time no posting. I am the one who went to see DrW but ran into trouble with accomodation and had to leave after only 2 treatments as the situation I was in was stressing me too much.
Well one year later and I have not had any other treatments. In fact I moved to Germany and coping with that has taken all of my energy.
I think I am a lot worse now as the pain and weakness in my right wrist has spread to the right, and my adrenal glands are further shot.
My wrist problem has made me look for help again - I lost all motivation to get well after the episode in Pforzheim. I was just going to wait to die. But now I am robbed of the only usable hand I have.
The thing that is concerning me about going on hydrocortisone is that I have heard that it is contra-indicated in Lymes. Is this so?
Mati
Posts: 148 | From europe | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
dear Mati, I have been on thyroid forums for years, and if you have addison, or weak adrenals, you really need supplementation. That is something totally different from the typical high-dose steroid treatments used to knock down symptoms of rheumatism or life-threatening allergies or whatever.
Physiological supplementation or replacement with hydrocortisone does no harm. The typical dose is from 15-45 mg hydrocortisone.
I had some symptoms of low cortisol, ans used a little bit of supplementation, but the need disappeared after I went gluten-free, and started LDN. I sometimes use a tad of hydrocortisone cream on the arm or the like when I need some supllementation (usually only after getting glutened)
There are even books about physiological supplementation with hydrocortisone, like Safe Uses of Cortisone (available from the publisher). Good arenal function (or the right dose of supplementation) is neccessary for the immune system to work.
Are you gluten-free yet? If you want to try, you can get over-the counter hydrocortisone cream. You can do the math of how much there is in 1 gr of cream from the description on the tube. It has to be taken every four hours so you have to work out the amount for the day.
By the way, Dr. Woitzel was looking for you all over the place back then. Maybe you should just contact him.
Posts: 366 | From Europe | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
I had already told Dr W about the problems I was having and that the person who had brought me down to see him had gone back to where he came from to fix his van so I was left alone and too sick to shop and stuck in a hotel so I could not cook. I e-mailed Dr W to tell him what had happened and that I was having to leave. If he had checked his e-mail he would have known.
I will send off the test for adrenals that I sent for from a uk lab. I came to Germany due to my extreme muliple chemical sensitivity as they accept it as a condition. In the UK they do not and having no family to advocate I was concerned about this - ie being foprced to have emergency treatment. Now I have to leave Germany as the insurance law changed and I cannot get health insurance.
I have been GF before going to see the doc. Since then lost all motivation to do anything. I would like to try the creme but probably will not get it in Germany otc. I will see if I can order it online from the uk. Thanks for that advice.
Posts: 148 | From europe | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
repeated post removed
Posts: 148 | From europe | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Hi, mati - I'm glad you `checked in'. I've wondered what happened to you! You had an awful ordeal and I was in hopes that you could get Bionic treatment at some later time...... Very sorry you are still doing poorly.
Unexpected, thanks much for the clarification. I'm sorry your improvements were not more permanent and that you have such severe issues.
I get the impression that you blame every practitioner or treatment that didn't get you well. I think you've used the term `ripped off' in other posts.
I hope at some point you'll understand that this isn't a fair assessment. (I'm sure your bank account thinks so, though.) But in the Lyme game, if something doesn't work, it's often because it hasn't addressed one or more serious underlying problems that are specific to YOUR personal case of Lyme & Co. That's not necessarily anybody's fault.
I think Joey has hit it on the mark. It's about `pathogenicity' of any organism as it applies to each individual person, not simply its presence in the person's system.
`pathogenic' definition: capable of causing disease
`non-pathogenic': incapable of causing disease
Biophotons and homeopathics are very similar in nature, which is probably why they can work well together - a synergistic effect. I'm not sure how photons work but homeopathics work on the PERSON, thus altering errors in the milieu (body terrain) that allowed the microbes to thrive as `pathogenic' organisms in the first place.
And as Joey explained so well, work on correcting those errors in the system will basically `pull the rug out' from under microorganisms that have the potential to become `pathogenic'.
Well, I'll quit here.......
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
lymewreck36
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 4395
posted
Hi Mati:
I have not conversed with you before, but I have to say that one can never give up, especially after one bad experience.
I have been misdiagnosed....accused of making up symptoms, discounted, given pills that damage me, neglected, told my problems are becuase of my weight (Had a torn miniscus disk and the doctor would not even examine me. He ASSUMED my weight gave me sore knees), told to bring my husband to m y appointments from now on.....
The list goes on and on...
But only I can decide if I quit or not. No one else. That is in my control.
Think about it.
Mary
Posts: 1032 | From North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2003
| IP: Logged |
posted
mati, yes, I remenber you mentioning your allergies and extreme sensitivities. I understand (or try to) that circumstances were and are difficult.
There is some info on weak adrenals on some thyroid forums and websites, I think on the stop the thyroid madness website too. They also know about tests and that they only show up positive when you are almost dead....you might be lucky and the test is positive. That might entitle you to treatment in the UK (maybe-maybe not). The forums should know more. I thought hydrocortisone cream was otc most places. I had only one test showing low cortisol. The best test is the saliva test as it tests for free cortisol.
And, maybe trying the AI drops first will help with your allergies and extreme sensitivities. There is an AI thread here. Just thinking. And when you are back in the UK you can order naltrexone for LDN online if you want to. Helps with lots of things and immune system and even depressions if you have any.
nora
Posts: 366 | From Europe | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged |
posted
Mati there is some healthcare person treating patients with the Bionic 880 in the UK. I don't know where but someone here I am sure well if you would ever like to try the treatment again.
Posts: 42 | From the woods | Registered: Jul 2009
| IP: Logged |
'I get the impression that you blame every practitioner or treatment that didn't get you well. I think you've used the term `ripped off' in other posts.'
Well thanks for that vote of confidence. It just so happens that the private practitioners I saw, left me with the impression that they were mostly interested in getting my money than actually taking time to try to understand my health problems. I guess I was just unlucky as I am sure that here are many good guys out there. No I do not expect anyone to be able to work a miracle, but I did expect a doctor to know what he was dealing with, in his own speciality or to tell me it was beyond his skills if he did not understand the relationship betwen different illnesses. My last consultation was even worse than I imagined, when I hear that there should have been preparitory work done first and the money I spent wasted regardless of the outcome that did ensure. Heaven forbid that one should be critical of doctors it seems. If they make a mistake or cause their patients extra stress, I would expect a good guy to make ammends to them, especially with the fees they claim. But it seems that the patient is always wrong and the gods untouchable. It makes me wonder when the outcome from seeing a medic depends on how much absolute faith we put in them. I would rather keep my money than pay for the placeabo effect.
Mary thanks, I have been sick for along time - most of my life (Lyme for 10 years undiagnosed)being hypothyroid from childhood. I have worked for many years to improve my health and have been on every conceivable diet and taken barrel loads of supplements. I don't actually know if it is possible to do much I am so damaged but I am going to try to treat my thyroid and adrenals now. I already had them tested over a year ago and they were right down.
Thanks nora and bf but |I am no longer in the UK, I am in Germany and having to move probably to Greece in the coming year. I can have more 800 treatment in Berlin, but after reading that some get worse I am not sure whether to do it. If others have gotten worse then it is pretty risky for me due to the number of health problems I have.
But thank so much you guys for replying and making me feel less isolated.
Posts: 148 | From europe | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged |
Truthfinder
Frequent Contributor (1K+ posts)
Member # 8512
posted
Uh, very sorry, Mati. I was addressing UnexpectedIlls, not you. I think all of us have had our run-ins with practitioners like you described, though - no question. I didn't mean to imply that it rarely happens.
But I've also seen a number of practitioners of all kinds who just couldn't get the kind of results with me that they hoped or expected. Some helped a little, and some helped for awhile, and I was able to stay working a lot longer than if I hadn't had some of these people helping me.
I guess I hate to see anyone feel cheated at every turn. This is a difficult disease; if it were easily treated, we wouldn't be on this forum.
-------------------- Tracy .... Prayers for the Lyme Community - every day at 6 p.m. Pacific Time and 9 p.m. Eastern Time � just take a few moments to say a prayer wherever you are�. Posts: 2966 | From Colorado | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged |
The Lyme Disease Network is a non-profit organization funded by individual donations. If you would like to support the Network and the LymeNet system of Web services, please send your donations to:
The
Lyme Disease Network of New Jersey 907 Pebble Creek Court,
Pennington,
NJ08534USA http://www.lymenet.org/
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Wink]](wink.gif)
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Printer-friendly view of this topic